Apple and Foxconn broke a Chinese labor law to build the latest iPhones

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-09/apple-foxconn-broke-a-chinese-labor-law-for-iphone-production

by freewizard • 7 years ago

210 140 7 years ago

lota-putty• 7 years ago

Pretty much highlighting slavery outsourced. We all hate to fill those workers' shoes, but love the fruits of their hard labour.

OT: American Factory (2019) documentary was a good watch too.

Edit: Vote with your wallet in capitalism; what goes around comes around to bite ...

kinkrtyavimoodh• 7 years ago

What's worse is it's not like that the fruits of their hard labor would be more expensive if they were treated better.

Companies like Apple would just need to cut into their ginormous profit margins instead of being able to sit on literally (edit: hundreds of) billions of dollars in cash.

paggle• 7 years ago

“Literally billions” is a severe understatement, it’s $245 billion.

ajmurmann2• 7 years ago

I wonder if the additional cost would even be significant to pay workers better and provide reasonable work hours. How much total, time is spent by actual people working on each iPhone in these factories? Is that even a full hour? I understand the hourly rate is less than $10. So how much difference could paying them well possibly make?

The issue on the article seems to be about too many contact workers during rush time which honestly seems reasonable if not inevitable.

rsa4046• 7 years ago

Relevant to that, there's a good talk by Herman Mark Schwartz [0], in which he reports that total offshore holdings of top 15 US firms exceeds $1 T (more than Obama's ARRA stimulus of $830 B). Excludes onshore cash, and Apple's is a significant fraction of this pile. He argues that monopoly IP rights (originally public goods) held by cash-rich firms leads to lack of real investment.

[0] Wealth and Secular Stagnation: The Role of Industrial Organization and Intellectual Property Rights. https://t.co/ZQ5RgHGdFo

MichailP2• 7 years ago

I wonder how rich people even come up with the idea that they are above normal human beings. The idea feels completely unnatural to me, and I strongly believe that one would have to be educated into the idea. Something like school for racists or upbringing for racists. Racist is not the right word but it is the closest matching the description I can think of.

chillacy2• 7 years ago

A lot of research seems to indicate that this is a curious facet of biology: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/power-c...

Anecdotally people with power have been doing terrible things for probably most of human history.

popularwarfare• 7 years ago

Why do you think they're called elites?

konart• 7 years ago

The idea feels completely unnatural to me

The idea of skydiving feels completely unnatural to me.

But like with many other things - this is mostly because I haven't been there even once.

doyoulikeworms• 7 years ago

What does that even mean?

C1sc0cat4• 7 years ago

"some" rich people please.

lotsofpulp2• 7 years ago

Have you considered that a society with hierarchy provides some advantage that creates an evolutionary equilibrium? It’s seen in many, many species of animals, especially mammals and primates.

Nasrudith• 7 years ago

It sadly seems to be a social norm to the point where others /not benefitting/ in any way expect it and hold others to a lower standard.

I suspect it is because speaking out against abuse of power would have historically gotten you and possibly your family executed.

mensetmanusman• 7 years ago

Lots of research has shown connections between power and judgement.

I.e. power corrupts, because when you gain power, you judge more harshly those with less of it.

Humans have a lot of natural tendencies that are counterproductive to a peaceful society.

ninth_ant• 7 years ago

Humans have an incredible capacity for rationalizing that which benefits them. There is no special upbringing or education needed, it’s been happening since the dawn of time.

LanceH• 7 years ago

Here you are commenting on how you are better than rich people. Did you go to school to be educated into this idea or did it come naturally?

MichailP2• 7 years ago

Actually I was going for equality. Not equality of outcome, but equality of basic human rights. Let's take a recent example. Nobody deserves to be a sex slave trapped in an Epstein's island. Wouldn't you agree? But yet a bunch of rich people thought it was fine. As long as it is not their daughter. I would argue this is not natural and initial human instinct. You would have to corrupt your sense of meaning pretty badly to come to this point. Like take some lessons in lack of empathy and sadism. And please don't try to draw fake symmetry between me and people like this.

jjtheblunt2• 7 years ago

I bet the answer is delusion. Maybe it arises from insecurity?

vezycash3• 7 years ago

The labor law in question is having more temporary workers than the law allows. I don't see much issue with this because the article highlights the cause - seasonal fluctuations.

If they overhire, the excess staff would be stuck with nothing to do. And consider the negative press any time companies announce layoffs.

Excess staff aren't like machines you can just turn off and turn back on during peak seasons. Can't just create an API and invent AWS with them.

There are some companies that don't fire excess staff during slow periods. Staff come in half the month for half pay. And then when things pick up, back to normal. I don't know how they'll handle health benefits though.

ajmurmann2• 7 years ago

I don't know how they'll handle health benefits though.

Are health benefits in China provided by employers? I always understood that (anti) pattern to be mostly unique to the US, due to salary caps during WWII.

vezycash3• 7 years ago

Are health benefits in China provided by employers?

I got this from the article. It's not a clear answer though

Dispatch workers don’t receive benefits that full-time employees get, such as paid sick leave, paid vacations and social insurance, which provides medical, unemployment and pension coverage, according to CLW.

Base wages CAN be higher for dispatch workers, and are paid by third-party firms on a short-term basis and are not employed directly by Foxconn

Social insurance is the keyword there. Might be an amount paid by company on behalf of the employee. Looks like a 401k-ish scheme.

mlindner• 7 years ago

China doesn't have rule of law in general, so any answer you get will always be qualified as things vary drastically.

ailideex2• 7 years ago

South African expat in Norway here. In South Africa health care is technically provided by state but if you don't want to die or lose a limb when you go in for something minor you need private insurance which is normally provided by employer.

In Norway my employer also providers supplemental insurance that provides lower wait times.

So no, not unique to US really. What countries have you lived in?

seanmcdirmid2• 7 years ago

China has something approaching universal healthcare, so those are already covered by payroll taxes. Employers can provide benefits above that, which is often necessary since Chinese health benefits aren’t that great (they are capped rather than having a deductible), however I doubt factory workers would get much extra.

earenndil• 7 years ago

Can't just create an API and invent AWS with them.

Actually...

That sounds surprisingly doable.

wongarsu• 7 years ago

And that's how the temp agency was invented

ClumsyPilot2• 7 years ago

I don't see much issue with this

It's not your judgement to make - there is already a law. Besides, it's the job of the management to deal with ups and downs of supply and stocks. They are equipped to deal with it. Why should it fall on the shoulders of the worker? They have families to feed.

With this endless watering down of all worker protection, we will soon be bringing Victorian workhouses.

vezycash3• 7 years ago

It's not your judgement to make

You'd be right if I'd said, "This is no issue. Or there's nothing wrong with it."

I prefaced the statement with, "I Don't see..." In other words, it's my own opinion on the matter - not a blanket statement on behalf of everyone, just mine.

I want to believe you'd have come to the same, on your own when well rested.

kalleboo2• 7 years ago

Although the article also said 20% of the workforce was college students who had to go back to school anyway - that sounds like a win-win situation

chillacy2• 7 years ago

A more accurate title is: suppliers break chinese labor law and apple's internal standards in order to meet deadlines.

Apple does occasional audits, but what more can you do when the people you audit lie to you because they _want_ to work?

While overtime is allegedly often required, most workers want to work overtime to make more money, according to an anonymous diary written by a CLW investigator in the factory.

Hokusai2• 7 years ago

"It all centers on Zhengzhou, a city of six million people in an impoverished region of China. Running at full tilt, the factory here, owned and operated by Apple’s manufacturing partner Foxconn, can produce 500,000 iPhones a day. Locals now refer to Zhengzhou as “iPhone City.” ... Foxconn is Apple’s largest supplier. Apple is Foxconn’s largest customer." https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/technology/apple-iphone-c...

While overtime is allegedly often required, most workers want to work overtime to make more money, according to an anonymous diary written by a CLW investigator in the factory.

So it is ok to force me to do overtime if my colleagues want to stay? Does not matter if I am overstressed, have children or any other circumstance?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/07/suicide-chinese-...

ms4720• 7 years ago

In China yes it is, it is against the law to do it and China is not a place where rule of law exists

nihonde3• 7 years ago

They want the overtime because they have families. These are often itinerant workers who want to come to a factory, work hard for a while, send their wages back to their home town, and then return. There are many who resent efforts to “save” them.

pierrebai• 7 years ago

I was surprised by the figure of 500K iPhone per day... then I checked total sales per year. In 2018 [1], Apple sold 217M iPhone. So even 500K is a low estimate, as that would not be enough production (0.5M * 365 < 217M...) So the figure is closer to 600K iPhones per day, or almopst 7 phones per second, all year round.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-ipho...

cwyers2• 7 years ago

Apple can do math. Apple can look at what they're getting and what they're paying for it and run the figures and see what that comes to in terms of pay for hours worked. At a certain point, asking for X and putting down rules that make X impossible or highly improbable isn't getting conned, it's trying to get to plausible deniability.

SpicyLemonZest• 7 years ago

The complaints here don't seem to be that the workers were underpaid for hours worked. It's hard to imagine what kind of math could let Apple look at "what they're getting and what they're paying for it" and deduce the amount of overtime or percentage of temps.

therein• 7 years ago

That'll just have Foxconn now begin to "overcharge" Apple and keep the difference to themselves. None will reach to the employees.

lunchables• 7 years ago

Wouldn't it be the opposite? They overpaid because these people were working all of this overtime?

at-fates-hands• 7 years ago

This is exactly why Steve Jobs hired Tim Cook.

His whole job was to lean on suppliers and get them to do the most work for the least amount of pay. He basically trimmed all the fat from their Chinese suppliers, streamlined their production and essentially blackmailed suppliers to meet their insane production quotas and deadlines.

I'm never surprised when I hear this stuff now considering it was Cook who started all of this and now he's the guy running the company.

sschueller• 7 years ago

Apple does a lot more than occasional audits. If they didn't the next iPhone would be posted all over blogs and twitter. Yet they are able to keep quite a tight grip and leaks. This only works if you have control of the entire chain.

M4v3R• 7 years ago

It was, we know basically everything there is to know about the next iPhones for quite a while.

gruez2• 7 years ago

Wasn't the exterior design of the next iPhone leaked months ago?

carlob• 7 years ago

Which is one of many reasons to outsource, so you can't be held accountable...

Fnoord2• 7 years ago

A more accurate title is: suppliers break chinese labor law and apple's internal standards in order to meet deadlines.

Ah yes, of course Apple is not to blame here...

Apple going in bed with Foxconn is their choice. Apple can opt for a more fair supplier who pays their employees fair wage, and give them more fair rights (not up to Western standards but nonetheless a substantional improvement). If a small company like Fairphone can do it [1], so can Apple.

[1] https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/social-work-values/

jpttsn• 7 years ago

Many things are harder, not easier, for large companies than for small.

C1sc0cat4• 7 years ago

For those that haven't worked in a more traditional engineering /factory setting.

This "overtime is where workers make extra $" is the rule in the west as well.

otikik• 7 years ago

they lie to you because they _want_ to work?

They lie to you because they _want to exploit their workers_, which is exactly why the audits were in place.

nurettin• 7 years ago

Nobody is surprised about Foxconn breaking any kind of law. I worked with them directly at a customs agency's software department. During our 6 month integration project, Foxconn caused the resignation of one senior developer and one software specialist. They basically wanted to use our systems to store their private data and gradually demanded that we act like their entire ERP "OR NO DEAL". We ended up finally standing our ground and only did customs integrations and they built an actual IT team instead of using us as their own IT team.

simonh4• 7 years ago

It's not just Foxconn, I have friends in China that work with Chinese tech companies and they're pretty much all the same. They'll squeeze every last inch of advantage they can get out of any business deal and push things right up to, or beyond the brink of a breakdown in relations. It's utterly cutthroat.

I have family over there as well, my wife is Chinese, but those connections are up north. She has an uncle who was a mining company executive, I can't talk about him it's too dangerous. Really.

joosters• 7 years ago

She has an uncle who was a mining company executive, I can't talk about him it's too dangerous. Really.

Then why talk about him?

blarg1• 7 years ago

Here in Australia I've heard people complain about selling houses to the Chinese (I believe mainlanders), where they would buy the property but before handing over the money they would drag their feet and demand repairs, additions etc to the house.

Most people would give in since they would be in the middle of purchasing a new house and needed the money right then, and going through court or whatever would take too long.

cowfart• 7 years ago

You realize that Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, right? In fact, the owner/ founder is currently running for president in Taiwan...

navigatesol• 7 years ago

Nobody is surprised about Foxconn breaking any kind of law.

I don't think anyone is surprised about Apple breaking labour laws, either.

notimetorelax• 7 years ago

FWIW I heard that Apple FTEs are also expected to be reachable all kinds of hours. Those who try to have some sense of life outside work get dinged in ratings. If this is how Apple treats its employees why would they care about some overtime at Foxconn?

TomMarius2• 7 years ago

Doesn't sound like breaking laws if you agreed

alexis_fr• 7 years ago

Does that mean Apple is building an exceptionally high number of devices for the Sept 10 keynote, anticipating high demand?

paul79864• 7 years ago

Not sure why these phones are still large phones without Touch ID.

I hear they will releasing a new iPhone SE the size of an iPhone 8 in April that I'm interested in. Though probably no Touch ID in that which stinks.

Touch ID is a way better UX ..grab phone with thumb and boom phone is open. One quick/seamless step vs. Face ID...grab phone, look at it and swipe up. Three steps vs. one ..no thanks Apple! Bad UX ..making the user do more then before!

aloer• 7 years ago

Not sure why these phones are still large phones without Touch ID

Because people like them and people pay for them?

Your opinion of preference for TouchID seems to not be shared by the majority who prefers FaceID. it just works

CaptainMarvel• 7 years ago

Well, generally, when you grab your phone, you’re going to be looking at it anyway...

simonh4• 7 years ago

As you say, your thumb is on the front of the phone already. You just slide it up on the screen as you look at it. So it's just a change from holding the thump on one particular spot, to sliding it up a little anywhere.

But some people find it easier to swipe up with another finger and not have to hold their thumb anywhere in particular at all. That's fine too.

epanchin• 7 years ago

I use both an XR and 7 daily. I have no desire for Touch ID on my XR, it is much simpler than the 7.

It’s not just the unlocking, it’s the ease of entering saved passwords and logging into apps.

Also, you’ve counted grab phone as a step in one of your examples not the other, really it’s 1 step vs 1.

The only downside of Face ID is, I can’t easily unlock my phone when it’s flat on my desk.

kalleboo2• 7 years ago

Touch ID never worked well for me, Face ID is way better. I keep getting confused on my Mac when things don't magically unlock like they do on the phone and then I have to remember I have to hit the Touch ID sensor.

And rumors are the new phones will have a wider-angle lens and IR projector to make it work better at more awkward angles (e.g. on a table)

doe88• 7 years ago

Strangely I think this is the rare case where public's goal is more aligned with Apple's goal than one might think: no more labour violations, no more headlines. But... be careful what you wish for. Robots. When all iPhones are assembled by robots there will not be any labour violations anymore. But exactly what problem will we have solved in the end?

quickthrower2• 7 years ago

But exactly what problem will we have solved in the end?

I see what you are saying but sooner or later robots will be used. If you don't agree that they should be used if they are more efficient, then by the same token we shouldn't use computers when it's putting people holding calculators out of work.

birdyrooster2• 7 years ago

Have you considered the ethical concerns regarding allowing humans to work doing menial tasks which can be automated to the scale you are saying?

Are you convinced that no other work would become available for these people that would justify their cessation of manual labor?

moksly• 7 years ago

You should be careful about how you distribute the benefits of you automation, not the automation itself.

I know America is really bad at redistributing wealth, but society doesn’t actually have to be that way.

merpnderp• 7 years ago

Inequality is measured by the Gini coefficient, and the US isn’t that bad.

imtringued• 7 years ago

Societies with robots tend to be wealthier than those without. The big problem with robots is wealth inequality.

tkubacki• 7 years ago

I know it's not Apple itself but their (biggest ?) supplier, but isn't that the 'Apple DNA' to don't give a f* for their employees? Anyone here with experience working in multiple big tech companies (including Apple) to compare ?

powerapple2• 7 years ago

I have to say that let the market play out the rules. When people don't want to work overtime, they can leave the job to those who need to work overtime, and once those people who need to work overtime finally at a stage that he doesn't need to work overtime, the job will either increase its standard or go to another place where people need these jobs.

ClumsyPilot2• 7 years ago

We should have let the market sold out child labour too. Why have laws at all?

powerapple2• 7 years ago

Actually, I think so. poverty is a problem should be solved, not child labour. If there is a place where children has to work, children has to work. They will need money to survive, or have something for their future generation. And yes, their lives are fked, not because there is not law for that, it is because of poverty. If all standards are the same across the globe, does developing world stand any chance of stealing those unwanted jobs and make their life better?

Many young people in China don't want to work overtime, and many do not work in factories, and many demand higher salary, that's how jobs are shifting to Vietnam, Africa and so on. Things will just work out.

IlegCowcat• 7 years ago

You know it has to be pretty damn bad if they're breaking chinese labor laws...

lenkite• 7 years ago

Until fines of 10+ billion dollars are enforced on violating companies along with multi-month jail-time for executives, nothing will change.

The use of dispatch workers doesn't happen by magic. It had to be an explicit decision by senior executives. It required several executives in Foxconn to knowingly and deliberately break labour laws and Apple to close their eyes and look the other way.

butuzov• 7 years ago

Just some of the other violations...

- During peak production periods, resignations are not approved.

- Some dispatch workers have not received promised bonuses.

- Student workers do overtime during peak production season, even though regulations on student internships prohibit this.

- Some workers put in at least 100 overtime hours each month, during busy production periods. Chinese labor law limits monthly overtime to 36 hours.

- Workers must get approval to not do overtime. If requests are denied and staff still choose not to work overtime, they are admonished by managers and miss out on future overtime opportunities.

- Workers sometimes have to stay at the factory for unpaid meetings at night.

- The factory doesn’t provide adequate protective equipment for staff.

- Work injuries are not reported by the factory, and verbal abuse is common there.

ajsnigrutin• 7 years ago

- During peak production periods, resignations are not approved.

How the hell do they enforce this?

verroq• 7 years ago

Probably by not paying?

seanmcdirmid2• 7 years ago

Easy: you have to get a written release from your employer before you start your new job. They simply withhold that release (HR gets really confused when hiring from foreign countries that have no such concept).

jbob20002• 7 years ago

This is what happens when incentives are not aligned with regulations. The companies say "we'll follow these regulations" but then turn around and tell the managers "meet this deadline". If you want people to follow regulations, you tell them "follow the regulations" and then if you happen to meet your deadlines, that's a bonus (and if the regulations get in the way of your deadlines, then add more capacity or change your deadlines).

normalhuman• 7 years ago

This is what happens when incentives are not aligned with regulations.

No, this is what happens when one leaves the fox guarding the hen house.

If incentives were aligned with regulations, there would be no need for regulations to begin with.

jjtheblunt2• 7 years ago

Bloomberg is so full of bias it's preposterous: Apple themselves detected the violation in a contracted factory, and reported promptly. But that doesn't make a clickbaity title.

It would be fascinating to know why Forbes and Bloomberg seem funded to deride Apple.

slowmovintarget• 7 years ago

Quote from another discussion about a Bloomberg claim:

Bloomberg, of course, is the publication that published “The Big Hack” last October — a sensational story alleging that data centers of Apple, Amazon, and dozens of other companies were compromised by China’s intelligence services. The story presented no confirmable evidence at all, was vehemently denied by all companies involved, has not been confirmed by a single other publication (despite much effort to do so), and has been largely discredited by one of Bloomberg’s own sources. By all appearances “The Big Hack” was complete bullshit. Yet Bloomberg has issued no correction or retraction, and seemingly hopes we’ll all just forget about it. I say we do not just forget about it. Bloomberg’s institutional credibility is severely damaged, and everything they publish should be treated with skepticism until they retract the story or provide evidence that it was true.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20914585

Apple and Foxconn broke a Chinese labor law to build the latest iPhones

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