Mystery surrounds lost German sea data station

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49592330

by bauc • 7 years ago

169 83 7 years ago

bbc.co.uk

echelon• 7 years ago

Could this research platform have been sabotaged by a US submarine? The current administration is poised against climate change science, and submarines are reportedly used in clandestine operations to splice or cut communication cables. Perhaps it was generating data that was making someone unhappy.

Edit: I'm being downvoted for making a (not unreasonable?) supposition. I honestly wanted a discussion about submarines and/or intelligence community things.

xfitm3• 7 years ago

The current administration is pro science.

elmomle• 7 years ago

I believe OP means the current US administration.

eloff• 7 years ago

It might also have been abducted by aliens, but it's not constructive to suggest something with a 0% probability, when rounded.

It seems like submarines splicing spy equipment into undersea cables is their biggest peace time application - and it looks like every country that can do it, does it in some form or other. It just came to light that South Africa is doing that, and they can barely keep the lights on as a nation. If a basket-case like South Africa does it, probably every developed nation does it.

imglorp2• 7 years ago

It would be far from the first time somebody's science or fishing vessel was spying on someone else.

But would it would be the first time the US has interfered with an ally's spy rig? Five eyes, and all that, it's in our interest, right?

Maybe someone else messed with it.

pizzapill• 7 years ago

Germany is not in the five eyes. Its a Commonwealth thing. The US is doing mainly industrial espionage in Germany and drag net mass surveillance...

iamtheworstdev2• 7 years ago

It's extremely unlikely the US would do something like that to an ally. In regards to 'spying' in general, usually you don't really sabotage. You just note what's being collected and control it. Because by sabotaging something you give away that you know about it, that is has value, that you're possibly actively looking for similar things, blah blah.

I would bet money that someone dragged an anchor across the line or the device, and it has since been dragged across the sea floor to an unknown location by accident.

ianhawes• 7 years ago

Highly doubtful that someone dragged an anchor across a restricted area in 72 ft of water.

I'm not an expert on nautical stuff, but only the largest vessels would have anchor chains that long. Moreover, you'd have major problems getting your anchor detached from that thing. If you cut your chain (unlikely) then it would still be at the bottom of the sea. If you somehow managed to detach the sea station, it would also be laying nearby. Presumably the divers checked the nearby seabed?

darkcha0s• 7 years ago

I think the Bay (Eckernförde) is so small and shallow that any US Submarine would have been spotted immediately.

exar0815• 7 years ago

Highly unlikely. Those waters are too shallow for any US-Submarines (Or british) to operate in. And its one of the prime hunting grounds for german submarines, which are based in the Area. Much too risky.

baybal2• 7 years ago

Not even a diesel microsubmarine will be able to manoeuvre freely there unless surfaced

cerebellum42• 7 years ago

Yeah seems rather risky to be operating literally in the backyard of a major German submarine base. Six Type 212 subs are based in Eckernförde, one is actually on the marine tracker linked in the comments above [0] right now. If a submarine pops up there unannounced that's a diplomatic incident at least and with a naval base nearby the risk of discovery would be rather high.

[0] https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:9.973/cent...

squarefoot• 7 years ago

I didn't downvote you, however the problem with your reasoning is that every country has literally hundreds of devices scattered around and measuring every day data that could make someone unhappy. The current US administration (which I deeply dislike as well) would gain nothing but the great risks involved should the agents be caught with the pants down. While they could well sabotage a few stations, there are so many around that hitting all of them is plain impossible. If we accept your theory, we should also take into account Russia as well since this happened about two weeks after that nuclear incident, and having sensors measuring radiations far away from the event would make them unhappy too. I'm assuming that station has radiation sensors on board although their presence has not been reported because they're cheap and it would be stupid not to include them especially in that area. Same problem as above: let's say some Russian agents managed to destroy that station, how would they deal with the hundreds or thousands other stations doing similar measurements around without risking a lot of PR damage if caught?

To me, assuming it was intentional, it was either someone needing spare parts for his projects (kidding) or someone who didn't want measurements to be taken in that area because they are involved in illegal dumping of pollutants or similar things.

edit: knowing the exact type of sensors on board would help a lot to find the motivations in case of deliberate sabotage; eg, a magnetometer can detect anomalies in Earth's magnetic field, such as those produced by big ships or submarines passing by.

ceejayoz• 7 years ago

Climate deniers have managed to ignore inconvenient, extensive data for decades. I doubt they see a need to perform an act of war to prevent a trickle of additional data.

kjs3• 7 years ago

The current US administrations tact is "the science is wrong" or "the science is being misinterpreted". Why go to the trouble of some cloak and dagger mission when you can simply ignore it.

panzagl• 7 years ago

Trump is not Der Kinderlumper.

astrodev• 7 years ago

Maybe stolen for scrap metal (would not be that unusual, as absurd as it sounds)

abricot• 7 years ago

They would probably just have taken the cable and left the station.

cs7022• 7 years ago

It reads like the beginning of a script for one of those giant-aquatic-monster summer movies starting, say, Jason Statham.

Quoting from the OP: "The seabed 'observatory', worth about €300,000 (£270,000), weighed more than half a tonne. It could not have been dragged off by a storm ... Divers only found a torn power cable at the site, 22m (72ft) down and 1.8km (1.2 miles) offshore."

ethbro• 7 years ago

Except it turns out it's actually a heist movie, and they stole it at the beginning of the movie.

cs7022• 7 years ago

Probably with the same actors too.

epiphanitus• 7 years ago

Who knows, maybe a giant octopus was looking for an easy snack.

ericb2• 7 years ago

I can understand a cut cable and a humans stealing something worth 300k. But in what scenario does a torn cable make sense?

joshvm• 7 years ago

You would have to dive to cut the cable. Easier, if your boat is powerful enough, to pull until the cable breaks. Ignoring malicious activity, could be something as simple as an anchor got caught and they pulled the station with it?

samstave6• 7 years ago

Or, you can use the USS Jimmy Carter submarines cable splicing room to do whatever you may want to do...

simplicio• 7 years ago

It cost 300k, but I can't imagine there's a huge blackmarket for fencing sea-water salinity monitors and the like, so I doubt stealing it would be worth anyones trouble.

michaelg7x• 7 years ago

Maye it didn't "just" do climate science, and for that reason someone with the right resources wanted it to disappear.

msla• 7 years ago

It doing climate science is plenty of reason for some people to want it to disappear.

jagermo2• 7 years ago

Yeah, as a German, I doubt our ability to place fancy surveillance stuff or other military projects onto the seabed.

oh_sigh• 7 years ago

Maybe all of your talented engineers are doing exactly that, and everyone else left over is doing things like building airports.

rurban• 7 years ago

It could have been cooperated with the NATO to monitor Russian submarine activity. That could be the explanation why it was cutoff and took away, and not just intercepted (spliced) as usual.

Spare_account• 7 years ago

It could not have been dragged off by a storm

I'd have thought that until other evidence comes to light, this is the most likely answer actually.

notkaiho2• 7 years ago

Except there haven't been severe storms in the area since 21 August.

robk• 7 years ago

That's the day it was lost

raxxorrax• 7 years ago

They bay is partly prohibited to be visited because it is used by the military.

It is also believed that a lot of ammunition was disposed there after WW2, which perhaps could offer some starting points for an explanation, even if unlikely.

The military currently uses it for torpedo tests and perhaps someone is currently really starting to sweat after reading this article.

mannykannot• 7 years ago

Someone dragged an anchor or a trawl net over it and isn't about to admit to it, especially once they realize they were in a prohibited zone.

Having occasionally followed rocket launches from Wallops Island, I think I have a small sense of how often keep-out rules are violated. Unless this area had 24/7 radar monitoring, I think this is the most likely explanation.

mr_overalls• 7 years ago

"No boats - not even local fishing boats - are allowed into the area, called Eckernförde Bay, about 70km (44 miles) south of the Danish border."

Seems like a risky place to go trawling.

giarc• 7 years ago

A comment in this thread shows the area. It's pretty small and would be very easy for someone to drive through without realizing it.

tokai• 7 years ago

I grew up on an island in the Baltic. Cable lines to main land snapped by anchor dragging was a surprisingly common occurrence. Other marine shenanigans included drunken sailors beaching their ships because they forgot to turn around the island. And ofcause a ton of illegal fishing.

Your conclusion seems most likely in my book.

Accujack• 7 years ago

Agreed. Bottom trawling was the first thing I thought of. The machinery is probably relatively nearby, possibly with shreds of net caught in it, sitting on the bottom.

samstave6• 7 years ago

How big are these sensor objects? How do they communicate what datat they collect?

markbnj• 7 years ago

This is my bet as well.

andrewflnr• 7 years ago

Two units connected by a cable, weighing a combined 1700 pounds, both dragged away by accident? I have a hard time imagining that. In an accident where something on the surface snags it, I can see one of the units getting pulled away and the cable snapping, but both seems unlikely, at least for an anchor. Granted, I don't know much about what a trawl net looks like in the water or how much weight it can hold.

DoctorOetker• 7 years ago

why don't they put accoustic retroreflectors (perhaps with a tailored high q resonant frequency response on it) on the thing?

then its just a question of raising the signal from the noise floor at different locations to locate it...

frobozz2• 7 years ago

No boats - not even local fishing boats - are allowed into the area, called Eckernförde Bay, about 70km (44 miles) south of the Danish border.

Do they mean this Eckernförde Bay? https://www.google.com/maps/@54.4733896,9.8473616,800m/data=...

Here? https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:9.973/cent...

rerx• 7 years ago

There are some restricted zones. German, but if you click on the map, you will get an idea: https://mein-ostseehafen.de/seegebiete/schleswig-holstein/sc...

frobozz2• 7 years ago

Openseamap shows two sperrgebiete in the bay, and one just outside it http://map.openseamap.org/?lang=de

samstave6• 7 years ago

I really want to know if that german submarine station in antarctica and the rumored US base under san diego are true.

dubbel• 7 years ago

The German source article is a bit more specific: They are talking about the exclusion zone "Hausgarten" near the Camping ground Hökholz.

https://map.openseamap.org/?zoom=15&lat=54.54194&lon=10.0440...

namewithhe1d4• 7 years ago

I see a couple candidates that passed through on Aug 20

Map of vessels passing through from Aug 18 - Aug 21 https://imgur.com/a/yLedgc6

Left track passed through Aug 18, right two tracks passed through Aug 20.

Vessel Hex Callsign DJ3767 MMSI 211191450 Vessel SY Malika Callsign DK7486 MMSI 211634590

zelienople2• 7 years ago

The mouth of Eckernförde is a pretty good place to observe the main transit belt between the North Sea and the Baltic.

This monitoring station disappeared toward the end, or shortly after, a major Russian naval exercise involving almost all of their northern fleet.

The US has moved an aircraft carrier, the Harry S Truman, near the coast of Norway, perhaps to observe Russian activity.

The Russians have two diesel-electric boats, both Kilo class, in the Baltic. Apparently, one of them has been out of commission for a while. The rumour is that they're significantly upgrading their Baltic submarine fleet.

While no passive sonar function has been disclosed for this station, it is fairly new, expensive and high-tech. It was deployed recently as an upgrade to the German data collection system in Kiel Bay.

Perhaps the Russians wished to transfer nuclear submarines to the Baltic to upgrade their fleet, and this station was seen as a concern.

PaulRobinson• 7 years ago

This might sound like a flippant question, but I'm genuinely curious: how do you know all this? Are you a keen fan of modern naval warfare and keep abreast of it all, or do you work in the industry somehow?

samstave6• 7 years ago

Thats not flippant AT ALL - i was going to pose the exact same question!

scottlocklin• 7 years ago

I'm guessing a keen reader of Jane's could know this. Pretty cool intel anyway. I'd love a news media that helped summarize a lot of stuff like this, but alas you have to rely on various blogs. "News" seems more disinfo these days than anything else.

jonathankoren3• 7 years ago

There is a lot of OSINT on the web and social media. People love taking pictures of every warship that crosses the Bosporus. People read Notice To Airmen reports and share out unusual reports linked to military activity. If you follow the right people on Twitter, you can watch them analyze North Korean missile tests and identify spy satellites in almost real time.

samstave6• 7 years ago

Also remember that google has been building autonomous submarine robots for a few years in alameda... with unknown sensor capabilities....

sandworm101• 7 years ago

I agree that it sounds like a military op, but why assume it was the Russians? This was a civilian station. If it had any sort of listening/detection capabilities those would be a threat to all military operations, irrespective of national origin. The americans, the brits, the germans, the russians, any one of them could have taken issue with this rig.

But I think it far more likely that this was a military accident. Someone dragged an anchor, net or towed sonar array over this thing. They might not have appreciated what had happened until days/weeks afterwards.

trhway• 7 years ago

Perhaps the Russians wished to transfer nuclear submarines to the Baltic to upgrade their fleet

while I generally agree with you and wouldn't put anything past my old country, even outright intentional stealing of the station,I don't think it is nuclear submarine here. It is too big of a fish to operate efficiently in the Baltic "tadpool"(http://ocean.dmi.dk/models/figs/bshcmod.png), and it doesn't provide any meaningful capabilities for that battle theater. From the USSR times Russia has the Baltic covered with more than enough antiship/antisubmarine/cruise missiles and other weaponry (like the short range ballistic missiles plus medium range cruise missiles which violated that treaty) which are based on land, on aircraft and on small ships, frigates and destroyers there. Nuclear submarine really doesn't add anything here. Despite all that hardware, Russia has been beefing ups its capabilities there - a lot of the ships were made operational (they hadn't been really despite their official "operational" status) plus the above mentioned new deployments of the ballistic and mid-range cruise missiles plus new generation of antiship and antisubmarine missiles (on smaller faster cheaper ships), and also i think the smaller submarine drones. These drones are much more probably at the issue here than a nuclear sub. There is also other submarine drone type - the nuclear powered and armed "doomsday" drone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status-6_Oceanic_Multipurpose_... . It is most probably built in St Petersburg and transferred to the North and Pacific fleets. While such transfers are usually with cold reactor and without warhead, there still may be some intelligence related drama around it.

duxup• 7 years ago

The rumour is that they're significantly upgrading their Baltic submarine fleet.

Russian rumors and threats of upgrades and military spending are a time honored tradition, with the exception of some specific projects that are not modernization at scale... the threats and rumors usually come to nothing.

Mystery surrounds lost German sea data station

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