US International Students Lose Internships Because of Outdated Work Policies

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2019/06/princeton-opt-joint-letter

by lord_sudo • 7 years ago

173 117 7 years ago

ajspencer• 7 years ago

This is tragic. Can anyone on HackerNews help them with advocacy or employment opportunities?

horyzen• 7 years ago

Unfortunately employment opportunity doesn't help in this case. They are already offered jobs/interns but cannot legally start working (anywhere) because they have to wait for the work permit (OPT) to be approved.

couchand• 7 years ago

Off-topic, but check out the moire effect on that image! It's only noticeable (to me) when scrolling, which is an interesting twist.

dublidu• 7 years ago

I was supposed to mentor an intern this summer but his OPT didn't get approved in time. This is such bullshit.

option• 7 years ago

Routinely happens to us. We made an offer (full time) to a graduating PhD student (US university) from one of the famous deep learning professors (one of three who won a Turing award recently). The guy really like our team and project yet he had Chinese citizenship and when declining our offer said he simply chose Canada vs US.

lagolinguini• 7 years ago

As an international student who went to a top US university, I'm faced with a similar situation when it comes to H1B. I understand I have no inherent right to be here, and that part of the reason why H1Bs are difficult to get is because of the many frivoulous petitions on behalf of my countrymen from large IT consultancy companies from my company. But when it comes the option between US and Canada, I'd rather pick Canada just for the peace of mind, even though I'd prefer to work in the US and the salaries in Canada are much lower.

ramraj072• 7 years ago

As someone who got his OPT extension before this cluster but still got his H1B rejected, it's safe to say I will highly discourage anyone I know from coming to the States for higher studies. Especially from India, since the Trump USCIS seems to have a special hatred towards Indians (because of outsourced workers abusing H1B? But that's not even the same people).

Till recently I felt guilty of the fact that every smart person I ever grew up knowing had emmigrated to the States and left India behind, but maybe this is a good thing for India now? Not sure yet.

microcolonel2• 7 years ago

the Trump USCIS seems to have a special hatred towards Indians

What exactly do you mean by that? Do you have some knowledge to share about Indians specifically having a harder time than others with USCIS recently?

satya712• 7 years ago

It's hard to come by rigorous numbers. But RFE's (request for evidence) are now the routine (approx 70% of cases) in all immigration cases. I haven't even heard of an acquaintance having their immigration (H1B, OPT, L1, permanent residency) being approved without an RFE in recent times. RFE's used to be the exception rather (where the lawyer/applicant genuinely made a mistake) than the norm. Now it's the other way round. They find a minor technicality to issue an RFE.

holy_city• 7 years ago

The rumblings I've heard is that the administration is dragging its feet almost anywhere they can, wrt immigration.

It's not just H1Bs from India, but nearly all visas from all countries. Events that are supposed to take place in 6 weeks are at 6 months, and it doesn't seem to be documented or reported anywhere. I've only heard about it through some friends going through it or otherwise involved in the processes.

maxxxxx• 7 years ago

It’s probably pretty difficult to square their anti immigration stance with their claim of being business friendly if you consider that most businesses love cheap immigrants. Hard to shape this into a coherent policy.

pnw_hazor2• 7 years ago

As mentioned, US immigration resources are being consumed by dealing with the flood of illegal immigrants at the southern border. Persons are being re-tasked to handle the asylum-claim processing and dealing with all of the unaccompanied minors.

diebeforei4852• 7 years ago

Sounds like Princeton should be offering a CPT course for credits during the summer like pretty much every other top-ranked university. Students would likely have to pay some amount of tuition for those credits, but that is not too bad in the context of a paid internship.

USCIS (the agency that adjudicates OPT cases) is likely massively overloaded with processing border asylum cases at the moment - and recent media reports suggest they have been roping in employees who would usually work other parts of the immigration system to work asylum cases.

djakjxnanjak• 7 years ago

With an endowment of over $2 million per student, Princeton doesn’t need to charge tuition at all - it’s a choice they can make though.

killjoywashere2• 7 years ago

I've heard the Ivies described as hedge funds with ownership stakes in small liberal arts schools.

Scoundreller• 7 years ago

Sorta similar, the trust formed to maintain the London Bridge still exists, but from its investments and historic revenue, has switched to charity work and doesn’t collect tolls anymore.

HeavenFox• 7 years ago

This. In fact they don't even need to charge for the course - my school enrolls the student in a 1-credit course in the subsequent semester.

Not providing CPT for internships is probably the worst bureaucracy nightmare for international students. OPT has a high application fee, long turnaround, and takes up time from post-graduation employment. CPT is literally the opposite - I remember stepping into my school's international student office with an offer letter, and 5 minutes later I have my work authorization in hand.

therein• 7 years ago

Yeah, so much so that as an international student, I would be weary accepting an offer from Yale knowing they don't provide CPT.

sheeshkebab• 7 years ago

My previous employer hired F1 grads not bc they were better but bc they were cheaper. I know that bc I interviewed hires (it’s hard to resist for employers the idea that they can get two guys for almost the price of one).

these opt programs should be regulated same way they do H1, or better eliminate them. If you really want these graduates to stay and work in the country, just give them permanent residency from the start. It’s better for everyone.

kccqzy• 7 years ago

not bc they were better

What else do you expect? They are international students, undergoing the same undergraduate or graduate education as US citizens. There's no reason to expect them, as a whole, to perform differently than other US citizen new grads. I've seen very smart and diligent F1 students, as well as some clearly just coasting along without motivation. Just like for US citizen students.

but bc they were cheaper

This depends on where you are but in my experience most Silicon Valley companies do not discriminate in terms of compensation based on nationality for new grads.

scarejunba• 7 years ago

A default assumption is that if you're selecting from A, a superset of B, max(A)>=max(B).

FrojoS• 7 years ago

What else do you expect? They are international students, undergoing the same undergraduate or graduate education as US citizens. There's no reason to expect them, as a whole, to perform differently than other US citizen new grads.

The quality of a uni graduate is less about the quality of the uni's teaching and more about the quality of said graduates when they get in, as well as how hard they work while at uni. I would assume, that the average international student who gets into a top university is already better than the average national, due to the higher selection pressure on the former. Also, international students, which in the case of the US, tend to come from a less rich country, are more likely to work hard at uni. They are less satisfied with their financial situation and hence have more to gain.

Having said all that, a lot of lobbying in favour of immigration has the unstated goal of wage depression. It is also not fair to accuse those who are against more immigration of xenophobia or worse. Every political decision has winners and losers and it's easy to be pro-immigration when you profit rather than suffer from it.

-- an immigrant

repiret• 7 years ago

I think the real fix is to have the education visa include summer work authorization.

briandear• 7 years ago

French education visas allow 20 or 25 hours of work per week built into the visa. But getting to stay after the education is complete is really hard for non-EU citizens.

kinkrtyavimoodh2• 7 years ago

Unfortunately the US really has ridiculous Visa policies across the board, with different types of documentation needed for different levels of the same thing.

If you want to do a CPT (internship while your course is ongoing), you can just inform your school and it's fine. But if you want to do it after the course (OPT), you have to apply for an EAD, which adds another 3 months of delay. Why can't the attestation on your I-94 be enough?

It's like the USCIS creates additional paper work for itself so that it can cry about having too much work.

flukus• 7 years ago

Then you get a heap of international students doing jobs that have typically been for local teenagers and the lower skilled, often with huge labor violation issues.

ardit33• 7 years ago

well there are plenty of crappy employers out there than just want cheap labor, but there are plenty that just want the best employees available world wide, especially if they compete in a world wide market.

When I worked at Spotify (NYC office), we had many international engineers (french, spanish, indian, chinese, swedish... etc), that got stuck in the H-1B limbo....

Spotify just moved them into the Stockholm office until/when their H-1B went through.... doing the same work, paying Swedish taxes...

The idea that 'less foreign/international' workers more jobs for US employees is partially false, and has two assumptions that are false:

1. Talent/workforce is not mobile (i.e. the same worker that could have been in the US, can't compete with US labour force outside the country, which is false). In case of Spotify, some of the projects which could have been done in NYC, just got done in Stockholm (and Goteborg) instead.

2. Smart people that coming in the US don't increase the overall economic PIE, but just take form the local workforce, which is false as well. Smart people usually raise up/increase the overall economic PIE.

Sure, there is plenty workplaces (usually bodyshops and second rate employees), that use H-1Bs and OPTs for cheap labour, but most serious companies simply want the best engineers available world wide. The government should help/facilitate the second type of employer. There is many ways the H-1B and (OPTs) can be reformed in order to benefit both the local economy and preventing abusers of the system.

Also, when engaged in a new cold war/trade war with China, the US can't afford to squander its most important asset that it has: The ability to attract the best of the world in this country. If you put barriers for smart people to come in, and your opponent has 4x the number of available talent locally, then you are bound to lose.

While I like the hard stance of Trump with China, the hard stance with smart immigration is just boneheaded and plain stupid....

FabHK5• 7 years ago

Yes. These policies also encourage good foreign students in the USA to return to their home country after they graduate (which does in fact happen more and more), which is good for the home country, but bad for the USA. Winning bigly.

solidsnack9000• 7 years ago

The headline might be better written as, Princeton's unwillingness to offer CPT is impacting international students.

dsfyu404ed• 7 years ago

That won't grab as many clicks and eyeballs though.

olcor• 7 years ago

The writing on the wall has been there for quite some time. I’ve been hearing lots of issues with foreign students facing issues, not just for OPT, but also difficulties getting or continuing assistantships, finding campus jobs, facing direct/indirect threats of losing their visa, etc. This is to be expected; international students are in a vulnerable position, and can be easily taken advantage of by both university officials and by industry (assuming they somehow get a job).

I’d advise any foreign aspirant to avoid the USA for further studies unless they can easily afford tuition. No need to fill university coffers with out-of-state tuition for such degrading treatment.

killjoywashere2• 7 years ago

What's interesting from my perspective as the parent of a US teenager about to start senior year of high school: it's hard not to notice that schools are concurrently less and less friendly toward in-state students. They clearly enjoy those sweet out-of-state dollars. I have a friend who's daughter is captain of the gymnastics team, has a 4.something, all the STEM AP courses, and still got rejected by every UC school. The UC system might as well hang a shingle "Locals, keep out".

nraynaud2• 7 years ago

And they receive scam phone calls about their status or the IRS, sometimes directly in Chinese.

dmode2• 7 years ago

I would highly encourage international students to reconsider their plans of studying in the US. I am coming from my own personal experience, but as you can read from this thread or any immigration forum, the policies of the current administration are increasingly hostile towards immigrants. Especially, Chinese and Indian students should rethink. Few reasons why not to study in the US:

1. USCIS has made the OPT process increasingly difficult as yo u can read from this article. However, OPT is the only option if you want to work in the US post graduation. Chances of getting an employer prior to graduation, who can file your H1 in April and wait for you to join in October is close to zero

2. H1 visa is a crapshoot lottery and if you are not a STEM student, you will most likely get one shot at it. If you are not picked, that's the end of it

3. Even if you get selected in H1, 70% of cases result in RFE for BS reasons that a hostile USCIS agent made up on the spot. H1 laws are so vague that a rogue USCIS officer can make up any reason to deny your petition.

4. Even if you get an approved H1 petition, it comes with a ton of strings attached. And if you travel out of the country you have to get a visa from your home country or Canada or Mexico. The visa process also been made extremely difficult, with routine delays and 3-6 months wait in many cases. Imagine being stuck abroad and having to let your employer know that they have to wait months before you can be back.

5. If you are an Indian student currently, the path to green card simply doesn't exist. There is a 100 year wait for a green card

6. Points #1-5 above are not bugs, but features. US education only makes sense for rich students, who want to study for a few years and return. But then, why would you want to study in the US and deal with the harassment in US consulates and embassies to get an F-1 visa or deal with hostile CBP agents who treat you like enemies after flying for 40 hours.

pooya13• 7 years ago

I would suggest considering Canada as an alternative. My experience has been mostly positive as an international student in Canada.

mcv• 7 years ago

There are also many European universities that are welcoming of international students. I'd steer clear from the UK for now, though. No idea how hard it is to get a EU student visa compared to a Canadian one, though.

tr33house• 7 years ago

FYI Canadian Unis are getting worried about Indian intl. students.

FabHK5• 7 years ago

All of your points except 1. seem predicated on the notion that you'd want to stay in the USA after your studies. What if you don't?

djangovm• 7 years ago

Well... how else do you pay back the loan you take to study in USA? This is a problem for a huge portion of students, immigrant or not.

You can argue that students can go back to their own country and repay the loan? That is practically impossible for almost every student coming from India and China.

winter_blue4• 7 years ago

This was perfectly said, and spot on. (Thank you.)

Reading about how Canada welcomes skilled immigrants, almost brought tears to my eyes. If your English is good and you've studied in Canada (even just a bachelor's degree), you're given a Post-Graduation Work Permit (PGWP) upon graduation, and are practically guaranteed to eventually get a Canadian green card via the Canadian Experience Class (Express Entry) program.

For folks outside Canada, good English, education beyond a bachelor's degree, and 3 years of skilled work experience, guarantees you'll have enough points to get a Federal Skilled Worker green card immediately.

I haven't looked at countries besides Canada; but I would strongly recommend Canada over the U.S. for anyone seeking to migrate on the basis of skills.

rayiner3• 7 years ago

Relevant: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/28/opinion/canada-immigratio...

But Canada’s hospitable attitude is not innate; it is, rather, the product of very hardheaded government policies. Ever since the mid-1960s, the majority of immigrants to the country (about 65 percent in 2015) have been admitted on purely economic grounds, having been evaluated under a nine-point rubric that ignores their race, religion and ethnicity and instead looks at their age, education, job skills, language ability and other attributes that define their potential contribution to the national work force.

perfunctory2• 7 years ago

I haven't looked at countries besides Canada; but I would strongly recommend Canada over the U.S. for anyone seeking to migrate on the basis of skills.

I would also suggest to consider the Netherlands. The procedure for highly skilled migrants is super simple. Pretty much the only condition is that your employer pays you a sufficient wage.

https://ind.nl/en/work/Pages/Highly-skilled-migrant.aspx

Consultant32452• 7 years ago

US immigration policy is now somewhat akin to charity rather than intended to maximize the highly skilled talent pool. This isn't intended as a criticism, but by and large most of our immigration pool comes from poor countries and does not have specialized skills. And we're pretty lenient on illegal immigration which is largely low skilled labor as well. There's a movement right now to change it to be more like the Canada system, more closely based on skill. Whether that's better or worse is subjective I suppose.

throwmex6• 7 years ago

Québec is an exception to this. Québec do not follow the Express Entry system. Québec has its own immigration system called Québec Skilled Worker Programme which is currently dysfunctional, plagued with delays. Québec gives more importance to knowing French rather than any other skills in selecting immigrants. As a result, Quebec has a pool of unemployable but French speaking immigrants.

ratsimihah2• 7 years ago

I disagree. I studied at CCNY in NYC and did internships at Stanford University and for Google's GSoC using my CPT, and then worked for a cool startup for 2+ years on OPT and extension. We then did the H1B lottery and didn't get selected so I had to leave.

It's not fun, but I don't regret it. I had a super good time in the US, learned a lot, and it opened my mind in many ways. I think if people are interested in spending time in the US, it's worth taking a shot, even with all that immigration struggle.

winter_blue4• 7 years ago

That's true. The U.S. is indeed a great place to live, and the people are really friendly and treat you as one of them (at least in NY and CA). But unfortunately the immigration laws are kafkaesque and designed to keep immigrants out, and the current administration is making it even more worse.

throwmex6• 7 years ago

You must be one of the following ?

1.You have an outstanding student loan which you are paying off with a non US salary.

2. You were on a scholarship.

3. Rich.

KorematsuFred2• 7 years ago

Indian students in family have been choosing Germany and Australia since Trump took over. USCIS has devolved into a garbage agency that pushes Trumps agenda that he can not achieve legally.

mistermann5• 7 years ago

It may simultaneously be true that more students have been choosing USA than Germany or Australia since Trump took over.

throwmex6• 7 years ago

I agree & I immigrated to Canada within an year of graduation and is now a permanent resident of Canada. US H1B & OPT is BS.

Students from India and China should tread carefully. All this trouble and high tuition fees will land you in financial & immigration trouble.

0xcafecafe• 7 years ago

To add to your pt.5, even if you were an Indian student in the last decade (like me in 07-09),even if you went to one of the top 5 universities in your field and even if you are in a high paying job (location adjusted), the path to GC doesn't realistically exist.

People like me got screwed the most because when we started basing our lives here, there was a 5-7 wait for a green card. It has been a decade since but still no realistic path exists as the wait has grown exponentially.

BeetleB• 7 years ago

To add to your pt.5, even if you were an Indian student in the last decade (like me in 07-09),even if you went to one of the top 5 universities in your field and even if you are in a high paying job (location adjusted), the path to GC doesn't realistically exist.

Well, technically, it does if you're in the O or EB-1 category. But probably over 95% of Indians are not.

Since it has not bee mentioned yet, the priority date for Indians in EB-2 (typically a MS or PhD degree) is June 1, 2009. This means they are currently processing candidates who had cleared their labor certification by June 1, 2009 - over a decade ago.

That date has barely moved in the last decade. I remember it being about 2006 back in 2012. It quickly moved to 2008, and then regressed all the way back to 2003, and then jumped to 2008 again.

I know Indians who started working in 2008. Because of the economic downturn, the company did not apply for their green card (almost guaranteed to get rejected as it's pretty hard to show a shortage in a recession). The company finally applied for them in 2011, so their priority date is 2011. They've been working over a decade, and USCIS is not even close to processing them.

Once you have a priority date, a change in job, or a change in location is not a realistic option. The laws allow you to do it, but then the employer has to redo the labor certification, potentially risking a rejection, or a new priority date.

Things have been bad for Indians since the Obama days. Whatever Trump may have added to it is just noise.

(Edit: Amusingly, the priority date for Indians with only a BS degree (EB-3) is April 2010. They are now ahead of the MS/PhD's in the queue. They usually lagged by several years. Interesting...)

the_snooze• 7 years ago

US education only makes sense for rich students, who want to study for a few years and return.

I want to add that it doesn't make sense at all for funded PhD students, whose advisors draw a lot of funds from the state and federal governments to support them. We're spending a lot of public money educating international students, then forcing that talent and investment out the door when they're done. Why not keep them in the country for a bit to innovate for American companies and pay income taxes?

geodel2• 7 years ago

Two things come to mind:

1. Most of them do not want to stay for a bit but permanently so when asked to leave after x years they will be even more unhappy because now they have settled down, made friends and raising family etc. And I am sympathetic to this argument.

2. Sending immediately back also seems morally right thing to do. While US companies may benefit a bit but 3rd world is in desperate need of well trained experts. Sending those PhDs etc back may be more helpful in getting those countries develop and become self dependent than just aid programmes.

geodel2• 7 years ago

Well it seems to me most of the students from India assumed it is kinda shortcut to US permanent residency. And it is no longer happening. The trouble is all grandstanding of students and Indian government of shunning US and instead preferring Europe or Australia is not really working. I recently read an amusing news that Indian government asking european, australian governments to allow more indian students and less restrictive policy on movement. While European telling back that India does have good educational institutes so why do they want to come there in first place. Normally it would be exactly other way round where foreign governments wanted more international students.

At this point of time it is fair to say it is stronger wish of Indian students to migrate to first world. Whereas first world nations are no longer excited to have more students from outside just because they can pay fees but in return most of them want to settle there. This assumption of first world education will include permanent immigration is no longer valid.

More importantly it also exposes hypocrisy of large majority of students who write idealistic crap in admission essays, benefit from huge privilege in grossly unequal society in India and then try to comfortably settle down in egalitarian first world. It is likely protectionist move by US government but these student whining that 'world is not fair' and that they have legitimate rights to visa and GC reeks of something similar to 'White privilege'.

lawrenceyan• 7 years ago

Where else in the world can you realistically earn as much here in the Bay Area though?

dragonwriter2• 7 years ago

There is a 100 year wait for a green card

No, there's not. That's a hyperbolic projection which requires assuming no one ever leaves the queue (not by giving g up, not by dying, not by no longer being qualified) except by reaching he head and getting a visa.

Obviously, over a 100 year wait time, that's not remotely possible, even as a rough approximation.

Which is not to say the situation isn't miserable for Indian (Chinese, Mexican, and Filipino, too) GC applicants in many categories (not the same ones for each), but it’s not a 100 year long wait.

debatem13• 7 years ago

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she

With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

barry-cotter• 7 years ago

International students at Princeton do not exactly qualify as wretched refuse. Almost all are going to be paying full fees; they’re from rich families.

debatem13• 7 years ago

Do you think the truly destitute get better treatment at our hands?

Do you think those words are inscribed on the base of the statue of liberty as a warning to the wealthy? A "keep out!" sign for the hopeful and striving students of the world?

nraynaud2• 7 years ago

They don’t have MasterCard students?

harimau777• 7 years ago

How reciprocal are international study opportunities? What I mean is:

Do US students have similar opportunities to study at foreign universities as foreign students have to study at US universities?

When comparing universities with similar entrance requirements (e.g. state schools, prestigious private schools, ivy league, etc.) are there a comparable number of US and foreign openings?

How often is instruction in English? (I realize this isn't entirely fair, but the reality is that high quality foreign language training isn't available at many US schools in the same way it is in Europe; which isn't the student's fault).

It seems to me that if the opportunities are not symmetrical then it is reasonable for there to be at least some protection/preference for domestic students. However, I think that needs to be balanced against the benefits of attracting foreign talent and expanding diversity. Either way, my understanding is that the US visa system is largely irrational and broken so it should definitely be reformed.

valarauko2• 7 years ago

There are definitely international study opportunities, though the direction usually isn't reciprocal. For example, while Indian students are interested in universities in English speaking countries, there is a sizable international student population in India from East Africa, the Middle East, Iran, and the immediate neighbourhood. Premier institutions, that indian students would kill for, reserve a percentage of seats for students from SAARC countries on the basis of their SATs scores. Private universities offer nicer hostels and emenities for foreign students.

selimthegrim• 7 years ago

SAARC excluding PK?

FabHK5• 7 years ago

Many many universities open their doors for international students, frequently with courses in English. If you rank the schools here [1] by "International Students", you'll see universities primarily in Europe, the Middle East, APAC.

Often, foreigners pay more than domestic students.

Most countries strictly control employment opportunities for non-citizens, of course.

[1] https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un...

pnw_hazor2• 7 years ago

President Trump is trying to reform the US VISA system to make it more consistent with other developed nations. But for some reason any attempt to move to a more merit based system is considered racist by Democratic politicians.

Also, the flood of illegal aliens and faux-asylum seekers is sucking all of the oxygen out of the room as far as having a rational immigration system goes.

yur501• 7 years ago

I am doing my PhD in Netherlands after studying in Belgium. I also worked in USA for a few years as a software engineer. Work culture is more relaxed in EU. My wife is allowed to work here from day of her arrival even though I am a PhD student. Even on a single salary we were able to travel around Europe. I had the option to study in USA for my PhD. Looking at the current situation, I am very happy with my decision to stay in Europe. Public transport is great, language is not a problem in big cities, and food/wine/beer/cheese is amazing.

US International Students Lose Internships Because of Outdated Work Policies

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