Ask HN: How Do You Sleep?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19970447

by penciljencil • 7 years ago

41 51 7 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

For about two months I've been unable to get quality sleep. My productivity at work has hit an all time low and I'm even finding it difficult to stay awake while driving.

Does anyone else deal with these issues? Were you able to fix your sleep?

rootshelled2• 7 years ago

Things that help me when I'm feeling tired or just struggling with keeping a normal sleeping pattern: 1. try to cut coffee for a month. You'd be surprised how much it affects your sleep/eating habits. Or atleast it does for me.

2. If you can find the time, work out

3. Most people need between 7 and 9 hours of sleep. While it's also recommended to atleast get 1 block of 5 hours during sleeping.

4. Water, get an healthy amount of water in a day (though don't start chugging like a mad men, I said an healthy amount)

5. Having an balanced diet that is maintainable.

6. Having a cold shower in the morning wakes me up, so does taking a dump

7. Drop sweet drinks they're sugared water and hold more calories then you should drink

I'm not an doctor so take everything I say with an pinch of salt

rootshelled2• 7 years ago

Also if it's becoming bad you might just want to ask your local doctor.

Might also be worth to check if it's not due to too much stress.

raztogt21• 7 years ago

1. Cut caffeine (coffee, tea or energy drinks). The first 3 days suck. You should start sleeping better without stimulants.

2. Avoid blue screens 1 or 2 hours before sleep. I used to read my books on a Kindle Fire. I started reading paper books at night.

3. Exercise. The best time for exercising is when you have the time.

These three things should account for a significant improvement.

phailhaus• 7 years ago

On top of 2: if you can't avoid screens, at least get a blue light filtering app like flux. It'll feel weird at first but you'll quickly get used to it.

godot2• 7 years ago

I second this, I would even go as far as to say that now that I'm used to this filter on all my devices (desktop/laptop/mobile), I can't stand looking at a screen without a blue light filter in the evening. I get a headache pretty quickly after looking at a screen without the filter for over 5 minutes, in the evening.

peapicker2• 7 years ago

I had that problem. Even 9 hours wouldn't rest me, as I wasn't getting quality sleep. Went to an ENT, who scheduled a sleep study. I have sleep apnea. Got a CPAP (on my third now, 14 years later). Since then, I'm fully charged with 6.5 hours of sleep. Consider a sleep study.

Caffeine after ~3pm is a no-go for me (other friends of mine have different cutoff times)

Also don't forget that alcohol can make sleep lower quality as well.

Working out regularly also helps, as well as avoiding screens for 1 hours before bed.

stphnlngdn• 7 years ago

I have a cpap. How to you keep it on while you're asleep? I always end up taking mine off in my sleep an hour into the night

peapicker2• 7 years ago

I have a "nose pillows" type CPAP mask - about as small and low-profile as they get. I hated the other types. You have to be able to keep your mouth shut for it to work... I tend to now always sleep on my side because of this. I sleep so well now, I actually look forward to putting the ugly thing on.

mcgoo• 7 years ago

I tried maybe 5 different kinds of mask until I found what worked. Interestingly, according to the supplier I get stuff from, the masks are all pretty much compatible between manufacturers so there is a lot of scope if mask discomfort is the problem.

Diederich• 7 years ago

To what the others said, the particular mask type can matter a lot.

In my case, I fought with it for years...I just had to keep at it, until finally I started leaving it on.

yamrzou• 7 years ago

A year ago I bought a memory foam pillow after reading positive reviews about it in Amazon.

At the beginning it felt hard, but I kept it, thinking that I’d get used to it. And I actually got used to it. Except that my sleep quality was deteriorating slowly without me noticing.

The pillow lead to a “hidden” neck pain that I was feeling all the time. During the last previous months my sleep was horrible, I’d randomly wake up a lot of times during the night.

Two weeks ago I thought about ditching the pillow. The results were magical : I’ve never felt having a better sleep during the past year, and my neck pain started disappearing.

I’m still surprised how a whole year has passed before I suspected that the pillow might be the cause.

x2f10• 7 years ago

I am living your past life. Suggestions on pillow for side / belly sleeper?

slipwalker• 7 years ago

i second this "request for pillow recommendations".

gshdg2• 7 years ago

Latex foam pillows. Firm for side sleeping; soft for belly sleeping.

monster_group• 7 years ago

I am not a doctor but I want to tell you what really helped me. Magnesium Glycinate, Magnesium L-Threonate, L-Tryptophan. These are not sleeping pills. They are supplements to compensate for Magnesium and amino acid deficiencies which shouldn't exist in the first place. You don't need to take all three. For me L-Tryptophan works the best.

jmpman• 7 years ago

My sleep doctor recommended Magnesium Glycinate. I also take calcium and EPA fish oil. Takes about 6 weeks for me to notice any difference, but that combo solved my 5 years of insomnia. Good luck. Go see a sleep doctor, as you may have apnea and you need that diagnosed quickly. The sleep doctor will also likely have you try Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which did absolutely nothing for me.. might have made my insomnia worse, but the studies indicate it’s effective for many. I also highly recommend not getting mixed up with any sleeping pills if you can avoid it. They’re not a long term solution.

Iwan-Zotow• 7 years ago

Badly...

Darmody• 7 years ago

I'm having trouble to wake up rested lately, no matter if I sleep 7 hours, 8 hours, 10 hours or if I take a nap during the day.

I actually have some sleeping suplements like tryptophan and melatonin in my shopping cart ready to buy them.

surds• 7 years ago

Do a sleep study. Any number of hours can be insufficient if you have sleep apnea, as the body is not getting the rest it needs.

I had the same problem. Using a CPAP since over 2 years now, and it has been life changing. The effect wasn't evident overnight for me and I think I am still recovering from decades of lack of proper sleep due to the apnea.

mnorton2• 7 years ago

Some tricks I like:

- Magnesium bath (aka epsom salts)

- Orally supplemented liquid magnesium (though I have heard folks say that absorbing magnesium through the skin is actually a better way than orally.)

- Cold shower for 2-5 minutes, warm shower for 4-8 minutes, repeat and play with the times, ending on warm if your goal is sleep. Ending on cold if your goal is to be awake/get over a sickness.

Edit, also:

- exercise, but not too late into the day

- minimize late night screen time (duh. only mentioning it because I recently discovered the Accessibility-->Display Accommodations-->Color Filters on the Iphone. If you set it up to use a custom color tint and slide INTENSITY and HUE to max, then turn on the Accessibility Shortcut at the bottom of Accessibility, you can basically get your phone display set up to toggle a red light mode, which is much easier on the eyes at night)

- somewhat controversially: cannabis

- if you're dieting, save your carbs until the end of the day

- meditation, yoga, foam rolling, stretching - immediately prior to bed

I also do random shit like wear a bite guard to prevent grinding and occasionally go through phases where I'll tape my mouth shut to promote nasal breathing

quambene• 7 years ago

I prefer to stay up until I'm dead tired. Unfortunately, you can only do this if you have flexible working time and can adjust your sleep pattern accordingly. For me this is working because of self-employment.

rye-neat• 7 years ago

Black out curtains and block all other sources of light, sleep mask, ear plugs, and white noise (floor fan). It's silly but when I find my mind running I visualize myself putting that thought or idea on a shelf like it's a book.. this goes on maybe two or three more times and I'm OUT like a lightbulb on a switch.

cypherg• 7 years ago

1) no caffeine or stimulants afternoon 2) exercise 20m-1hr daily 3) smoke/vape a weed a couple hours before bed 4) rub one out

Out like a light.

frosted-flakes• 7 years ago

#1 and #3 give conflicting advice.

jolmg• 7 years ago

It might help to be more descriptive of your issue, so people can give better advice.

Is it that you're finding it difficult to decide to lay down and call it a day? Is it that you lay down, but can't fall sleep? Is it that you do fall sleep, but you don't feel rested on waking up? Is it that you're waking multiple times during the night and can't get into deep sleep? Do you feel physically or mentally tired? etc.

penciljencil• 7 years ago

My biggest issue is that I can't lie down in my bed and stop thinking. I'll be awake for hours with these random thoughts assaulting my head. Even if I do fall asleep, I'll then wake up 3 hours later and feel worse.

Another weird thing is that I feel sleepier during the day than I do at night.

eigenspace2• 7 years ago

There could be many things related to this but it seems like two main issues

1) You're being blown about by discursive thought

2) Your circadian rhythm is out of sync

For 1), I'd recommend taking up mindfulness meditation and practicing before bed. This will reduce stress and out you in a better mental state for sleeping.

2) could be caused by any number of things ranging from drugs (caffeine, alcohol, cannabis, sleep aids, etc.), insufficient exercise, not enough light in the morning, too much light in the evening, shifting bedtimes, noisy sleep environment, snoring, etc. Most of the comments around here will help with this problem though I'd be skeptical of anyone telling you to use medication or drugs for it. (I'm not anti-drug, I just think we don't understnad sleep or the brain well enough yet to effectively improve or induce sleep with drugs yet and most existing treatments seem to make you unconscious, but not necessarily asleep).

mattmanser• 7 years ago

What helped me immensely is simply writing it all down. By writing them down, I think my mind felt it could stop replaying them all because they were stored somewhere. I used to replay them in bed, when I was out walking, in the shower. It was exhausting and took up so much of my time. The same thoughts over and over. And on top of that, as I moved around my flat, I would see things that would remind me of unfinished projects, things I'd need to fix, and then I'd think about them.

So I made two lists. One for projects, one for worries.

The list of all the projects was for things I wanted to do. Things like learn piano, visit Moscow, floss more regularly, literally every project. I saved that on dropbox. It had over 60 or 70 projects on it. I added 50 on the first day, then as I thought of more things or saw the visual triggers (that cookbook I bought to learn to cook more meals, the light that doesn't work because it has a weird bulb), I would add them to the list immediately over the next few weeks.

And another list of all the things I was worried about. Might be things like the client is 3 days late on payment, does he have the money? Did I make a fool of myself at X's birthday? Why does Z keep shooting my ideas down so savagely. I put these all in a temporary tab in notepad++, mixed in with other tabs I tend to have open. It persists between turning the computer on and off, but if you close the tab without saving, it just gets deleted. As it was temporary, I felt I could put embarrassing or even mean thoughts on it. I think this had 7 or 8 things.

With the projects I soon realised I couldn't do 60 things at once and focused on 4. The list is there to find more projects to do as I finish stuff.

With the worries, next time I look at it, most of them are gone. And I just close it, gone forever. First time I closed it, it was so liberating. After doing that every now and again over a month or two, I only have to do it once every blue moon, it's a useful trick when I start feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Might not work for you, but worth a shot.

nf05papsjfVbc• 7 years ago

This is an exercise that I recommend: https://drcolleencarney.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Const...

This is called "worry time" and it has helped me in the past.

Another article describing it is here: https://healthypsych.com/psychology-tools-schedule-worry-tim...

It's not a silver bullet but it's a useful tool to have in one's toolbox.

godot2• 7 years ago

Have you paid attention to what your thoughts are at night?

I've had similar issues before and I've noticed that if I think about work, projects, my day, etc. I could go on for a long time without falling asleep. I began to notice that if I think about generally fiction/stories, I can fall asleep much more quickly. In my case I think about plots of movies I've recently watched (or a long time ago), whether it's Avengers or Dragon Ball etc. Perhaps you could give that a try.

gshdg2• 7 years ago

Getting lots of exercise always seems to fix this for me.

justsomeguy3591• 7 years ago

Surprised nobody's mentioned it in this thread yet, but Matthew Walker's Why we Sleep [0] is a great in-depth look at sleep and how complex its interactions with our day-to-day routines/quality of life are. It has a lot of practical advice on improving it, most of which is summarized here [1].

I went from a varied sleep schedule, trying to catch up on the weekends, etc to a solid 7.5-8h routine every night and it's made a tremendous difference. Best of luck to you!

[0] https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ1YGJ5/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_...

[1] http://routineexcellence.com/why-we-sleep-book-review-summar...

mnorton2• 7 years ago

Great book. He's also making the podcast rounds.

I enjoyed the term 8 hour sleep "opportunity", that he uses. Much more relatable for me.

rando444• 7 years ago

- Avoid all screens / blue light at least a half hour before bedtime

- No phones in the bedroom

- Eliminate light sources in the bedroom.. blackout curtains help a lot.

- No coffee after 2pm

- Lessen your daily stress as much as possible. (everyone is different so this is tough to generalize)

.. one thing that also really seems to help is listening to something while falling asleep. especially, and probably most importantly, something that you've already listened to many times before.

i'm a very light sleeper, and i thought this would never work for me, but it totally does.

I know friends that fall asleep with episodes of futurama or the office playing in the background. I usually choose foreign language audio books that I've listened to many times.

The listening takes your mind off whatever is keeping you awake, and the fact that you've listened to it many times before keeps you from needing to pay active attention.

These days I don't even set my audible sleep timer for more than 15 minutes.

- Last tip is to make sure you have a routine. If you're not going to bed and waking up at the same time every day, it's difficult to develop a rhythm that your body will adjust to.

kzisme• 7 years ago

Currently, quite poorly.

I find that I don't get tired until 4-5am (pretty sure my sleep schedule is messed up). Since I work remote I can either work late, or I get up early with less sleep.

I previously tried to use melatonin at night, but I've been taking it less since I'm not sure if it's helping or not.

eigenspace2• 7 years ago

I definitely recommend reading Why we Sleep by Matthew Walker to better understand what's going on biologically with sleep and why it's so vitally important to make sure you are sleeping well (and not ruining your sleep with things like sleeping pills, alcohol or marijuana). The audiobook is quite good.

Here are a few suggestions in no particular order:

- Light is very important in setting your circadian rhythm and making sure you are able to sleep. Try to maximize your sunlight / blue light exposure in the morning and then try your best to avoid sunlight and screens for as long as you can manage before bed (minimum half an hour). If you go outside in the late afternoon for a walk (strongly recommended!), wear sunglasses. If you have to use screens in the evening, install software to reduce blue light.

- Caffeine has a 6 hour half life in your system. That means that if you drink 4 cups of coffee and try to go to bed twelve hours later, your caffeine levels are still like you just drank a whole cup of coffee right before bed.

- Alcohol and Marijuana may seem to help you fall asleep but they're both detrimental to sleep quality and quantity. Alcohol is one of the strongest inhibitors of REM sleep we know of, even in very small quantities. If you're having sleep trouble, drop alcohol. If you really must drink, try to drink earlier so that less of it is in your system when you try to sleep. Marijuana also suppresses REM sleep, though it doesn't seem to cause you to wake up as much in the middle of the night as alcohol does so it may not be as bad I'd still say you should stay far away from Marijuana if you're having sleep problems. REM is very very important to many mental faculties.

- Sleeping pills like Ambien do not put you to sleep. They make you unconscious but it is not sleep. It's more comparable to being knocked out with a baseball bat. Avoid sleep drugs like the plague unless you're talking to a doctor with special training regarding sleep. Most doctors have almost no training on sleep and don't understand or respect its importance.

- I find my exercise levels very important to my sleep quantity and quality and notice a definite decline when I stop exercising. Try to exercise every day, even if its just a long (half hour plus) walk outdoors. Try to vigorously exercise an absolute minimum of twice a week though if your regular exercise is rather relaxed.

- Take up mindfulness meditation. Meditating will teach you the tools you need to recognize when you're unproductively lost in thought and break out of it. This is vital for me being able to fall asleep as thinking about work or other random mental rabbit holes is a big barrier to me personally falling asleep. Mindfulness helps you develop the mental superpower of saying "Oh, I don't actually want to think about that. Let's drop this train of thought." Also, it will help you manage your stress levels throughout the day which is very important for sleep.

- Invest in earplugs. It can make a real difference. Though, I do worry that I'm becoming a bit dependant on mine.

- Develop a strict sleep schedule and stick to it. Even on the weekends. Bounding around what time you fall asleep will destroy your ability to sleep reliably.

Hope some of that is helpful to someone.

User23• 7 years ago

Buy the best bed, mattress, pillows, and sheets you can afford, because that makes a huge difference. Climbing into bed should feel refreshingly comfy.

jaden• 7 years ago

Here's what I did:

- Make your bedroom dark, quiet and cool

- Get a memory foam pillow

- Install blue-light filter on your phone, laptop or desktop (Twilight on Android, f.lux on Mac & Windows)

- Have your Vitamin D levels checked, take supplements if necessary

- Take 0.3 mg of Melatonin if you're having trouble sleeping

- Read Say Good Night to Insomnia [0]

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Say-Good-Night-Insomnia-Drug-Free/dp/...

csa• 7 years ago

What does your caffeine/stimulant intake look like? Try cutting all stimulants if you use any.

What does your exercise schedule look like? Try (at least at the beginning) light exercise for an hour a day and at least several hours before you go to bed. This can be activities as simple as brisk walking.

Try going to sleep and waking up at the same time every day.

Good luck!

vonholstein• 7 years ago

Apart from the other excellent suggestions here:

- check CO2 levels in your bedroom - allergens(dust,pollen, etc) in your sleeping environment can cause breathing problems. - Acid reflux can also cause sleep issues. I've had good results raising the head of the bed by 6 inches to reduce this. - For daytime energy I've had very good results with supplemental potassium(500mg x 3). High daytime energy means more activity, which makes you tired, which makes falling asleep as night easier.

lurquer• 7 years ago

Sex.

snow_mac• 7 years ago

CPAP and naked

lgregg• 7 years ago

I have found if I sleep with the room lights on or being woken up by the sun I feel much more rested.

temny• 7 years ago

In my experience sleeping with lights on causes more shallow sleep. I confirm it is easier to wake up, but after several days in a row I felt more tired than usually.

I found that blocking all sources of light during sleep and using light to make it easier to wake up works best for me.

laurieg2• 7 years ago

Very well thank you.

To be a little more serious, I sleep around 8 hours a night, usually from around 10 or 11 until 6 or 7. This fits well with sunset and sunrise times most of the year.

The biggest "hack" for me is getting up at the same time everyday. If you stay up an hour later or go to sleep a little earlier it's no big deal. Don't worry about waking up at night too, it's no big deal unless it's excessive.

Exercise helps. As does sleep hygiene. No screens in bed.

I don't think you need to buy a fancy pillow or mattress. I sleep on a cheap mat on the floor and it's fine.

YCstartup1• 7 years ago

If you stay up an hour later it's no big deal: so sometimes you go to sleep at midnight and wake up at 7?

laurieg2• 7 years ago

Exactly. When you are well rested and in a good routine you can have late nights and be ok. Just watch out for the things that come with late nights: excessive alcohol, eating lots of food late etc.

tmm84• 7 years ago

I fixed my sleep by doing the following things:

#1: No before bed bad emotions or anxiety. Anything that'll get me anxious, angry or cause a fight mentally is stuff I try to avoid well before bed. (If you are married do not engage in conversation that can lead to an argument.)

#2: Make sure the room is cool and get a blanket. If the room is hot or the blanket too thick it'll make sleep uncomfortable at best.

#3: If you want to watch something before bed then it had better be boring. Boring stuff makes you want to stop watching something so you'll be less interested in that and more interested in sleeping. To make it easier, use an auto power-off mode for the device so you'll sleep without thinking about turning something off.

Those three helped me a lot.

HNLurker2• 7 years ago

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y2ftihdStck

... according to the military also it works

whereareyouwow• 7 years ago

Any floor sleepers out there?

avichalp• 7 years ago

I am currently working on it. Cutting caffeine didn't have much impact on my sleep. Meditating and taking a long walk kept anxiety levels in check that helped me sleep better. Further reflections here: http://avichalp.me/2019/04/06/debugging-sleep.html

Ask HN: How Do You Sleep?

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