Ask YC: "Can a 40 year old, married with 3 children, start a start-up?"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=190968

by whiten • 18 years ago

27 72 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I have been just watching this site for a few months now. I even bought 'Hackers and Painters', even after reading most of the essays online!

I would like to know what people think of the following two points: 1) Is it best to be young as you tend to have fewer commitments etc? 2) Having little or no money, or being frugal is good. Keeps you focused!

I fail on the first point, but I am a winner on the second!

What do you think? Should I go for it anyway?

edw5197• 18 years ago

Age, marital status, and personal situation have much less to do with it than you may think.

Removing the word "fail" from you vocabulary have much more to do with it than you think.

Go for it!

whiten14• 18 years ago

Are you suggesting that the 'fear of failure' is a major reason why people don't make the leap?

I have to say, I think you are correct.

Fear of failure is HUGE.

Imagine if I had a fear of failure.... what could be the outcome?

1) Leave current job (it pays the bills etc.) 2) Start new venture 3) Fail! (I have deliberately shortcut the possible reasons - so bear with me!) 4) No money comes in.... 5) Can't pay bills..... 6) Lose home etc etc

I believe the people who study this type of thought process would call it the Domesday scenario!

I guess success would be called the 'Google scenario'!?

I can't remove the word fail from my vocabulary - just try and make succeed more likely - how?

edw5197• 18 years ago

"I can't remove the word fail from my vocabulary"

You could start by removing the word "can't" from your vocabulary.

alex_c• 18 years ago

Isn't the following a more accurate doomsday scenario?

1) Leave current job (it pays the bills etc.)

2) Start new venture

3) Fail!

4) Get a new job

5) Goto 1)

kyro• 18 years ago

Yes, of course you can.

Sure, being younger allows for more time, but I'd imagine being that age has given you some maturity in handling finances, emotions, etc. I'm sure you'll have to make some sacrifices seeing that you have many commitments and responsibilities, but if it's something you truly want to do, go for it.

At the very least, you'll enjoy the ride, and when things get tough, you'll have your wife and children to find happiness in. And if you're successful, great. Either way, it'll be a journey that I'm sure you wouldn't want to regret never taking down the line.

noel_gomez• 18 years ago

I am in the same boat. This year I will turn 35 and have not yet started anything. I think fear has something to do with it and the other is finding the technical talent to help bring ideas to fruition. I am pretty sure that having had work experience will definitely be beneficial.

As far as having a family to support goes, I have 2 kids and I am pretty sure I can't leave my job even though my wife works. That just means I would have to do something part time, which in the end may be better. I read an article where an entrepreneur spoke about the fact that founders will put a lot of energy into their startup and not develop a balanced life from the outset. That only puts you in a mode where work will always consume a lot of your time and you will not be able to break that cycle. At least if you work 2 jobs for a short period of time, you know at some point you will quit one of them.

brentr2• 18 years ago

I respond with a simple question: Are you alive?

I am not trying to be rude, overly simple, or anything else that may be viewed as a negative response. I am simply trying to clear away all of the clutter.

whiten14• 18 years ago

Yes - I believe I am!

Could you expand/clarify a little?

brentr2• 18 years ago

If you are alive, then you have the ability to sit down and pursue this. Failure versus success is a completely different argument.

EDIT: What I am trying to get is across is this--the only thing that would be stopping you is you. Who cares if you are beyond are a certain age?

pstuart2• 18 years ago

I hope so. I'm in the same boat (plus a couple years) and have my sights set on doing a startup as well.

That said, I wish I had pursued this 20 years ago when I had more time, energy, and freedom -- but I guess I wasn't ready then.

whiten14• 18 years ago

I appreciate the response.

Can I ask what you are doing about it?

pstuart2• 18 years ago

Right now I'm actually focusing on getting a new job (laid off just recently). I have a potential partner (same age/situation) who is not a hacker but would be a good compliment to my skillset.

I have a vision for a product that would hopefully rock the project management landscape. If only I had 6 months locked with a fellow coder... I'll have to settle for a couple hours a day trying to make a convincing demo to sell the dream.

blogimus• 18 years ago

You can ask yourself this, "Do you regret more the things you have wanted to do and have not done or regret more the things you have done and wished you didn't?"

If you want more motivation, look on the web for older people who started businesses.

dennykmiu2• 18 years ago

Does your wife work? If yes, may be. If no, forget it.

I am 52 with two kids and I have been doing startups for the last 15 years. You need support from your family and you need good health. It is hard for the family to support you emotionally unless they are financially secured.

edw5197• 18 years ago

"good health"

Thanks for mentioning this. People don't normally think of their health until they lose it. It's so important that I'd represent it like this...

Probability of success = (a + b + c + ... + z) * health

dennykmiu2• 18 years ago

The best advice that I ever received regarding startups is that one needs to think in terms of a three-legged stool, with one leg being our family, one leg being our health and the last one being our career. If two are firm on the ground, we have a fighting chance fixing the third. Otherwise, forget it.

len• 18 years ago

NO! You have already failed by the fact that you need to ask the question.

If you need someone else to convince you to do a startup you are in the wrong game.

edw5197• 18 years ago

Uh, he may have averted failure by asking the question.

I wonder how many never ask and never try.

whiten14• 18 years ago

A fair point!

Actually what I was attempting here was to try and question the thinking behind when we can and can't do things that we wish to do.

I don't need anyone to convince me, I was trying to challenge the general perceptions of when you can start a start-up.

I never think a question is a 'stupid question', and I also don't think asking a question is a failure.

fugue882• 18 years ago

"... I was trying to challenge the general perceptions of when you can start a start-up."

I prefer to think in terms of "personal industry" rather than "startup." Personal industry used to be the normal case, with people building their own house, planting their own fields, and so on. I think it's rather odd and sad that so many of us get caught up in corporate life. I have more feelings about this, but am having trouble articulating them

Anyway, to answer the when?: Until I'm so old and decrepit that my children are taking care of me.

bigtoga2• 18 years ago

Money and time are huge things here that we have no data on. 1) Do you have enough money saved up to support your family for two years and to support the launch + operation of your idea? If not, then no problem - just do it part-time for 2-3 years until you can go full-time.

2) Are you willing to commit 20 hours a week part-time or 60 hours a week full time? If "No" to whichever is appropriate then I'd say that you would find it difficult to succeed regardless of other circumstances.

Best of luck to you!

white• 18 years ago

If you are waiting for other people to give you an answer, you're probably not ready, yet, despite on your age and life experience.

whiten14• 18 years ago

I am not.

Just trying to get people thinking.

Thanks anyway.

bigtoga2• 18 years ago

I don't know why your comment was downmodded. It's a valid opinion IMO.

projectileboy• 18 years ago

My dad did. I was the third of three and one year old when my dad started a business to manufacture a high-quality version of a (then) novel electric motor which he designed and patented. He and his partner built the company to about 50 employees and then sold the business to a large industrial conglomerate a few years later.

I'm now 36, happily married with three kids of my own. I'm bgeinning something along the 37 Signals route - 10 hours a week until I have critical mass.

Overall, I must grudgingly admit that youth has the advantage, so I think us oldsters have to leverage the advantages we do have - experience, money and connections.

whiten14• 18 years ago

Thank-you and good luck.

My father also started a business (furniture manufacturer!), way back in 1977, when I was only 9.

What I have noticed is that the phrase over here (in England - maybe applies in the US), 'You only get out what you put in'.

fugue882• 18 years ago

The US version might be "you reap what you sow," which I like because crops produce more than what they were planted with.

Pick a venture that lets you get out more than you put in, eh?

blender• 18 years ago

Would highly recommend you read Barry Moltz's: "You Need to be a Little Crazy":

http://www.amazon.com/You-Need-Be-Little-Crazy/dp/079318018X...

I'm 39.5 with 3 kids and working at my 3rd startup. You make sacrifices and I'd be lying if I said my marriage hasn't been strained at times mostly due to financial worries.

It really comes down to this:

“If you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what is within you will destroy you.”

You have to bring it forth!

Cheers

gruseom2• 18 years ago

If you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what is within you will destroy you.

Wow, a quote from the Gnostic gospels. Very cool. Here is another:

His disciples questioned him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?" Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate."

I've often thought of that when I was in work situations where I really did not want to be.

whiten14• 18 years ago

And what did you do?

nostrademons2• 18 years ago

Probably. Don't know your situation, and I'm not 40 anyway, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

One thing I've noticed, having worked for startups with older founders: when you're over 35, it's to your advantage to start a different kind of company. When you're in your early 20s, it makes sense to swing for the fences with a new consumer idea that's wildly innovative and nobody really understands. That way, your lack of experience isn't really a drawback (nobody knows what they're doing, so the fact that you don't know either isn't a significant problem) and your youthful energy lets you discover and explore the market faster than all your older competitors. Plus, much of your peer group consists of people who are open to new ideas and will be "growing into" your market. You can understand them better than older folks. And you can live on less money, which is important, because new markets usually don't involve much cash.

When you're over 35, it makes more sense to leverage your existing experience and network and go into a field close to your existing job - often, your first customer will be your last employer. Start small with something you can sell for cash, quickly, and then leverage your network to expand to other customers. You're protected from all the young tykes because you know the market and technology better than they do, and you fend off the big companies by concentrating on a niche that's unprofitable for them to devote much attention to.

This, of course, depends upon having experience and contacts to leverage. If you spent your whole career working as a janitor, it may be pretty difficult to start a company, unless you've discovered a new more efficient way to mop floors. But if you've spent your whole career as a sysadmin, it makes a lot of sense to build server administration software that does your job, only better.

keating2• 18 years ago

Your 35 cutoff seems ridiculously arbitrary and ageist.

If anything, more experience means more exposure to more ideas and thus gives you an advantage in coming up with something innovative. There is more cross-pollination.

This is a function of time and effort and so only loosely correlated with age.

michaelneale2• 18 years ago

Also, hopefully, more money/financial security with a bit of age. I am nearly 34, own own house, car, etc etc... nice to have that bit of security. But I guess in big cities you are a wage slave for a long long time, so its a harder jump to make.

ph0rque• 18 years ago

Great advice, as usual. This seems like a good point in the conversation to throw in an idea: are any of the "oldsters" willing to pair up with the "youngsters" to try and get the benefits of each age? As an older "youngster", I'd love to talk to someone who's in the 30s or 40s about possible cofoundership (I'm in the NC triangle area).

mixmax• 18 years ago

Yes - I've thought about the same thing. Unfortunately I'm in Europe.

whiten14• 18 years ago

Thank-you.

Forget the silly ageist remark above - I know what you were trying to say - and you did it well.

daniel-cussen2• 18 years ago

Janitor => plumbing company, perhaps?

jalam1001• 18 years ago

Sure you can. Here is a write up that shows that most of the startups are done by older educated people.

http://randomthougts101.blogspot.com/2008/05/education-and-t...

The young college drop outs starting extremely successful companies is an exception not a rule.

aditya• 18 years ago

Sure - this guy did: http://www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/2006/10/introducing_out.h...

bmaier• 18 years ago

Can a dog with 3 legs walk? Yeah, but its more difficult than if it had 4 legs.

whiten14• 18 years ago

Why? - surely it's more efficient, and should therefore be encouraged!

johnnygekko• 18 years ago

you set your limits on your own mind, just be equally idealistic as realistic.

noonespecial• 18 years ago

As a start-upper with wife and kids I have some perspective to add. Our startup essentially began on the day my first child was born. I was running back and forth between the hospital and a pair of sales offices arranging a demo for our first large corporate client. We did land the contract, I was there for the birth of my son. It was the most stressful day I've ever had.

Here's the advice: Its not just you starting the startup.

If I had a different kind of wife, someone timid, fearful or unwilling to adjust from a standard of living to which she had become accustomed, my startup would have been impossible.

Your wife has to have the bug as well even if shes not directly involved. If instead you get a "whatever you want dear as long as we still have enough money for X (soccer, preschool, shoe-shopping, cabletv... whatever), you are already done.

The two of you can do it together. You can't do it alone. The bright side? You've already got your co-founder. That might also be the downside.

clintavo2• 18 years ago

Whiten,

You can definitely do it. My story might help encourage you a bit.

Being a bit older when you start your business can work to your advantage. The reason? You've probably had time to work in another field and see real-world needs in some particular niche. These would be unmet needs that recent graduates might not be able to see. The younger guys do amazing things that blow my mind, but there are tons of opportunities that are overlooked because they are smaller (but still HIGHLY profitable) demographics that don't entice those who want to "change the world."

(I started writing this and then notice that nostrademons made virtually the same point, so I just want to "second" what nostrademons said.)

In my particular case, I worked at an art gallery and over the course of a decade learned the art business inside and out. I now have connections throughout the art industry. About seven years ago, I got the idea to build a little web application helps painters build websites and market their artwork online.

(BTW - I have been astounded at the similarities I, as an aspiring hacker, have with my painter customers, and just within the past few months I've learned of PG's book "Hackers and Painters.")

At first, I only had 5-6 hours ONE DAY A WEEK to devote to developing the application. I had to learn everything. I hadn't programmed seriously in over a decade, so progress was very slow at first. Still, within two months I had my first customer.

I continued to build the application following my one-day-a-week schedule for years. I wasn't willing to give up my job income, so I just kept my little web application going on the side and spent roughly 5 hours a week improving it on my days off.

At the end of year one I had 30 customers. At the end of year 2 I had 60. Year 3? 120 customers (see a pattern?). At the end of year 4 I had 240 customers and finally had the courage to go full-time.

That was three years ago and today I have 2,000 customers - enough to provide a good income for me and my employees . . . and still growing. And I finally get do do what all hackers want to do...code! I now code at least five hours a day (although when my wife is out of town, that number balloons to 36 hour marathons, BTW - thank God you have a wife.....it forces you to have a life too).

I highly respect the 37 Signals crew and I agree with them: Don't focus on building a STARTUP, focus on building a BUSINESS.

If there is a niche or industry that you have deep knowledge of....that will help you as nostrademons said above. You will have knowledge and hopefully, connections. It generally puts you in a situation where you have much less competition. And even the competition you do have isn't likely to be as knowledgeable about your customers' needs as you are. In my situation, I generally know how artists need to market their artwork better than they do (and providing that help to them is part of our service).

Is this route slower? Yes. Is it safer? Of course. But, it my case, I couldn't afford to simply quit my job, so it was the only route possible.

When I started I wasn't really even planning on it to become a full time venture, so chances are, you could start on the side and get profitable in a fraction of the time it took me. I knew nothing about building an online company. The fact that you are following and posting on "Hacker News" shows that you light-years ahead of where I was when I started out.

coglethorpe• 18 years ago

What a great story. Thanks for inspiring me.

jimbokun• 18 years ago

"(BTW - I have been astounded at the similarities I, as an aspiring hacker, have with my painter customers, and just within the past few months I've learned of PG's book "Hackers and Painters.")"

And the fact that the original idea that pg and Robert Morris had for an online business was an online art gallery.

clintavo2• 18 years ago

Yeah, I've really enjoyed reading PG's essays, especially "How Art Can Be Good". I wish I could get all of my artist customers to read that one.

I think their original idea was actually a web app/site builder for existing art galleries not an online art gallery that they would run.

abstractbill• 18 years ago

A good friend of mine did a successful startup (acquired by AOL for about $50MM a couple of years back) when he was 40, with a wife and two kids. Go for it.

Here's a video of him giving us some startup advice at justin.tv: http://www.justin.tv/hackertv/58652/Tech_Talk__3_Adam_Beguel...

jwynia• 18 years ago

The average age for a company founder in the United States is ... 39. That means there are plenty both above and below that age.

gibsonf1• 18 years ago

I'm 42 with a 4 year old daughter and doing it. It was very painful until we got our app functional as using the app itself helped me get a lot more done in less time. The most important thing is to have sufficient money to take the plunge - I ended up selling all my art and my yacht to keep going through the hard period.

theoneill• 18 years ago

Can your kids hack?

ujj• 18 years ago

I think age really is an important factor in starting business and it works to ones advantage depending on the kind of business as well. For starters, I don't think there is any substitute for experience and like kyro said, it also gives one a certain level of maturity in dealing with issues like finances and emotions. Especially family, which tends to get ignored (to say the least) if you are a twenty something hacker working 28X6 in your mum's garage.

I have personally felt a little off balance seeing people lose color when they see me in person. Since my business requires a lot of off line interaction with people, they generally become a little wary on seeing someone in tees and jeans. If you are going for such a business, your age, and more importantly your maturity will be your biggest asset.

maxklein• 18 years ago

It's called starting a company. People do it all the time.

wlievens• 18 years ago

You're married with 3 children? Is that LEGAL?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

People start up businesses at all ages in other sectors, I don't see why one couldn't for our tech industry.

newsvend• 18 years ago

er.. I am 47 with three little ones and started a new business last year. It has started fantastically, and there is no way it will fall over, recession or no recession, with all the general business experience I have picked up over the years. Not to mention confidence. Have some of mine.

papa• 18 years ago

Go for it!!! Don't let anyone tell you that you are too old to do it.

I'm 36 - over-the-hill by startup standards ;-) - am married and have 2 kids.

The biggest issue to overcome is fear and losing the corporate financial/benefits lifeline (significant obstacles when you have kids).

But honestly, if you can handle kids you can handle a startup. I work all day while my kids are in school and then after they're asleep, I work more. The startup is kinda like another kid. It ain't easy and I won't deny the younger startup founder will have more energy and time. But don't forget that quality of time is a big, big factor! And if you LOVE what you're doing, tinkering on your product/business/whatever won't feel like work (even when it's consuming every waking hour that you're not dealing with the spouse or with the kids).

Feel free to ping me if you ever want to chat about it!

chrysb• 18 years ago

Yes, if you want to spend no time on the wife the the three children.

It's never too late, but you need to lift anchor and set sail!

rfnock• 18 years ago

Be sure your wife is on board all the way. Starting a startup is more difficult than you think and will take longer than you expect. It will be her journey as well.

Ask YC: "Can a 40 year old, married with 3 children, start a start-up?"

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