My experiment with smart drugs: Viagra for the brain?

http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=1298

by robg • 18 years ago

134 114 18 years ago

I did a similar experiment about 5 years ago and didn't experience any of the same effects. In my experience provigil was only good for what it was designed for - staying up for long stretches of time.

breck2• 18 years ago

I took it for about 15 days last year when I was having trouble staying awake and was definitely more relaxed and productive. I think that was a result of just having a lot more time in the day.

The first few days I only slept about 1-3 hours per night. I would lie in bed for 30 minutes then get really bored and so I'd read, work, or clean our apartment. Since I had 20 hours a day, I never felt pressed for time and was pretty relaxed. It's pretty cool to have time to do laundry, clean, run errands, spend hours hanging out, read a book or two, exercise, and work all in one day.

I remember being scared the first night when for over 40 hours not only had I not slept, i wasn't even tired.

However, over time the effects wore off and I returned to sleeping 6 hours or so a night. Still less than normal, but at that point the (risk of) side effects outweighed the extra two hours of time per day.

alaskamiller• 18 years ago

Try humping multiple kilometers through mountain ranges on provigil on a 3-day training mission. It was one of the worst things I've had to do. Being tired and being in a state of living death because of drugs are bad. Drugs are bad, kids, mmmmkay?

mechanical_fish2• 18 years ago

Brains. They're just not that well standardized. Sometimes it's really hard to get parts.

mojuba3• 18 years ago

LSD is said to improve analytical abilities. The "improved state" can last weeks or even months, although it is difficult to say if the change is permanent or not, as some claim.

There is a conspiracy theory also, that this particular quality of LSD caused its ban in 60s-70s.

(Actually, there is a legal substance with similar effects discovered not long ago, and I thought it might be used in psychotherapy the same way LSD was used before the ban.)

mooneater• 18 years ago

I would like to read more about this. Do you have a citation re: LSD and analytical abilities?

mojuba3• 18 years ago

This book http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/staf3.htm seems to be (briefly) covering many aspects of it.

AndyKelley2• 18 years ago

From what I understand, LSD makes you think you have an improved state, and that you understand things more clearly, but in reality you don't. Much like drunk drivers claiming that the alcohol actually improves their reaction time and driving skill.

johnyzee• 18 years ago

I don't think that's controversial. It makes you think (way, way) out of the box.

It's the same reason people smoke pot for creativity - you come up with weird ideas and some are really good. Of course, only to begin with do you know what the good stuff is. Then you end up like this: http://www.familyguyx.net/episode/deep_throats/link_102/

petercooper2• 18 years ago

> there is a legal substance

Which is..?

rms5• 18 years ago

Hey, shoot me an email, don't want to get into the discussion on this forum.

mojuba3• 18 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromo-DragonFly

In fact... Erowid.org says Dragonfly is sometimes sold as LSD to those who can't tell the difference.

jawngee2• 18 years ago

I use provigil when I'm on a work bender or playing poker. Helps a lot, no increase in anxiety, in fact I barely notice I've taken it except for the fact that concentration/focus is through the roof.

As most everyone knows, I'm a total stoner, so I won't get into that except to state that it's been nothing but positive on the quality of my work as well as quantity. But there is direct causality with the quality and variety of bud in question.

I don't drink alcohol, nor do I do any other drugs. Although I did a lion's share of ecstasy and LSD back in the early 90's.

mrtron2• 18 years ago

I appreciate the bluntness (excuse the pun) of your post. This issue is very difficult to talk about on a public forum such as this due to legalities and individuals' preconceived notions. It is interesting to see your specific experiences with these substances.

kirubakaran4• 18 years ago

While I certainly appreciate that you are sharing knowledge, I hope you will understand that I am a bit skeptical because I don't have first hand experience. So, entrepreneurs in Amsterdam should, on the average, be more productive than, say, those in Silicon Valley?

( Please don't take this as an assholic comment though it sounds like that. Just curious... Also see my startup angle ;) )

steveplace• 18 years ago

I would think that drug culture in San Francisco would be up there with A-dam. ;)

jawngee2• 18 years ago

Not saying it's for everyone, just saying it's worked for me.

Moderation is key, of course.

bprater• 18 years ago

The only legally tolerated drugs in Amsterdam are marijuana and mushrooms. You can't even buy Nyquil there.

me2i81• 18 years ago

Just how much ecstasy and LSD does a typical lion take?

byrneseyeview2• 18 years ago

They prefer to maneline heroin.

riso• 18 years ago

Where do you buy it from?

jonnytran3• 18 years ago

... says a potential buyer ;-)

byrneseyeview2• 18 years ago

Much much more of the same here:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Modafinil.shtml

The quality of these reports is uneven, but the quantity should give you a better sample (especially if you want to know what happens when you mix it with Adderall, metadone, ecstasy, mushrooms, etc.)

kirubakaran4• 18 years ago

  Man: (calling in panic) Doctor, I ate Viagra but I can't find my wife anywhere.
  Doc: Don't you have a maid?
  Man: Come on doc, I don't need Viagra when I'm with the maid.

May be the problem lies elsewhere.

asnyder• 18 years ago

While an interesting project can get you excited to work on something, I doubt it can simulate all the neurological receptors that this drug can. The great Paul Erdos was known for his use of amphetamines throughout his life, and after a period of voluntary abstinence famously said, "Before, when I looked at a piece of blank paper my mind was filled with ideas. Now all I see is a blank piece of paper."

antiform• 18 years ago

I actually think the two sentences that follow that quote reveal a lot more about Paul Erdos.

"You've showed me I'm not an addict. But I didn't get any work done. I'd get up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I'd have no ideas, just like an ordinary person. You've set mathematics back a month."

(http://www.untruth.org/~josh/papers/Paul%20Erd%F6s%20bio-rev...)

kashif• 18 years ago

You may find "The Happiness Hypothesis" by Johnathan Haidt of some interest.

mattmaroon3• 18 years ago

"I think it’s a stupid thing to do, because you shouldn’t ever take drugs you don’t need."

Amen sister.

mrtron2• 18 years ago

Replace 'take drugs' with 'eat food', 'write software', 'go on runs', 'learn skills'.

Now also define 'need'.

I think blanket statements like this are ignorant. The vast majority of the population takes drugs they don't need, if you define drinking coffee/tea (for caffeine) or smoking or drinking alcohol as taking drugs.

aaronblohowiak4• 18 years ago

Just because most people do it doesn't make it right.

Caffeine, nicotine and alcohol are drugs, anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves.

mattmaroon3• 18 years ago

I don't think it's fair to lump writing software into the same category as substances that alter your brain's chemistry. To my knowledge, no permanent negative side effects were ever cause by, say, coding a social network for drugs.

I suppose it's ignorant if you take it out of context and then broadly define drugs. But I'm pretty sure it was meant (in context) more for prescription drugs, or more specifically, ones that alter the brain's chemistry.

ambition2• 18 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect

robg• 18 years ago

He says it's been tested relative to placebo (I imagine only for its on-label use).

ambition2• 18 years ago

Right. Assuming the Wikipedia article is to be believed, the results relative to some of the effects he claimed were unsubstantial. A dramatic overall effect on cognitive function was not found. In the article, he talked about studying a textbook for hours straight, where he hadn't been able to do that before. My accusation of placebo effect is not to say the drug is useless, it's more against the specific claims such as that one in the article and "worked for me" claims made in other comments on this thread.

In general, if do something expecting some effect, and you get that effect, it's not something to talk about.

KirinDave2• 18 years ago

If you'd bother to research it even slightly, you'd see there are placebo-controlled trials. I am not a qualified physician in this field, but I got ahold of some of the information and the methodology seemed solid, except in the case of a few off studies.

Go research for yourself: http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/Modafinil?query=Prov...

k7lim• 18 years ago

the author can improve this article greatly by learning how to spell the name of the drug.

perhaps there are some side-effects that affect the ability to read and write.

jsrn2• 18 years ago

I'm somewhat unsure about the 'online pharmacy' thing. Has anyone here ordered Provigil from an online pharmacy that ships to Europe? How do you evaluate these pharmacies? I don't want to get misslabeled pills etc...

rms5• 18 years ago

http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

Basically Modafanil is really hard to get in the USA without a legitimate prescription because the DEA/customs are really good about finding scheduled drugs in the mail. In the USA you will probably need to do a service where you pay an online pharmacist/doctor to do a consultation and prescribe you the medication.

Europe is easier.

rms5• 18 years ago

http://www.pharma-orders.com/product_info.php?cPath=33&p...

this one might work, good luck and godspeed

te_platt2• 18 years ago

Somehow this part of the article bothered me: "But isn’t that cheating? What’s the difference between Progivil for students and steroids for athletes?"

Is it cheating for tall people to play basketball? Should smart people take a drug to make them stupid for a test - to make things "fair"? If provigil really doesn't have long term negative effects it seems to me like it should be welcomed.

Using technology to change our natural abilities seems to evoke a certain amount of fear. More so than is explained by fear of potential negative long term effects. Why should that be?

edw519• 18 years ago

The cheating angle has nothing to do with "fairness". It has everything to do with "safety".

Linemen in the National Football League are good examples. Performance enhancing substances (especially steroids) give such significant advantages over opponents, at one time you had to take them to compete and keep your job. Twenty years later your health failed, partially from your occupation but mainly from the drugs. Many great linemen from the 70's and 80's are dead now.

No one should ever have that dilemma, therefore the ban.

te_platt2• 18 years ago

Right. I understand that part. Same reason why professional cyclists wear helmets. Helmets slow you down a bit but everyone would rather wear one for safety even if they wouldn't because they would take the risk for a better chance of winning.

Still thats not quite my question. Getting braces for your teeth seems to be ok. Some people are uncomfortable with breast implants while others think they're great (insert your own joke here). What about surgery to make you smarter? In my gut that seems wrong but I'm not sure why.

keating4• 18 years ago

It has nothing to do with safety, it has to do with PR for the so-called war on drugs.

If they were legal it would be easy to find a doctor to supervise your enhancement regimen, making it safer. As it is, people still take them, without medical supervision.

And sports profit from that. How many millions did Baseball make off McGwire and Bonds breaking the home run record? Fan interest went way up. And NFL players are plenty juiced.

There are numerous types of steroids, with different side-effects and levels of safety. Then there are banned substances like HGH, which is extremely beneficial with no significant side-effects for most people in reasonable dosages.

Further proof it's a PR stunt and not about safety: Weed is banned. It's about a million times safer than getting sacked by one of those linebackers. If they care about safety they should switch to Flag Football.

mickt2• 18 years ago

Reminds me of a scifi short story I read years ago, I forgot the author's name. But, the story was set in a future US where all people were create equal and should be equal and people who were really good at something had to have some hindrance to make them averagely equal. One line I remember was:

"the ballerina must have been exceptionally beautiful and gifted good due to mask and the number of weights weighting her down"

pstuart• 18 years ago

Harrison Bergeron, by Kurt Vonnegut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

markbao2• 18 years ago

Ah, that's why results for it were sparse on Google.

It's Provigil, not Progivil.

kirubakaran4• 18 years ago

Side effects include dyslexia?

m0nty2• 18 years ago

"As with any drug, Provigil has side effects. According to the [UK govt], the list is substantial, including nervousness, insomnia, excitation, irritability, tremors, dizziness and headaches. It may also cause "gastrointestinal disturbances", including nausea and abdominal pain, dry mouth, loss of appetite and cardiovascular effects such as high blood pressure, palpitations and tachycardia - a fast heart beat."

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,,127...

Still tempting for hitting immediate deadlines, but I'd be very reluctant to use it long-term.

keating4• 18 years ago

Aren't insomnia and excitation the point?

Funny to see insomnia listed as a side effect of Provigil.

dcurtis• 18 years ago

If you look at the research, though, there are a few reports of patients having severe insomnia for weeks or months after moderate doses of provigil.

m0nty2• 18 years ago

"Funny to see insomnia listed as a side effect of Provigil."

I take your point, but (having experienced severe nervous insomnia for a while) I wouldn't wish it on anyone, except perhaps a narcoleptic :)

subwindow• 18 years ago

I've been experimenting with "smart drugs" (nootropics) for a few weeks. Piracetam, vinpocetine, aniracetam, inositol and choline. Varying effects, so far. Ranging from the equivalent of a cup of coffee (without the stimulant side effects), to extremely different "brain feels". None of them have (so far- I'm still experimenting) changed my productivity or memory drastically.

I don't view it as anything other than an experiment to see if my brain is underachieving in its normal state. So far, I'm reasonably satisfied with the conclusion.

I'd like to try provigil, but it is prescription only. Is there any way to get it semi-legally without a prescription?

bigtoga• 18 years ago

Look for rms' post on this page

markbao2• 18 years ago

Provigil, the brand name of the drug Modafinil, is unfortunately illegal to import without a prescription in the United States. [1]

And strange side effects listed... "PROVIGIL may cause you to have a serious rash or a serious allergic reaction that may result in hospitalization or be life-threatening. If you develop a rash, hives, sores, swelling, or trouble swallowing or breathing, stop taking PROVIGIL and call your doctor right away or get emergency treatment." [2]

Lastly, more side effects: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=provigil+more:drug_...

Interesting drug. Sounds great, but I wouldn't take it, though.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Legal_status

[2] http://www.provigil.com/pat/important-safety-info.html

minus1• 18 years ago

Adrafinil is a similar, but unregulated drug. Legal in the US without a prescription.

So, if you're planning on experimenting, at least avoid a felony charge.

Prrometheus2• 18 years ago

I often wonder whether or not one could get similar effects through meditation. When I was doing regular Buddhist meditation exercises, I felt that I had an increased level of concentration. The disadvantages are that meditation is much harder than taking a pill and the effects might not be as strong. The advantages are that meditation has no harmful long-term side effects and has much longer lasting positive effects than any drug that temporarily alters brain chemistry. Meditation causes long-term changes in brain structure and function.

KirinDave2• 18 years ago

I'm pretty sure if narcolepsy could be controlled by meditation people would do it. Clearly Modafinil has a measurable clinical effect that no amount of wu can reproduce.

I was surprised how well tested it is, given this off-label use. It's a reasonably tested drug: http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/Modafinil?query=Prov...

jraines2• 18 years ago

Right -- I'll give you one guess what happens when narcoleptics try to meditate.

richcollins• 18 years ago

How do you know that long-term changes in brain structure and function do not include harmful side effects?

Tichy2• 18 years ago

"I decided to take three days off, to see what would happen. It was easy."

I recently had this thought that being easy to wean off might just be another trick played by drugs to keep us addicted. For example, I have several times weaned off coffee for a month. It was easy, too, but here I am, still drinking coffee (again). Since it is so easy to wean off it, I can just stop tomorrow, so why not have another cup today...?

Also, it seems that some schools "addiction research" only consider something a relapse if it happens after 6 months not taking the drugs. So anything below 6 months is not even considered as "weaned off".

icey2• 18 years ago

If you ever seriously question this, try picking up smoking and quitting. Or, it's possible that you don't have the appropriate brain chemistry to get addicted to things easily.

Tichy2• 18 years ago

I don't understand the experiment? I guess I would not be able to quit smoking easily? But that wouldn't show me anything? Could be that coffee does the "easy to wean off" deception, and smoking doesn't. I suspect there are more coffee drinkers than smokers in the world (no idea, though).

mechanical_fish2• 18 years ago

If you ever seriously question this, try picking up smoking and quitting.

HTML needs a <rhetorical> tag for statements like this. Your follow up posts make this clear, but just for the record: For the love of god, do not try picking up smoking and quitting! ;)

Ironically, though, I did have a friend that craved cigarettes only when he was really, really drunk. He would smoke at those times, but never wanted to smoke any other time. Lucky for him he's not an alcoholic, or he'd be in a race to see if the lung cancer or the liver disease would kill him first.

scott_s• 18 years ago

Depends how much coffee you drink a day. In my experience, one or two cups isn't enough to cause noticeable withdrawal.

LogicHoleFlaw3• 18 years ago

Also, it seems that some schools "addiction research" only consider something a relapse if it happens after 6 months not taking the drugs.

It can take a long time for a substance to work its way out of the body, and even longer for one behavior to be replaced with another.

lst2• 18 years ago

In 1st place, who is Viagra? Never seen her.

sabat• 18 years ago

She hangs with my sisters Levitra and Cialis.

lst2• 18 years ago

BTW, I think PG is 'very happy' for finally having the 'V' word on the front page...

sealedidentity• 18 years ago

I am sorely tempted to try out these memory pills. Days used to be when I was preparing to ace my SAT's that I used to take spirulina to flush the system. These days, the designer pills have become more streamlined in their effects. I just wish there's more research done on these drugs. Right now, I'm too chicken to experiment with anything other than passive, non-endocrinal, CNR non-reactive drugs.

DaniFong• 18 years ago

I wonder how the memory recall is on that Quantum/String Theory book (the elegant universe?)

Dr. Wozniak asserts that one of the primary functions of sleep is that of memory consolidation, and I've found his arguments quite persuasive.

For more reading:

http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm#Physiological%20...

halo• 18 years ago

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/200... is one of the best articles I've ever read on modafinil and a much more enjoyable comprehensive read on the same topic than the submitted article IMO.

crxnamja• 18 years ago

cialias advertising.

if you can't find your girlriend, see alice.

brentr• 18 years ago

I find that I have the opposite problem: intense concentration and the ability to stay up for long periods of time. I have to take Tylenol PM just to conform to a normal sleep schedule. I don't know exactly what my natural bodily cycle is, but it is definitely longer than 24 hours.

LogicHoleFlaw3• 18 years ago

There is a lot of natural variance in circadian rhythms. Mine is also much longer than 24 hours. If I let myself go "free-running" then my sleep/wake patterns cycle around 24 hours about once a month. The lengthened cycle is not necessarily unhealthy but it makes it very difficult to conform to a 24-hour schedule. If you have continued difficulty with your sleep cycle then talking to a doctor specializing in sleep disorders might be a good idea. There are a variety of options for dealing with the issue.

AndyKelley2• 18 years ago

I would recommend eating healthily and running 3-4 days per week. It makes you feel great, mentally acute, and you know that you're only going to become healthy and live longer, with no side effects.

eznet• 18 years ago

There is much to be said for exercise, but I still experience significant brain-drain and sluggish performance despite working out 7 days a week(weights 4 days, running 3). Perhaps the combination of physical activity, diet and additional supplements are in order for some individuals. As far as I am concerned, 'to each their own' means more than allowing individuals to decide whats ok for them - sometimes it can mean that 'each's own' is different and what works for some may not be for others.

lg• 18 years ago

diet-wise, about 2.5 of my 5 meals a day are just fruit, and it does wonders for sleep. it's like flipping a switch: eat mostly fruit, sleep 6 hours a night; eat mostly other stuff, sleep 8 hours a night. unfortunately in a couple weeks i'll be in startup mode and probably unable to afford it.

ibsulon• 18 years ago

Will you afford not to have the extra time?

Try to move to seasonal fruits, and add raw seasonal vegetables on top of it. Cut out the meat.

(This is probably what I'll be doing when my bf goes out of the country for a month... or at least, that's what I'm telling myself. :)

strlen• 18 years ago

Yes. Much of what provigil and stimulants do is put you in a state where your body uses up more of your available energy (hence the weight loss aspect of them). This may be a totally illiterate statement, but generally speaking any substance that causes loss of weight (or causes weight to stay the same despite increased consumption and lack of excercise) due to metabolism is going to also cause greater ability to concentrate and a greater mental stamina.

One way you can eat the same amount of calories and either lose weight or gain no weight is by reducing complex carbs in your diet. Avoid things that are high on glycemic index and you won't feel slow: this doesn't meant cut out all carbs! Eat whole wheat bread, brown rice, dark chocolate if you have carb cravings just lessen the white wheat, high fructose corn syrup, white rice etc...

Combined with regular excercise (at least 3 times a week, at least 45 minutes each time -- with at least 30 minutes of that being cardio) you will feel a lot better and be (or remain) in better shape (if you are worried about losing too much weight or muscle mass simply eat more - but more calories, not more carbs).

tarkin2• 18 years ago

It all comes down to my former worry: don’t we need to strengthen the muscles of our brains? Once our brains find strength largely unneeded, because of the instant Provigil lift, then we’d surely become dependent on the drug.

mr_gunn• 18 years ago

The article discussing modafinil were a little over-enthusiastic, I think. It's more suited for people who have to say alert and watchful for long periods of time, rather than people who need to make better decisions. It would help night watchmen or troops on combat missions more than it would help a scientist or software developer.

My experiment with smart drugs: Viagra for the brain?

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