Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/11/12openjdk.html

by cstuder • 16 years ago

200 98 16 years ago

apple.com

nwjsmith• 16 years ago

I'm itching to take a look at Apple's "foundation for a new graphical client"

Nitramp• 16 years ago

I wonder why they don't just release their existing AWT/Swing adaptations?

Either they are afraid of people using the Mac OS style on Windows, or that by open sourcing the style, they loose their copyright to it, or the code is such as mess that they'd rather not release it into the open.

irons• 16 years ago

How many years-old projects with deep hooks into a proprietary OS, written with no intention of ever being open sourced, would or could be opened on any reasonable timeframe? Any precedents spring to mind?

yoden4• 16 years ago

The old backend was written with quartz, and hopelessly integrated into the OSX internals. It's part of the reason why Apple had to ship their own java.

The new backend will only depend on OpenGL, which is much better for anyone who isn't looking to lock you into their format. Which, oddly enough, appears to be Apple's goal with it's handling of java.

Hagelin• 16 years ago

"To set expectations, the first drop will be effectively a "SoyLatte"-level implementation, but is packaged as a Universal Mac OS X .jdk bundle that can be dropped directly into /Library/Java/JavaVirtualMachines. Over the coming weeks and months, we will be adding pieces and parts of our Java SE 6 implementation to the public project, and will cut over from using an X11-based AWT to a Cocoa NSEvent-based one with a new OpenGL-backed graphics layer.

There are several parts of our Java SE 6 implementation (like the AWT widgets) that are not contributable, in much the same way that several parts of Oracle's implementation are not. However, the vast majority of our Swing Aqua Look and Feel implementation is, as well as the eAWT/eIO API. We intend to host the legacy AWT widget set using lightweight peers, but that work is still in progress."

Mike Swingler (Apple Java Engineer) on the java-dev list

http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2010/Nov/msg00104.h...

riobard• 16 years ago

“…the foundation for a new graphical client”

Cocoa??

yakisoft2• 16 years ago

Probably more importantly not X11.

dekz• 16 years ago

"we will be adding pieces and parts of our Java SE 6 implementation to the public project, and will cut over from using an X11-based AWT to a Cocoa NSEvent-based one with a new OpenGL-backed graphics layer."

http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2010/Nov/msg00104.h...

Autre• 16 years ago

Though I'm glad for this desicion, I can't help but wonder: what's in it for oracle? The puny 5% of desktops running mac os?

cryptoz• 16 years ago

You don't think that Apple has a bright future building computers? This deal wouldn't have made sense 5 years ago, but Apple is an important force right now and is poised to be a huge part of the future.

The fact that iPad and iPhone don't run Java right now isn't relevant. They very well might in the next 5 years. Things change fast!

silvestrov• 16 years ago

Money. They're in for the money.

a) Even if it is only 5%, it is almost pure profit for Oracle. Many big companies would like to expand 5% for almost free.

b) The decision maker might run mac. No mac support, no sales. (One of my customers is like that). This is similar to the "American’s with Disabilities Act" which requires accesibility even though less than 5% of the users are disabled.

c) 5% is the average. Many companies aren't average, e.g. universities and research based companies.

archgrove2• 16 years ago

Your point (c) is the most important, in my opinion. I work in computing theory research at a major UK university, and well over 50% of the desktops I see used are Macs, and about 80% of the laptops. Many of our undergraduates also use Macs. A working Java implementation is quite important for this area - both for Apple, to ensure we keep buying them and Oracle, to stop people just saying "Well, we don't use that much Java anymore, let's just drop it".

jonknee• 16 years ago

Ellison gets another checklist on his sales brochure and will now continue to get a christmas card from his buddy Jobs.

rimantas• 16 years ago

My guess would be that that number is much higher for developers (at least not .NET developers). Just look around at conferences. Heck, just look at this: http://james.gosling.usesthis.com/

chc6• 16 years ago

It's actually closer to 10% if you look at the most recent numbers and discount machines that are not actually part of the market in any reasonable sense (e.g. nobody's going to be installing your software on their old cash register).

jonhendry2• 16 years ago

Support contracts?

haribilalic• 16 years ago

I'm glad that they're not throwing everything away. I wonder if this will provide any benefit to the Linux OpenJDK.

Torn• 16 years ago

If based on Cocoa, with more closed-source hooks, then probably not.

yoden4• 16 years ago

It's to be based on OpenGL. So hopefully!

yoden4• 16 years ago

My personal hope is that they'll do enough work to make the OpenGL Swing backend actually work. When our web browsers are starting to have credible 3D acceleration on our platforms... it's pretty unacceptable that the Swing OpenGL pipeline is so broken.

ivanmantova• 16 years ago

This oughta help stop the FUD.

rbanffy5• 16 years ago

So... Is this good or bad?

I know Oracle is giving its back (not to say finger) to the Apache Foundation, but OpenJDK is a GPL-licensed version of the Java stack. Why is it bad (as in why so many complain) that Apple, Oracle and IBM cluster around OpenJDK? Why is the GPL not good enough?

ig13• 16 years ago

It's not "clean", only JRE that have passed the TCK (Java Compatibility Kit) get the patent waiver, if you modify the JRE and don't get it re-certified then you lose the patent protection. And to get it certified you have to agree to a restrictive licence from Oracle. Sun promised Apache to make the TCK available under an open licence but this never happened.

IBM was previously putting pressure on Sun/Oracle to make the TCK available under the open licence to Apache that they had promised, since IBM have switched to OpenJDK, it removes that pressure and makes Java much more closed.

rbanffy5• 16 years ago

> only JRE that have passed the TCK (Java Compatibility Kit) get the patent waiver,

No. That's not true. As long as your code is derived from OpenJDK (and unavoidably licensed under GPL), you are protected from patent lawsuits from Oracle (for technology contributed to OpenJDK). What it doesn't protect you from is trademark issues if you claim whatever thing you have is Java. You can say "pretty much compatible with that famous VM invented by Sun(TM)" and you are clear.

> And to get it certified you have to agree to a restrictive licence from Oracle

Again, the GPL states you can use OpenJDK for whatever you want. If you decide to run a nuclear reactor with it, you are free to do so (as only the Oracle JDK is licensed under such restrictive terms)

> Sun promised Apache to make the TCK available under an open licence but this never happened.

I understand this is the core of the problem. What is not clear is how this adversely affects users.

> since IBM have switched to OpenJDK, it removes that pressure and makes Java much more closed.

We still have OpenJDK licensed under GPL. How's that closed?

meemo• 16 years ago

I don't think this has anything to do with that dispute (at least on Apple side). Rather, Apple wanted to lose the responsibility of bundling Java with Mac, but they couldn't abandon Java altogether.

pluies• 16 years ago

This is off-topic, but I'm amazed by the descriptions at the end of TFA (I know, I know, it's a press release, but still...)

Oracle is the world’s most complete, open and integrated business software and hardware systems company. (...)

Let's grant integrated and complete, but definitely not "open". Though this is dwarfed by Apple's incredible self-praise:

Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world, along with OS X, iLife, iWork, and professional software. Apple leads the digital music revolution with its iPods and iTunes online store. Apple is reinventing the mobile phone with its revolutionary iPhone and App Store, and has recently introduced its magical iPad which is defining the future of mobile media and computing devices.

Woah there cowboy! A bit of humility maybe?

tertius3• 16 years ago

I'm no fanboy, believe me. But most of that is pretty accurate.

kevindication• 16 years ago

The iPad is magical?

pkirk• 16 years ago

I'm no a meta-fanboy, believe me. But a real fanboy would have written that comment too.

fjh• 16 years ago

Too meaningless to be false is hardly the same as "pretty accurate".

GHFigs• 16 years ago

A bit of humility maybe?

Why? If you think your product is the best, say so. If you think your product is revolutionary, say so. If you think your product is magical, say so. If you think your product is defining the future, say so.

The only reason I can see to criticize a PR footer like that is if you think the company doesn't actually think of itself that way and is just trying to bullshit the reader.

tertius3• 16 years ago

As a side note, I wouldn't call Apple products "magical", maybe to the extent that they make people's money disappear. But that can be explained, somehow, without magic too.

I think the focus of his reply should have been on Jobs' giant ego, which is undeniable.

brown9-2• 16 years ago

Just goes to show how meaningless "open" has become.

brudgers2• 16 years ago

"Open" as in "Open for business."

gaius• 16 years ago

You're using the wrong definition. "Open" in this context is the same as OpenVMS, Openstep, OpenLook, Openview, yadda yadda. Open standard, not open source.

joe_the_user• 16 years ago

Which only demonstrates that "openness-abuse" has been with us for many years...

tzs2• 16 years ago

Well, considering that whenever someone posts on a technical forum (such as HN) asking what laptop to get to run Linux, they receive a lot of recommendations that they get Macs, I don't think "best personal computers in the world" is too far out of line for Apple to claim.

iPods completely dominate portable music playback, and the iTunes store is one of the biggest sellers of music in the world (didn't they take #1 a while back?). That would justify "leads the digital music revolution".

Take a look at Android's UI design before the iPhone came out, and compare to after iPhone. Look familiar? Take a similar look at mobile app sales before and after iPhone. "Revolutionary" is an acceptable claim, considering how much the mobile phone industry changed in direct response to the iPhone.

That leaves the iPad, the only one on the list they may have overhyped in the press release. Sure, it blows away every other attempt at a tablet so far, but most of the other table makers trying to capitalize on the iPad's success seem to be aiming for smaller tablets, so we can't yet say the iPad is "defining the future".

bubbleboy2• 16 years ago

apple laptops ≠ linux machines. in fact, most of the new macbooks are quite hard to get running on something modern like ubuntu 10.4 LTS, and just because OSX is a derivative of BSD doesn't make it friendly with current linux versions. especially those macbooks with "automatic graphics switching" and the like. sure you can boot, but all the [proprietary] advanced [closed] features that apple adds don't really function at all.

linux is great on a 2 year old macbook, however.

zmmmmm• 16 years ago

I like the backhand sleight towards Microsoft as well:

the project now has the backing of three of the biggest names in software

Hmm, who could they be?

stcredzero4• 16 years ago

Woah there cowboy! A bit of humility maybe?

I think if they added "humility" to that list, it would've crossed a line.

xyi• 16 years ago

Expecting humility from human beings is understandable. But why do you expect a company to be humble? Can you name companies that you think are humble?

chevas• 16 years ago

I trust Google with my email more than facebook.

yakisoft2• 16 years ago

This is really Oracle's news rather than Apple's.

Tyrannosaurs• 16 years ago

It's actually a more important announcement for Apple though in light of their stopping development of their own JVM.

This allows them to still be behind it without having to actually do the work.

cosmicray• 16 years ago

It also means one bug repository, instead of two. Bugs can now (or soon) be filed against OpenJDK, and not in Apple's radar bugbase.

yoden4• 16 years ago

If you're following the apple-java mailing list, you'll see this isn't the (supposedly) the plan. They're contributing eAWT and eIO to openJDK, plus assisting in writing a new OpenGL based Swing backend and Swing lightweight placeholders for AWT components.

To quote Mike Swingler (Apple java engineering): "Cheers all, we look forward to working with you in public!"

Sounds like the plan is to continue Apple's work as part of a respected open source project. Compared to developing in secret like they have been, what's not to like about that?

archgrove2• 16 years ago

Almost as important is the announcement that the current Apple JDK, 1.6, will still ship in Lion. Given the release cycle of Java 7, that's a big relief to Java users and given the HN crowd, budding Android developers. Moreover, it seems to quash the (ridiculous) rumours that OS X Lion will end up being some locked down antithesis of previous versions of OS X.

swannodette• 16 years ago

  > that's a big relief to Java users and given the 
    HN crowd, budding Android developers

And don't forget the Clojure, Scala, JRuby, Groovy, Jython, Mirah et al users ;)

mtinkerhess• 16 years ago

Does this mean there's some chance you'll be able to use Java for Mac App Store apps?

ianlevesque• 16 years ago

No they state right in the Mac App Store guidelines that you cannot.

markkanof• 16 years ago

Apple has certainly back-pedaled on App Store guidelines before. Lately they seem to start with the most restrictive set of guidelines to set a precedent and then ease things as they see fit. It's always easier to start strict and then relax over time, than it is to go the other way. Especially when the topic is programming languages/frameworks where over time a large code base can be built up.

Perhaps now that Java will not be considered deprecated from the platform, it will be allowed for us in App Store applications.

rcoder• 16 years ago

Java will still be an "optional" install, much like Flash, Silverlight, et. al. Because Apple can't guarantee that it will be pre-loaded on every Mac, any apps listed in the Mac App Store that used Java wouldn't work on "factory" Macs. I'm guessing that's a deal-breaker for Jobs & co.

chc6• 16 years ago

I expect it will be allowed only if you ship the JVM and runtime with your app. (And then I suppose Apple might reject you for your app being unreasonably large.)

stcredzero4• 16 years ago

Hello!? 2005 called and wants it's misconceptions back!

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/stanleyh/archive/2005/05/deploy...

7.5M if you want to strip.

sudonim• 16 years ago

The way people describe themselves in press releases is ridiculous:

"Oracle is the world’s most complete, open and integrated business software and hardware systems company. For more information about Oracle, please visit our Web site at www.oracle.com.

vdm• 16 years ago

Blog post from Oracle's Henrik Ståhl, responsible for product strategy in the Java Platform Group, with a little more detail and comments.

http://blogs.oracle.com/henrik/2010/11/oracle_and_apple_anno...

samps• 16 years ago

This bit is hilarious:

The best way for our users to always have the most up to date and secure version of Java will be to get it directly from Oracle.

Contrast that with a recent quote from Bill Evans:

We're happy to continue to support Flash on the Mac, and the best way for users to always have the most up to date and secure version is to download it directly from Adobe.

It's like they're just toying with the tech press.

mey• 16 years ago

Or look at something like Chrome or Microsoft who says, all these application crashes point directly back to this product, we're going to write shims and provide auto-updaters, to get this problem under control.

chc6• 16 years ago

I don't see any contrast. How is the fact that Apple takes a consistent stance toward third-party platforms "toying with the tech press"?

aita• 16 years ago

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." - proverb

YooLi• 16 years ago

"A penny saved is a penny earned." - proverb

technomancy• 16 years ago

"Well, isn't the enemy of your enemy like, your friend? Or whatever? Can't they team up?"

"Not exactly. In this setting, the enemy of your enemy is still a floating, greasy, armored brain."

"Well, what about his enemy? Maybe you could be friends with him."

"No, because that guy is a mechanical horror in an undying battle shell. He sails from world to world in a flying tomb, serving gods who eat hope."

"So, probably not."

"Odds are low."

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/05/

blasdel• 16 years ago

Not quite - Jobs and Ellison are BFFs

bradshaw1965• 16 years ago

This thread breaks the really admirable hacker news quality of not giving in to snark.

BonoboBoner• 16 years ago

Awesome, now I can get the new Air without fearing it wont run Scala.

Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

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