Indian technology talent is flocking to Canada

https://www.economist.com/business/2018/12/22/indian-technology-talent-is-flocking-to-canada

by RachelF • 8 years ago

108 81 8 years ago

tphan• 8 years ago

This is just an anecdotal alternative but a lot of my Australian co-workers are eschewing all the US political turmoil and are still choosing to emigrate to America.

ianhowson• 8 years ago

Australians get easy access to the US through the E-3 visa.

For countries that need an H1-B, Canada's visas are much easier to obtain and live with.

ksh2• 8 years ago

There is always turmoil. Turmoil is not a new thing. What do you think it felt like moving here after the dot com bust or after 9/11 + George Bush or after the 2008 financial meltdown. Whats happening at macro levels are out of your control. Imho people who are driven and persistent succeed no matter where they go.

pjc503• 8 years ago

You can eschew turmoil, but that doesn't mean it will eschew you, as my EU co-workers are discovering in the UK.

devereaux• 8 years ago

Considering the startup ecosystem in Canada, I fear much of that talent will be wasted.

We really need to fix immigration laws to make recruiting foreign IT professionals easier. The H1B system and the years of waiting is a disgrace.

brianwawok• 8 years ago

H1Bs don’t work at startups. They work at BigCo doing Boring Stuff.

wenc• 8 years ago

The H-1B is a specialty occupation visa that spans more occupations than most people are aware.

Most people associate it with IT workers, but many accountants, research scientists, engineers, and other professionals also hold H-1Bs. Where I work, it is the latter categories of professionals that dominate. Many of them have degrees from schools (e.g. MIT, CMU, etc.) much better than schools most of us went to.

And yes, some of them work at startups. They usually start out with an OPT after graduating and then convert to an H-1B.

IT worker and H-1B are not synonymous -- the former is a subset of the latter. It's unfortunate that the latter is used as shorthand for the former, and the two categories are conflated.

kerneltime• 8 years ago

Really.. tell me more! Startups don’t hire thousands and do not show up any Radars.. I know at least a few startups founded by folks needing H1B and know many more who work for startups..

echevil• 8 years ago

Well, one of the main reasons that they don't work at startups is that they need stability because of the broken immigration process. Similar to Indians, most Chinese tech workers here choose to join big companies, but Chinese tech workers in China are creating tons of startups.

throwawaymjabba8• 8 years ago

I had quite a few of my Indian friends who did MS in US, joined an Indian company, and jumped ship to start ups within 1-2 years.

zaptheimpaler• 8 years ago

I worked almost exclusively at startups under an H1B in SV and know many many others. A company pays something like $5K for the legal services and fees to hire an H1B, and under normal political circumstances they receive the initial docs that lets the employee start working in 2-4 weeks. There is really no reason H1Bs wouldn't work at startups (and they do)

gumby2• 8 years ago

I have hired plenty of h1bs at various startups I’ve worked on. It’s a lot more expensive and time considering than hiring someone local but sometimes you have no choice, either because they have some special skill or because you’ve exhausted all alternatives.

mavelikara2• 8 years ago

Most engineers - H-1Bs, GC holders and citizens - don't work at startups; they work at BigCo doing Boring Stuff.

If you go to any startup event in the Bay Area, you will see plenty of engineers on H-1Bs. Or browse one of the "Who's Hiring" threads here to notice that many startups provide for H-1B transfers.

Bombthecat2• 8 years ago

Germany just opened up (alot) you just need to find a job and can you can stay. (in IT not that hard right now)

konschubert• 8 years ago

Oh, can you point me to more information about this?

apercu4• 8 years ago

Considering the startup ecosystem in Canada, I fear much of that talent will be wasted.

Can you expand on this thought?

taobility• 8 years ago

Interesting, why USA needs to recruiting foreign IT professionals easier? Why the other countries don't have such concern? The right way shouldn't be improve the STEM education to provide more qualify new graduates?

throwaway1219• 8 years ago

I am an Indian, living in US for the last 8 years, my I-140 was approved 7 years ago and I am at least another 10 years away from my green card. I don't to be working on H1B for the next 10 years worrying about my immigration status.

I want to start my own company, I thought H4EAD would work out for me to do my startup. But for the last 2 years I could not risk move into H4EAD because the administration keeps saying they will cancel it "soon".

I am looking to move to Canada in 2019 (scheduled my IELTS and getting educational credentials evaluated for applying for Canadian PR). I love living in the bay area, but unfortunately things are not working out for us.

Thanks to the economic boom, the money I saved up over these years should help our family settle down in Canada when we move.

throwawaymjabba8• 8 years ago

Another Indian with a similar mindset (not wanting to be on the h1b leash until I may or may not get the green card in another 10-20-30 years).

Lived in US for 6 years. Had my i140 approved a few months ago and got H1B approved for 3 more years. Was finally in the middle of getting a promotion to an architect role after 6-7 years working for the team. Literally threw away all of it and came back to India 2 months ago. Haven't even started looking for a job.

They gave me RFE for my H1B extension. I saw the RFE document and it was just a copy paste from some template. They didn't even have my employer name correct. And since I was in a state where they give driving license based on h1b, I couldn't drive for 3 months because of the RFE delay.

I am finally at peace after spending the last 6 years on the h1b leash, always living in uncertainty. There is no way I would have lasted while I wait for the green card. On some days, I used to cry while driving to work. I used to feel really strong emotional pain on most of the days. I haven't experienced any of that since I came back.

I think quality of life is not just a higher salary or a clean environment or better job opportunities. Part of my brain must have been seeing all this uncertainty as life threatening and pushed me away. I don't know how else to explain it. Sometimes I wonder if this is one way US is filtering out people because they want only the most mentally strong to be part of their society.

fouc• 8 years ago

I welcome both of you to Canada. The technology company I worked for in Toronto had an incredible number of immigrants that were well on their way to getting full citizenship (I think it takes just 5 years?). It was a great work environment with an eclectic mix of east asians, eastern europeans, etc.

masonic3• 8 years ago

  They gave me RFE for my H1B extension

Who is "they"?

deanmoriarty4• 8 years ago

I really feel for you, you have all my empathy, I went through a very similar process.

Can I ask what was the RFE about? I mean there must have been a reason for them to question your extension?

rasikjain2• 8 years ago

I can understand your situation and going through the RFE phase. Would like to have a conversation with you. Can't find your email since it is a throwaway account. My email is in the profile. Can you please reach out to me?

break_the_bank3• 8 years ago

Have you considered the UK?

masonic3• 8 years ago

  living in US for the last 8 years

In other words, you came in on an H1B in 2010, right as the recession was peaking and there was lots of tech talent unemployed and underemployed (scrambling for contract role after contract role)... which exemplifies the problem.

Even in the teeth of the recession, the entire quota of new H1B visas was consumed every year.

danaur• 8 years ago

Could you clarify what problem you are pointing out. I'm just not reading the conclusion you are trying to make.

zozbot1232• 8 years ago

"The problem" being that lots of tech talent would rather stay unemployed or underemployed than compete for the positions that H1Bs would otherwise fill? I don't think the average business would willingly choose to hire H1Bs if they could employ a US national as a realistic alternative...

jogjayr2• 8 years ago

2010 was the only year that the number of new applications provably didn't hit the cap - i.e. the entire quota was definitely not consumed. There were ~76k applications approved. The annual cap is 65k + 20k Masters + 5k (Singapore & Chile) + unlimited for non-profits[1]

I know people whose applications from the 2011 quota were made and approved well into 2012 - so 2011 almost certainly did not hit the 85k (65k + 20K Masters) quota either. I assume 2009 was similar.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#H-1B_applications_ap...

jbarham2• 8 years ago

This article reminds me why I cancelled my Economist subscription years ago. But gotta love the obligatory shout out to Richard Florida that pops up whenever the media covers the tech sector in Canada!

Question: If there will supposedly be 200,000 tech vacancies in Canada by 2020, why are tech salaries in Canada so low compared to the US?

Another question: If the Canadian government is serious about developing the high tech sector, why doesn't it reform the absurdly overpriced telecoms oligopoly? See e.g. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/low-cost-data-crtc-1.494942... that reports on the imminent introduction of $30/month for 1 GB of wireless data as "low-cost" with a straight face. That's literally 10X what I pay here in Australia (https://www.optus.com.au/shop/broadband/mobile-broadband/dat...) never mind what it costs in Europe!

I think the primary reason Canadian policymakers want to juice immigration to Canada is to delay the real estate bubble from popping on their watch...

cauldron• 8 years ago

From my understanding, jobs in Canada are scarce, at least for new immigrants, it seems most of them can only start off of menial jobs.

Since Canada is relatively easy to immigrate to, newcomers have to stay within the country to compete for scarce and low pay jobs, while citizens of Canada can pursue high salaries abroad.

kankroc• 8 years ago

This is only true for refugees, economic migrants usually have a wide range of good jobs to choose from.

And unemployment is at its lowest point in year in Canada.

apercu4• 8 years ago

Good, high paying jobs are scarce. But if you can speak the language passably getting a job in a Canadian city is easy.

jpatokal• 8 years ago

Makes perfect sense, the vacancies stay vacant because the salaries are so low!

apercu4• 8 years ago

Question: If there will supposedly be 200,000 tech vacancies in Canada by 2020, why are tech salaries in Canada so low compared to the US

So that companies can push for more immigration and keep salaries deflated.

slededit• 8 years ago

At the last AWS users group I was at in Toronto everyone was hiring. Can’t speak for the rest of the country.

TheAceOfHearts• 8 years ago

What action do you believe the Canadian government should take in order to reform telecoms? There could be multiple plausible explanations for their high prices, and since I'm not sufficiently familiarized with Canadian laws and regulations, it's not obvious to me that their services are severely overpriced given the ecosystem in which they operate. I'd ask why it costs so much for native customers, while foreign visitors can consume data at much more competitive rates. For example, I'm using Google Fi and they charge $10/GB, regardless of your location. Maybe if you're Canadian you should try signing up for a Google Fi account and using it for mobile data.

jbarham2• 8 years ago

What action do you believe the Canadian government should take in order to reform telecoms?

Easy, allow in foreign competitors like we have here in Australia such as Vodafone (UK) and Optus (Singapore) that compete fiercely w/ the former domestic monopoly Telstra.

There could be multiple plausible explanations for their high prices...

The industry justification for high prices is that Canada is a large, sparsely populated country. But that's also true of Australia and Russia which have much lower telecoms pricing (and the US to some extent). Personally I believe the real reason prices are so high in Canada is that the CRTC (the Canadian regulator) has been captured by the industry. Which is a polite way of saying plain old corruption.

Svoka• 8 years ago

I work as a programmer in Canada, get descent pay, can afford to buy a house and take my family to vacation. Yup, it's far from money I got at Bay Area, but I can afford more, and live in neighbourhood where I don't have to lock doors or really worry about being mugged, which happened in Cali several times.

ziont• 8 years ago

its already happened here in Vancouver, BC.

indian tech workers make up a huge part of startups to pre-IPO companies.

having said that glassdoor reviews show them to be awful places to work-shit pay, shit code, that turns to overtime.

I know one friend who was pretty much ousted by indian managers.

just don't expect new arrivals to respect or even be conscious of Canadian cultures or customs.

i hope they eventually learn and integrate here however.

not so great for tech workers already in canada.

truncate2• 8 years ago

Plural of anecdote is not data, and certainly not when you are insinuating "indian managers" in particular to be worse than others and "indians" in particular creating toxic work environment.

sonnyblarney2• 8 years ago

No, even a singular anecdote is data.

Having worked for a 99% Indian/Pakistani company in tech myself, I can confirm that 'it's really different'. We were treated well, but when we were not ... it was in odd ways. And can confirm salaries were generally lower as so many people were in visa-limbo or migration situations, the company used it to it's advantage. It was a slide on the deck to investors. Which is maybe not so nice, but the logic makes sense: company of largely newcomers, lead by newcomers, uses cultural aspect of migration sensitivity to their advantage.

Also, curiously, though the notion of Indians and Pakistanis coming together to form a successful enterprise is amazing and progressive ... a lot of the 'class based' issues were imported as well. The execs were all from elite Indian Subcontinent families.

apercu4• 8 years ago

Question: If there will supposedly be 200,000 tech vacancies in Canada by 2020, why are tech salaries in Canada so low compared to the US

Most of the smaller, newer tech co's are sweat shops. As companies grow and mature a lot of them get better at treating their employees.

I have no idea why we in tech allow companies to make us work more than "X" hours.

david-gpu• 8 years ago

I respect your experience, but mine has been very different. My immigrant Indian colleagues have been competent and pleasant in general, and I'm talking of dozens of people.

Customs vary around the world, even within a nation, and we must all make an effort to communicate our expectations and boundaries.

abhinai• 8 years ago

To be honest, if we can stop the abuse of H1B visas by Indian IT firms, the H1B program will be in a much better shape. A separate visa category for Indian IT firms will fix this problem.

asianthrowaway• 8 years ago

Thanks Trump?

m0zg• 8 years ago

Wouldn't this, as a logical consequence, lead to Canadian technology talent "flocking" to the US due to the wage depression created by the influx of foreign workers? I mean, it's a lot easier for a Canadian to come work here, and they are paid easily twice as much as in Canada. And in the long run, isn't this kind of "native" brain drain counterproductive for Canada?

Indian technology talent is flocking to Canada

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