Can They Make Government Jobs as Cool as Google and Goldman?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/can-they-make-government-jobs-as-cool-as-google-and-goldman/2018/07/20/da230dc4-8b83-11e8-a345-a1bf7847b375_story.html

by rmason • 8 years ago

42 81 8 years ago

washingtonpost.com

Eridrus• 8 years ago

Seems unlikely. There's no appetite to pay people as well as Google/Goldman. Even much of HN isn't willing to accept how much Engineers get paid there.

But it doesn't need to be as cool as Google/Goldman, it just needs to be well run.

captainbland• 8 years ago

Probably not. At best they might make them kind of 'MAGA' edgy.

gaius4• 8 years ago

There absolutely are government jobs that are super-cool, Navy SEAL for example. It’s not the inherent government-ness that makes these other jobs un-cool, it’s something else

goldminer88• 8 years ago

While being a Navy SEAL would be interesting or cool by any standard, its not exactly a position with low barriers to entry.

The point of the article is questioning if its possible to have government jobs that are attainable by the everyman.

mantas2• 8 years ago

Google software engineer does not have low barriers either. You've to train pretty hard for either. And both jobs seem like magic for general population.

empath75• 8 years ago

Not working for this administration. I just quit a DHS contract a few months ago because I didn’t want to have anything to do with what they were doing.

billsmithaustin• 8 years ago

I’m sorry your experience with the federal government was so bad. The article was more focused on government at the local and state level.

JasonFruit• 8 years ago

Thank you for having principles.

dsr_• 8 years ago

Those aren't cool companies, those are just paid a lot.

Cool is working on something that you, personally, find important -- and making progress.

The biggest barrier to that in government is being allowed to make progress, partially because the existing processes have a large inertia, and partially because the cost of failure is so high.

christophilus• 8 years ago

This was my thought, as well. I've never in my life heard of this purported Goldman and cool association.

goatherders2• 8 years ago

You dont work on Wall Street.

alistairSH7• 8 years ago

That was my thought. In college (albeit 20 years ago now), Goldman (and similar Wall St) jobs were only cool because of the money involved. The actual work, and lack of life balance, wasn't cool. It was just something to do for a few years while you saved a pile of cash, and before going back for an MBA or something else.

lowken10• 8 years ago

You know what's a cool job? Working at a great job doing interesting work... and having a schedule where I leave at 2:30 PM and pick my kids up from school. Then I get to spend the evening with my kids, playing with them, going to the pool with them, doing homework with them, reading with them, etc.

That's a cool job!!!

stochastic_monk2• 8 years ago

And what is this cool job of which you speak? Is this your wish list or a description of your current job?

jasode2• 8 years ago

Those aren't cool companies, those are just paid a lot.

I get your point about an article redefining "cool" in a way you don't like but if we entertain what the article is talking about, they mean jobs that have "prestige" and are "desirable" to graduates.

There's no denying that top-of-the-class college graduates dream more about landing an analyst job at Goldman or McKinsey rather than getting hired at a government job such as "parks & rec manager". (A job as a park ranger to track bears may be "cool" but a parks & rec manager to shuffle paperwork around is probably not. A job as a park manager may be respected but it's not prestigious.)

Some government jobs that would be considered "cool" would be NASA scientists working on Mars rovers or NSA code crackers. However, those are not the type of government jobs (because NASA/NSA can attract talent) the article is talking about.

garmaine6• 8 years ago

I get your point about an article redefining "cool" in a way you don't like but if we entertain what the article is talking about, they mean jobs that have "prestige" and are "desirable" to graduates.

Those jobs are desirable to graduates because they pay lots of money. End of story.

chomp• 8 years ago

The NSA was at OSCon last week, gave a great talk about the legal challenges to contributing back to the open source community. They're almost done with a guidance framework that will not only allow their department contribute with less friction, but also allow other departments to do the same. Take a look at how much they've done: https://code.nsa.gov/

Ethical and political views of an organization that spies on citizens aside, I think a government organization that open sources it's code is pretty darn cool.

garmaine6• 8 years ago

I think you mis-spelled:

https://code.nasa.gov

drivingmenuts• 8 years ago

a government organization that open sources it's code is pretty darn cool

Seeing as how taxpayers paid for it in the first place, open-sourcing the code should be a requirement, not a cool extra.

amelius• 8 years ago

Those companies are so big that they are just like the government, except they have only one indicator of success which is financial.

skc• 8 years ago

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone use Goldman as an example of a "cool" company.

When did that happen?

Tade0• 8 years ago

Same here. I used to work with a guy who was employed at the London HQ.

He had some great stories to tell but his experience there was anything but "cool".

gaius4• 8 years ago

Both Google and Goldman are “springboard” companies, 2-3 years at either and you are basically guaranteed an interview anywhere you want, possibly for the rest of your career. Cool might not be the right word, but there is a reason why people clamour to get in, not just the money

ionforce• 8 years ago

To whom does a stint at Goldman hold cachet?

notahacker• 8 years ago

Goldman's springboard role is because of its assumed ability to be more selective about analytical talent than virtually anywhere else as a result of their ability to pay more though. It's a virtuous circle.

Government simply can't afford to pay or select that much, and those government roles which guarantee strong future employment prospects are often because those employed in it are perceived to have connections as much as skills (probably not something the civil service wants to emphasis whilst recruiting...)

Patient0• 8 years ago

Maybe it's PR: http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html

dragonwriter2• 8 years ago

I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone use Goldman as an example of a "cool" company.

It's in comparison to the current perception of government employment.

Goldman and Google are phenomenally cool by that standard.

“Can X be made as cool as Y?” is a valid question when Y isn't very cool if X is even more uncool.

elgenie• 8 years ago

The article doesn't mention "coolness" at all. All that's mentioned is on-campus recruiting of graduating seniors at selective schools, which Goldman/Google/McKinsey certainly work hard at. In terms of the universal measure of coolness known as "tastiness of food provided at on-campus info sessions", I recall those companies rating highly.

And Betteridge's Law of Headlines applies here.

qaq• 8 years ago

It seems government has not issues attracting Goldman talent even most senior people :).

sailfast3• 8 years ago

Readers will note the article is about state and local government jobs.

Everyone should try to work in government at some point to understand why things so relevant to your life happen the way they do, and to be better citizens.

State and local has huge challenges in terms of funding and potentially old infrastructure, but also incredible opportunities to change lives with simple improvements in processes that haven’t gotten the love they deserve.

Wage increases would help, but two year “tours” with other benefits might at least help folks understand why the mission is so important and maybe bust up some staid organization with some new energy.

Good luck to these folks - they’ll need it.

wolfgke2• 8 years ago

Everyone should try to work in government at some point to understand why things so relevant to your life happen the way they do, and to be better citizens.

I disagree: Working in something government related makes you deeply hate the government.

To give some background: When I get involved into political discussions (which I rather avoid for good reasons), people very often tell me privately afterwards that I gave really good arguments for my points of discussion, but my arguments and political direction are so different from anything they have heard so far and could hardly be more different from any party program of any party they heard of (needless to say that I do not feel in any sense represented by any party in Germany). So they privately do agree with many points that I introduce, but openly state to me that they are not be able to defend these arguments in public because they are so different from the current political agenda.

To me this is deeply frustrating.

State and local has huge challenges in terms of funding and potentially old infrastructure, but also incredible opportunities to change lives with simple improvements in processes that haven’t gotten the love they deserve.

This is exactly what government is not about. It is obeying some strange set of laws perfectly instead of doing what really makes sense.

alistairSH7• 8 years ago

I don't disagree, but working as a bureaucrat is not the same as having a political debate. Most bureaucrats are doing work that needs done regardless of political alignment (of the employee, or of the current administration). Leading the police department, sanitation department, etc - none are strictly political positions.

sailfast3• 8 years ago

I’m thinking that the United States Federal and State system likely have significant differences here that at leading to misunderstanding. By “government job” I mean a bureaucrat charged with leading or implementing a project - say, your local DMV website (licensing, car registration, etc) or your state park website.

When these work well at the local level they are awesome. When they don’t I often hear people complain but they rarely understand why the site is subpar, challenges to make it better, or want to pay for improvements.

code4tee• 8 years ago

I think Goldman was seen as a “cool” place to work maybe like 12+ years ago before the crash. Now, not so much.

aikinai• 8 years ago

This sounds like one of those things that's impossible to replicate since it so heavily depends on existing culture, but it's interesting to note that in Japan government work is seen as quite cool and it's a top choice for many of the most successful job seekers.

adrian_mrd• 8 years ago

Short answer: no.

Long answer: no, with comments! This is because government is inherently risk-averse and attracts many working types who are more attracted by stability, consistency and a ‘safe’ job. Obviously governments are varied beasts and there are some ‘funky’, innovative, exciting departments, although in my experience they are very much exceptions.

Making and enforcing rules is safe territory - in terms of being somewhat of a known state, working at exciting companies can be very much the opposite. But as some commentators have stated, cool is very much an individual angle.

nashashmi• 8 years ago

Further government is a place where loyalty trumps responsibility, ideas, and passion for the measly end goal of climbing the ladder, securing your rank, and succeeding when you shouldn't.

noxToken• 8 years ago

This is because government is inherently risk-averse and attracts many working types who are more attracted by stability, consistency and a ‘safe’ job. Obviously governments are varied beasts and there are some ‘funky’, innovative, exciting departments, although in my experience they are very much exceptions.

It's funny how true this is while some government jobs immediately spit in the face of these practices. More specifically, a lot of O-1 and O-2 officers are so far up their own ass that they don't realize that the stability exists because the technical side of some jobs have such a well established routine.

Yes sir. We understand that you have a college degree in chemistry. We know that according to your analysis, we should do A, B, and C. But have you considered that the software we have for mapping out RF propagation has (quite literally) never failed us? Have you considered that the people who wrote this software both have a degree in the field and refined it based on real-world analysis? Also, have you considered that having us set up a re-transmission site in the middle of a firing range is bad for the equipment and bad for my chances of living to see 21?

You would think that last one would be common sense, but waking up to friendly fire (explosions) at 6AM is terrifying.

ToFab123• 8 years ago

There is nothing cool about Goldman. That company have created more havoc in ordinary people economy than any other private company ever had. IMHO Goldman is the definition of scumbags. "cool" is defiantly not the word that comes to my mind when I hear that name

goatherders2• 8 years ago

Goldman is a public company. Facebook, Apple and tons of other idolized companies have generated as much malfeasance around the world. And Goldman is cool in circles where people like to make lots and lots of money.

booleandilemma• 8 years ago

A worked with an ex-Goldman employee and she was the most backstabbing person I have ever met. The experience made me wonder if they select for that.

nimbius• 8 years ago

ugh, hard to imagine. As a former motor pool mechanic for a small county in Ohio, the government has some serious work to do before it will ever compete with google, and its all in management. Ive endured some truly idiotic days at government...including

- Racking up 8 industry certifications, fully paid, only to have all my ideas shot down because they didnt come from a manager with a degree in philosophy.

- Buying an expensive flush computer system for a type of truck that we already outsourced transmission flushes for, and that was being phased out in favour of something cheaper from International Harvester.

- Refusing...and i mean absolutely refusing...to fix any salt spreader hardware because meyer (the manufacturer) insisted everything would last 40k miles. - trying to explain we dont measure in miles, we measure in engine hours. all reports still list miles.

- watching the city basically sell off 5 salt spreading trucks because a lawsuit after one failed made them all 'a liability'

- replacing a fleet of Kodiak 4x4 HD salt spreaders with used Ford F250's from a construction fleet. - watching these all fail miserably after the first major snow storm.

- Borrowing...then buying and poorly repainting...trucks for salt spreading from the National Guard.

- Getting dinged on my performance review EVERY YEAR because management wouldnt buy parts I needed to make the sheriffs new mine resistant armored vehicle work.

alistairSH7• 8 years ago

You're comparing apples and oranges. So is the original article.

The government equivalent of Google would be working for an interesting branch (CIA, NSA, NRL, etc) of the federal government. Not working on trucks for the town.

And, as a DC local, I can tell you that there are plenty of applicants for federal jobs. People want the jobs - they pay reasonably well (not Google level, but comfortably upper-middle-class, with stable benefits).

A huge number of my peers from high school and college work for Uncle Sam. Almost all of them have post-graduate degrees, love their jobs, and are definitely smart enough and ambitious enough to pick and choose their employer.

renox• 8 years ago

- Getting dinged on my performance review EVERY YEAR because management wouldnt buy parts I needed to make the sheriffs new mine resistant armored vehicle work.

Well I kind of understand the management here: why do the sheriff needs a mine resistant armored vehicle in Ohio?

That said of course this should not have an impact on your performance review..

doctorRetro2• 8 years ago

I had a previous job in the trucking industry, and while I wasn't involved in maintenance, I swear we had scenarios occur that match your observations eerily well. As an aside, this may be a dumb question, but why does a Sheriff in a "small county" need a mine resistant armoured vehicle?

alistairSH7• 8 years ago

They don't. But, there are a few things that make them want them. First, the US military sells them cheap as surplus (or, at least did, they might have dialed that back recently). Second, police in the US fetishize the "operator" culture [1]. They've been trained to think that a large hammer will fix all their policing problems.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces

jbob2000• 8 years ago

The US government sells used military hardware to civilian police forces for dirt cheap as a way to keep up demand for the military industrial complex.

China builds apartments to prop up their GDP, the US builds mine-resistant armoured vehicles (among other military hardware). Nobody needs these vehicles except the people building them.

doctorRetro2• 8 years ago

Gotcha. Thanks for the replies. Those are, sadly, about what I figured.

drngdds• 8 years ago

Can they pay as much as Google and Goldman? No? Then no.

bitL• 8 years ago

Probably, but they have to wait until Google and Goldman deteriorate to the Government jobs-level first.

lesss365• 8 years ago

When NYC gov upgrades from Windows 2008, and a way too cumbersome and outdated CMS for their sites, then we'll know they're taking the steps towards maybe not "cool", but towards bearable systems/workflows to deal with, and as a result making them more attractive as an employer

lbriner2• 8 years ago

A point that hasn't been made is that measuring success and value is generally easy in a simple commercial company like Google. If you are a part of something that makes $1B a year, you are probably worth your wages and all the cool tech and offices you need.

Clearing snow or getting rid of garbage has no obvious financial value even though it is necessary. So answering the question, should Sanitation be run by a clever person on $200K per year or a normal person on $40K is harder.

alistairSH7• 8 years ago

There's a reasonable middle ground, no?

Should the manager of a city's sanitation department draw a Goldman/Google-level salary? Perhaps not. But, the person is probably managing tens or hundreds of employees, a fleet of vehicles, and depending on how the city is organized, they're also managing some complex "industrial" facilities(water treatment, etc).

I don't think a six-figure salary is unreasonable for that. Heck, given the impact on my life if sanitation goes to shit, I'll happily pay my share of taxes to support a salary that draws somebody who will get the job done.

Ditto for the leaders of many of the other city/county services.

delinka• 8 years ago

Can they? Sure. Will they? Doubtful. The problem is slowness due to bureaucracy. When you can't even experiment on 'company' equipment without formulating a plan and having it approved by a few levels of management, it becomes a pain to advance not only your department/organization, but also to advance your own knowledge.

lbriner2• 8 years ago

Government employs a massive number of people compared to Google. There simply aren't that many amazing people to fill a government, even if a specific job looked cool, the clever person would soon leave out of frustration that others don't know what they're doing. At Google, even if you don't like the management, they have (generally) proved their worth and ability.

If your cool jobs couldn't attract the clever people I assume the OP was alluding to, then it isn't worth the hassle?

Governments also have to work with many outside agencies, suppliers and consumers, I guess many more than people like Goldman do. Unless the whole network is run well, frustration is crouching at the door.

jdietrich• 8 years ago

Yes. We did it in the UK. The Government Digital Service is essentially a startup within the government, providing services for other government departments. Since 2011, a relatively small team have completely transformed the government's online presence. Government services are now digital by default and open by default; GDS maintains over 1,100 repos on GitHub.

It helps that tech salaries are generally lower in the UK, but it's mainly about attitude. GDS enjoy a very high level of autonomy and are free to use modern tools and methodologies. Working at GDS is legitimately cool.

https://gds.blog.gov.uk/about/

https://github.com/alphagov

typon• 8 years ago

What kind of a square thinks working at Goldman is cool?

Can They Make Government Jobs as Cool as Google and Goldman?

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