Ask HN: What steps can I take to earn $250K+?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17518702

by vbtemp • 8 years ago

43 54 8 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

If I were to work backwards from the goal of making a salary at $250K+, what would they be?

Given context, I'm an MS in computer science, about a decade of experience in software development (both in R&D and production systems, embedded to cloud). Currently, I'm $100K/yr shy of my goal.

In the end, my goal is to have a strong enough salary to raise a family in financial security, and be in a position such that my spouse works because she wants to, not has to. Look forward to the discussion!

(Note, Location is high-COL big-metro east coast city)

govr• 8 years ago

answer your question for those of us trying to make $150k, thanks.

vbtemp4• 8 years ago

1. Find a company or startup that desperately needs someone with your skillset ASAP

2. Negotiate hard

3. Have a good reputation

godelmachine2• 8 years ago

Thanks for the three points :)

spraak• 8 years ago

This is side stepping the answer you're looking for: can you change locations with your current salary? The net effect could be living as if you had $250k.

Otherwise, the best way I think reaching beyond the $150k/year salary as a SWE besides becoming a senior Engineer at Google etc. is creating your own startup and keeping the head count small, e.g. like many of the people on Indie Hackers. Of course, I haven't done this yet myself, but that's what I've come to when thinking about this.

Other options I haven't explored as much could be investments of some kind (crypto? traditional stock market? real estate?)

hitsurume• 8 years ago

Just to clarify, you're in the Bay Area or somewhere else?

vbtemp4• 8 years ago

High COL east-coast city

bsvalley2• 8 years ago

Where are you located? $250k in San Francisco for example with 10 years of experience is very doable. How? RSU's. Look for big and hot tech companies and that's it. If you're talking about $250k as a base salary, then I'd say forget about it unless you move into management. Even then, it would take you years to get there. If your wife starts working then your total monthly income will definitely make it easy for you to raise a family in the Bay Area. Again, I'm totally guessing, you could be located in Nebraska or Canada I don't know..

Long story short - RSU's in big companies.

godelmachine2• 8 years ago

Does RSU mean restricted stock unit?

bsvalley2• 8 years ago

My bad, I forgot to specify... Yes, Restricted Stock Units. A new grant usually vests over 4 years. It starts with your one year anniversary when 25% of your grant vest. Then after it's every 6 months you get 12.5%. Every year they may give you another round of RSU's (on a new 4 year vesting plan)

segmondy• 8 years ago

Move to San Francisco, get a job with a well paying company.

Move to NYC. Become a quant that can code.

Start your own business.

Move into VP/CTO role.

jryan49• 8 years ago

Become a consultant.

throwawaymath2• 8 years ago

Any of these companies will get you to $250k+ annual compensation in 0 - 3 years, depending on your current experience.

Tech:

- Google

- Facebook

- Salesforce

- Bloomberg

Finance:

- Renaissance Technologies

- DE Shaw

- Citadel

- Two Sigma

Since you're already on the East Coast, if you're presently located in - or can easily relocate to - the NYC metro area, getting hired at one of these companies is probably the most straightforward path to that goal. Entrepreneurship and consulting can also get you there, but that's a less straightforward path. These aren't the only companies either, mind you, these are just the ones I'm personally familiar with.

Particularly towards the financial side of things, it wouldn't be outlandish to earn significantly more than that in first year compensation if you're placed on the right team. Considering you already have a decade of experience and a graduate degree in computer science, if you do well on the interview I'd estimate you'd reach your goal somewhere between immediately and 1.5 years in.

beisner• 8 years ago

Best strategy is to shop around, many of these companies will match or exceed offers from the others, so you can get them to bid up significantly.

minhazm423• 8 years ago

But how do you get to the point where you're even attractive to these companies? Without being from a target school or having an insane number of years of experience?

Also the finance companies, you mean a job in the front right? Programming tools or whatever?

sloaken• 8 years ago

To restate your goal: It is to be able to easily afford to raise a family. The 250K is all relative.

If you still think you need $250, search for the Highest COL area, (like switzerland etc) and get a job there.

If you desire to raise a family, then I would recommend

1) find a low Cost Of Living area and try to find a job there. You will take a paycut, but try to make it loss less than the COL delta.

2) when comparing COL be sure to plug in what you really spend money on. Back 25 years ago I was going to move from Orlando to Raleigh, but the company offer said the COL delta was enough of a raise (10%). Researching the data used, it was true, if I smoked 2 packs and drank a quart of whiskey each and every day. Otherwise the cost of living was equal.

3) Re examine what you think you need to raise a family and what you really need. If you do, you will find you can live on a lot less.

<soap box time> Over the years people talk about this person or that person being rich. And how they need to pay more in. Odds are if you are reading this, you are rich. If your choice each day is: what do I want to eat, followed by where can I find that food - then you are rich. If your plan is to eat something at home, or maybe buy at the store and then fix it at home - then you are middle class. If you are not sure if you can afford to eat, and not because you are too lazy to get the food - then you are poor. <end soap box>

cm20124• 8 years ago

Seconding consulting. I'm in marketing but I went from 100k - $400k a year with the same hours.

shanghaiaway2• 8 years ago

Do you bill 400k or is that what you pay yourself?

cm20124• 8 years ago

My businesses expenses are only around $10k a year, so what I bill and pay myself is basically the same.

byebyetech3• 8 years ago

Please tell your story. How did you 4x your income? Didn't know people in marketing make this much.

cm20124• 8 years ago

Most marketing people don't. Basically, I have a lot of experience growing and managing high spend ad accounts at this point. Once you have that experience and skill, you're in much higher demand. I have a lot of references saying I'm good, so I can negotiate hourly + % of ad spend. Pareto's law is in full effect in online marketing, so 10 hours a week with a client can get them very similar results to if I worked for them full time.

For example, one of my clients I grew from $0 Facebook spend to 6 figures Facebook spend. They're happy because it's profitable (printing money for them), I'm happy since I get 15% of ad spend. It doesn't take that many clients like that before you're making $30k+ a month.

WheelsAtLarge• 8 years ago

Start by looking around you and look at who is making 250k+. You'll see that they have control of a lot of resources relative to those that don't. They also have more responsibility than those that don't. Also, some bring in more cash to the company than those who don't. If they get paid 250k then they bring in at least that much in profits, directly or indirectly. So look for those jobs and aim for them. You'll need to plan your strategy to get from now to the job you want. Get the education you need or the experience you need. If it's experience you need then look for it in your company or move to another that will give you the experience.

Always look for a job that will bring you one step closer to your goal. Start to move up the ladder. Are you a programmer? Then look for a higher level programmer job. Do you want to be a CTO? Then start managing teams. Remember experience is more important than pay. If it's a move up then low pay for that position is ok for a time. As you gain experience you can get a higher paying job somewhere else.

Network, you need to make sure you're comfortable and friendly with management. If they know your skills and you then they are more likely to move you up or even recommend you for a new position. Also, look for friends that are already doing the job you want. Join organizations where you are likely to make the right contacts.

Be ready to move, having a broad area to search for a job makes it easier to get both pay and experience. Also, the higher the pay then the lower the number of jobs that pay the higher wage.

You can also go the consulting route. 250k regular job with benefits is about $250/hr as an independent consultant but it's harder to continuously get companies that will pay that. Also, technology shifts and it's harder to always be the expert that companies want to hire at that range.

ramblerman• 8 years ago

Start by looking around you and look at who is making 250k+

Is this common knowledge where you work?

mancerayder• 8 years ago

Well, you can also get a stable, steady gig that pays 125/hr on 40 hrs a week and that's your 250 right there.

Downsides: sick == no pay, no healthcare included (blame American laissez-faire free market health care).

Pros: you have money, you have a life.

One non-existent con - less job security as a consultant. That's nonsense by those who prefer you work 50 hour weeks as an FTE.

edit: one more pro is deductions if you're going through your corporation and a chance for a blanket 20% deduction (we find out from the IRS end of July whether it applies to pass-throughs like ours).

panda8888884• 8 years ago

Step 1: Move to Seattle and find a job there. Purchasing power there is 38% higher than NYC. We'll say that your salary stays at 150k, but you'll realistically feel like you have 38% more. (Source: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...)

Step 2: Buy a house in Tacoma. Don't buy in Seattle; the market there is in a bubble. Tacoma is an up-and-coming suburb. Cost will be ~300k for a livable house, or 400k if you want a nicer one. (Example: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Tacoma-WA/49299981_zpi...).

You'll have an hour commute but that's not too bad if you're used to east coast commutes and traffic. If you buy a house close to one of the train stations, you can take the commuter train to downtown Seattle so you won't have to drive.

Step 3: Save as much as you can for kids' college/retirement/whatever.

Sounds pretty livable to me.

haloux• 8 years ago

An alternative is to do the same plan but with Portland Oregon and live in Vancouver or Hillsboro. Take the max in and out of the city.

panda8888884• 8 years ago

The purchasing power in Portland/suburbs is 20% lower, though. Seattle is still king for stretching your dollar.

koolba• 8 years ago

$400K for a 1700 sqft house with no yard and a one hour commute sounds terrible.

bartozone• 8 years ago

I'd KILL for this. (Also, I live in SF).

panda8888884• 8 years ago

A $400k house and a 1 hour commute is better than 1.2 million house and 30 min commute (comparing living in Tacoma to living in Seattle).

byebyetech3• 8 years ago

One hour commute each way? That would be terrible.

panda8888884• 8 years ago

That's better than what most people in SF/NYC have for a commute.

VSPrw3C1yK• 8 years ago

I was in your situation a couple years ago and I doubled my salary. Identify an essential but unmet need in your organization. Satisfy it. This makes you essential, but also demonstrates you can manage yourself, execute and provide strategic value. Renegotiate compensation. Rinse and repeat.

byebyetech3• 8 years ago

Can you give an example. It sounds bit general and non-actionable. Example will help understand how as a SWE you can find unmet need within organization?

arisAlexis• 8 years ago

if you want financial security and health care and many other things that make up the quality of life I suggest to relocate in Europe. The dalary will be lower but what you will get what you are asking for.

King-Aaron2• 8 years ago

$100,000 per year and you don't feel that this currently gives you financial security.

Can we please step back for a moment and reflect on that.

ChristianGeek• 8 years ago

I make more than that, live in a high COL area in CA, have a family of four, live relatively modestly, and still live paycheck to paycheck.

King-Aaron2• 8 years ago

Yeah, my point being that considering the sum of money we're making, it really shouldn't have to be a case of living paycheck to paycheck. The general costs of living are getting out of control.

gaius• 8 years ago

Can we please step back for a moment and reflect on that.

$117k is officially considered “low income” in some places http://fortune.com/2018/06/27/bay-area-six-figures-housing-h...

makingbank• 8 years ago

My experience:

20+ years in specialized field.

All of that at large well-known tech companies in high COL areas.

Took about 15 years to break though $200k total comp.

Doubled to $400+k by moving to a company with large RSU grants relative to base pay, and got that by negotiating hard.

My refresh grants have been declining because my performance has been good rather than outstanding, but with moderate stock price growth I don’t see a problem continuing to report $400k total comp in my current position.

I’m considering moving to one of two other large tech companies where I have been told I should easily be able to increase that to $500k, and probably $600k+ if I am seen as successful.

At $200k in the Bay Area I felt like buying property was out of the question, but at $400k it was very doable with enough spare cash to feel like I can enjoy the area.

Having said that, a lot of the delta between those two points goes to taxes.

Something1234• 8 years ago

Any ideas on where to go if I want to reverse engineer software?

aminotaa3• 8 years ago

I have no idea about the east coast labor market, but in Bay Area $250k is what an I4-I5 gets payed at medium/large RSU granting companies.

As a software developer at I4+ you have to

- Be able to independently complete start-to-finish large features in reasonable time

- Drive resolution of complex problems (fix any bugs with your code and medium bugs elsewhere)

- Deliver high-quality work (low bug rate, low failure rate, high flexibility, great coding style, automation, documentation)

- Introduce improvement ideas and get them implemented (gets harder the more people get involved)

- Own a functional area end-to-end

- Have product-wide technical and functional knowledge (know everything that your department is working on from both developer and customer perspectives)

- Mentor junior engineers

- Excel at communication

- Participate in recruiting

If you can demonstrate the above, you should have no problems getting hired at $250k+ in Bay Area.

Getting to above $500k is another story. Took me 20 years.

ryanx435• 8 years ago

RSU is "restricted stock unit"?

so basically you get equity worth 250k. But what is the actual take home pay amount?

aminotaa3• 8 years ago

For individual contributors, equity and bonus range from 50% to 100% of base.

For leadership, equity and bonus are from 100% to 300%.

For senior leadership you might as well have your base at $1 if you are into those kinds of stunts.

cam3ham• 8 years ago

$250K salary + RSUs? Or $250K total compensation?

Because the latter isn't that great with the COL in the Bay area. Also, if the company isn't already public... then forget about the RSUs!

aminotaa3• 8 years ago

$250k+ total comp.

Companies that offer high base tend to be lackluster on bonus and equity.

RSUs, if offered, are tradable in almost all cases. Options are vapor 90% of the time.

COL in Bay Area is not that much higher compared to TX, WA or CO.

vbtemp4• 8 years ago

Good formalization of a value statement

throwaway713824• 8 years ago

If you're already making $150k, get a remote job for $100k. Remote can be a bit more competitive to land, but there are some low paying companies out there who's hiring is comparatively loose.

Ideally, your main job is low effort giving you time during your day for some moonlighting. Or get two remote jobs. Yes, I'm proposing working too jobs concurrently. Some people find this objectionable, but for salary positions I don't. IF neither job keeps you busy, why not?

Edit; Low performing teams in low performing organizations rarely require 4 hours of effort per day. If you do get 4 hours of good effort in these places, you're still a super star. One could easily do 40 hours a week and excel at both. Check your assumptions.

Bottom line is if you're capable in this profession, you're leaving money on the table.

paulddraper2• 8 years ago

strong enough salary to raise a family

Working 80+ hrs a week isn't usually compatible with raising a family.

eatenbyagrue• 8 years ago

This is a great way to get fired from two jobs.

throwawaymath2• 8 years ago

The creativity coming out in this thread in order to sidestep the spirit of OP's question is remarkable. First we had comments talking about reframing the problem as one of cost of living, now the top comment is recommending working two jobs concurrently as a remote employee...what the hell.

OP clearly meant $250k at a single company. It would be nice if we didn't respond to that request by trying to interpret it as some sort of shitty X-Y problem like StackExchange. OP is (probably) an adult. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt that they don't need a weird lecture about how they're leaving money on the table and should abuse remote employement in response.

On a more practical note, there are two problems with your recommendation. First and foremost, many (most?) companies have an employment agreement forbidding freelancing or full time work with another company. Intellectual property gets very tricky if an employee is working for a company with a substantially similar product or market. If you're found out, you'd likely be fired.

Second, you're asking us to check our assumptions but your assumptions are frankly ridiculous. "Low performing teams in low performing organizations rarely require 4 hours of effort per day"?! How are you quantifying this? It's not just about net hours, it's also about contiguous time. What if you have consistently conflicting meetings? Your plan is to be someone sufficiently capable to excel at two jobs simultaneously with 40 hours or fewer per week, but this is a more sane option than reaching $250k at one company? Really?

vbtemp4• 8 years ago

Thank you!

The question was simply what steps should one take (in tech) to become valuable enough to earn a highly-substantial premium in earnings -- to cross the next threshold so to speak -- using approx $250K as a benchmark.

Responses about changing lifestyle, location, or ponderings on the meaning of wealth in our modern age are simply not responses to the question posed.

paulddraper2• 8 years ago

Location is high-COL big-metro east coast city

Well, since half the comments here are referring to California, I'll go ahead and make my off-topic location suggestion too.

Live in Austin or Kansas City or Las Vegas or Boulder or Salt Lake City.

I live in Salt Lake and you can easily buy a brand new 4k sq ft house with a < 30 min commute for less than $600k. There are tons of software jobs, it's family friendly, and it's an hour to world-class skiing or three hours to some of the most beautiful national parks.

I'm 28, have three kids and a house and an RV camper, my wife has never worked anything more than fun hobby jobs, we vacation to NY/LA as much as we want, and in general we live rather comfortably.

It's nice to tell yourself you earn $250k. But does 30% more pay make up for a 300% more expensive mortgage?

Ask HN: What steps can I take to earn $250K+?

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