Thank you, Ubuntu

http://psung.blogspot.com/2010/10/thank-you-ubuntu.html

by rglullis • 16 years ago

164 127 16 years ago

psung.blogspot.com

1tw• 16 years ago

"it runs on every piece of hardware you throw at it"

That's what continues to impress me about Ubuntu - I've installed it on everything from PPC-era Macs to dodgy little netbooks and it invariably 'just works'.

aufreak3• 16 years ago

Nevertheless, I'd advice reading the release notes before installing. My mom's laptop happened to have the precise laptop configuration that Lucid Lynx release notes warned I'd have trouble with ... and I hadn't read it :)

My mom's been using Ubuntu! 'Nuff said I think.

code_duck5• 16 years ago

Mine too! I just reinstalled 10.04 for her on a random old Dell laptop yesterday, as we'd been upgrading all the way since 8.04. It has been so much more trouble-free than XP for her.

I was having trouble configuring the wireless, I thought... then I noticed my Mac wouldn't connect, either! Rebooted the router, and indeed everything Ubuntu installed worked out of the box.

scrrr• 16 years ago

Not every hardware. There's still problems from time to time but in 95% of cases it works. And that's still better than having to deal with Windows and its problems.

rbanffy6• 16 years ago

There was a time when you had to carefully choose your hardware to work with Linux. These days, you have to carefully choose your hardware in order to experience problems.

I am surprised by how many people do the latter.

patio11• 16 years ago

If 95% of components work on Ubuntu, and your computer life involves 25 components (start counting, you'll hit it pretty quickly), Ubuntu is totally broken for about 75% or so of users. If Mom's camera or wireless doesn't work, she does not perceive the computer as being mostly functional.

sprout3• 16 years ago

I don't think it takes that much effort to have trouble with suspend/hibernate. I've found it to be the rule rather than the exception.

docgnome• 16 years ago

The only bit of hardware I've had problems with recently is Broadcom wireless cards. Worse Drivers ever. I still won't ever buy one intentionally and when I find one will replace it with an intel or something else that works with out a giant hassle.

rick_20473• 16 years ago

The new ubuntus do not work with intel graphics cards. I do not want to go through workarounds just to get rid of the screen freeze when it boots. I used Ubuntu for like 7.04 but after 8.10 I think the gfx started to break and by 9.10 they are totally unworkable, I have to restart (hard) several times to start xorg.

gvb2• 16 years ago

I would rephrase that "[some] Intel graphics cards do not work with the new Ubuntus". The problem is that Intel has chosen to prevent Ubuntu from supporting those graphics cards, not that Ubuntu cannot support them and not that Ubuntu choses to not support them.

In the cases that I looked at, Intel licensed graphics "IP" from third parties that had severe restrictions on what technical information could be published openly, making it incompatible with GPL.

stonemetal• 16 years ago

Considering they have problems with two of the three graphics card vendors and wubi doesn't work if you have more than one hard disk partition, just works isn't how I would describe it. Good when it does and mostly works pretty much describes it.

kylec2• 16 years ago

Not all hardware. I couldn't even get the install disc for 10.04 to boot on my 2010 13" MacBook Pro. I'll give it another try when 10.10 comes out, but Ubintu definitely does not "just work" on all hardware.

Raphael_Amiard• 16 years ago

Well the way OSS drivers developpment works means that you're far more likely to experience problems with new hardware than with old hardware. That, plus the mac pro, even if it is an intel based machine, is the most closed hardware you could find on this platform. So, "couldn't even" may not be the right choice of word for your situation .

rbanffy6• 16 years ago

Installing Ubuntu on a MacBook feels wrong. It was designed to run MacOS X. Even the chassis finish matches the window chrome...

In my interesting computer collection, I have a couple IBM PPC/POWER machines. When I acquired the first one, it took me some work to procure a set of AIX disks (DDS tapes would do) that would install on the machine. Several friends of mine suggested I should install Debian and be done with it, but I felt that would make them less interesting and opposed it. When I finally installed AIX, I felt they were complete, with the system they were designed to run, it all its CDE glory.

Last time I plugged a Mac keyboard on my Linux netbook, not even the function keys worked. It muted the speaker when I tried a search...

tvon• 16 years ago

Odd, I regularly see complaints here on HN of this or that not working, and the response seems to often be that you have to pay attention to what hardware you buy and you can't expect everything to work... often with a snarky comment about OSX only being made for Apple hardware.

grease2• 16 years ago

I started using Ubuntu on my desktop when I started developing for the web and because my web-server ran ubuntu. Love the fact that I can have a server-like OS on my desktop, that also does pretty much does everything that windows and macs do

borisk3• 16 years ago

Both Windows and Mac OS X have server versions, that can easily be installed on desktops.

CrazedGeek• 16 years ago

...neither of which come with the normal versions (and, indeed, are quite a bit more expensive), so most people will never even touch them on their PCs.

grease2• 16 years ago

Seriously? Would you run a web-app on a Mac or Windows server?

code_duck5• 16 years ago

I've been using Ubuntu since 6.04, longer than any other Linux distribution (one or the other has been my main desktop since 1999). I have to say, though that of course, Ubuntu wouldn't exist as it is without the grandeur of Debian - thanks, Debian.

unwantedLetters• 16 years ago

You probably meant 6.06. That was my first Ubuntu as well, though it was also my first Linux distribution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ubuntu_releases

code_duck5• 16 years ago

Right, 6 something is all I remember at this point! Huh... looking at that list, it might have been even earlier, because I remember Breezy Badger and Hoary Hedgehog. I recall Dapper Drake being a particularly good release, so you jumped in at a good time!

So, I guess actually 5.04 was when I moved over from Debian. I think it was before Debian Sarge was released, which apparently was 2 months before Hoary Hedgehog, so that makes sense.

pastiche• 16 years ago

Ahh... Ubuntu. I've been using Linux since pretty much forever and I've gone through Debian, Mandrake, Gentoo, Slackware, you name it.

Sure, Ubuntu has its fair share of idiosyncrasies, not to mention idiotic bits and a... peculiar developer community, to say the least, but on the whole it manages to combine the flexibility and openness of Linux with some of the nicer aspects of closed platforms like OS X.

Bring on 10.10 and beyond!

MisterWebz3• 16 years ago

I've been having a lot of problems with Ubuntu. First of all, wireless on Ubuntu sucks. I can't be bothered reading tons of articles on how to fix wireless, i just want it to work like it does on Windows. Ubuntu doesn't detect a few of my webcams. I can't even install Ubuntu 10.04 on my new laptop (though it seems they're busy fixing it), so i'm stuck with 9.04. I'm also having some trouble with Chrome on Ubuntu, but i should probably blame Chrome for that. Rebooting on Ubuntu doesn't even work. I can only shut it down. I could probably fix it in a timely fashion, but i don't see why it broke in the first place. I've never had any trouble with Windows of this kind.

Anyway, It's still a great OS, but there's no way the average computer user is going to be satisfied with Ubuntu unless the developers somehow fix these little annoyances.

wazoox• 16 years ago

The drivers problems are a manufacturer problem, not Ubuntu's. Complain against the manufacturer, so that they know that people actually want linux drivers. Vote with your wallet, buy linux compatible hardware. Don't blame Ubuntu for others' mistakes.

MisterWebz3• 16 years ago

Sure, i might have unnecessarily blamed Ubuntu, but it's still a problem that needs to be fixed. And as long as that problem exists, i won't recommend Ubuntu to the average computer user.

Scott_MacGregor• 16 years ago

That is correct. No hardware will work with every OS. Certain hardware will support certain versions of Ubuntu though. It makes life a lot easier and saves an enormous amount of time if you research what the hardware will support first, and then use the correct hardware and OS combinations. With an unsupported combination sometimes it will look like everything is ok but you will have intermittent problems such as USB ports not working sometimes, or other issues. With the correct combination of hardware Ubuntu will work fine.

mgunes3• 16 years ago

There's no way the "average computer user" is going to be satisfied with an operating system that doesn't come preinstalled on their computer, that isn't officially supported by the manufacturer of their computer, and that they consequently have to deal with the various possible technical problems of.

Non-technical users don't install operating systems.

Ubuntu is the closest candidate to fixing the structural problem of "very few computers come preinstalled with a supported, free-as-in-freedom operating system". Until that problem is fixed, and as long as people are ending up having to install an operating system on arbitrary computers with millions of different hardware combinations, such annoyances will continue at some level.

pbhjpbhj• 16 years ago

>Non-technical users don't install operating systems.

Look, this is probably generally true - however, the last bare metal Ubuntu install I did was as simply as insert disc, click the install prompts, accept all defaults and your done. Yeah, it took an hour or two all told.

It certainly has been quite different in the past but any user that can watch a DVD on their computer can install an [selected] OS if they want to.

Hardware compatibility is another question. If the manufacturers would just test and have a "Ubuntu ready" label then that issue would be largely moot, at least as much so as with MS Windows.

sami_b• 16 years ago

I ♥ Ubuntu, and have been since 7.04

IgorPartola6• 16 years ago

I keep try to evangelize the fact that things like apt are one of the biggest wins for the various UNIX-like OS's. In Windows world installing software takes both finding it and configuring the installer. On a Mac you have to at least find it. On Ubuntu/Debian/etc you just have to know the name (or you can search a central database). Also no more Java/Flash player/Acrobat Reader "needs to be updated" messages. You update everything at once. And it can all be scripted. And you can update your entire OS to the next major release in three commands. I can go on and on.

demallien• 16 years ago

yeah, until the repository maintainers mess up, create two packages that are in conflict, and yet both installed on your system, and now every attempt to update your software fails because you have out-of-date dependencies that can't be updated due to the conflict.

In case you hadn't noticed, I'm a bit bitter about my fedora install at the moment :)

That said, I think you overestimate the delta between OSX and the various linuxes. On the Mac, as with linux, if you want to use a package that isn't part of the core system, you should package it into your app/lib yourself. The big advantage that the linuxes have is that they have a far bigger range of packages in the repository than you have in a mac's standard install. But by the same token, you can't have as much confidence that all the libs play well together, because they haven't been tested as thoroughly as Mac OSX's set of libs...

spacemanaki3• 16 years ago

I'm not sure I follow your suggestion of "package it into your app/lib yourself". Are you suggesting manually installing stuff that isn't available from Macports or Fink? Or something else? For the record I'm pretty green when it comes to Unix sysadmin stuff so go easy...

I'm genuinely interested - I'm a new Mac user who came from Linux and my biggest issue on the Mac so far is that package management isn't as good as apt. There was a discussion on HN and I was disappointed to find a lot of other people have had the same feeling.

retube• 16 years ago

fedora- are you talking about rpm? Yes, this is a nightmare- package conflicts are common-place, and generally a real b*tch to fix. RPM was the main reason I ditched Fedora and switched to Ubuntu. In 3 years I don't think I've ever had an install failure or conflict or any problem with apt-get. It's always worked flawlessly.

code_duck5• 16 years ago

It's so true - when I configure a Windows machine I can't believe what a pain it is to go find and install all the needed software (go to web page... click... find download area... download... double click... click 800 more times...). And then, uninstallation is a mess. That's one of the things that I think is so silly when people say Linux isn't user friendly, that the package management is really so amazing, and people who have never used Linux really just have no idea.

bryanh• 16 years ago

Check out http://ninite.com/. The name is extremely forgettable (I have it bookmarked under mass installation), but it lets you install dozens of Windows apps with one click!

fauigerzigerk4• 16 years ago

The package manager concept is actually what I hate most about Linux systems and Ubuntu's strategy to not let you upgrade some packages without upgrading the OS itself is insane.

Packages tend to thrust some completely idiosyncratic configuration scheme down my throat that is documented nowhere and that creates conflicts of its own. They don't just solve dependencies they encourage dependencies because they are supposed to be resolved automatically anyway. But they're not. Things break all the time. The Linux dependency hell has far surpassed the infamous Windows DLL hell of the 90s.

I was called to help people fix their Ubuntu installation after some package upgrade had uninstalled half the system. I had an upgrade replace a working but proprietary wifi driver with a non functional "free" one, etc, etc.

Most of the problems I ever had with Ubuntu were caused by that completely broken package management idea. If I want Python 2 and 3 on the same system I can't have a package manager tell me that's not supposed to be when I know full well that it's no problem.

dkarl• 16 years ago

They don't just solve dependencies they encourage dependencies

This is a good thing. Developers' attitude toward dependencies gets very lax when it's too much work to declare them or too much work for the user to satisfy them. Then you get into situations where you install a piece of software and 90% of the functionality is broken, because the developer was "considerate" enough not to "force" a bunch of dependencies on you, so you resort to Google to find the real dependencies, which of course aren't available for your distro. Apt gives developers a flexible way to declare different kinds of dependencies, and the Debian and Ubuntu distro repositories give them confidence that the dependencies will install smoothly for users.

I had much more difficulty with undeclared dependencies back in the day than I have with excessive dependencies now. It's just wrong for software to easily install in a mostly broken state. If you want broken, partly-working software, you should have to do extra work to achieve that, not the other way around.

pronoiac• 16 years ago

Ubuntu's strategy to not let you upgrade some packages without upgrading the OS itself is insane.

You can; it's called "pinning:" https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto

If I want Python 2 and 3 on the same system I can't have a package manager tell me that's not supposed to be when I know full well that it's no problem.

Let me check; here on Jaunty I can separately install python2.4, python2.5, python2.6, python3.0, & python3.1.

I don't doubt that you've had problems with the package managers, but, um, I think you're doing it wrong.

india• 16 years ago

> The package manager concept is actually what I hate most about Linux systems

You really should give Slackware a try. None of that sophisticated package management nuisance[1] and everything just works!

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slackware#Package_management

fungi• 16 years ago

> Ubuntu's strategy to not let you upgrade some packages without upgrading the OS itself is insane.

you're doing it wrong

swies2• 16 years ago

http://ninite.com is getting close to apt-get for Windows. We're working on a Mac version too.

Things are better on Linux, but not all rosy. Installing Dropbox, for example, is a surprisingly crappy experience (windows popping up, separate proprietary daemon download, etc). That, and way more user requests than you'd imagine, is why we have http://ninite.com/linux now too.

IgorPartola6• 16 years ago

Certainly looks promising. For some reason it reminds me of Portable Apps.

As for Dropbox, yes, I recently went through installing it. Terrible experience on Ubuntu. I think the reason is mostly that it is using a proprietary daemon. A FUSE driver seems like a much better idea, and if they released it under an open license, it would be as easy as apt-get install dropbox.

robgough• 16 years ago

I use ninite all the time (it's brilliant!), but only ever for initial installation. Does it handle updating apps?

mdwrigh22• 16 years ago

OS X has a package manager, it just isn't installed by default. Checkout MacPorts or Homebrew.

IgorPartola6• 16 years ago

Yes, I am aware of these projects. They, however, don't have the advantages that things like apt have. For example you cannot use them to update your entire OS. Instead you must order DVD's from Apple, and then boot from them. Yes, installing certain software this way is easier, but it is not nearly as convenient as having the entire OS built around it.

On the other hand, existence of these projects indicates that Mac users are dissatisfied with how installing/updating/maintaining software is done in Mac OS X and are looking for something better.

Lastly, I don't necessarily think that apt is end-all be-all silver bullet answer to all questions. I just think that out of the available technologies today, OS's that are built around package management work better and are easier to use than anything else out there.

dinkumthinkum2• 16 years ago

Bah, it's not really that easy. I remember having an annoyingly difficult time getting a working up-to-date Glade on the latest LTS version. Sure, it worked on the latest Ubuntu just fine, but shouldn't we able to have some popular applications up-to-date without a big mess? But yeah, in general its pretty great.

_b8r02• 16 years ago

It's weird. I used to love Ubuntu, but after 8.04 I just stopped liking it. The little things niggled away at me. The bloat, the fear of upgrades breaking things (this is why my main home file server still runs 8.04, something I'm not happy about) if you have a slightly nonstandard install. I switched to Arch for my main home laptop and breathed new life into a PIII-850 with 128mb of RAM. Ubuntu would've killed it.

In a bizarre twist of fate, work requirements meant having to use Windows Vista (the horror!) then 7, where so far the best feature seems to be "It's not vista", so no more Ubuntu at work for me, except through VMs.

Still, Ubuntu did a heck of a lot to make Linux easier for the masses, and I have to say thanks to all those at Canonical and the Ubuntu community that made it possible.

spiffworks• 16 years ago

I run AwesomeWM on top of minimal Ubuntu install, and I enjoy the best of both worlds. I get access to the whole .deb racket while at the same time getting rid of all the bloat. But you're completely right about upgrades breaking things. Since Jaunty, I can't remember a single upgrade which didn't make me thank god for Dropbox.

eru• 16 years ago

XMonad also works fine.

Andys• 16 years ago

Weird. Its since 8.04 and onwards that upgrades STOPPED breaking things for me. Its been a golden era for Ubuntu.

sprout3• 16 years ago

It seems like since 8.04 they've changed the package naming conventions for LaTeX twice. That's been the biggest pain about upgrading for me, everything else has been a breeze.

_b8r02• 16 years ago

Yeah, I set up disk encryption for all my partitions except for /boot which If I remember from the install (6.06 LTS) wasn't a standard option at the time, upgrading to 8.04 caused me a whole load of grief.

I know I should rebuild it and it'll probably be fine, but if I was going to rebuild I think I'd use Arch instead (just a personal choice).

But the VMs of Ubuntu that I use of newer versions, yeah they're great.

nivertech• 16 years ago

Ubuntu is excellent, except:

1. Firefox and Chrome are very slow and freezing, when opening many tabs.

2. Flash plugin is crashing constantly

3. OpenOffice is very slow and freezing. Can't render properly MS Office documents.

rbanffy6• 16 years ago

> 1. Firefox and Chrome are very slow and freezing, when opening many tabs.

> 2. Flash plugin is crashing constantly

Try that without the flash plugin.

> 3. OpenOffice is very slow and freezing. Can't render properly MS Office documents.

I find it more likely that Office can't save its files according to whatever is the current Office file spec.

metellus• 16 years ago

That may be the case, but I bet Office can handle those documents just fine. The non-techy user doesn't care why something doesn't work. They just care that it doesn't work.

anodari• 16 years ago

1,2. Try using chromium and ff4 (minefield for 64 bits) 3. These are known OO problems, version 3.2 is a lot better.

wyclif2• 16 years ago

I recommend the nightly chromium dev build if you can do it.

Rhapso• 16 years ago

I love ubuntu! Although Lucid has done something that drives me nuts. The devs decided it would be nice to add a Gnome login to Netbook-Remix Sounds nice, but they decided limit a bunch of features in the old interface so it would not conflict. I love you ubuntu but you need to stop taking away my power!

RexRollman• 16 years ago

I like Ubuntu quite a bit, I just wish they would offer a Base install option. I like their hardware detection, Gnome modifications, and font smoothing, but I am not a fan of the Ubuntu One stuff or its kitchen sink approach to including software.

Basically, I just want Ubuntu's Base Gnome package, so that from there I can add want I want.

mgunes3• 16 years ago

Try the gnome-stracciatella-session package, or choose the "Install a command-line system" option in the alternate installer and add what you like later.

billiob• 16 years ago

I'm so sad that so many HNers can not understand what is the real value added by Ubuntu. If more hardware is supported, it's because the kernel tends to get drivers for most hardware nowadays. If apps are getting better, it's not because of Ubuntu, but because of the apps developers. The power of Ubuntu is only on marketting.

CaseOfEmergency• 16 years ago

I kind of agree with this. The article is not really about Ubuntu, it is about Linux distros in general. I have been using Mandrake/Mandriva for at least eight years. I tried Ubuntu a while ago to see if the buzz was justified. I was unconvinced. The "user-friendliness" was lower than Mandriva. But it seems Mandriva does not have the mind share that Ubuntu seems to have captured.

On the other hand, Ubuntu's success is success for Linux in general, so I have nothing against it. It just surprises me.

moo• 16 years ago

My workplace experience is that most of these so called "average Windows users" don't even understand the Windows environment to a functional level and need hand holding to use basic features like Remote Desktop, create a mapped drive, or navigate the file system. They don't have any interest in learning more about computers, they just absorb the minimum possible computer skills to perform required office work. They don't even really understand the office tools they use everyday like Microsoft Office. As ignorant as they are about Windows they are more than willing to jump ship to an unfamiliar Apple computer as they have heard it is even more simple to use. These "office workers" know how to click(oops), then double click the big motha icon to open the data entry application, and type away all day, then leave the application open so they don't have to open it again. This stuff is going to simplify down to something like a fast food restaurant cash register with food icons on the keys.

endlessvoid94• 16 years ago

I love ubuntu as much as the next guy. I run all my servers with ubuntu.

But to say that Mac OS X is not as usable as ubuntu is blatantly wrong.

barnaby• 16 years ago

I too used to think like you do. But I've been using Ubuntu at work, and now when I go on a Mac I actually miss the usability features of Ubuntu.

Just a tiny example: hitting alt and clicking anywhere on a window to move it instead of going to that top bar. Or the multiple different ways to switch between apps. etc. etc. There's probably 100 small things that I now can't live without. So I would say the statement "Mac Os X is not as usable as Ubuntu" is actually true. Surprisingly.

alinajaf• 16 years ago

I would agree with this. At my new job I was forced to use a Mac for my first couple of weeks and it was like being put in a straight-jacket. A lot of the gui can be manipulated from the keyboard in gnome, and this is what I missed the most. If Mac had alternatives I'd be happy to use them, but they weren't immediately obvious after a google or two.

Conversely if you're a 'mouse person' then this may not be an issue for you.

sandGorgon• 16 years ago

i am considering moving to fedora from ubuntu. one of my motivations is descriptions of better user experiences overall, plus more cutting edge stuff like systemd. morever i think i am growing more and more colored by the notion thar ubuntu doesnt really employ a significant number of core developers.

does anyone have experience of the differences in the daily experience of using fedora vs ubuntu, especially for a clean simple experience, as a developer machine setup?

mikedanko• 16 years ago

I'm a Fedora contributor and closet Ubuntu user. While I can get extremely upset at how difficult things can be in Fedora, like python and ruby, I generally try and take care of these things myself anyway. And who's not using RVM so why does it matter in the first place?

Truth is, I spend way too much time hacking at my Fedora system to make things work. It gets frustrating. I fall back to the Ubuntu systems and somehow, it's just easier. I'd comment on the details here, but it is madness.

So why even bother with Fedora at all? People. I can't stand Ubuntu people. From uneducated bloggers to Ubuntu fanbois, it drives me insane. You know there's a popular blog called OMG Ubuntu!? As far as uneducated views, there's a lot of talk about how awesome NetworkManager is in Ubuntu... you know where all that awesomeness came from? Fedora!

The Fedora community? Just amazing talented people all over the place. I can't stand to give them up. Some of the most awesome, unique, thoughtful and mindful people I've ever met all have Fedora in common.

In the end, I can't see how much feature X has to do with anything over it not existing in another distro. I can sort of see how something as shiny and new as a new Ubuntu release can be appealing, but not enough to move me. It all comes down to people, and Fedora has what really matters here.

blasdel• 16 years ago

I share your absolute hatred of the Ubuntu user community — from inane theming to blogspam with <pre> elements that contain huge blocks of sudo apt-get install…

mfukar• 16 years ago

Yup, Ubuntu is awesome. After installing it for the first time, I never went back to other distros for my GNU/Linux desktops.

Too bad that Canonical is unsustainable, and we'll soon lose it if FOSS enthusiasts don't shift their mindset a little bit.

tzury• 16 years ago

regarding all rants in here, I simply cannot understand how could people complain so much about such a good product given to them for free.

known• 16 years ago

Love you, Ubuntu.

nagnatron• 16 years ago

For me, the best thing about Ubuntu is that they really care and more importantly, invest, into the UI experience.

Thank you, Ubuntu

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