Are My Friends Really My Friends?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/12/style/who-are-my-real-friends.html

by dsr12 • 8 years ago

222 57 8 years ago

amelius• 8 years ago

Perhaps we need a Twitter-like restriction: not a limitation of 140 characters, but instead a limitation of 140 friends.

tzakrajs• 8 years ago

This is a good idea for a platform specifically for close friends.

jwilliams• 8 years ago

The Path social network did just that. Originally 50. Then 150 and now I believe 500.

mtgx• 8 years ago

It's called Dunbar's number, and I agree all social media platforms should have that limitation by default. Once you reach that number, all the rest should be followers (if you agree to allow them to follow you).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

DrImplausible• 8 years ago

So you're saying there /are/ things that the social sciences can contribute to data science? This is my complete lack of surprise...

dredmorbius• 8 years ago

There was a social network based on this premise, Path:

http://observer.com/2011/09/the-path-to-dunbars-number-and-y...

Apparently still extant, though it failed to take the world by storm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_(social_network)

Its initial experience is underwhelming.

https://path.com/login

leetcrew• 8 years ago

disclaimer: i am only in my mid-twenties, so perhaps i lack sufficient perspective on this topic. i can only compare the landscape today against my childhood friendships.

i do remember having fewer, closer friends when i was younger. at the same time, i don't feel that we had much in common other than being the same age, in the same place, and being part of the "outgroup". i valued these relationships very much (and still do), but they represented the exhaustion of the local pool of viable friends. we spent so much time together and developed strong bonds mainly because there was no clear way to access a more global pool to select from.

today i have many acquaintances with whom i routinely share deep conversations over very specific interests (even irl!), and it is relatively easy to find more of these if i desire. while my social life is much more intellectually rich, it is definitely harder to develop a trusted confidant; conversations just never seem to naturally flow into that territory.

to me, it seems like the older style of friendship and the modern friendship occupy different places on roughly the same pareto frontier. you can certainly prefer one or the other, but i don't feel that either is intrinsically better.

everdev• 8 years ago

Sometimes we think a friend does everything for us -- invites us out, listens to us, shares with us, teaches us, dares us, helps us grow, etc.

Reality is certain people are better at certain things. Some friends will always go out and show you a good time, but they're not going to challenge you to be a better person. When you can accept them for the gifts they're willing and able to give, that's when you're friends.

xvedejas• 8 years ago

I have managed to achieve friendships with the best aspects of both situations you mention, by renting a large house with five of my college friends right after school. We met due to shared interests and we routinely have deep conversations in the evenings. And now we also do a lot of things together, since we're the obvious people to approach to fulfill social needs, that we're developing strong bonds.

jackgolding• 8 years ago

I would say the opposite as someone who has moved around a fair bit in their life - the only people I've kept in touch with after I've moved have been those who I have a lot in common with. Now I'm in my late twenties shudders the only friends I've kept from my past lives are earning very well, living in a City and having a quarter life crisis (generally not stimulated by work, apprehensive to invest in very expensive property, having trouble getting into a romantic relationship)!

thestephen• 8 years ago

I am in the same age group and had the same experience as you when it comes to friends in the childhood.

However, I have a different experience than you when it comes to adulthood. While I do have acquaintances I have great conversations with in niche areas, I have some very close friends I share a lot with.

This did not come for free. Intimate, strong friendships was something formed by engaging in self-disclosure and intimacy, and slowly escalating this behavior. This can be hard, and from my experience, men are less used to this form of bonding.

forvelin• 8 years ago

This seems like some sort of a epidemic, the internet infecting the way of relationship development we had for decades.

Now we know where to get jobs -job boards-, where to get relationships -tinderlike apps and bars- but we have no idea for where to find people who we click with.

piyh• 8 years ago

Bumble BFF was that for me. Sometimes the answer is another app.

sotojuan• 8 years ago

Law of the internet says any app that is geared towards friendship will be used for dating or sex, regardless of its marketing or advertising. Even sites/apps like Interpals or HelloTalk, which are 100% focused on language exchange, struggle with this all the time.

Outside of work/school, most people find friends in their hobbies such as gym, improv, board game, etc. Any activity that has people doing stuff together could work. You find them IRL or online.

welly2• 8 years ago

How do you think people used to make friends? I'll give you a clue. Work, school, university, clubs for particular interest groups (hiking, pottery, computers, flower arranging, making beer etc.)

All of which still exist and if nothing else is easier to discover these days than in the past.

ravenstine3• 8 years ago

Meetup.com, for all its follies, is still a great place to meet lots of people with common interests.

jm__87• 8 years ago

Personally I feel like many millenials (of which I am also one) just have too many distractions we can indulge in at home by ourselves now (internet, social media, youtube, netflix, video games), so there is no boredom to quench to force yourself out of your house to do stuff. For me, turning off autoplay on youtube and netflix, selling my video games, cancelling cable TV, quitting Facebook and Reddit have all had a net positive impact on my life. Of course there are still people in my generation who do go out and do stuff and you can be one of them too if you choose to be.

imh• 8 years ago

I'll second that. Cut out the mildly boredom quenching pastimes (like Netflix) and cut out the pseudo-interaction pastimes (like Facebook), and what's left are the higher value things you already wish you did more of. You'll find yourself getting a little more bored without Netflix and a little more in need of socializing without Facebook, which makes gets you over the mental threshold to doing those high value activities naturally.

ravenstine3• 8 years ago

I don't disagree, but I also think this isn't merely a generational thing. I've long noticed my parent's generation slowly melting in front of TVs, flipping between boring show after boring show, hardly spending time doing other things or forming friendships. Millennials are really just like their parents, but for them the TV remote became their mobile phones.

ALee• 8 years ago

Is it me or are we asking too much of our relationships? In the past, relationships were based on proximity more than anything else, but now int he world of endless choice, we seem to want more from our friends, our partners, our co-workers, etc.

I think the whole thing is just so tiring. I think almost everyone I know would do something if I were in trouble and if I asked them (to a point, I don't know anyone who would want to take care of me for a month - even myself).

I read recently that marriage is becoming the same thing where we want our partner to be EVERYTHING - the drinking buddy, the confidante, the psychological help, the travel partner... and supposedly that makes everyone unsatisfied with their partner because it's such a stupidly tall order. Do we hire people to do all those things for us too? On the other side though, if you find that person, you get REALLY good marriages. I would suspect the same is true with friendships. Instead of being worried whether a friend is a true friend, just relish that you have friends who can serve different purposes in your life and if you have a close one - enjoy it.

pm90• 8 years ago

Social media and the easy flow of information is perhaps partly to blame. Its much easier to see how/what the other people in your social graph are doing with their friends and feel your friends/relationships are inadequate. It seems to lead some very severe feeling of FOMO in many people I know.

But your advice is absolutely spot on.

k__4• 8 years ago

What is wrong from wanting friends that can give you more than just proximity?

mtreis86• 8 years ago

It is fine if they are strong enough to provide more than basic friendship. But many people are effectively drowning in life and can't really help anyone else swim.

watwut2• 8 years ago

Nothing. But, you should give to them too then. And sometimes people just have too much on their plate to give and you should be the one giving.

lostcolony2• 8 years ago

I think that's the wrong way of looking at it.

In the past, when proximity was the biggest thing, we'd look to invest more in the people proximate to us.

They like something I don't? Okay, fine, I'll do it, so I have a friend. And vice versa. I may not really care about doing X, but it's a way to connect.

Now? Now we are willing to keep looking. We want perfect friends. We are less willing to invest time in people nothing like ourselves, because it's comparatively easy to find others.

Even as i kid, I remember friendships that were basically "This kid is in my neighborhood" or "This kid's parents go to the same church as my parents", and that was it. Oh, they liked to rollerblade? Okay, I guess I'll learn to do that. I like video games; they'd learn to like that. Etc.

Now? Now it's superhard; even places I'm proximate to others, why would I choose to spend time with them outside of the one activity that brings us in proximity?

bogomipz• 8 years ago

"Is it me or are we asking too much of our relationships?"

I understood the thrust of the article to be "the quality of human interactions" with our friends(its even in the title.) How can that be asking too much? Is it even possible to launch an actual friendship without meaningful interactions?

tjr225• 8 years ago

I think you're right on. A lot of my friends are of various ages and backgrounds with different hobbies. Some friends I only see once a month when we want to get together for some beers and catch up. Some less than that - and there's nothing wrong with relationships like that. In fact I would argue that those relationships tend to be more sincere.

vertexFarm• 8 years ago

Exactly. You know what I like from a friend? Just somebody to feel comfortable around. We don't even really need to have good conversation or share interests, though those can be a plus. I like somebody who can be there and I don't feel anxious or have to put on my public face. That's really it.

I don't want them to do a bunch of shit for me. I hate it when people do me a bunch of favors. It might be a character flaw of mine. But I can't stand the term "fair-weather friend" either. I'd never ask you to drag me out of a rough spell, so don't expect that I'm going to help you with all this bullshit. If you don't like that, fine. I can find someone else to be comfortable around.

sage76• 8 years ago

Why do you even want friends?

mendelk• 8 years ago

Relevant podcast episode: When Did Marriage Become So Hard?

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/12/584531641/when-did-marriage-b...

ende• 8 years ago

Absolutley. Someone once said to me “different friends for different purposes”, and that’s been reliable advice across multiple types of relationships; especially significant others.

Canada• 8 years ago

Back in the days when IRC ruled we were connected by interest instead of proximity. I think most of those friends also faded but that protocol had no persistence so we aren't reminded of them.

spdebbarma• 8 years ago

I just want to say that IRC is still pretty much alive and kicking. Come back, it's still as fun as it was.

eswat• 8 years ago

I still hang around one channel for an Unreal Tournament (then Half-Life 2) mod. 15 years at this point and some great people are still in there (and been interesting to see how everyones lives have changed after meeting )

varjag• 8 years ago

Yet in a way it's more persistent than anything.

Hanging on a few ancient IRC channels; the oldest is about to turn 20. Several others yet are still older than my teenage son. I remember following 9/11 on IRC in real time, before it hit the TV..

txdv• 8 years ago

I have a channel of 'friends', the most despicable people I have ever encountered, and it is and was the most fun channel to hang out in

KhanMahGretsch• 8 years ago

According to Aristotle [0], there are three types of friendship: friendship of utility; friendship of pleasure; friendship of the good.

I find this to be a useful framework for considering the varying kinds of platonic relationships one can have.

[0] https://stpeterslist.com/the-3-types-of-friendship-according...

watwut2• 8 years ago

Maybe he was wrong and oversimplified relationships.

donttrack• 8 years ago

Adolf Hitler said the same thing.

hkmurakami• 8 years ago

Put away the phone, and unfollow "friends" on social networks aggressively if you're not a fan of the dynamics described in the article.

Tomminn• 8 years ago

My way of evaluating who my real friends are is by asking myself one question: "Are these the people I'd want to be around if war broke out?".

Similarly, a question I often ask myself to make sure I'm not becoming trivial and shallow: "Am I the kind of person people would want to be around if war broke out?".

headsoup• 8 years ago

I think there's a lot of people keeping 'casual' friends, just because they're there (online). And by that I mean not like a forum where you log in and see who's online or chat on topics of interest, in this case those 'friends' are there ready to communicate instantly, all topics are presented, etc.

I.e. they like posts, comment and stay across events of vague acquaintances because it's easier than 'un-friending' them (and maybe some FOMO too).

I.e.I.e. They're friends we'd otherwise do without, but yet put in light effort just because and it adds up to more than expected.

snarfy• 8 years ago

If you show up to my funeral I'll be happy.

phamilton• 8 years ago

If you don’t go to folk’s funerals how can you expect them to come to yours?

technological• 8 years ago

Life long friends can be formed anytime but I think you make such friends during undergrad. Back in India during Engineering (i.e ungrad ) I made 8 life long friends because it was age where I was bit mature and not childish (compared to my time in school) , had no responsibilities (financial) and had lot of time , so it was so nice to get along with ppl and make a good bond. Compared to other phases of life where I am either childhish or there lot competition between group of people where real motive of forming bond is different.

ravenstine3• 8 years ago

Friendship, as defined in this day and age, is overrated. It's my opinion, for sure. But let me tell you why I feel this way.

As the article mentions, Gen Y's idea of socializing is having lots of "friends" that remain as such because of technological ties, and chatting through IM and photo sharing. The problem with this form of socializing, for me, is that much of it is a result of everyone's ulterior motive to look good and obtain social validation. In all honesty, I haven't proven to be a very likable person, but I hesitate to have people add me as a "friend" on social media because next thing I know they're going to include group photos of me in order to covertly signal "I have so much fun and so many friends! Look at me! Look at me!" Worse yet, they'll feel that much better that I'm going to add reactions to their banal postings, making them feel like everything they have to say is socially approved of.

It's all gross.

By the by, I've learned that I can go very long periods of time without being around friends(I'm talking months) and, well, I don't die. In fact, I'm pretty happy that I can spend time doing what I want without being hounded to go see X movie or hang out at Y place. Those things can be good here and there, but they're not all life is about. Friends also tend to bring drama that brings nothing to my life; most drama is hyperbole and people bring it upon themselves. Those same drama-friends inevitably ask for advice, but not because they actually want help, but because they want you to validate the decision they've already made.

I've had my periods in life where I felt terrible for having few or no friends. There is definitely a downside, especially when you're younger. But the pursuit of friends is a sign that a person is lacking self-esteem, and perhaps confidence in the one or two friends they already have. As I've gotten older, having friends for reasons other than just the simplicity of having someone to shoot the shit with on occasion has fallen by the wayside. Just as I've given up with the futile pursuit of working my ass off for the lie that working hard is a virtue in and of itself, and as I've given up on trying to pursue the illusion of salvation provided by relationships, I just don't even care anymore about maintaining friends or social circles.

Yeah, it'd be one thing if I was literally alone for a very long time. But it would actually take effort to be truly alone, I gather, for most people. No matter where I've been, or how old I am, someone eventually manages to enter my life and become more than just an acquaintance. We can chat it up on a regular basis, and usually have enough familiarity that we know we can count on each other for small things. It just seems to work out that way, and that accounts for most of what I need out of people; I don't need to share every moment of my waking being with them. Some people have got it tough, and I've known some people who have real issues that hinder them in making even basic connections with people. But, for the average person, I think they'd be surprised to still manage to make friends even if they permanently turned off all their devices.

I do have a best friend, and that is something special. We rarely see each other anymore, but that's where confidence comes in. He and I have known each other for long enough that, no matter what, we're always going to be friends. If work gets in the way that means we won't see or even talk to each other for months or years, it's like no time has passed when we do get to meet again. We don't fret about these things because life really does move on whether we are in the same room or not.

As great as that friendship is, I would function very much the same without it. I hope it doesn't hurt my friend to read this if he ever does, although I'm almost positive he would have guessed that of me, and I think he's much the same. I've learned to be content enough with my own being, my own thoughts, that the need for other people has been greatly diminished. I'm sure some of that is simply a function of getting older, having had enough experiences, and having one's hormones become increasingly scant.

Your friends are what you make of them, and I don't think a lot of people's ideas of what makes a friend is worth as much as social media has made it appear. It's really fine to simply accept that friendship can and usually does have a very low bar, thus, if your friendships seem transient, it's just a function of average people socializing with other average people, and gradually meeting better people over time. Being content in your being and valuing yourself means that this question of "Are my friends really my friends?" isn't all that important.

Are My Friends Really My Friends?

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