Why I Left the U.S. 20 Years Ago and Why I Won't Be Coming Back

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/personal-proffitt-lemarchand-why-i-left-the-us-20-years-ago-and-why-i-wont-be-coming-back_us_5adf7407e4b07be4d4c57b26

by arunc • 8 years ago

38 53 8 years ago

huffingtonpost.com

amriksohata• 8 years ago

There's a thought that the only people that can mentally hack capitalism and the stresses that come with it are a very few number of people, they often becomes owners of companies or directors. The rest of us have to follow the system to work and earn in it and dont always subscribe to it's ideals. That's why I like her courage to use the word brainwashed, something American media think only happens to people of other governments.

mpweiher3• 8 years ago

Why do you think the main issue is "can" and not "why on earth would you want to"?

I remember a very poignant New Yorker cartoon, with a bunch of elderly gently WASP-ish looking folk and one whispering to another: "Money is life's report card".

javajosh2• 8 years ago

She is on-the-nose about the upsides, but doesn't talk about the downsides enough, IMO. It's tough leaving friends and family behind. Also, the creature comforts! They don't have Costco or Trader Joes or good diners in Europe. Knowing where to buy things, knowing the language (the worst thing is navigating phone trees in another language), knowing how the various systems of which you are a apart work. You realize how much knowledge has seeped into you, almost by osmosis, that you take for granted, and now it's gone. New knowledge will seep in, in time, and meanwhile you must be okay being ignorant, and therefore at risk.

mpweiher3• 8 years ago

creature comforts! They don't have Costco or Trader Joes or good diners

Hmm...I think you'll find that the creature comforts are actually a lot more comfy in most of Europe, which is of course a very large and diverse area. Of course, it will take you a while to figure those out, because things are different.

rdiddly• 8 years ago

It's funny about the social connections... I feel like I could emigrate no problem, because I already left everybody behind when I quit Facebook. Or here's a twist, I could rejoin Facebook and "work remote" from anywhere.

I've never felt as weak an affinity with the USA as I do now, but habit and inertia have kept me here so far...

fwdpropaganda6• 8 years ago

They don't have Costco or Trader Joes or good diners in Europe.

That you include chains of whatever on the list of downsides to leaving your country, says something. Maybe something about you, maybe something about your country. It's not good what it says though.

EDIT: I think you might be the kind of person the author is talked about when she says "brainwashed". If the specific franchise of restaurant that you like is such a huge factor in your life, maybe you've just been brainwashed. And this is not even mentioning the breathtaking ignorance of saying there's no good diners "in Europe".

d1zzy• 8 years ago

Don't dismiss the knowledge of store chains as something silly and bad. It's about life's little needs. You need to know where to buy tons of little items for the right price/quality and moving countries means all that knowledge needs to be rebuilt. Since I buy most of these things from the various chains then yes, moving countries means having discover again the chains/stores that I need.

I actually felt this when I moved from Europe to the US. Suddenly I had no idea where to buy food ingredients, kitchen items, etc that weren't too expensive but were not of crappy quality either. Even the relative value of things (ex. is a $4 loaf of bread expensive or cheap? Converting to the previous currency and comparing prices doesn't work at all). Also, Europeans don't realize but the US has a lot more choices for almost everything (well, I guess except broadband Internet and some other things, heh). That's great in general but it's overwhelming to the newcomer.

zenbai• 8 years ago

It reminds me of that dystopian mega simcity city that was on the front page a few days ago.

I guess people in that city feel the same ... they need their familiar chains in their cookie cutter neighborhoods or they feel lost.

javajosh2• 8 years ago

May you get flagged and banned for your pointless, cruel, thoughtless contempt.

Aaargh203183• 8 years ago

They don't have (..) good diners in Europe.

LOLWUT ?

She mentions she lives in the south of France. I don't think she has to worry about access to good food. Why would anyone who moved to Europe want to go back to the US for their shitty food ?

mantas• 8 years ago

Trader Joes is literally re-labeled European chain.

josephh• 8 years ago

As a self-proclaimed libertarian, this is the first thing that came to mind: we need more people like her! The more people we have who feel this way and start leaving/fleeing the country, the greater incentive for the society to correct itself in order to minimize the losses.

fwn2• 8 years ago

This otherwise great article is interrupted by a native ad in favor of gun control in the US.

While that might be a worthwhile goal as well, I do not get the need for both sides to cram it into so many unrelated pieces.

wiredearp• 8 years ago

It could be argued that shooting your classmates is not that different from backstabbing your office colleguages in order to live out the american dream of coming out on top of everyone else; or at least that is what this guy does in https://eand.co/why-were-underestimating-american-collapse-b....

fwn2• 8 years ago

Well, fair enough. The goal should be society mentally healthy enough so people don't want to hurt each other.

I understand that people think about that as a technical problem (people hurt through weapons, therefore decrease availability - problem solved) however this is not solving the problem at all:

You wouldn't want a society of violent people who just never got the chance to hurt others either.

The technicality of decreasing the availability of weapons (which, as said, might as well be valid) feels so out of place in the article since the rest of it is actually about culture.

It appears to me that the author points at a cultural problm and then interrupts everything to feature this US gun thing.

ItsMe000001• 8 years ago

I only want to say something about the "gun" subject in the article, since she gives it a prominent place.

I'm from East Germany originally (used to live in the US for a decade). That country was the true successor of Prussia as far as militaristic traditions go. While we did have "gun control", so no weapons other than air guns at home for most people, shooting was very much part of culture. I was taught marching like a professional soldier as part of school, before job training and studying. Same goes for shooting (small caliber weapons), throwing hand grenades (replicas of hand grenades were used in throwing exercises during normal sports lessons), how to use chemical protection gear and a gas mask, and a lot more.

The real difference, and this is my point that I think is usually missed about US gun culture, was that never, ever did it occur to me as a gun-obsessed child that if I had more than two air guns at home, or even for those, that I should ever want to use weapons against my fellow citizens.

Weapons were always for only three purposes: sports, hunting (organized and government regulated and controlled, not "for fun") and military.

In all the discussions about US gun culture, to me this is the far larger factor than just having access to guns, that the thought that this could be used in "self defense" against your own people exists. I sure had a lot of "gun fantasies" as a child and would happily have owned a "real" gun, but never, ever would it have occurred to me that I could use this against people, except for in military conflict.

You can restrict access all you want, and I'm sure that will limit some problems, but to me it seems unless there is a much, much deeper change in attitude that will only be a band aid removing the worst symptoms of a problem that goes deeper and is much more broad. This probably cannot be changed though. It's an attitude I find in too many movies produced in the US (unless it's romance or comedy and has no guns), it's all about fighting/shooting people.

xor1• 8 years ago

the worst symptoms of a problem that goes deeper and is much more broad

I think that problem is a mental illness / personality disorder epidemic among Americans under 35 that is being completely ignored.

duckMuppet2• 8 years ago

For all her ranting, she seemingly still has a U.S. passport which gives her a great deal more freedom than if she had a passport from central America. Let's see if she renounces her citizenship anytime soon and put her money where her mouth is.

I don't find this article particularly offensive, just extremely naive.

For all it's problems, in the U.S. we still enjoy both freedom of speech and freedom from the tyranny of socialized govt, both have reared it's ugly head in pretty spectacular ways recently..

Namely, you can end up in jail if you teach your dog to salute at Heil Hitler, or if you decide you want to present the middle finger to your govt overlords on a traffic cam, or if you think you might like to send your child to a different hospital that offers hope, no matter how grim the ultimate outcome, or if you defend yourself in your home from a robber with a knife.. Just to name a few..

The first and second amendments of the U.S. are unlike very few In the world. Statistically most people are very unlikely to encounter such gun crimes like school shootings, but you'd never know that because we have a media and culture driven by ratings and agenda.

But there is a lot of truth that people have much less value for life. That's not just a U.S. problem.. I'm a U.S. citizen, so I can criticize the mayor of London openly without fear, but their plans(or talks) to remove any and all knives from stores and the hands of their citizens is a pretty good example.. But no knife, no problem, you can do it pretty effectively with a truck, I recall 80 or so were killed a few years ago, and at least 10 were killed a few days ago in Toronto. And anyone with any sizeable amount of intellect could probably devise a plan that is highly effective by stealing a semi.. Someone with actual intelligence could probably devise a scheme to drop small IED's via drones and could probably be pretty lethal and remain effectively safe from capture, let alone any of the other mainstream methods..

And on top of it all, even with all the gun bans, one of the worst gun massacres in recent history occurred not in the U.S., but good old Europe.. Many countries have effectively banned all weapons, But that just means that the law abiding citizens are the ones who become defenseless.. I've sarcastically argued numerous times that the Charlie Hebdo attacks were fake news, and the people were just made up, after all, such firearms are actually banned there, so such an event isn't actually possible to happen, those weapons are banned..

It gets even better when looking at countries like Mexico, S. America etc, where the police may actually be part of the mob, flip a coin as to whether you'll survive if you call for help (I suppose if your passport is blue or from the euro block they probably try to take care of you for tourism sake)..

In any case, I think a recent episode of econtalk with Jonah Goldberg http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/04/jonah_goldberg.html summed up a lot of truths about the place we are at in our society, especially in the U.S.. It's quite worth a listen.. Because ultimately, though the above is bad, we often forget that gives have historically persecuted people far worse, and though it's 2018 (as if somehow that means something), it's still happening ( IRS/FBI)etc..

Ultimately, These are problems govt cannot solve, and the answer the govt will give might not be an answer that's good, for average Joe at least.. But I do think, in the U.S., It's a road we are heading down..

markoman• 8 years ago

I always find it astounding when a gun advocate goes to great lengths to list means other than guns for committing mass murder. Why would any American, having been ministered in the ways of the gun via American gun culture/religion, select IEDs from drones, knives, or trucks to do the deed? Guns, especially rifles, are superbly optimized killing machines. Any suggestion otherwise is a pure and simple diversion from reality & truth.

You cite the European Charlie Hebdo attack (where 12 people died) as 'one of the worst gun massacres in recent history' yet reveal your blind spot of the much more recent (American) Las Vegas Mandalay Bay shooting on 10/01/2017 where 58 were killed and a staggering 500+ were injured -- while attending a concert on the Vegas strip! This attack, from a 32nd floor hotel suite, truly stunned America in ways that have yet to be fathomed. Its just that these gun attacks keep coming and stealing away our attention. Witness the Sutherland Springs, TX church shooting where 27 people were killed, and then Parkland which has gained even more attention. And yet, American gun culture and politics will not permit even a Congressional debate for outlawing bump stocks, which to a large part, contributed to the loss of life at the Las Vegas shooting. No -- all you get are thoughts, prayers, a monument and don't forget the hospital bill on your way out.

mpweiher3• 8 years ago

Hmm...

1. She has dual French/US citizenship, says so in her Bio. Not sure what "Central America" has to do with anything. A lot of US citizens renounce their citizenship because of the insane tax requirements. But of course the US also makes renouncing very hard, for example taxing you on unrealized profits. It's a mess.

2. You find the article "naive"? How much experience do you have living outside the US, if I may enquire, for example in Europe?

3. Freedom of speech is actually quite comparable, and in many ways better, as for example corporations are prevented from denying your freedom of speech. The limitations the US corp. I worked for recently tried to put on employees were laughably illegal in Germany. Yes, we are a bit down on Nazi symbols. Can you guess why?

4. I would like to see what happens to you in the US if you give the middle finger to a police officer. Can you assert your 1st amendment rights from the grave?

5. "The first and second amendments of the U.S. are unlike very few In the world." Actually the first is pretty common, with very slight alterations. The second is uniquely US-American and, surprise, the US is a uniquely violent and deadly place.

6. Statistically, you are about 10x more likely to get shot in the US than you are in a Western European country. And at least 4x more likely to get killed in a homicide. So no, the violence in the US is not made up by the media, it is a statistical fact.

7. Whereas the much publicized terror attacks in Europe are exactly what you claim for the US, a statistical blip. They are only noticeable because (a) those countries are so much less violent overall and (b) media coverage of anything that can be counted as "terror" is of the charts.

8. Not sure what you mean with "one of the worst gun massacres". The Charles Hebdo attack? Sorry, that doesn't even crack the US top 10, and is not even a day's worth of gun homicides in the US.

eesmith2• 8 years ago

You write "Let's see if she renounces her citizenship anytime soon and put her money where her mouth is."

There's a long tradition of people placing absurd requirements on Americans who criticize American culture.

During the Vietnam War, anti-war protesters who (correctly, with the retrospective understanding of history) criticized the US involvement in SE Asia, and were told "America, love it or leave it."

Now we have someone who did leave, and so the demand gets even more absurd. "American, love it or leave it and renounce citizenship."

Suppose she did spend the time and ~$3,000 to renounce US citizenship.

Would it really change your mind?

What I've seen in the forums which discuss renunciation is that there become new attacks, with the most common that it was done to cheat on paying taxes.

I say it's absurd because it's hard to move away from the country where one was born and grew up. She's almost certainly got more skin in the game than you do. Since you don't seem to have any skin in the game, and you thinking having skin is important, why should we listen to you?

Aaargh203183• 8 years ago

This is an interesting article from the point of view of someone living in Europe. She moves away from the US because she wants out of the rat race:

"I grew up believing that having money was an objective to strive for and that life was a ruthless competition. I worked hard in school and got a good job because that was what was expected of me. That was the path that was supposed to bring me happiness, except I followed that path, and I wasn’t happy."

Finally, she ends up living in Europe:

"I certainly could say more about the work-life balance provided by the 35-hour workweek, the five weeks of paid vacation I enjoy each year, the two years paid unemployment benefits I would receive should I lose my job, my access to free health care, paid maternity leave, affordable child care, free education from age 3 through to university or the state-provided retirement pension I will receive at age 65."

The funny thing is, that as someone who grew up in Europe, with all those things she raves about, I feel exactly like she did in the beginning of the story. I feel like being in the rat race just like she did. Those 5 weeks of paid vacation feel more like an insult than a benefit. You get to taste a little bit of freedom for a short while and then it's back to dayprison. Retirement at 65 is a pipe dream, the boomers spent all the retirement money already and retirement age is slowly rising (currently at 67), by the time I turn 67 in 30 years I'm sure it has been raised even further or more likely there won't be any kind of state pension anymore.

Not that I expect to ever get that old. 8 hour workdays are insane, it's an arbitrary number and yet the whole of society is based around it. It leaves people too exhausted to enjoy life and causes so much stress I'm actually surprised anyone makes it to pension age. I fully expect to die of a stress-related heart attack or similar way before I get to enjoy any kind of pension.

fwdpropaganda6• 8 years ago

The funny thing is, that as someone who grew up in Europe, with all those things she raves about, I feel exactly like she did in the beginning of the story.

We always want more and better, right? We might be different from the Americans in the details (albeit important ones), but we aren't that different in the big picture worldview.

candiodari• 8 years ago

Ever notice how retirement age is rising at roughly 0.5/years/year ? That means, of course, that by the time someone in their 30s retires it will have moved again.

So if politicians want to keep spending like they do now (assuming deficits do not matter and do not raise spending further due to interest), a 30 year old person will retire at age 104 at this rate.

Aaargh203183• 8 years ago

When they raised the retirement age in my country to 67 they also snuck in a provision linking it to the average life expectancy. So as life expectancy goes up, so does the retirement age.

As I expect a cure for ageing to be available within the next couple of decades, this basically means no more pensions.

marak830• 8 years ago

Those 5 weeks of paid vacation feel more like an insult than a benefit.

Now imagine not having them. I moved from Australia where (due to my contract) I had 6 weeks per year, now in Japan I have two. Feels a lot worse than having them.

8 hour workdays are insane

8 hour work days are a breeze, I've regularly done 12-14, and not unknown to have done a few 20hours (sleep at work, I'll be doing this next week a few times due to staff shortages).

I do agree with you about retirement though, kinda worrying that all that money I paid into my Australian superannuation is locked up and will probably not be there when I eventually retire.

belltown98121• 8 years ago

Im 27/female. My annual comp this year is north of $220k. I have about $12k left in student debt, which at this point I am making smaller payments towards because paying it off will drop my credit score and I really want to get a good rate on a mortgage soon.

On paper, things look great. I save about $2500 a month after my own bills and helping siblings (parents cannot work). I have a good deal of investments already built up and max out my 401k.

However, I really can't afford to buy more than a dumpster. Its going to be several years until I can purchase a home but at the current housing spikes, it's going to be out of reach even then. I could just move, but the job prospects aren't amazing in cheaper parts of the country.

My management just does not care about me. Its about their goals. I'm just a tool or a service to help them achieve those goals. Services get sunset. Services get deprecated.

Again, my compensation is amazing on paper considering my age, but I am over worked and under constant stress and anxiety. I don't take many vacations because the anxiety of my work is overpowering.

I have two weeks of vacation banked, but even if I took off, I can never deflate and distress. I don't know how at this point.

My work is pretty much all my life... oh and commuting.

I know there are people with alot less than me, far more student debt, etc. I am grateful for what I do have and cannot begin to imagine what it's like for the folks living paycheck to paycheck, although I am terrified that my career stands at the whims of egotistical men, and I could easily end up in that paycheck to paycheck situation.

I occasionally see headlines on news sites while reading on my phone during commutes... "x analyst predicts y company to hit trillion dollar by z date."

Nobody stops to ask who is reaping the majority of that and at what cost?

grosjona• 8 years ago

I wonder if that photo at the top was taken in Guadeloupe? The vibrant green color of the plants and trees seems to indicate this.

JeanMarcS• 8 years ago

Probably. I asked myself the same question, as this is where I live at the moment.

So if not Guadeloupe, it surely is somewhere in the Caribbean

knolan• 8 years ago

As a European looking out the US is often befuddling. The insanity of healthcare, attitude to firearms, extreme media bias and seemingly unquestioning nationalism are worrisome to say the least.

I’ve been there several times for conferences and I’ve always been happy to leave. The constant feeling of being bleed for cash at every opportunity coupled with the fake over sincerity is frustrating.

As an Irishman there is a strong connection between our countries and many colleagues have made the move and seem happy. I can’t imagine wanting to live there, at least in the world described in the article and around big city conference centers.

Also the chocolate is atrocious.

throwaway847425• 8 years ago

Choice is still a thing. If you want all those government benefits in exchange for making 1/3rd of what one makes in the US, go right ahead. Their immigration laws are quite a bit more restrictive than ours, so it won’t be easy, but it can be done. There are literally hundreds of millions of people who would like to move here. Tens of millions in South America alone, in spite of long vacations, “free” healthcare, and “pensions”.

fwdpropaganda6• 8 years ago

If you want all those government benefits in exchange for making 1/3rd of what one makes in the US, go right ahead.

Over here we don't consider that healthcare and education are a "government benefit". We consider them rights.

But you sound slightly offended. Like now you're trying to prove that some people like the USA. You don't have to prove anything dude.

Hnrobert42• 8 years ago

I read something about the term “right” that I have yet to fully reconcile. For some rights, nothing is required of other people. E.g., freedom of speech, voting rights, even right to bear arms. Other rights require taking from others. Universal health, basic income, etc. requires taking money from some/all to give to others.

I dont know that the second is necessarily bad, but it is an interesting distinction. However, it may be a false distinction. Child care leave may not require taking from the employer so much as establish that if the employer wants an employee’s work, a fair trade includes leave.

Like I said, I haven’t fully thought this one through.

dang3• 8 years ago

You have been one of the worst offenders in this thread full of horrible violations of the HN guidelines. You've also been uncivil on HN many times before. This is really bad.

I'm not going to ban you, because your recent history hasn't been as bad as this, but if you do this sort of flamewar on HN again, we will ban you. Please do not pour any trace of nationalistic poison, regardless of how badly other users are behaving. If you do, you're as bad as they are. This of course goes for every user, not just you.

Please (re-)read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and do a much better job of using this site as intended from now on.

freedom2097• 8 years ago

This is actually wrong! You tell yourself this lie to keep going I guess! As a software engineer in the south of France mi salary is 70% of what I would get in the San Francisco area but my purchase power is way higher! Goods and services cost way less here than in the US!

throwaway847425• 8 years ago

You can get $350-400k/yr total in San Francisco as a mid-career IC SWE. I have surveyed what SWEs make in Europe and it brought a tear to my eye. I guess that’s why most of the good ones are already here.

US health insurance costs about $13k a year for a family of 3, for a decent plan, and that’s if you pay for all of it yourself (ie you’re unemployed but wealthy, so don’t qualify for special rates). In-state tuition is also not too bad.

megaman22• 8 years ago

San Francisco is just about the worst possible place to be. Almost anywhere else, cost of living will be far cheaper, and housing a fraction of Bay Area rates.

dang3• 8 years ago

You started a wretched political/national flamewar in this thread and then heaped fuel on it to keep it going. We ban accounts that do this, so please don't do it again.

You really violated the site rules quite egregiously here. Other commenters did too.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

holydude• 8 years ago

I have just sold my 1m$ property to move from Europe to the US. Seriously Europe is a fucked up place and I aint coming back.

Alkatori• 8 years ago

Confused, her information is wrong. I was talking with a French gun owner who owned an AK and AR-15 both chambered in .222 Remington. Just because she doesn't know any gun owners who have them doesn't mean "military style weapons" are banned there.

dang3• 8 years ago

All: the flamewars that raged in this thread are bannable offenses on HN. It's no excuse that the article was bait; the thing to do was to flag it and move on, as others fortunately did.

We're not going to let HN go down in the flames and fumes of nationalistic battles. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't do that. Do this instead: when someone provokes you with an egregious comment, flag it (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html) and/or email us at hn@ycombinator.com to be sure to get moderator attention. Don't reply, and especially don't reply aggressively.

In other words, call the fire department, don't pour fuel, and don't start fires of your own. Sounds easy, but it's not, because it requires tolerating the burn of annoyance inside oneself instead of taking it out on the commons. That's actually what tolerance means. It's a physical process, just like any structure can tolerate a certain load before snapping. Containing this energy does not feel good, but it's the capacity we all need to build if if we want this community to survive as a place for curiosity.

Why I Left the U.S. 20 Years Ago and Why I Won't Be Coming Back

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