Barefoot shoes try to outrace the black market

http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/13/smallbusiness/vibram_fivefingers/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin

by edw519 • 16 years ago

81 55 16 years ago

money.cnn.com

blasdel3• 16 years ago

I noticed them all over the chinese trade sides about six months ago. I had this bookmarked from then: http://www.tradetang.com/search/index.jsp?keyword=VIBRAM&... — note that 'VIBRAM' is a banned keyword, but the search is still returning plenty of results fromt he category.

csmeder2• 16 years ago

Hmm, I've never actually seen a "chinese trade site". I am guessing this is what many people use to make money on ebay or shopify account. Do you have more info about chinese trade sites? A blog you could recommend? Or any info at all would be interesting.

blasdel3• 16 years ago

Yep, that's one of the main purposes of the site I linked to.

Alibaba is by far the biggest player, their ecommerce empire is easily the third biggest after Amazon and eBay. Their main site is basically for people outside China to hook up with factory agents to buy stuff wholesale. They also have a japan-specific version, and a heavily used internal chinese B2B version. Their http://taobao.com is super dominant within China, occupying a space between Amazon and eBay stores but with even more marketshare, and with sellers ranging from a kid in a dorm room to multinational corporations. They also own Yahoo China, the chinese paypal-equivalent, the biggest chinese ad network, and a salesforce.com-style CRM.

Their equivalent site to TradeTang would be their recently launched http://aliexpress.com that has a full US localization and integrated cart/payment/shipping/etc. You'll find some weird shit on there, like this seller: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/801597/all-wholesale-product... — page through his catalog to find dried seahorses, reciprocating drilldoes, folding bikes, giant inflatable water walking balls, ghillie suits, dried human placentas, cow bezoars, portable titanium stripper poles…

By far the biggest hassle with using Alibaba is just communicating with the seller, they hate answering email and if you ask multiple questions they'll cherry-pick the most superficial one to respond to. The only way to get anything done is to be up in the middle of the night and get them on MSN messenger.

evo_9• 16 years ago

So do they make matching socks? I know this is about 'barefoot' but some of us know our bodies, and in my case if I actually worked out with these - which would be cool - I'd pretty much destroy them in a few days from sweating. Without socks to absorb the moister I'd be concerned about them getting pretty stinky after heavy use.

Now for a specialty shoe, rock-climbing/boulder comes to mind, yeah these would be incredible. In fact, I think I'll probably buy a pair for that the more I think about it. I don't tend to sweat as much climbing.

ezl• 16 years ago

They do sell toe socks, and I've generally seen toe socks available from other vendors long before Vibram FiveFingers have existed.

You don't really need the socks though, and I've only worn them barefoot. The material is moisture wicking and your feet might get a little stinky but you can just throw the shoes in the wash fairly easily.

hurfadurf• 16 years ago

Yes, they make matching socks.

I've climbed in them before, and they're a bit different to climb in than specialized climbing shoes (I wear 5.10 spires normally). The rubber on the FiveFingers model I tried wasn't as tough as the 5.10 Stealth (which is likely different depending on the Fivefingers model), and climbing shoes also have much better ankle support. In particular, my Spires have a band of thick, tough rubber that covers the Achilles tendon, which is brilliant for heel-hooks. The Fivefingers, lacking that support, made moves like that more difficult.

Hates_• 16 years ago

I just put mine in the washing machine every weekend. Kept them semi-fresh for the past three years.

vitobcn• 16 years ago

That's what I do too and it works. However, my biggest complain is the sole durability. I had mine for a few months (nowhere near 3 years) and the sole wore out to the point where there was a hole on each shoe on the balls of the feet area and I had to replace them.

I hope this issue gets solved with the new 2010 running models (Bikila, Speed) which have 2 additional millimeters of sole.

chengas123• 16 years ago

I just rinse them out in the sink after a run. And I sweat a lot.

edj• 16 years ago

I've tried bouldering in a borrowed pair. Edging gets painful fast. Far too much stress on my toes. Having separated toes and a relatively pliable sole produces an awful lot of foot strain.

Real climbing shoes are tighter and more rigid. They do just the opposite of what these barefoot shoes do; they bunch your toes together, forming them into a kind of single supertoe. It's probably about as bad for you as wearing high-heels, but it's very effective.

Also, the soles on barefoot shoes are not sticky enough for climbing, so smearing doesn't work too well.

avar2• 16 years ago

I've done rock climbing in both the five fingers and regular rock climbing shoes. Rock climbing shoes are definitely better 99% of the time, their rigidity helps you to maintain secure footholds.

There's the occasional exception though, I was once able to gain a foothold in the five fingers by sticking my big toe in a hole that fit it exactly.

avar2• 16 years ago

Vibram partners with Injinji for toesocks: http://www.injinji.com/tetratsok/outdoor.htm

I always wear socks with my vibrams, they provide slightly more insulation, and it's just generally more pleasant not to wear the rubber shoes directly.

whyenot3• 16 years ago

They are machine washable. I don't wear socks with mine (KSOs) and wash them once a week -- works fine for me. Other people have found that soaking in the sink with 2-3 Efferdent (denture cleaning) tablets also works very well to control odor.

yanowitz3• 16 years ago

Best way I've found to defunkify my Vibrams is to soak them in Oxyclean (yes, "as seen on TV" Oxyclean) overnight and then wash them in the washing machine and air drying.

This is with KSOs. With the Sprints, I've never had an odor problem, but they can air out more easily.

I suspect that if you had some kind of warm-air (~35C) device (e.g., a heat gun) to gently blow air through them post workout, one could keep the odor on KSOs down.

Don't tumble dry them though -- the glue melts.

philwelch• 16 years ago

I think if the glue melts from a simple tumble dry I'm sure as hell not going to use a heat gun on them.

yanowitz3• 16 years ago

Why? A dryer gets far hotter than 35C. I just mean enough warm air moving through the shoe to dry it quickly. A decent heat gun should give you that control.

Groxx• 16 years ago

I bring them into the shower, or soak them in sports detergent for an hour or so (squish them a few times). Twice, if needed. Rinse, dry over air purifier / fan overnight, and they're practically new-smelling, even though I've got pretty funky feet.

jackfoxy2• 16 years ago

I always wear injinji toe-socks with my KSOs, and never have a funk problem.

camworld• 16 years ago

There was a 1991 episode of "Married With Children" where Al Bundy creates "God's Shoes" which look exactly like these shoes. There is nothing novel or new about this idea.

PidGin128• 16 years ago

I haven't voted up or down here, but cam is correct. Maybe the tone was a bit rough?

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=129234... (found via images.google.com .)

This site also has an amusing comparison of crocs & vibrams.

cgs1019• 16 years ago

Seems like there is a great business opportunity in here somewhere. Something like SSL certs but for identifying brands being sold online. I understand the basics of encryption and digital signatures but not enough to see immediately how this could be done reliably. Maybe the retailer would register with the manufacturer and receive a temporary or at least regularly updated private key to use in dynamically requesting a "badge" of legitimacy to fetch and display on the page. This might require browser support to be truly effective, as with https changing the appearance of the address bar. Someone should jump on this. I can see it being an indispensable web feature as more brands suffer counterfeiting online. Of course, it's already a problem offline in many ways but at least online one could be reasonably proactive in mitigating it. $2500 a pop in legal fees to shut down an illegitimate counterfeiting competitor is exorbitant and the problem could be solved more cheaply and efficiently.

EDIT: spelling (typed this on my phone)

pg• 16 years ago

These are one of the more common things we get spam links for on HN.

seattlejet• 16 years ago

What are some of the other things? So we know when we see them...

K3G• 16 years ago

Simply for curiosity sake, it would be interesting to see some basic metrics on spam submission. A simple weighted list sorted by topic would be quite interesting to see.

whyenot3• 16 years ago

I think ads like this are a great way for Vibram to raise awareness of the problem with a sense of humor:

image: http://birthdayshoes.com/media/blogs/bdayshoes/2010_Photos/m...

description: http://birthdayshoes.com/merrell-barefoot-shoes-partner-with...

I love my VFFs. Vibram deserves to reap the financial rewards for creating a whole new product category, and doing such a great job with it.

bmj2• 16 years ago

I have a friend who works for a running publication (and is a long distance runner), and she noted that Vibram got kinda lucky with this design. Born to Run was published after they introduced their shoes. While Vibram's marketing department certainly did their part, without the book (and associated media), one wonders if they would be so popular.

As an aside, both my friend and her husband (who sometimes runs barefoot) said they didn't like the shoes. Since the glove-like fit actually forces the toes a bit further apart, they prefer lightweight "natural" trainers like these: http://tinyurl.com/yagubt5

nchlswu2• 16 years ago

I think saying "Vibram got kinda lucky with their design" is taking away from what Vibram achieved with this product. It's no different from any new venture.

I've been interested in barefoot running ever since products like Vivo and Nike Free began making headways into the market. The article posted makes it seem like these are competitors introduced after Vibram Five Fingers, but they were all introduced at roughly the same time.

The barefoot products mentioned were all introduced at a time period where barefoot running was beginning to gain serious traction. It was excellent timing for all companies pushing barefoot products. Personally, I think alot of Vibram's press has to due with their unorthodox design. Nike's barefoot alternative is a much more traditional shoe design (that I think is more known for its comfort).

Vibram is popular due to a quality product with some timing that wasn't just coincidence (they weren't the only company who saw the trend). I think their "honest" and unorthodox design gave was the real differentiator that made them that much more popular than the competition

atomical2• 16 years ago

I didn't realize that there were a lot of runners here hacking up the hills. I have Newtons at home but I didn't like them. They aren't made for the trails I run either. I might try Zoots soon.

kajecounterhack• 16 years ago

I can't seem to find any real reviews of Newtons...there are so many fanboy reviews that I wasn't sure if it was worth the money so I never tried them. Hrm.

atomical2• 16 years ago

This is one man's opinion, but I think the way the lugs are placed at the front of the shoe compact the impact with the ground. I had been running 8-9 miles on average a day. I integrated Newton's into my routine for 1 mile every day and at the end of the week I was having pain and had to take some time off.

davidwparker• 16 years ago

I've had Newtons for a month now and they are definitely different. They've definitely worked out my calves and other lower leg muscles a lot more than my Brooks. If you're not already a mid-to-fore foot runner, than they'll definitely be painful.

I do a lot of trail running, and I can't say they weren't made for trails. In fact, I prefer them for trail running.

gcheong• 16 years ago

I think it says something about the power of culture when fully shod feet, high-heeled feet, flip-flopped feet, etc., are all acceptable but a gloved foot is somehow "weird looking".

korch• 16 years ago

The first time I saw these unusual barefoot shoes was when Sergey Brin was wearing them on stage at some tech conference. I don't even rememeber what he was saying—all I could do was stare at those weird, awesome shoes. Then I thought "oh I guess that's what eccentric billionaires do, they have strange custom shoes made for themselves" without knowing it was a real product.

For the longest time I've worn the smallest, lightest Pumas I can find, because of the closer to barefoot feel, so I may just pick up a pair of these to try.

jackfoxy2• 16 years ago

Whenever someone makes fun of my VFFs I say, "Let's do a little investigation. Put your foot up next to mine. Now, whose shoe is formed more like a human foot?"

nooneelse• 16 years ago

Whose car looks more like a strong pair of legs?

I like the shoes too, but sometimes the rhetoric used to promote them strikes me as silly.

Glide• 16 years ago

Just hope they don't counter with, "Now whose foot looks more like a shoe?"

And I've only gotten compliments on my VFFs. Then again I chose the blue camo color.

sliverstorm2• 16 years ago

I want to get a pair, but I don't think they have a model appropriate for motorcycling, thus limiting my ability to use them.

sliverstorm2• 16 years ago

Does HN have a suggestion of how to make them work for me, when I lead a lifestyle that requires the wearing of boots everywhere? I am genuinely interested in them.

fuzzythinker• 16 years ago

I wanted to try them but was surprised that REI in Mountain View & San Jose, CA did not carry more than 1 (large) size in just 1 model. I know REI has very good return policy and encourages me to just order online & return if don't like. But still, I feel like wanting to try them on and see if I like them or not and which model is best.

mambodog• 16 years ago

This is what the ACTA should have been focused on, instead of trying to stop people downloading music. It is the Anti Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, after all.

barrkel2• 16 years ago

It's counterfeiting if the consumer is getting fooled. It's something else if the consumer is aware they're not getting the real deal.

htsh• 16 years ago

I'm curious if anyone knows, how far does Vibram's IP protection go?

It sounds like here these were counterfeit Vibrams (holding themselves out as real) but can someone else make gloved shoes (with individual toes) or do these guys have a lockdown on that entire concept?

cshesse• 16 years ago

My understanding of clothing IP is that they can't control the creation of toe shoes, but they can control the use of their logo and company name.

scotty79• 16 years ago

You can learn about IP protection in different countries here: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/johanna_blakley_lessons_fr...

barrkel2• 16 years ago

And this year, a study by Harvard evolutionary biologists published in the journal Nature concluded that barefoot runners land on the balls of their feet, rather than on their heels, ultimately creating less joint stress and reducing injuries.

I don't know how other people do it, but I find it hard not to land on the balls of my feet when running.

hakl• 16 years ago

I think the secret is long strides with slow cadence.

nchlswu2• 16 years ago

Running barefoot is alot different than running with shoes on.

The reason why companies have to make "Barefoot" running shoes is because shoes have been traditionally manufactured with thicker heel and thinner forefoot. This promotes a heel footstrike rather than with the balls of your foot. Shoes like the Nike Free or the Vibram Five Fingers were designed to promote natural foot movements.

If you try running barefoot, I think you'll notice that when you land with your heel, you're actually not putting much weight on your heel at all - it's more of a gentle support to pivot and most of your weight is only put on your forefoot.

When I run in running shoes, my cadence/form does change slightly. I am used to running by landing on my forefoot, but I personally find it more difficult with running shoes on. I made a conscious effort to land with a bit more weight on my forefoot.

I don't think there's any particular secret to running like this; I do martial arts and am barefoot all the time, so running with such a stride seems pretty natural to me -- it ultimately just works better for barefeet, whereas shoes promote an "unhealthy" foot movement.

bh23ha• 16 years ago

Personal anecdote:

I started running with an ancient pair of shoes. Flat, thin sole, absolutely no cushioning in it. After quite some time, I bought new running shoes, thick sole, lots of cushioning.

On my first run with the brand new shoes, I was much faster. MUCH faster. I got home amazed and thought I should have switched a long time ago, what was I thinking running in those ancient beat up shoes!

And I thought these new shoes must have a lot of bounce in them. So I jumped up a bit - nothing, no bounce. So I took them off, and tried to bounce them again. Still no bounce. They are cushioned, they dampen shock, absorb it, they are the opposite of bouncy.

Well then I should have been slower, why did I run faster with dampening? I kept thinking about that, and then the next day my knees were in pain. And that's when I seriously started researching running and shoes.

And I've pretty well convinced myself barefoot is the way to go. But to avoid stepping on you name it, look for shoes like the Vibrams, avoid heavy cushioning.

Barefoot shoes try to outrace the black market

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