How Cuts in Basic Subway Upkeep Can Make NYC Commutes Miserable

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/nyregion/system-failure-new-york-subway-maintenance-misery.html?mabReward=CTM3&recid=0y1C7Vbd7V6qb02UQ5zYHiw4x64&recp=3&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&region=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine

by jseliger • 9 years ago

139 199 9 years ago

nytimes.com

notyourday9• 9 years ago

Dude. Not moving a "sick passenger" off the train is the biggest issue of NYC subway commute.

untog2• 9 years ago

It really isn't. It is an issue, sure, but decrepit signals have far more of an effect every single day.

notyourday9• 9 years ago

No, this is the issue. A sick passenger on union sq on N Q R in a rush hour means for twenty minutes trains are stopped. A sick passenger on the L, means trains are stopped in both directions. It takes hours for the train service to get back to normal. This happens nearly daily. If we still had Gothamist, we would have still had daily articles about what caused the delay.

gnopgnip2• 9 years ago

The problem with that is that it means a delay. There is no easy answer for when to delay the train for everyone, or when to keep moving until it is handled with a smaller delay.

Symbiote3• 9 years ago

London Underground sometimes has posters up, "If you feel unwell, seek a member of staff on the platform" and "when ill on a train, if possible, wait until the train is in a station, where help is more easily available".

Also, most of the emergency communications buttons now connect you to speak with the driver. They presumably have a procedure, depending on the problem, but for someone sick they will call ahead "passenger in front of carriage 3".

frandroid• 9 years ago

Andy Byford has his work cut out for him.

free652• 9 years ago

For MTA: labor expenses are higher than revenue, there is no easy way out.

Fej• 9 years ago

How are they paying for everything?

mc32• 9 years ago

Farebox rev is ~40% the rest of funding comes from a variety of taxes (RE, payroll, etc) and a few state and local subsidies.

TuringNYC• 9 years ago

Sounds like they take the prevailing wage and multiply it by two! https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-... "...average total compensation for subway managers has grown to nearly $300,000 a year."

djsumdog3• 9 years ago

It's important to note that no train system in the world is covered by fairs. They are always subsidized by the state. In most cities, fairs make up 20% ~ 30% of costs (tolls are about the same for toll roads).

Cities with expensive transit typically have mandates that x% of costs must be paid by fairs. In Wellington, NZ and Chicago, US, this is 50%, leading to some pretty high fares or low service.

Just having transit makes revenue though, in taxes from the increased commerce. Access to transport is also the single largest factor in escaping poverty. It's difficult to measure those numbers in revenue though.

But transport always must be subsidized by the State, going back to the roads of Rome.

gnopgnip2• 9 years ago

They are subsidized by the local government mostly and get some from fares. You have to consider the alternative when talking about the fare ratio though. It would either mean building more roads, or another form of public transit. So even if fares were free and the subway cost a billion a year, if it would cost more than a billion a year for roads it saves money

adrianN6• 9 years ago

The technology on the NYC subway is so old that they have to pay through the nose for replacement parts. I also assume that you have a hard time finding people willing to work at a place where they learn few transferable skills, because nobody else uses century old stuff. Especially if the pay is so-so and you don't guarantee a job for life.

Yet upgrading the system to modern signals and interlockings is even more expensive, especially since maintenance is extremely hard when the system has to run 24/7.

exabrial3• 9 years ago

Signals are expensive? That kind of blows my mind. A chaveut dj LED light that responds to dmx commands can be had for a few bucks

gozur882• 9 years ago

It must be one of those things that's harder than it looks - China had a train crash because they decided to roll their own signals.

adrianN6• 9 years ago

Signals are expensive because of their safety guarantees (and because of lack of competition). That LED light you can buy for a few bucks doesn't guarantee eight nines of uptime if you keep to the maintenance schedule. You also can sue the manufacturer if a train runs a red because the LED broke. Signals and other trackside equipment make up a large part of the costs of building rail.

tallanvor• 9 years ago

You are thinking of signals as just the lights telling the driver what to do, but the signals used in the subway are much more complex and include the hardware to know, for example, whether another train is on an upcoming stretch of track, or how a switch is set up ahead, which affects what tracks the train is routed onto. These aren't just electronic systems, they include mechanical hardware to detect the necessary information. The design of some of the signals still in use basically hasn't changed in 100 years!

gambiting2• 9 years ago

Have you ever looked at industrial-grade hardware? You know, stuff that is actually certified to work for years on end in the worst conditions imaginable? If someone asked you, how much do you think a 12V power supply costs, would you say $5-10, because that's how much they go for on ebay? Try a National Instruments 12V supply - it's about ~$1200 for a power supply slightly larger than your phone charger. Why? Because it's certified to work in -80C and +120C without failure, in environments where explosive gases are present and in very high humidity environments. You can't use consumer hardware in industrial/commercial environments, and for a good reason.

betterunix26• 9 years ago

"I also assume that you have a hard time finding people willing to work at a place where they learn few transferable skills"

You assume wrong; the MTA has no difficulty finding people to work on the old equipment (I have a close relative who actually works on this equipment, there has never been trouble finding willing workers). Also note that the old technology is mostly restricted to interlocking machines and telephones; everything else (train sets, radios, MOW equipment, etc.) is much more recent.

djsumdog3• 9 years ago

Other major cities around the world are moving to automated light rail. Singapore and Kula Lumpar both have fully automated trains, London has several of their lines automated with plans on slowly replacing rolling stock to eventually go driver-less on more of its above ground lines.

American cities are so far behind. D.C. is probably one of the best metros, but NYC and Chicago, while having quite extensive systems for very large cities, have no budget to expand or move them into the future.

For cities that large, these systems have to be maintained. They cannot afford to cut train lines, unless they want to end up with grueling traffic like you have in LA.

hkmurakami• 9 years ago

iirc Yurikamome in the gulf area of Tokyo is automated monorail. It's really nice -- well run, clean, peaceful.

delackner• 9 years ago

While automation sounds elegant, it has nothing to do with the problems or solutions here. The core problem with the NYC subway system is a management culture that does not value long term problem solving, instead preferring quick fixes and short term band aids.

Many modern subway systems have similarly huge networks with far higher traffic than NYC but manage to maintain low failure rates and CLEAN tracks simply because they value and prioritize maintenance and quality of service. Some are private, some are public.

It truly baffles me why NYC and actually the SF BART both fail so utterly to even attempt to provide quality service.

concerned_user4• 9 years ago

I live in Europe and to me it seems that its a general American mentality of everybody having a car, dislike of mass transit in any form (except planes) and as a result mass transit is meh and makes people even more miserable.

wdn• 9 years ago

The biggest problem here is MTA is government run. Return the subway to the private sector. Get rid of the union.

The union took the city hostage many times. Enough is enough.

andreasklinger• 9 years ago

Non-NYC-er here:

The core problem with the NYC subway system is a management culture that does not value long term problem solving, instead preferring quick fixes and short term band aids

Do they have the time and budget horizon to do long-term planning ?

To me it seems like SF and NY subways are underfunded

flanbiscuit• 9 years ago

American cities are so far behind. D.C. is probably one of the best metros, but NYC and Chicago, while having quite extensive systems for very large cities, have no budget to expand or move them into the future.

Related to this. We're finally starting to get rid of the stupid metrocards and switching to a tap/scan system. I saw one at 34th on the A/C/E line (34th & 8th West side entrance), just one turnstile had it so guessing they are just testing it there. Baby steps.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/nyregion/metrocard-subway...

adrianN6• 9 years ago

You realize that the article admonishes exactly this kind of modernization? Switching to a different ticket system does nothing for poorly maintained infrastructure, except sucking away much needed budget.

ancientworldnow2• 9 years ago

The L mine has CBTC and the 7 will as well. The MTA has a plan to deploy this to all their lines but they have almost 900 miles of track with more than 6000 cars and it's an expensive and slow process - especially when the lines run 24/7 unlike everywhere else.

cwal37• 9 years ago

D.C.'s metro is plagued with problems: didn't stay on top of upkeep, no dedicated funding, semi-unworkable governance, service cuts in the last couple years. We just exited a year long "Safe Track" maintenance program earlier in 2017, but they weren't able to get nearly enough done and service on many lines in the evening will still often be 20-25 minute headways with single tracking for additional maintenance. During rush hour, it will fairly often be an 8+ minute wait for a train in some core stations. . . it's crazy. Having grown up in and around Chicago, I would take the L+Metra over the Metro any day. Every time I go home to visit friends and family I'm reminded of how disappointing transit is in the nation's capital.

If you're out in the evenings or need to work early in the morning on the weekends you're also out of luck. Train service ends early Sunday-Thursday, and starts late Saturday-Sunday. Going to a concert is an eternal crapshoot, the last train on our line during the week can be as early as 10PM. This all disproportionately affects service workers and people without consistent access to personal transit as well, which bothers me on a more fundamental level than the personal inconvenience in my life; I perceive it as a failure of the urban social contract.

Also, LA is basically the only one of the largest American cities that is actually expanding their system in a meaningful and relatively quick way. Alexandria (where I live) has been trying to get an infill station in Potomac Yards added for something like 20+ years.

AndyMcConachie2• 9 years ago

As someone who spends a lot of time in DC I'm not sure they have the best metro in the US. I personally like the NYC metro better for getting around the city. DC's metro is largely designed to get people into and out of the city during rush hour. Most people in the DC area don't use it for anything else and as a consequence it suffers from high ridership during rush hour and very little ridership at other times. Unlike NYC, there are few places you can live in DC without also owning a car.

sageabilly• 9 years ago

The DC metro is absolutely NOT one of the best, for many reasons already explained by commenters. Many, many years of inadequate maintenance have caught up, to the point that this is a site that exists: https://ismetroonfire.com/

I live a half mile from a metro stop (out in the suburbs) and I STILL would rather drive into DC whenever I need to go into the city. It's faster, more reliable, and more convenient even with the hassle of driving in DC and finding/paying for parking.

dajohnson89• 9 years ago

D.C. is probably one of the best metros,

Oh dear -- that's a scary thought. Here in DC it's unanimously understood that the metro is a train wreck, literally and figuratively.

cafard• 9 years ago

The DC metro, as other commenters said, has its own problems of delayed maintenance. A larger problem is its limited coverage. The time to build subways was when New York did, and it was less expensive. But then Washington had many fewer people and its suburbs were not particularly extensive.

Endy• 9 years ago

Now they're also talking about stopping the L train for a year or more. And my major issue is, these people who have the time to go out and protest - and the city literally is not allowed to say, "You want this to get fixed? Either convince the rich folks to actually pay their taxes, or be willing to volunteer and do the work we need done down there."

ancientworldnow2• 9 years ago

The L shutdown has nothing to do with funds - it's mostly covered by federal Sandy money. The issue is the tunnel needs to be essentially gutted and replaced after being submerged in salt water for days post Sandy. There's no reroutes available so the only option is a shutdown. It can either be done all at once in less than 18 months (and MTA actually has a good track record coming in under time for repair work) or done one direction at a time over three years with a fraction of the current brooklyn-manhattan service level.

A full shutdown is absolutely the best option as much as it sucks for people dependent on the line (like me and my neighbors).

jopsen2• 9 years ago

and the city literally is not allowed to say, "You want this to get fixed? Either convince the rich folks to actually pay their taxes, or be willing to volunteer..."

That sounds like an excellent campaign poster.

The city is a public institution it shouldn't have opinions. But the politicians who govern it are very much encouraged to do so.

I suggest you try to run on a political platform of taxes and better services. Then you'll see of Americans want that.

notyourday9• 9 years ago

No need. The current tax bill exposed the positions of American limo liberals quite well - no one wants their "but i already pay taxes in New York so of course I deduct them from my federal tax liability" to go away.

1ba9115454• 9 years ago

I always wondered what would happen if you just remove the trains and the track and just let people cycle through the tunnels.

Joe-Z• 9 years ago

That sounds awesome. Maybe paint some landscapes on the walls and have nice lighting in there too. Underground bike lanes for the win!

ascagnel_2• 9 years ago

That's impossible -- the subway is used by people who can't bike for a wide variety of reasons.

Shivetya• 9 years ago

Do not that this is a problem nationwide with rail transit. Both heavy and light rail variants suffer the same issue, deferred upkeep. Throw in the elevated expense in deploying such solutions and the money just vanishes. While NYC has issues specific to it many cities slight their bus travelers to support rail lines to the point of changing bus routes to be less advantageous. LA lost nearly four bus riders for every new rail rider because they cut routes to pay for the train.

when it comes to deferred maintenance, if you were to look into the 2015 DOT reports there is nearly a hundred billion dollar backlog on rail maintenance. This is on top of the tens of billions spent building it and building new rail.

the estimates to bring just DC's Metro system back up to maintenance date is over twenty billion.

Just remember in the US most transit rail lines are for the purpose of politicians to cut ribbons.

heisenbit• 9 years ago

But roads are faring so much better? Or water infrastructure (Flint)? Or electricity infrastructure (PR)?

Our western society seems to find ways of fund investments but when it comes to maintenance there is a void. Why the US is particularly bad at this and what needs to change across the board is the question. The current course is not sustainable.

loup-vaillant4• 9 years ago

One thing that shocked me when going to the US, that still shocks me now, are those adds: "Injured? Cellino & Barnes".

Apparently, when you're injured in the US, the first thing to do is not go to the hospital, but call your lawyer. I'm not sure what to think of it, but it does make me feel uneasy.

sonthonax• 9 years ago

America's courts unlike the UK routinely award punitive damages. Suing someone for causing you injury in the UK may only net you the cost of your medical bills (which might be negligible) and the cost of missed work.

loup-vaillant4• 9 years ago

Given the US health care system, I understand why someone might need punitive damages.

pcr0• 9 years ago

Why does such a troubled metro still run 24/7? Most of the best-performing metros in the world (HK, SG, Tokyo) close at midnight.

futurix2• 9 years ago

Because the city itself is 24/7?

lagadu• 9 years ago

Yeah but at night there's significantly less traffic, so it's ok to stop the trains and rely solely on the bus network because it has enough capacity to handle night traffic.

Where I live is an example of that: during weekdays the light rail closes IIRC between midnight and 6, they only keep it running on weekends because of all the people going out at night (the metro always runs but that's fully automated). Just because the bus system isn't enough to handle a city's peak load, it's usually fine for handling the load on periods where the load is the smallest.

betterunix26• 9 years ago

There are a lot of people who ride at night -- not just party goers, but also people with late night jobs. The MTA does change the service pattern at night and there are often closures/reroutes for maintenance.

Also note that the MTA's troubles have nothing to do with running the system 24/7. The subway has run 24/7 for a century, and for most of that century maintenance was not a problem. What happened recently was that the state started cutting the MTA's subsidy, so maintenance started to slip and the system fell apart -- something which happened in the 1980s, but people have no ability to learn from past mistakes.

futurix2• 9 years ago

Ring-fenced yearly upkeep budget + years of sustained funding for improvements = great subway system.

London Underground in the 1980s was like NYC Subway now - but after sustained 15-20 years of funding it improved immensely (while passenger levels more than doubled, if not tripled).

Of course this could not last - with the current Conservative government Underground is getting less and less money, so starting to defer upgrades... Politicians are incapable of learning.

xvf22• 9 years ago

The social infrastructure is a bank account paid into by previous governments. They are pilfering it because it's easy and the fallout will probably land on someone else.

rayiner11• 9 years ago

That doesn’t help. The MTA’s problem is decidedly not money. The MTA’s spending on subway is about double per passenger as Transport for London spends on the underground.[1] Having a ring fenced budget wouldn’t do any good as it gets eaten away by inefficiency and waste.

What the MTA needs to do is:

1) Disband the union

2) Cut service overnight to increase maintenance times

3) Double fares (Tube fares are 15-100% higher depending on distance; using exchange rates from a few years ago, minimum Tube fare was like $5 versus $2.75 for the NY subway)

[1] http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-mayors-budget-2017-18.pdf (page 10) versus http://web.mta.info/mta/budget/pdf/MTA%202017%20Adopted%20Bu.... (page II-A). Just look at the Underground versus the subway + the Staten Island Railroad.

1jojojo• 9 years ago

If MTA's problem is decidedly not money, then why does the MTA need to double its fares?

robbyt• 9 years ago

There's also quite a bit of corruption in the MTA... I've heard multiple first-hand accounts of construction kick-backs, intentional sabotage, and other awful things going on internally at the MTA. The problem isn't money, it's awful leadership and politics.

apostacy4• 9 years ago

2) Cut service overnight to increase maintenance times

Absolutely not! Overnight service is an essential element of the NYC subway system. It's what makes the subway go from being a convenience to being a utility. Knowing that I can absolutely rely on subway, or at least a shuttle bus, at any time of the night, is a completely different experience than living in a city where I have to plan might night around the train. Even if it very slow at night, I know it will be there. Like a road.

Besides, I doubt that shutting down all 400 miles of the network will significantly improve maintenance efficiency. They already severely cut back service to a few trains an hour, and they coordinate with maintenance crews pretty well, and crawl past them at 5mph. And the system is big enough so that they can shut down parts of it.

I think the only time the city completely shut down service was during 9/11, but they had partial service again a few hours later, to areas that did not pass through the neighborhood.

But I can tell you that proposing we shut down all service after a certain hour is as ludicrous as saying we should close most of our bridges after a certain hour. The subway is not an add-on for NYC like in it is in most cities, it is an essential feature.

Gracana• 9 years ago

I don't like your suggestion that the union should be disbanded. Union workers are safer than non-union workers, and the US needs safety right now. "This is the third consecutive increase in annual workplace fatalities and the first time more than 5,000 fatalities have been recorded by the Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries (CFOI) since 2008." https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf

rco8786• 9 years ago

Cut service overnight to increase maintenance times

Yea... that's a real bad idea. This city operates 24 hours a day, pretending otherwise is a mistake.

stepanhruda• 9 years ago

jesus christ your suggestions would literally cripple NYC

dazc2• 9 years ago

'.. with the current Conservative government Underground is getting less and less money...'

Welcome to the world as seen by most UK residents, who don't live and work in London.

How Cuts in Basic Subway Upkeep Can Make NYC Commutes Miserable

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