Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/21/world/europe/spain-catalonia-mariano-rajoy.html

by ryanlol • 9 years ago

78 157 9 years ago

Findeton2• 9 years ago

Bound to happen, to say the least.

JaumeGreen9• 9 years ago

The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today).

If this happens civil disobedience will grow.

There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.

Findeton2• 9 years ago

According to a poll from a Catalan newspaper [0] released yesterday, 68% of Catalans prefer regional elections versus an unilateral independence declaration.

[0] http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171020/encuesta-cat...

JaumeGreen9• 9 years ago

Thanks for the link, didn't know that.

Nonetheless I find that most sources lack my trust. There's campaigning from both sides, but the unionists have a huge influence on all the national media.

There's also the big probability that some new elections will have the effect to provide a new Catalan parliament with the same number (at least) of pro-independence elected members.

Then that would "solve" nothing.

craftyguy• 9 years ago

There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns),

So it'll be a massacre?

I don't believe that everyone owning firearms is even remotely close to the answer, but nations get super fucking stupid and desperate when folks try to break away from them, even if the break away process is democratic and peaceful.

cnlevy• 9 years ago

Rajoy is not Assad. He knows there are more effective methods than just shooting at demonstrators

kobeya• 9 years ago

There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns)

Myanmar has gun controls too. That’s really working out for its populace /s

The ignorance and naïveté in this statement is astounding.

avar• 9 years ago

    > We are peaceful people and have no guns.

You might be peaceful, but according to Wikipedia Spain has 10.4 guns for every 100 people[1].

You're either entirely wrong, or Catalonia is an extreme statistical outlier when it comes to gun ownership in Spain.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...

macspoofing• 9 years ago

What does one have to do with the other?

pjc50• 9 years ago

There won't be a civil war

It's increasingly clear that the only two possible outcomes are either abandoning the idea altogether (possibly with an overall reduction in autonomy or proscription of the pro-independence parties); or violence.

You can see even in this thread that nobody in the rest of Spain is even going to consider the possibility of peaceful secession. It's going to end up like 70s Belfast if people go down this route.

notspanishflu29• 9 years ago

No, the secessionists movement is deeply fueled with public funds. Now that Spanish government is going to control that, you can expect way less secessionists support.

pipio212• 9 years ago

The sentiment in the Street by Independentists.

I was in Barcelona 4 days ago. At least 25% of the people there is clearly not independentist.

So stop talking the "sentiment in the street" like there is only one "Poble" in Catalunia that wants independence. If there is a fight it is not going to be against Madrid, but Catalans over Catalans.

JaumeGreen9• 9 years ago

With "the sentiment on the street" I'm referring to the demostrations.

Most are pro-independence, and they are always full of people. Unionists are few and with not that many people (except the one on the 8th of October).

The "the fight will be catalan VS catalan" is an unionist mantra. People want to vote, not fight.

Unionists would love an armed or belligerent pro-independence group, so they could repress us while giving the illusion of being right. That's why our movement will be pacifist.

peter-m80• 9 years ago

I'm catalan and I don't want Independence.

bassman9000• 9 years ago

we won't obey what comes from Madrid

The Constitution, you mean?

Good luck when, in your newly forged Republic, some citizens don't want to obey the Rule of Law, because

we won't obey what comes from Barcelona

navigator012• 9 years ago

Good, we can't allow the dissolution of nations.

tqkxzugoaupvwqr• 9 years ago

Why not? Let them fork, iterate and improve. They have a strong identity and economy, so they must be doing something right. Maybe being tied to a monolith even hinders their progress? (Just ideas for thought.)

navigator012• 9 years ago

Everyone on Earth has a petty identity. If we allow secession just so every self-identifying group can 'rule' themselves then we encourage those petty identities when we should be discouraging them and instead encouraging universal humanism.

mertd• 9 years ago

Sometimes parts are weaker than the whole. The strong economy is possibly part due to investments made with the assumption that Catalonia would be part of Spain for the foreseeable future.

Would London have been the de-facto financial hub of Europe, if people knew Brexit was coming?

TomK322• 9 years ago

Yes, can we have Napoleon's unite Europe back? Or at least the Third Reich? Austria-Hungary was also a terrific idea as was the Ottoman Empire (why did the Greeks every want to rule themselves?)

fiatjaf• 9 years ago

Do you think any other State would allow one of its major sources of income go away like that?

I really hope Catalonia makes it.

rayiner2• 9 years ago

I think the US would let California secede.

skinnymuch2• 9 years ago

Sorry maybe it's going above my head. Is this sarcasm or there's some context?

bitL• 9 years ago

Obligatory "the beatings will continue until morale improves".

notspanishflu29• 9 years ago

Since when applying the law is escalating?

All European Union leaders support the rule according a higher law.

ryanlol14• 9 years ago

Since when applying the law is escalating?

When it is escalating.

jayniz3• 9 years ago

When shooting peaceful civilians with (illegal) rubber ammunition and kicking them in the face, for example.

notspanishflu29• 9 years ago

Source for that?

keymon2• 9 years ago

The rubber balls were forbidden only for the Catalonian police, after the incidents in 2011 and 2012 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/30/catalonia-poli...

lordnacho• 9 years ago

Assuming there's a group of people who more or less agree to be separate from some larger group, it's hard to think of legitimate reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to secede. Their forefathers having signed an agreement is hardly a convincing reason to hold them in a union they no longer like. Neither are issues of the current political situation ("it would destabilize the region...").

There's still hard questions, though. How do we split the national debt? What about various government assets? Who has a choice about what nation to join? And so on.

All hard questions, but none of them seems to undermine the idea that people should be allowed to decide to be separate.

notspanishflu29• 9 years ago

Interestingly enough the same arguments secessionists state for breaking with Spain, they expressly forbid such thing inside Catalonia.

V.g. Barcelona can't propose a secession from Catalonia.

njarboe3• 9 years ago

"The people" includes a lot of people who don't want to separate. If 99% want it I would say OK, maybe. Where does one draw the line? Take a look at how the separation of India and Pakistan went if you want to get an idea of how it might go.

syshum7• 9 years ago

How far do to you extend that? because I highly doubt you can find a single government action, law, policy, or anything where 99% of people agree

So then you find that all government is illegitimate? or is your 99% requirement only valid for separation?

sbmassey• 9 years ago

Czechia and Slokavia would seem an apter comparison.

nadunez• 9 years ago

The unexpectedly forceful moves by Mr. Rajoy

That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do. Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it.

They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion this is simply racketeering, they want a better deal with taxes. This must not stand.

Nothing of this would have happened if secessionists wouldn't have had full access to the education and the media of that region since forever. They have been blasting propaganda por decades. Of course this was bound to happen. I work in the media and I know there's no way to get a grant for your small paper/radio station if you don't align with their values.

There's a widespread sentiment that Spain "is robbing them". But the truth is that this is just redistributing wealth; many regions of Spain give money and others take. That's how the economy works everywhere.

farresito6• 9 years ago

Cool. Let's not negotiate. Consequences? You have a region where 50% of the people are so discontent with the situation that they are willing to go independent. Unsustainable. So you basically give them no option: they can't hold a referendum for an independence, you don't want to find an agreement with them... What kind of government would do that?

notspanishflu29• 9 years ago

Following your argument: lets make happy that 50% breaching the law, and lets punish the 50% honoring the law.

That doesn't make any sense.

scalesolved3• 9 years ago

I've never seen a poll that lists support for full independence at 50% or higher, could you please provide a link?

rdudekul• 9 years ago

Spain is forcing its might on a peaceful majority on Catalonians through violence & other 'onesided-lawful' means. When a significant majority (apparently 90% who polled) wants to separate, calling it a joke, is not really apt.

notspanishflu29• 9 years ago

Spain is forcing its might on a peaceful majority on Catalonians through violence...

Except that statement is completely false.

rflrob• 9 years ago

The 90% who show up to an election that was declared illegal by the national courts aren't likely to be representative of the population at large, though. I recall seeing numbers that the overall turnout was something like 40%, so how you would like to apportion support for independence among the non-voting 60% greatly affects how popular you think independence is.

icebraining7• 9 years ago

If being blasted with propaganda for decades means the people's opinions are invalid, how can the Constitution be defended, when that vote was held after more than thirty years of propaganda by a totalitarian (by its own admission) government?

whatyoucantsay2• 9 years ago

The interesting question is what level of brutality the EU is willing to accept before intervening.

farresito6• 9 years ago

They won't intervene, as it is 'domestic issues'. They are more than happy to turn a blind eye as long as there's nothing physical, since a hypothetical independence would cause instability in the EU and might give the pro-Independence movement more legitimacy.

notspanishflu29• 9 years ago

The European Union leaders ain't turning a blind eye, they have showed their express support to the Spanish government, and to the rule of law.

notspanishflu29• 9 years ago

Something more than fake news, that's for sure.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/catalonia-demo...

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/02/inenglish/1506943013_99...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/19...

whatyoucantsay2• 9 years ago

The spectre of fake news and its accompanying uncertainties could certainly raise the threshold.

baxtr5• 9 years ago

I’ve been to Barcelona quite often. People are nice and friendly. One time though when I was out eating dinner with a Spanish friend from Madrid something strange happened: the waiter told her she could not order in Spanish, she needed to speak Catalan, which was totally weird since we ordered in Spanish right before she ordered. But our Spanish was of course quite bad with a foreign accent, he was ok with that. We thought that was quite rude and impolite and ended up dining somewhere else.

I definitely don’t know enough to judge the whole thing. However, from what I know, as a European, the secession movement bewilders me. It strangely feels very un-European. How can we unite the continent if we start separating countries? Can we not all just get along together and not care so much about the details of our passport? Which problem is independence solving?

JaumeGreen9• 9 years ago

Which restaurant? Did you raise a complain?

Sorry but these stories ring untrue, given that Barcelona is both a huge touristic destination and most servers speaking Spanish as a rule.

notspanishflu29• 9 years ago

Barcelona's local government has been pretty aggressive against tourism lately.

Edit: Ok, is impossible to have a conversation when secessionists are downvoting every comment. Fine. I prefer to post arguments, and sources.

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/talktojazeera/2017/04/ba...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/11643...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/01/barcelona-anti...

icebraining7• 9 years ago

I think the idea was that the server understood she was Spanish and therefore that he was hostile to her, not that he didn't speak Spanish.

ASalazarMX• 9 years ago

It rings as true to me. I've been to small towns in Catalonia, and while most people figures I'm Mexican and treat me as a tourist, a few locals would feign not understanding a word of Spanish and would only speak to you in Catalan, even if you're trying to buy something from them.

icebraining7• 9 years ago

Which problem is independence solving?

Have you looked for their arguments, or are your questions rhetorical?

Saying this is about "the details of our passports" is a bit disrespectful. Being part of Spain is about much more than that - as I think both sides would agree. And I don't see why the separation of countries would prevent the union of the continent.

baxtr5• 9 years ago

I did not intend to be disrespectful in any way. I am - as I wrote - judging this with my limited knowledge of the matter, which is probably more or less on the same level of other Europeans watching things unfold right now. Not more, not less.

Thus, no, my question was absolutely not rhetorical. Happy to hear which problem their trying to solve.

jseip• 9 years ago

Democracy is democracy until it's not.

ardit332• 9 years ago

It looks like Spain are coming as the bad guys in the whole ordeal, trying to keep their "vassal" state at any cost. Seems like a throwback to feudal times. They could have made a reasonable deal. Referendum would be valid if there is over 50% participation and a super majority 2/3rds approve it (over 66% of YES, for independence).

Most likely the independence vote would have lost, people felt they expressed their rights and Spain would move on to deal with their economy and other matters. Squashing referendums with violence made them look bad and lose the moral ground on the international scale and just embolden the separatists (who wants to live under an oppressive regime anyways).

Also the EU is coming out as a loser in this case. They demonstrated that they basically don't give a fudge about their citizens (which Catalans are), and just want to preserve the political status quo.

notspanishflu29• 9 years ago

Spanish sovereignty resides in all Spaniards, not just a part of them. It is in the Spanish Constitution.

If secessionists lose an election, they'll keep asking for another, and another.

ardit332• 9 years ago

Lol, no, it resides on the folks that live on those states. Constitutions change. (the last change was in 78, right?).

Fromer Yougoslavia broke off, as the separate states wanted their own countries. Somewhere was peaceful (Slovenia), and very bloody, (the rest of the states).

They are much much better off by themselves right now. Things change, and if Catalonia wants their independence they should.

6t6t6t62• 9 years ago

And the sovereignty of the government comes from the social contract. When a big part of the citizens feel that they are not represented by the government, the social contract is broken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

The Spaniards seem to love Rajoy, as they give him the majority in every election. Rajoy's party, "Partido Popular", is voted by less than 8% of the Catalans.

So, the question is, why the Catalans need to be governed by a political party, that not only rules against them, but that does not represent Catalan society?

There are more than 2 million people that do not accept the government of Madrid. How will Madrid rule over all this people without transforming Spain to a full-blown dictatorship again?

pipio212• 9 years ago

Given that "Catalunia leader" has dissolved the Parlament (Catalunia local congress) and declared independence(but saying that he suspended it), it is only logical what the Government has to do.

The central Government is not escalating anything, on the contrary, it has been extremely weak.

Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5 minutes of that for the country to act.

The Parlament local laws said that you need two thirds of the Parlament in order to do anything serious. Those guys wanted to declare independence with half the seats plus one. Those seats represent less people that those that were not independentists.

In the case of Spain it has taken almost a month to do something, and most of the responsible people are out there free, earning a very good salary for trying to destroy the country.

In China when revolution won everything that Chinese elite did was bad, even if they did some things well, like having hygienic manners. As a result, living in China today is extremely disgusting.

In Spain the same happens with anything Franco dictatorship did. We always have to do the opposite of what Franco would have done.

So because Franco was nationalist and brave(he risked his life over 200 hundred times in battle) politicians believe that democracy needs to be against the nation and weakness the rule. They do not consider that you could be a democracy and take your country seriously.

So they made it legal for politicians that want to destroy the system be part of the System. They gave territories more autonomy, a local tv, local police, the education and health system.

Local police now is acting like a private independentists police(like the SA and SS were private armies of Hitler against Germany army and police). Local TV and radio uses their airtime to put loop videos of Spanish police "brutality" (nothing compared against last Germany action in the G20 summit or Britain with Brexit protests), where the local police has not followed orders by central Government.

The local health system(following also local orders) declared anyone having an anxiety crisis for watching local TV loops to be an officially "injured" by Spanish police. More than 200 "injured" by Spanish police had just watched TV.

syshum7• 9 years ago

>Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5 minutes of that for the country to act.

We have a strong Federalist Society and I think it would take much longer than 5 mins to act.

While the US Federal Government has gain alot of power after the last 100 years it is still not the Top Dogs, Under the US Constitution the State governments can amend and/or abolish the Federal Government if they so choose.

The US Constitution is entirely about limiting the power and scope of the US Federal Government, a fact that seems to be lost both in international understanding of the US, and sadly domestically as well since we have more and more people thinking the Constitution is about "Giving people rights" or outlining what an individual can do, instead of its original and true purpose of defining what the government is allowed to do

Prime example of this is National Speed Limits, there is no way for the US Federal Government to demand a speed limit so when they wanted to establish said limit of 65, they had to do it by bribes and extortion they tied federal funding for roads to the passage of state laws establishing a 65 speed limit, states that did not pass such a law would lose billions in federal money

So no I do not believe the reaction would be as you think it would be here in the States

A more modern and pressing example is the ongoing conflict between several states and the US Federal Government over Marijuana where multiple states have now openly defied the federal laws on prohibition of this plant.

And on Immigration where they openly resist and obstruct enforcement of Federal Immigration Law.

No in the US the State government are regularly in opposition to the Federal Government

foldr11• 9 years ago

Have you forgotten about the Civil War? It didn't go down super peacefully the last time a group of states tried to go it alone.

JaumeGreen9• 9 years ago

Catalonia'president has not dissolved the parliament, neither has he disbanded it.

There will be a parlamentari meeting next week to debate what to do with the application of the 155 and how to respond. Has just said so in a televised speech.

Just with the inaccuracy you started marks all the rest you wrote as "things to doubt".

yellowapple• 9 years ago

It's almost like Spain wants Catalonia to secede.

justin668• 9 years ago

It's worse than that. It is as if Spain wants Catalonia to look justified in seceding in the eyes of the world. Pretty much everyone in the world would have regarded a secession referendum from Catalonia - regardless of how it was decided - as an unimportant joke until the Spanish government started beating people over it.

icebraining7• 9 years ago

Yeah, I always suspected Rajoy to be an idiot, but this really confirmed it. The handling of this situation has been just terrible.

JaumeGreen9• 9 years ago

Look at the electoral results. PP, the current governing party in Spain, doesn't get good results in Catalonia.

Its main opponents, PSOE, does get decent results there, as does the alternative, PODEMOS.

So they have absolutely nothing to lose, politically speaking, losing us.

Not only that, but they have used, and still use, Catalonia as a ghost whom they fight, in order to gain votes in the rest of Spain.

And lastly, there are active cases against them by justice, all this is casting a smokescreen so people won't notice if they are declared guilty,or when they pardon their friends.

thetxef• 9 years ago

National media is crying outloud people are 'adoctrinated' in Catalonia in favour of independence...how that saying? like seeing the mote in one's brother's eye without noticing the beam in one's own.

synicalx• 9 years ago

As far as I can tell they want out for two reasons:

1. They want to preserve their own culture, which is apparently distinct from Spain's.

2. They've some issue with the Spanish government, seems to be around corruption and/or unfair treatment. Don't know enough about this to comment on it though.

How does seceding make sense here? It's not the only solution, it's one of many, and it's probably one of the worst - they're going to torpedo Spain's recovering economy, and have to build a new country of their own. Who's going to run the hospitals? Where's the money/electricity/food/water/fuel etc coming from?

Spain Will Remove Catalonia Leader, Escalating Secession Crisis

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