Slack using React Dev Build in Production

https://twitter.com/pankowecki/status/892294002040594434

by tosh • 9 years ago

181 97 9 years ago

twitter.com

phpnode2• 9 years ago

Surprising given that Slack's performance is something people regularly complain about

slindz2• 9 years ago

Or.... it's not surprising at all.

phpnode2• 9 years ago

Surprising because it's probably the lowest hanging fruit possible

micael_dias• 9 years ago

"We use the dev build of React. It makes it easier for us to debug issues our customers might be experiencing. "

Is it that hard to debug the production build?

Griever• 9 years ago

I wonder if they were for some reason unable to emit a sourcemap of their js bundle. Unless they are doing something special here, that should be sufficient for debugging.

jchw3• 9 years ago

That really does explain why the RAM usage is so damn bad. Comparing it to Discord for example is night and day.

nilidah2• 9 years ago

I've pretty much resorted to using slack in my browser. It all runs so much better.

jchw3• 9 years ago

Actually that is exactly what I'd been doing. I recently upgraded to 32 GB of RAM and now the desktop app is usable again, but obviously this is still not even reasonable.

bathtub7• 9 years ago

Once you tried Discord you wonder why people are still using Slack.

Btw, Discord also surpassed Slack in traffic on SimilarWeb.

empath75• 9 years ago

Do you use discord at work?

tosh2• 9 years ago

Discord feels very responsive and lightweight. Anyone knows what their stack looks like?

lmm• 9 years ago

I do for outside-asking-for-help. At my current client internal communications have to be self-hosted so neither Slack nor Discord is an option; if I were still at the startup where I worked previously (where teams chose their own tools) I'd certainly be pushing Discord.

notheguyouthink3• 9 years ago

Do you find Discord to perform better than Slack? Any thoughts as to why?

I've used Discord for gaming related purposes on another computer, but it didn't feel... "better" to me. Sluggish at times, but in understandably large rooms with lots of traffic.

I'm mainly curious in your statement as to how Discord performs compared to Slack, and if better, how they achieve "better".

bathtub7• 9 years ago

Onboarding is a millions times easier.

With Slack you need for every chat a new login/password and 100 clicks for sign-up, skip tutorial and email-verification, WTH why? Getting users into Discord is one single click. With Discord you have one login and you can have different names per server.

And Slacks admin pages are just a confusing pile of mess, my .vimrc is light-weight compared. Slack is so overrated and people just use it because everybody does.

Discord has never been sluggish for me.

However, both are timewasters.

sandGorgon2• 9 years ago

It is even more surprising that by just adding a few privacy features, they can start targeting the corporate market.

I would gladly pay them.

developer2• 9 years ago

Privacy is a huge concern. It's difficult to phrase this properly without sounding like an asshole, but Discord's development team has a lot of very young people (no proof, but I'd swear some of them are 13-16 years old). If you've ever listened in on their Discord voice channels, the level of immaturity is astounding. Power to them - it's great to see talented youth create a great product. I just wouldn't trust them with a business's confidential information.

Discord's specifics aside, it blows my mind that people use any off-site SAAS for internal communications, including Slack. The database set contains so much critical information, including infrastructure passwords, private SSL and SSH certs, etc. Employees will send anything and everything over the company's chat client. Even if you trust the company's employees and general security, the fact remains that your uploaded attachments typically have a public URL not requiring authentication to download.

Sir_Cmpwn2• 9 years ago

It's a wonder that any of these services enjoy success when IRC exists.

res0nat0r• 9 years ago

There are a million more embedded features in Slack than there are in IRC. Sure someone could spend a year trying to implement all of those plugins in their private IRC server and it be less functional and user friendly, but why would someone want to waste their time and money doing that?

Spoom2• 9 years ago

As an IRC, Slack, and Matrix user and netadmin, I will say that Slack and other nextgen chat services have a few advantages over IRC:

- automatic backlog resumption

- server stored pageable backlog

- continuous presence (you don't disappear from the channel when you leave, you're just marked as away)

- authentication built into the spec rather than implemented using a "services" layer

- general upgrades to what is allowed in the chat, such as long pastes, inline images, and file uploads

If you haven't tried Matrix yet (the best client is probably Riot at https://riot.im/ ), I encourage you to give it a try. It's essentially next generation IRC.

Raphmedia2• 9 years ago

IRC as a service. Allows users to pay a static amount each month and have a solid chat solution.

Raphmedia2• 9 years ago

Discord is too branded as a gaming tool. No way I could convince any professionals to use it.

Sonicrida• 9 years ago

I've done this already. Definitely an easier pitch for startups.

bathtub7• 9 years ago

What?

This is where they started and you can also use the product for everything else than gaming.

And if you mean the dark theme you can change this to a bright innocent I-am-serious-engineer Slack theme.

lm2s• 9 years ago

FWIW, I tried Discord recently and it felt more sluggish and heavier than Slack on macOS.

bathtub7• 9 years ago

I made the opposite experiece and just made a test with some medium and similar sized chat servers with many users amd history (bitcoin related chat servers) on Slack and Discord in Chrome which should represent their native Electron apps:

Data from Chrome Inspector's network tab:

          Slack Discord
  Req.       93     103
  Transf.22.4MB   5.2MB
  Finish 39.19s   6.48s
  DomCL.  6.53s   4.01s
  Load   21.70s   4.16s

Maybe some more of us could do some tests as well. Anyways, I really can't believe that Discord is sluggish. Slack definitely is. First I thought it is so slow because they load all the chat history but they don't.

andy_ppp• 9 years ago

More evidence of my theory that the worst solution for the majority always seems to win right now...

bantunes• 9 years ago

That's short-sighted. Electron sucks, but the fact people use it means there's a lack of proper, easy solutions for multiplatform development.

Companies will always take the easy path because capitalism. It's up to us (native toolkit devs) to make the easier path better.

detaro• 9 years ago

The tweet discussed is about their web version

swiley2• 9 years ago

Bundling an X11 server and writing your app in Motif/Lesstif would be easier and less resource intensive honestly.

Is there a platform out there that has no X server?

tosh2• 9 years ago

Atom and Slack often get critiqued for their use of an HTML5 stack. I'd also like better performance when it comes to startup time, memory usage and responsiveness regarding interactions (I'm using a 12" Macbook) but the stack is so useful and universal that it is here to stay and worth figuring out how to get to great performance (similar to how Emacs figured out how to work around slow startup).

Are there examples for HTML5 apps that manage to have great performance? Are there inherent limits?

aczerepinski• 9 years ago

VS Code performs well.

lucideer• 9 years ago

I'll second this.

There's been articles on HN specifically about how slow VS Code is, particularly the one about rendering cursor blinking, and of course anything running on Electron will never compete work the likes of vim, &c.

However, as Electron apps go, I've found it noticeably faster and less resource intensive than any others. Slack in particular is comparatively terrible, as was Atom in the past (people have said it's improved but I've not felt the need to try it again recently)

marcelfahle2• 9 years ago

Discord is pretty snappy, even with tons of users..

moron4hire• 9 years ago

It's pretty buggy, though. On Windows, at least once a day it resizes down to a window only big enough to hold the X button to close the window. And it drains the hell out of my battery on Android.

aspencer8111• 9 years ago

Currently running Slack App, Atom App, and Spotify App on my MBP. According to my system stats, I'm consuming 3GB of RAM across the entire system (OS and all of the above).

So what I would like to know is wtf everyone is doing in these apps to create this CRAZY amount of resource hogging they keep bitching about? Or are they rockin chomebooks? Seriously? I want to know where all of this nonsense is coming from?

daxaxelrod2• 9 years ago

Fun Fact! The Spotify desktop client is written in C++! https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-technology-behind-the-Spot....

But I agree, Atom and Slack are really useful to if they consume another 250mb of ram because "It's not optimal", let them use it.

piva00• 9 years ago

Most of the time Slack is behaving quite well but I've experience it running into 80+% CPU for long periods of time while eating 2-3GiB of RAM, I always forced quit and didn't bother. But yes, sometimes it turns into a resource hog, same with VSCode or Atom, something sometimes makes them feel unresponsive and "laggy".

lagadu• 9 years ago

At least on Windows Slack is very memory-hungry, here's mine right now on my work laptop: http://i.imgur.com/76RQeHv.png

No idea why, it's only joining one team with under 20 people and ~5 channels.

xigency• 9 years ago

That is a crazy amount of resource hogging at 3GB.

You're running a music player, a text editor (or IDE), and a chat client. I would expect reasonably that would use less memory. One point you could make is that even native application alternatives, ones that don't use Electron, would be bloated and I would have to agree. Visual Studio .NET is pretty darn slow/cumbersome itself.

dsacco• 9 years ago

3GB of RAM is precious (and I say that as someone who has 128GB)!

Your bar should not be, "Well, I don't see a slowdown." Many people still develop software on computers with only 8GB total RAM. Throw in a browser and one or two more applications and you're getting close to exhausting that.

Eventually you are going to exhaust your memory resources; using software with poor performance constraints is (in my opinion) inherently antagonistic to a development machine. That's not to say I'm against desktop JavaScript/HTML5 apps categorically, I just think they need much better optimization.

merb• 9 years ago

how's that even possible? I mean just the kernel + mds_store and mdworker of mac take like 2gb of memory.

I also run two java processes with 1gb predefined (well probably I could fine tune them to use 512mb). and one angular/cli which accounts for 800mb. plus my database which got 500mb aswell.

spotify on mac used way more than 500mb memory, the last time I used it and also had an extreme amount of i/o pressure. atom actually did use at least 500 mb memory as well, with just the c# plugin.

013a2• 9 years ago

Slack on my computer, with five teams, consumes 1.8gb of RAM.

Microsoft Word, with a multi-page complicated document, is using 200mb.

Just because we _have_ the resources to allow applications to bloat doesn't mean we should be alright with it. Its a similar argument to electric versus ICE cars; just because gas is cheap doesn't mean we shouldn't support EVs. EVs are fundamentally better for the future.

If we focus on performance optimizing the apps we use, it opens up a wide range of new computing hardware. You make fun of chromebooks, but imagine how much more interesting your work would be if you could use a machine with that performance. Battery life would be substantially higher. The cost of the machine would be substantially lower. The only reason most people need massive performance beasts is because we've pushed abstraction hell and bad engineering practices, so all of our tools suck.

Docker is another offender in recent times. Its great if you're on Linux, but few people are. So on OSX, we need to run a VM, so there goes another gig of memory.

sokoloff• 9 years ago

similar to how Emacs figured out how to work around slow startup

By dumping binaries, creating emacsclient, but mostly by waiting 25+ years for fast computers w/SSDs to come along?

I love emacs, but slow startup was a problem for multiple decades, IMO.

e40• 9 years ago

The emacs analogy is a terrible one. I start emacs once a month (or longer). I start slack once a day, sometimes more.

sudhirj• 9 years ago

If you look outside first world countries, yes. Check out the progressive web apps talks in Google IO 2017 - most of the examples on stage were indian companies flipkart.com, housing.com and a few others. I work on www.justickets.in myself.

We have a huge Android market here, but they're all phones with very low storage and slow 3G connections, so the default way to get an 'app' out is a HTML5 progressive web app. And the companies here work hard to make things run fast and smooth on slow devices.

jrimbault• 9 years ago

Anecdotal, I remember a few months back someone showed here on HN "skytorrents.in", which I assume was made by an Indian, it was blazzingly fast.

usegolang• 9 years ago

I'm not sure how effective it is but I always liked the idea of forcing engineers to use those 3g speeds 1 day a week so they are more inclined to support those customers. Iirc FB does this to some degree, but I think they have a different lightweight version of FB intended for those audiences

shash7• 9 years ago

Yeah I remember back in India page speed was a real concern not because google could penalize you but the network speed was so slow. Not sure now but back then Bsnl used to suck big time.

After coming to Australia, everyone here treats +4mb websites as normal which was a real mind twister for me. Thankfully pagespeed has always been my concern regardless of network speeds due to my 'conditioning' years ago.

conradk• 9 years ago

I've always found Fastmail's mobile app to be amazingly native-like even though it uses HTML5.

dzhiurgis• 9 years ago

I honestly don't understand why you need a desktop app to run chat.

013a2• 9 years ago

Plenty. Discord, VSCode, and MongoBooster are all apps that I feel hit 90% of native performance while still being based on web tech. Hyper terminal is another one which has very specific reproducible performance issues, but overall is pretty great and fast.

Its incompetence on behalf of Slack and Github, not the tech itself.

hamburglar1• 9 years ago

Spotify was also doing this until very recently

therealmarv• 9 years ago

cool, but I still get very high CPU when a gif from giphy is running in background macOS Slack app!

Androider• 9 years ago

The performance difference between dev and prod builds of React is significant in my experience. In tests of an animated interface (fairly heavy app otherwise as well), a prod build did 2-3x the raw FPS of the dev build.

I can't really imagine what type of benefit they believe they're getting. Your error tracking system does re-assemble the stack from a out-of-band delivered sourcemap, even in prod, even with multiple versions deployed simultaneously... right? Like any decent error tracking system such as Rollbar or Sentry will do out of the box. Tell me you didn't build your own and can't even unwind a production error trace.

badthingfactory• 9 years ago

React dev builds are terribly slow at rendering large lists. Open Slack and scroll up for about a minute. It becomes unresponsive very quickly.

I don't understand how deploying React's dev build would help anyway... Do they regularly run into bugs where they need to step into React code?

TremendousJudge• 9 years ago

scrolling up also makes CPU usage spike on chrome (and by extension, on the electron app). This doesn't happen with Firefox

jbg_• 9 years ago

I gave up on the Slack desktop client after regularly finding it using 3GB of RAM for no obvious reason. Switched to the browser client but found it buggier and needed to be refreshed periodically due to becoming so slow that there was a noticeable delay on keypresses. Now I'm using Slack via XMPP using Pidgin and things are much, much better.

GrinningFool• 9 years ago

Would this be a factor in Slack's consistent 20% CPU usage when it's idle? (electron app/linux)

phatbyte• 9 years ago

Someone needs to explain Slack what sourcemaps are and what they are used for ;P

tbrock• 9 years ago

This makes absolutely no sense. In no way would the debug output help them remotely. Hopefully the visibility will now cause this to get fixed.

jakef• 9 years ago

You're all looking at this from a dev perspective ... look at Slack's customer base.

Slack Enterprise is expensive for a messaging service, and one of their main selling points is support and reliability. When a huge customer reports a breaking bug they need to resolve it ASAP, turnaround time is probably the number-one priority.

loganekz• 9 years ago

The Wall Street Journal [1] also does this.

[1] https://www.wsj.com

Slack using React Dev Build in Production

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