Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21720590-recep-tayyip-erdogan-carrying-out-harshest-crackdown-decades-west-must-not-abandon

by sukruh • 9 years ago

82 113 9 years ago

economist.com

c3534l• 9 years ago

The problem is the vote has likely already been counted and any voting is just for an aura of legitimacy.

gkya6• 9 years ago

We take votes very serious here and there are multiple NGOs that are on top of things all around the country. I've once worked with CHP on an election day at a local office and can say that it's nearly impossible to do tricks in any elections.

rdmsr• 9 years ago

All you need for constitutional reform is a 50% majority on a referendum. That seems way too easy.

matt_wulfeck• 9 years ago

Totally agree. Constitutional changes should be difficult by design.

mavdi• 9 years ago

Same saga with Brexit. 52% condemned the rest and the generations to come to political insanity.

untog• 9 years ago

A timely warning to the US, too - as more and more Senate votes are being decided by 50% majority rather than their traditional 2/3 (EDIT: sorry, 3/5). That both parties indulge in it should be worrying to everyone.

aanm19885• 9 years ago

The US should worry more about the electoral college finally breaking down and allowing the minority to control the presidency. Should worry more about gerrymandering too.

int_19h2• 9 years ago

With Senate, the simple 50% majority is by design. That's consistent with most other bicameral parliaments out there, which also vote on a simple majority basis. Since the issues they can vote on are restricted by the Constitution, it's not really a big deal. The big deal is amending the Constitution itself, which is extremely difficult (if anything, probably more difficult than it should be).

slurry• 9 years ago

It was 3/5, not 2/3, to break a filibuster, and the use of filibusters had been getting to unprecedented levels. The argument above was that constitutional change should be hard I.e. require a supermajority. The Senate rules as followed recently have been requiring a supermajority for ANY change. That is unhealthy.

gefh• 9 years ago

Sliding? More like rushing full throttle. Ataturk would be disgusted.

upquark2• 9 years ago

What makes reddit and now HN think Ataturk was some sort of beacon of democracy?

In January 1920, Mustafa Kemal advanced his troops into Marash where the Battle of Marash ensued against the French Armenian Legion. The battle resulted in a Turkish victory alongside the massacres of 5,000–12,000 Armenians spelling the end of the remaining Armenian population in the region.

He finished off the Cilician Armenians from Anatolia, whoever was left under French protection and had escaped the Genocide.

jrez225• 9 years ago

It was war not genocide

lightbyte• 9 years ago

What makes reddit and now HN think Ataturk was some sort of beacon of democracy?

I haven't seen anyone say that. People are specifically saying he would be disgusted with how non secular Turkey has become since secularizing Turkey was one of his biggest things.

xenihn• 9 years ago

Every culture that we have any sort of knowledge of is or was an amalgamation of other cultures that were absorbed.

return04• 9 years ago

democracy and genocide are not incompatible

Vorch4• 9 years ago

Read more on what lead to banishment of Armenians. If you attack unprotected Turkish villages with the help of foreign powers and betray your neighbours, you face the consequences, this is war. Also there was no such thing as hating Armenians til aforementioned betrayal. At the time there were even couple of high ranking statesman like Gabriel Noradunkyan from Armenians.

bogomipz2• 9 years ago

"What makes reddit and now HN think Ataturk was some sort of beacon of democracy?"

Because he abolished the Ottoman Sultanate that had ruled for nearly 500 years and established a secular democracy. He also gave women rights.

I don't think this is a fact in any way specific to HN or Reddit but rather to history itself.

mertd• 9 years ago

Atatürk was not a beacon of democracy, he never pretended to be. As a military man, he did resort to heavy handed methods at times. The republic he left behind as his legacy is however one when you consider the circumstances. He created a secular, Muslim majority country that was aligned with the Western ideals and was even ahead of Europe in some aspects (women's suffrage). This is truly impressive considering no country in the region has been close to that level in the last century.

dang• 9 years ago

Please don't post unsubstantive-indignant comments to HN regardless of how right you are. Such comments are reliably destructive of the quality of conversation we're hoping for. This is clearly seen below, where the thread devolves into a flamewar about genocide, but it happens pretty much every time, so we all need to learn not to post like this.

If you have a substantive point to make, please make it thoughtfully; otherwise please don't post until you do.

bpodgursky• 9 years ago

I've read the Economist for a long time, and they should be ashamed of themselves for not calling out how wrong they were when Erdogan was first elected.

Their line was that the AK's "moderate Islamism" would be good for democracy long-term, and anyone who was afraid of political Islam was regressive.

Yeah, sometimes editors and opinion pieces are wrong. But admit it when you are -- I haven't seen the Economist staff learn anything from this sad episode.

davidw• 9 years ago

They - at least for a time - regularly mentioned how wrong they'd gotten the invasion of Iraq. So they do that on occasion.

bogomipz2• 9 years ago

To be fair the Economist wasn't alone in a such optimistic proclamations surrounding Turkey's democracy in the region. Similar sentiment was coming out of Washington as well:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/06/obama.turkey/

rz2k• 9 years ago

What kind of turnover do they have at the Economist? The writing seems a lot like a student newspaper staffed by really smart people who have studied a year or two of economics or international relations.

sdiq• 9 years ago

I think Erdogan, the dictator, and 'moderate Islamism' as you quote, are two different things and we shouldn't conflate the two. If anything, his arch-nemesis, the US based Fethullah Gulen, is also an Islamist though of a different shade. Now, if this Gulen (if it is true he was behind the recently failed coup, or, otherwise) did manage to lead Turkey and ended up being different from Erdogan, when it comes to the dictatorial tendencies being overtly exhibited currently, Islamism, I think, wouldn't be the problem here but Erdogan, the individual.

kolbe2• 9 years ago

Is it? I don't have any real data on it, but anecdotally, it seems like Islamic rule correlates very strongly with dictatorships.

enraged_camel2• 9 years ago

Back when he was first elected in 2004, Erdogan was not the huge asshole that he is today. His party actually conducted a lot of useful reforms that were beneficial for the country.

Over time though he slid into authoritarianism, and started jailing or exiling people who disagreed with him. Some people believe this was him showing his true colors, while others think it's a combination of his narcissism and severe paranoia getting the better of him.

Don't get me wrong: Turkey was never the pinnacle of freedom and the fair treatment of minorities. But, for people who care about liberal democracy and the separation of religion and state, things are inarguably in a much worse shape today than they were a decade ago.

hackuser4• 9 years ago

Back when he was first elected in 2004, Erdogan was not the huge asshole that he is today. His party actually conducted a lot of useful reforms that were beneficial for the country. / Over time though he slid into authoritarianism

That is the standard practice of authoritarians. Rarely do they announce before being elected, 'if you elect me, I'm going to do away with democracy and become a dictator'. First they get elected, then consolidate power (including by governing in a way that builds political support), and then they seize power.

The fact that he behaved in the way the parent describes doesn't mean he didn't plan to seize power as an authoritarian dictator (and it doesn't mean that he did). If the future authoritarians were easily identified ahead of time, they wouldn't have much chance of advancing their plans.

TillE• 9 years ago

The only thing about this which surprises me is how Erdogan seemed to really want Turkey to become a member of the EU, and yet has been actively doing everything he can to make that impossible.

Then again, he tends to say and do a lot of odd things, so I guess the simple answer is to not assume any kind of competence or rational thinking from political leaders.

gkya6• 9 years ago

The thing is today that's what goes with the base of AKP. Political leaders are never stupid, we sometimes believe so because they're doing things weird to us, while we are not who they care about at all.

On the other hand, nobody really cares about Europe here nowadays, as in more than half a century all they've done is exploit and humiliate us. I, as a secular irreligious turkish citizen, don't want my government to allow that sort of thing no matter what, whichever party should the ruling one be.

NicoJuicy6• 9 years ago

Actually, I think your dead wrong. Watch what happens when you defriend Europe as a partner to your economy. We share a lot ( not the only country though), but if you attack us, we don't need to do anything... People just stop being interested in your country and your economy slips away. No outside Western investments and tourism anymore.

I don't know if that's a good thing, but you shouldn't be happy with what Erdogan is doing...

Wasn't the last line in a speech of Erdogan: Come visit Turkey. It means that he's scared for losing the benefit of being our friend.

Now, I hope you like tourism being partially replaced with 'friendly' Russians :)

+ Exploiting Turkey? Got real proof? I know for sure Turkey had good economic growth because of the EU, not despite of the EU. Then again, we will know for sure in the coming 5 years of I'm right or wrong. Already Turkey is beginning to slip in negative economic growt and that's not our fault. Erdogan is alienating European civilians

jrez225• 9 years ago

Erdogan used EU to get rid of the military check on Islamist trying to dismantle democracy. Eu is stupid. Every modern Turk warned them and no one listened. No the EU will reap what its sown.

aanm19885• 9 years ago

Erdogan used EU to get rid of the military check

How did the EU do that?

Lev1a• 9 years ago

Turkey is only part of the EU in Erdogans wet dreams.

usrusr2• 9 years ago

Did he, or did he really just want to seem wanting to, to those who liked the idea? I could well imagine the EU question to be one of those topics where one group is fiercely convinced of their answer whereas the other is mostly close to undecided. In a situation like that the opportunistic course of action would be pretty clear.

VLM• 9 years ago

Their creativity doesn't imply incompetence or irrationality. For example NATO/EU bombs the heck out of zillions of countries so a counterstrategy of "we are almost members of your own alliance" is a brilliant shield.

The other interesting strategy is the EU is indecisive about if the purpose of the EU should be to help the EU people or if its merely a cloak to hide German rule. Often an issue will be polarized along that axis. Naturally some commentary will align with "the purpose of the EU is non-military takeover of Europe by Germany" and some commentary will align with "serving all European people" and this is going to look really odd. The only way to avoid that is to self censor certain topics, unless of course your actual purpose is to stir stuff up to distract NATO/EU from bombing.

ajross• 9 years ago

For example NATO/EU bombs the heck out of zillions of countries so a counterstrategy of "we are almost members of your own alliance" is a brilliant shield.

Turkey has been part of NATO for sixty five years. That's not why.

ocschwar• 9 years ago

Mussolini may have sincerely wanted to be a run of the mill leftist.

Head of state is the kind of job that draws narcissists, and when they feel slighted, bad things happen. Checks and balances are important, yo.

treehau53• 9 years ago

This is even more reason to contribute to activists trying to stop the conversion of Hagia Sophia into a Mosque. It is a piece of 6th century history that we as a civilization just cannot afford to lose.

tdb78933• 9 years ago

I thought it was already used as one? I don't particularly care what it's used for as long as it's generally open to the public, are they planning on closing it off to people or tearing it down or something?

treehau53• 9 years ago

If anything it should be a Orthodox Church, but since no one can agree on that, it should be transferred to UNESCO, and treated as a cultural site and museum. If it resumes being used as a Mosque, to avoid any slippery slope fallacies, it will most likely result in a lot of the preservation of the historicity of the location being lost.

tptacek2• 9 years ago

Yes, definitely a good reason to re-litigate historical events from 1451.

treehau53• 9 years ago

Considering the Greeks were not liberated from the Ottoman yoke until 1829, with genocides and killings from "modern" Turkey not stopping until the early 1910's, I'd say it's not exactly ancient history, either.

To put it into context, "Greek Independence Day" comes after American Independence Day.

sampo3• 9 years ago

The Hagia Sophia was converted from mosque to museum in 1931-1935, so you must mean re-litigating historical events from 1930s?

nomercy4002• 9 years ago

Meanwhile, could you send those activists to the Pantheon (2nd century history) in Rome, where the 'temple for all gods' is now a Roman-Catholic church.

return04• 9 years ago

As long as the monument is not vandalized, they can do whatever they want with it. It serves them better as a museum, testament to the universal glory of the city, but it's not like it hasn't been used as a mosque before. Of course Edrogan uses the situation to raise tensions between greece and turkey (and possibly russia), which gives him extra machismo points.

acchow2• 9 years ago

  The West must not abandon Turkey

Huh? So are we supposed to meddle in other countries' politics and government? Or are we not?

kislakiruben• 9 years ago

Aren't we already doing this? Or are you being sarcastic?

acchow2• 9 years ago

My point was we get so much flak for doing this.

But then sometimes we're "supposed" to do it? Which is it?

soared• 9 years ago

This website is disgusting. I have to close four dialog boxes and the content takes is ~30% of my screen. I expected better from the economist.

return04• 9 years ago

"Let's make everything fixed, it will look SO good on small displays"

nomercy4002• 9 years ago

Now I wonder, what will the NATO do when Turkey becomes a dictatorship.

adrenalinelol• 9 years ago

I suspect they'll beat around the issue. Most of the West's pertinent military conflicts are in the Middle East. Turkey's position makes it an extremely valuable ally and abdicating a significant strategic on moral grounds makes no military sense.

pmyteh• 9 years ago

Almost certainly nothing. NATO has had plenty of dictatorships as members, including Turkey during its various military takeovers.

hutzlibu3• 9 years ago

Nothing, as long as he does not partner up with russia ...

gkya6• 9 years ago

So saddening the amount of ignorance and hate I see here in HN regarding my country. I wish nothing about Turkey gets submitted again here so that I can continue to visit HN as a hackers' and tech entrepreneurs' forum.

You clearly don't know anything about our history. You don't even know who we are. You insult us with your superficial readings of superficial wikipedia articles. We don't need this at all.

We're having hard times, but I still have hope. After all, civilisation was invented here. I wish we were able to export the better parts too.

mediaman• 9 years ago

Complaining that others don't know as much as an expert (you) isn't going to help change anyone's perspective. Most people's perspective about most subjects is superficial. The same can be said for you: you know very little about most people in most countries.

If you want perspective changed, tell people what's wrong, or the real story, without hating on the people who could benefit from your expertise. Then your audience will know more. I think most people here would appreciate hearing your perspective (with much deeper knowledge of culture and history) on the current events.

gkya6• 9 years ago

I don't really hate anybody. I don't believe in nations at all, if this means something to you. If it was misjudgements to be refuted, I'd go for it, even though I'm kind-of short on time. But it's mostly prejudice and hate-for-the-sake-of-it. I know that's rowing againt the flow, it's tiresome and gets you nowhere. (Edit: my actual point is that while I do know that there are many here that would actually appreciate my insights, as I'm a rather neutral and realist insider, knowing what the bulk of the responses I'll receive in return of such effort will be like, I just can't convince me to do that. Maybe I'm not modest enough to try and explain the reality in the face of belittling dismissals and ostinated misunderstandings.)

amckenna• 9 years ago

The author of the article doesn't represent all western views any more than you represent Turkey. However, given the fact that we have a chance to interact here (thanks Internet!) tell me/us what you would like me/us to know about your country that you feel is being seen incorrectly.

The best way to combat ignorance is through education.

bobosha• 9 years ago

sliding?

peregrix1• 9 years ago

Yeah, Turkey is sliding into dictatorship but Egypt is doing very well.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21709955-belatedly-and...

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/2170997...

Erdogan was "moderate" when "Western Democracies" was able to call a coup a coup and Syria wasn't a testing bed for weapons.

It looks they need a smokescreen for the blunder in Europe, Syria and ME in general and with his figure Erdo-guy is the best candidate. Oh "The Sultan", "The Barbar Turk is at the gates", "figthing with the poor Kurds", "journalist jailer", "coup was a theater" etc.

Did you really learn anything from the article about what changes in the constitution and what doesn't? According to the narrative Turkey was a "dictatorship" a year ago too, is a close "Yes" (or "No") in a referendum a typical political behavior of dictatorial politics, right?

Sorry. When the West reacts like this (and doesn't react to real dictators unless they piss to their lawn), it more and more looks like Western intellectual's main mission is to create a narrative to open a path for exploitation/military politics. God may have died but "Deus Vult" still lives.

Turkey is sliding into dictatorship

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