If Prisoners Ran Prisons

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/10/23/if-prisoners-ran-prisons#.xm20Sygvd

by iamjeff • 10 years ago

265 196 10 years ago

johnsea5• 10 years ago

Well, nothing to do with hackers, but if this

Immediately they are yelled at by officers to strip naked, get ‘nuts to butts,’ and after being searched they are kept naked for several minutes until they are issued some boxers...

is true. Boah, how can everybody yell at the 'bad behaviour' of Trump and Clinton and look away here?

smcl2• 10 years ago

I agree, it's pretty sick. I can see how this sort of behaviour can become normalised, hard to remove and in some cases part of what the public expect from the prison experience. Many people see prison as a place to be punished, so it's easy for them to rationalise any sort of demeaning or dehumanising treatment as part of the package - "well he/she should've thought about that before they broke the law..." etc

In addition if you're a politician you're not going to win votes by campaigning for better conditions in prisons, now matter how you spin it.

johnsea5• 10 years ago

Yes, but how is an inmate supposed to become 'better' in future if he (I assume this only happens to men) is treated this respectless? Maybe you are right with winning votes. But on the other hand I perceive the americans as quite human. And if voters (and politicians) want to reduce the likelyhood of inmates to slide back I think the conditions must be improved (if they really should be that bad - I somehow cannot believe this report, completly unthinkable in Europe (maybe we exagerate a bit towards the other end, don't know)

azernik• 10 years ago

In addition if you're a politician you're not going to win votes by campaigning for better conditions in prisons, now matter how you spin it.

This is the root cause, and the political/policy effects are a symptom. There are places where this kind of treatment would be considered a scandal, but American culture doesn't agree.

dimino• 10 years ago

I think we all pretty much know inmates are treated poorly, and while it is most certainly a tragedy, we are a) unable to meaningfully change their situations in the short or medium term and b) have more directly effecting issues that take priority.

Why is it that all the successful companies in the private prison industry are terrible for the inmates? The client is the state, and the state doesn't care about costs associated with caring for inmates, right?

Is there any way to turn that on its head? To... uh, "disrupt" some small part of this?

wccrawford• 10 years ago

I'm all for prison reform, but other than the bits where officers do demeaning things to the prisoners, this really just becomes a list of things that prisoners feel would make their lives more comfortable.

Well yeah, no shit. Of course they want it better in there. If they got all this, they'd eventually be complaining that they should have computers and playstations.

Prison isn't supposed to be torture (physically or mentally) but it's also not supposed to be better than poor people have it. If poor people can't be taken care of to the point they have these things (and I think they should!) then I don't think starting with the prisons is the right way to go.

johnsea5• 10 years ago

But one could start with the small things: "yelled at...". Totally unnecessary imho. Why do this?

throwawaycanada2• 10 years ago

I don't think poor people are regularly locked in cages with HIV positive serial rapists.

Avshalom4• 10 years ago

Right as "fucked" as the poor can be in this country prisoners have even less agency and are even more vulnerable to the abuses of the system they get thrown into.

wolfgke2• 10 years ago

If poor people can't be taken care of to the point they have these things (and I think they should!) then I don't think starting with the prisons is the right way to go.

If you really care about this, then you should advocate that poor people don't produce children anymore so that at least "born poor", that is a common cause of poverty, is mostly eliminated.

pbhjpbhj• 10 years ago

then you should advocate that poor people don't produce children anymore so that at least "born poor" //

That's a false conclusion. You could heavily tax the rich to ensure everyone [who had a child] had sufficient to live on and so no one would be "poor" (you'd have poorer, but not poor per se). There are probably further additional possible ways that the problem could be solved and hence further possible outcomes that the parent could advocate and maintain consistent logic.

williadc• 10 years ago

You're correct that most of these are asking for prison to be a more tolerable place to live. Making prison a rough experience should encourage inmates to avoid crimes which will send them back. The article's author contends that the current conditions in the prison where he serves his time re-enforce criminal behavior and empowers "gang recruiters, extortion, and other threats" by depriving prisoners. He has the advantage of seeing what happens each day, but has a sample-size issue in that he's only experienced a small number of prisons. I would be interested in seeing his proposals tested in a controlled studies. None of them seems difficult or expensive to implement.

dom02• 10 years ago

Making prison a rough experience should encourage inmates to avoid crimes which will send them back.

RoW actually shows that this basic approach does not work at all.

mmagin2• 10 years ago

One of the few charities (that I'm aware of) in this area: http://justdetention.org/

nknwn3• 10 years ago

In having served almost 10 years in prison for drugs. I can say that medium and maximum security prisons are often a breeding ground for killers, and dangerous people.

Young kids who have done something incredibly stupid usually end up in these places. They are then immediately put in a situation to fuck or fight. This behavior will often escalate to extreme violence or to be broken psychologically, then owned by other inmates, bought and sold like property. Can that kind of behavior be unlearned? I doubt it... I would argue that at best, people can only learn to do something better, but always lurking in the background.

This is only one of many of the bizarre insanities of prison life. I personally don't disagree with the idea of punishment or prison. I would however say that prisons are extremely dysfunctional.

throwawaycanada2• 10 years ago

As an outsider I always just assumed those who ran prisons and designed them wanted them to be set up that way.

TeMPOraL6• 10 years ago

On the other hand I always assumed it's due to short-term thinking and incentives misalignment. Incarceration is a quick way to quarantine criminals and fill the need for justice of the offended. A person who ends up in prison (especially the high-security one) is likely to be away for many, many years - at which point what happens when they're released is someone else's problem. Humans are good at dealing with distant consequences in the abstract, but extremely poor at it in practice. So prisons are what they are by default.

Of course there are other issues at play too. For instance, a prison can't be too nice, lest it turns into a free vocational school and people will find committing crimes and getting caught to be an excellent way to get education. Or another example - you can't really make prisoners do useful work for the society (as opposed to just rotting in their cells), because it disrupts the market economy and becomes a powerful force for administrators to threaten their local communities ("do X, or else I unleash my 300+ strong force of unpaid workers and drive you out of market").

The more I think about prisons, the more I see it's a very convoluted issue, and there isn't any obvious, simple solution.

kashkhan• 10 years ago

prison is inhuman punishment. it doesn't stop or correct crime. and in return causes huge social problems.

nknwn3• 10 years ago

You are right. Because these same people, are released in 5-10-20 years and are then someone's neighbor.

Rarely any job skills to speak of.

Often very little in the way of education or resources to improve.

So the end result 80-90% of the time is to resort to the familiar crowd and routine.

webkike• 10 years ago

For some things it is certainly important. If someone is a known murderer, what would you do? You have to section that person off somehow. Regardless of what you call that sectioning it is a prison.

eveningcoffee2• 10 years ago

I agree with you. Prison as punishment is senseless.

We have two options. We insulate the person indefinitely or we condition the person for possible return into the society.

My understanding is that we should only accept solitary confinement where the prisoner does not have any contact with other prisoners but has a constant concealing by professionals and does have other conditions to maintain its decency.

johnsea5• 10 years ago

I'm sorry.

What can (non-american) outsiders do to help fix/improve this situation (in American prisons)?

ars• 10 years ago

You probably can't do anything about the actual prison experience, but you can help the individuals both before, during and after.

There are organizations that try to keep people out of prison by giving them activities or trade training.

And there are organizations that try to help people find jobs after leaving prison.

You could find some you like and help them financially.

Another positive influence is the religious community, so you can help those as well. People with strong religious ties tend to have a much easier time joining their community after prison.

There are also some religious communities that try to reach people in prison, and you could help them.

eveningcoffee2• 10 years ago

I think (as non-american) that the best you can do is to try to convince your American friends (you may have to acquire them first) that the idea of the prison is not a punishment but isolation of the danger and reconditioning to the return back into the society.

My understanding is that the last one can not happen in open prisons but only in solitary confinement where a single prisoner does not have any contact with other prisoners but still has constant concealing by professionals and does have other conditions to maintain its decency.

honkhonkpants• 10 years ago

Nuke us.

coenhyde• 10 years ago

I call prison "criminal university". It's just fucking stupid.

We get a whole bunch of violent / profession criminals together so they can learn from each other and build their networks. Then brand them as criminals so they can't get a job when they come out, thus ensuring they reoffend. Oh and we incarcerate for non violent crimes, so entry level criminals have the opportunity to learn from the best and progress their career.

drdeadringer• 10 years ago

Is this similar to "go to the hospital to get sick"?

ythn• 10 years ago

I don't see how you can have a humane prison not be a criminal university. I mean, in the old days, they would just throw you in cell and leave you there for years. Your meals would come in through a slot in the door and you would poop and pee in a pot. No face-to-face interaction with other prisoners. No shared cells. No recreational time in open areas where you can form cliques. The only communication that happened between prisoners was via tapping or other coded acoustics.

Allowing prisoners to interact face to face in open and closed environments is going to introduce these extra complexities of prisoners "poisoning" other prisoners.

Red_Tarsius• 10 years ago

Thanks for your comment.

It seems that there are many unreported rapes in American prisons. When you read the real stories and how wardens don't care or enable such system, your faith in human nature is over. You realize how fucked up bureocrats are. If Americans – liberals and conservatives – truly cared about human rights they would have started a riot about such issues years ago. They set up a mass whining for the new president of US in less than 24 hours, people clearly don't care about the inhuman treatment of prisoners. Read the testimony of activist Stephen Donaldson. http://articles.latimes.com/1994-05-20/news/ls-60064_1_priso...

saulrh• 10 years ago

Same with cars, global climate change, and pollution. People only know how to respond to events.

danharaj5• 10 years ago

It's true. You have to look far outside of the system to find people who take prison abolition seriously. Anarchists, mostly.

NumberCruncher10• 10 years ago

>Young kids who have done something incredibly stupid
>They are then immediately put in a situation to fuck or fight.

IMHO this aspect of prison life is common knowledge. I wonder how incredibly stupid one has to be to risk getting jailed. And looking at the numbers that is not a marginal phenomenon.

rincebrain4• 10 years ago

A great many things can cause you to be party to something incredibly stupid - something mildly stupid escalating, doing something without full understanding of the consequences...

Even if you do grasp the risk at hand, other pressures can drive you to make stupid choices.

Regardless of how you got there, though, it should not be a given that you're going to come out of it worse than you went in.

matwood3• 10 years ago

Innocent people are commonly put in jail. Then you have judges who get kickbacks by putting people in jail. And yes, poorer people in particular, end up much often in the wrong place/wrong time.

We should start by getting rid of private, for profit prisons. Next we should actually make them safe places. I originally thought the headline was a joke because prisoners (gangs to be precise) already run prisons.

digler999• 10 years ago

how incredibly stupid one has to be

because literally everyone was raised in the same privileged home you were ? Nobody was abused or neglected and not taught right from wrong ? everyone is literally just like you ?

chongli• 10 years ago

I've never been to prison but when I read this article I feel despondent. Here are people asking for some really tiny, minor things. The whole argument is predicated on the idea that prison is about rehabilitation. It's not. Prison is about destroying people. Punishing them for having the audacity to exist after revealing the fact that their identity does not fit the dominant narrative.

I am fundamentally opposed to prison in all but the most extreme cases. I also happen to believe a bunch of other things that would also see me branded as a radical by society, but I digress. Prison is fundamentally destructive as an institution. It is slavery by another name and it must be dismantled, though I don't know how we begin the process.

zanny• 10 years ago

though I don't know how we begin the process.

Its political, and at least in the US, it traces its roots back to corruption and how unrepresentative the US government is of its citizens.

If you want to fix almost all societal problems, you first need a system of government that fears and respects its people. I don't care which permutation of state you pick, but if you want a government to care what you say, it has to care about its people.

Most countries have that problem. Its less overbearing because most European states have better implementations of near the same parliamentary system, but even those governments are often too centralized and too easily corrupted, and that breeds an unrepresentative state.

Making a government that acts in the will of its people is absolutely step one to fixing the problems it causes. Then you just need to persuade the people and thus the representatives to change it.

Terr_• 10 years ago

Punishing them for having the audacity to exist after revealing the fact that their identity does not fit the dominant narrative.

So under that sweeping generalization, you consider rape and murder equivalent to, say, coming out as homosexual??

Reform is necessary, but you can't just boil everything down into apologetics of "institutional discrimination against the morally-impaired."

sdenton4• 10 years ago

As Bryan Stevenson says, a person is more than the worst mistake they've made. The inhumanity of American prisons is reprehensible, and limits the potential of our most vulnerable populations. Imagine if Obama has been imprisoned for smoking a joint in his really years. Is that moment of indiscretion worth voiding a whole life?

For those interested in keeping up with our contributing to the effort to fix the US prison system, please check out the Ella Baker center, http://ellabakercenter.org. Started by Van Jones twenty years ago, they've been on the forefront of resisting unnecessary prison expansions, reducing the rate at which juveniles are put in prison, and more.

dorfsmay• 10 years ago

Has temporary imprisonment ever been shown to have a positive impact?

tn13• 10 years ago

I really don't have words for this.

The problem is we the people. We treat anyone in prison or with a government label of felon, sex offender etc. as less than human being. I can't blame the prison university.

wuschel• 10 years ago

Thanks for sharing this. I would be interested to read more about it. People like who have not been counting their years migh have some imagination, but imagination does not replace experience. Perhaps you should make a write up of your time and observations.

_audakel2• 10 years ago

so sad. im glad that in the age of the internet stories like this can come out and reach many people. I just hope that the next generation of leaders who grew up on the internet exposed to many differing ideas will have the courage/determination to find real solustions fix problems like this.

perfmode• 10 years ago

If you find this topic interesting, I would recommend that you check out the documentary "13th" on Netflix:

https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741

Barraketh• 10 years ago

I wonder why there are no private non-profit prisons.

There are many states that allow private prisons. There have been multiple articles about how awful these prisons are. Why not try to open a non-profit prison where gov't funds are supplemented with donations and focusing on rehabilitation and humane living conditions. Then we both improve the lives of some inmates, and can more effectively compare outcomes.

nickpsecurity• 10 years ago

Best idea I've seen on the thread. There's corruption to overcome but the non-profit could similarly bribe the politicians. It's worth someone trying.

danieltillett7• 10 years ago

Because the amount available per prisioner per day is so low that a non-profit prison could not do much better. It is not like the for-profit prisions are running on profit margins of 50%.

steveax• 10 years ago

~12.5% margin for CCA in 2015 [1]. I suspect that $227M could manage to pay for bringing some fresh produce into the commissary.

Edit: not to mention the $890K they spent on lobbying.

[1] http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/IROL/11/117983/201...

verbify2• 10 years ago

That's not the point. The margins could be low. But it would still have two effects:

* Prisoners would be treated better

* Whatever small profits could be pumped into rehabilitation

Currently for-profit prisons have perverse incentives, like claiming prisoners have behaved badly and therefore extending their sentences.

fny2• 10 years ago

Since when was a non profit supposed to make a profit?! Who cares how low the margins are fit as long as it's sustainable.

CalChris• 10 years ago

Cost of prison per prisoner per year:

$168,000

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/nyregion/citys-annual-c...

Average in the US:

$31,000

https://www.vera.org/publications/the-price-of-prisons-what-...

This isn't about justice. It's about prison guard jobs. It's about welfare.

StanislavPetrov• 10 years ago

It's not just about welfare, its also about political power. For example, New York houses tens of thousands of prisoners from New York City in various upstate prison towns. The population of these prisoners is counted towards the populations of these upstate towns, even though the prisoners cannot vote and aren't from that area. For purposes of gerrymandering, funding, and anything else related to population these prisoners are literally political ammunition. This added clout puts representatives in the statehouse that exist only to flood the prisons with more prisoners, completely beholden to prison guard unions and other prison-related industries. They spend their time blocking any sort of logical criminal reform, marijuana legalization, or anything else that would slow the steady stream of prisoners. Its a corrupt system to the core.

http://www.demos.org/publication/census-count-and-prisoners-...

mchannon• 10 years ago

Prison gerrymandering has been reformed in a few places, particularly New York. Due to reforms passed in 2010, prisoners are now counted toward their home districts.

California has likewise passed a law to discontinue the process there by 2020.

For much of the rest of the country, this is still a problem.

http://www.prisonersofthecensus.org/newyork.html

sickbeard• 10 years ago

I don't see anyone opening their homes to let rapists and murderers come to live there. There is a reason why many people are in prison.

prawn• 10 years ago

If they were offered $150k+ to house and feed them, some might consider it!

Taek• 10 years ago

There seems to be a pretty decisive anti-prison circle jerk in this thread. It's a trend that is very common among progressives, common enough that I think we could do something about it.

Does anyone want to say things in support of prison? If we revamp the prison system, what things should we keep? What do prisons do right?

And, what are the next steps for a community willing to invest in changes to our criminal management? How do we make a difference?

totalZero• 10 years ago

Maybe there's a lesson in the fact that few here are willing to support prisons as an industry....it's not very easy to defend this particular system.

allendoerfer• 10 years ago

Prisons should basically be a mix between a school and a mental institution. If you are a loser and fucked up, your personal issues should be treated and you should get into a position of not being a loser any more (e.g. get a regular degree, apprenticeship, on which it does not say "done in prison"). You should have to stand up every day and have a normal workday to get used to that.

You should have to stay there for as long as you are a threat to society or as long as your situation has not changed and it is likely that you will commit the crime again.

So everything that is already that should be kept, everything else we can get rid of. I would personally say, start with socializing them again, then we have an incentive to reduce prison populations by keeping people out, who do not belong there in the first place. As always, when I make this comments I am a hopeless optimist: Do not worry, it is already happening.

Also something to cheer you up, America: Where do you think ISIS comes from? If you look for a group of losers, just turn to your local (on HN often praised) European prison.

fny2• 10 years ago

I don't think people here is anti-prison, just that they disagree with how prisons fail to operate as correctional/rehabilitative facilities and instead produce more hardened criminals.

danieltillett7• 10 years ago

There should be two types of prisons; one for people that will be released one day and one for people that will never be released. The never-to-be-released ones can be the nastist hellholes (if the aim is punishment), but the to-be-released ones need to concentrate on making sure that the prisioners are less likely to offend again once released.

I have often thought the solution to the reoffending problem is to fill the prisioners day with heaps of novel activities so that each day is spent learning new things (doesn't really matter what as long as it is not criminal). The aim would be that by the time the prisioner has finished their sentence their old life and self will be forgotten. The human brain only has so much capacity and if you fill it with enough novelty you will overwrite all the old bad information and behaviours.

VR has the ability to make this cheap and effective.

mmagin2• 10 years ago

The never-to-be-released ones can be the nastist hellholes (if the aim is punishment)

I object. They're still human, and as they have been deprived of their freedom, we (society) have been entrusted with caring for them. Even the death penalty (quite flawed as it is) may be better in some sense, morally, than "the nastiest hellholes".

danieltillett7• 10 years ago

I was not arguing for making the never-to-be-released prisons hellhole, just that they are the only prisons you can inflict punishment. Punishing those people that you are going to release is stupid beyond imagination.

undersuit• 10 years ago

So what happens when you end up in the wrong prison? What happens if you spend 50 years in the hellhole and then are proven innocent?

The aim would be that by the time the prisioner has finished their sentence their old life and self will be forgotten.

I know you're talking about the nice prison here, but if you hold that belief then what happens to the innocent person who has had 50 years of hell?

danieltillett7• 10 years ago

I am not suggesting that the never-to-be-released prison should be a hellhole, just that it is the only one that can be a hellhole. Treating prisoners that you will release badly is totally stupid.

Your argument is a very good one why no prison should ever be a hellhole because there are no prisoners that certain to be in the never-to-be-released category.

joggery• 10 years ago

Prisons are dysfunctional and cost too much. Why isn't GPS-tagging, curfew and public record sufficient to protect society?

Reform could only be somewhere where >90% people are non-criminal e.g. army, monastery

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect

transfire• 10 years ago

In 100 years or so people will look back at our prisons like we now look back on the Bastille.

verbify2• 10 years ago

I look at them now with horror - no need to wait 100 years.

DominikR• 10 years ago

The notion that there should be no prisons at all is nuts in my view, there must be a way for people to protect themselves from others who repeatedly act violently.

But the fact that prisoners frequently have to face rape is sick and shows how dysfunctional the current system is. I even read some time ago an article that stated that the US is the only country in the world where more men than women are raped. (due to the fact that so many men are raped in prison)

What I personally believe would be a good way to treat this issue is to have prisoners work in the private sector while their payment will largely be used to pay for prison and to repay their victims for the damage they have caused them. The prisoner is set free once he has paid for all damages. (or as much as is reasonably possible)

Prisons will have an incentive to make sure that their prisoners earn as much as possible (trainings and education), victims will receive payments for damages and the prisoners themselves will have an incentive to get out of prison as soon as possible. Of course this can't be done with every type of felony and there's the question if damages are always accurate.

Also with this approach some types of felonies cannot be punished. One example would be drug abuse. You are only harming yourself and since no third party can claim damages it also would not be punished. (this alone would hugely reduce prison population)

You could even make the case that selling drugs would be legalised since there's clearly a buyer willing to buy and consume it who's not hurting any third parties directly by his choice.

I believe it is more reasonable to have prison sentences reflect the damage caused instead of ideology and prison life be more about making it up to the victims (as far as it is possible) instead of creating the most nasty, brutal place imaginable and having people suffer there.

It's probably also a better lesson for an offender to have to repay someone for destroying his car than subjecting him to repeated rapes which will likely break him psychologically.

joshfraser• 10 years ago

I spent my afternoon hanging out with an ex-con and entrepreneur I met through Defy Ventures. They're a great organization that are giving second chances to the incarcerated. If you're looking for a practical way to make a difference, check out https://defyventures.org and sign up as a mentor. If you live in the bay area, they have a day trip to Avenal State Prison coming up next month and are looking for volunteers to help as business coaches.

Today I asked this entrepreneur for his perspective on what needs to change in our judicial system. Not surprisingly, he gave me a long list of things that are broken, including the corrupting influence of money which incentivizes tough laws and full prisons. And the money which allows people with money to walk away with a slap on the wrist for committing the exact same crime that put him away for years.

When he was released, he was scared to leave prison. He shared how the free world is terrifying to those who've been incarcerated for years. He'd been locked up in high school and never had a chance to get a proper education. He couldn't find anyone to hire him. He couldn't find anyone who'd even rent him an apartment with a felony on his record. The only people who reached out to him were his old gang members. Imagine spending the majority of your life behind bars and then being thrown into a world with smart phones and the internet -- neither of which existed when you were locked up.

Many of us in this community agree on how unfair the judicial system is in America. Many of us believe in the concept of second chances and redemption. And many of us (myself included) could do a better job at demonstrating that belief with our actions.

jstoiko• 10 years ago

One thing that kills me about prisons is that they achieve exactly the opposite of what they are supposed to be achieving. They add more psychological trauma, they create more anger and they force people to focus on what they've done in the past instead of what they could be doing different in the future.

The problem is that there are always more important things to worry about in our society than reforming prisons. Not much has changed since prisons have been invented, really. Recidivism is unacceptably high. The solution is not more discipline. It's more respect, more compassion, more dignity, more learning, and more showing that life doing other things is as rewarding if not more than doing the things that lead to prison.

jlebrech• 10 years ago

let the prisoners run the entire prison but have the guards monitor them at all times.

like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

jpatokal• 10 years ago

What I find amazing here is the pathetic modesty of all the requests. It's all about selling onion powder in the commissary or granting model prisoners the right to wear non-white shirts, not (say) the abuse of plea bargaining or the ludicrous length of mandatory sentences.

mehwoot• 10 years ago

the abuse of plea bargaining or the ludicrous length of mandatory sentences.

I don't think those really have to do directly with prisons though. It's a related topic.

TH3R3LL1K• 10 years ago

Prisoners should be measured. The same way that some companies have performance measurements for its employees, prisons should have behavioural measurement for the prisoners. If the behaviour improves based on a certain grade, then the prisoners get rewarded, otherwise they get punished

Vintila• 10 years ago

How about measuring the prison instead, reform more crooks, the guards get a pay bonus. However, knowing how incentive schemes are normally gamed, they will probably resort to lobotomising the inmates.

rand005• 10 years ago

Related: The Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37904263

If somebody has a drug problem we treat their addiction, if they are aggressive we provide anger management, if they have got money problems we give them debt counselling. So we try to remove whatever it was that caused the crime. The inmate himself or herself must be willing to change but our method has been very effective. Over the last 10 years, our work has improved more and more.
Fewer than 10% then return to prison after their release. In England and Wales, and in the United States, roughly half of those serving short sentences reoffend within two years, and the figure is often higher for young adults.

If Prisoners Ran Prisons

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