Microsoft uses malware tactics to foist Windows 10 on more PCs

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/gadgets-on-the-go/microsoft-uses-malware-tactics-to-foist-windows-10-on-more-pcs-20160524-gp355z.html

by avckp • 10 years ago

82 145 10 years ago

smh.com.au

zxcvcxz7• 10 years ago

Windows 10 slows down my whole PC and won't let me downgrade. I was forced to move to Linux or deal with constant lag from all forms of input.

Can't believe I wasted my time putting up with the lag to fix my wifi so I could install updates.

mikestew2• 10 years ago

I'm seeing this story in several places, so I'm going to go with the smoke==fire assessment, but can anyone confirm? I hate to pull the [citation needed] card, but this sounds beneath even the Microsoft of the 90s. And if it's true? OMG, today's "open source, and Linux, and ponies!" Microsoft is demonstrating worse behavior than the "convicted abusive monopolist" Microsoft, IMO.

plushpuffin4• 10 years ago

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3095675

This notification means your Windows 10 upgrade will occur at the time indicated, unless you select either Upgrade now or “Click here to change upgrade schedule or cancel scheduled upgrade”. If you click on OK or on the red “X”, you’re all set for the upgrade and there is nothing further to do.

mikestew2• 10 years ago

Wow, from their very own docs, huh? I was never a huge fan of some of Microsoft's patterns even when I worked there, but this is a new low in my eyes.

nilliams• 10 years ago

Unbelievable, thanks for sharing. I'll be looking out for this dialog on my old Win laptop now that has been nagging me for forever (I don't believe for a second it will run Win 10 well).

kstenerud• 10 years ago

I just witnessed it happen on my father's PC last week. It's even worse than what they're reporting here.

Basically, it brought up a window with a countdown saying that an "update" (won't say what) is scheduled to run in 4 hours. I had the option of changing the update to happen tomorrow, the day after, or the day after that. No close gadget. No opt-out. No alternative. Killing the window via task manager just caused it to relaunch. Cutting the power just made the update run when it restarted. I'd already backed everything up, so I wiped and reinstalled windows 7, and then used Never10 to hopefully stop that shit in future.

heywire8• 10 years ago

Honest question, why not just run Windows 10? I find that on older hardware it runs better than Windows 7.

uremog• 10 years ago

I had removed all the Win10 upgrade files and registry keys, etc from my box at one point, yet somehow - probably during an update - the files have come back. It is now showing me that pop-up again.

zxcvcxz7• 10 years ago

Yeah I had to fix my fathers friends computer because his wifi didn't work after the upgrade (just needed to plug into ethernet and download the wifi driver). He specifically said he closed the update window.

Not only is this evil but it's really unprofessional and not what I expect from a company like Microsoft. Forcing the update is one thing, but breaking thousands of machines?? And how could they really not see what was going to happen? What is happening up at MS HQ?

And all the guy does is look at porn and browse facebook, literally that's all he does with his laptop, he would be better off with Linux.

I'm glad I don't have to deal with Windows anymore. Once you switch to Linux/Unix and experience a simple OS that stays the hell out of the way using Windows just feels like a chore. Why can't Microsoft make Windows good?

dimino20• 10 years ago

Microsoft is trying to unify as many devices as possible, in an effort to secure Windows around the world.

Too many people are running insecure versions of Windows, and frankly I'd rather break them (the small percentage that they are) than have that many botnets out there, sending spam, breaking bitcoin consensus, and all kinds of other nefarious things.

0x04• 10 years ago

What's insecure about Windows 7? It still receives security updates? In 5 years time, will you consider a fully patched Windows 10 to be an "insecure version of Windows" too? Why not? Did you consider Windows 7 insecure when it was first released?

arm• 10 years ago

“Too many people are running insecure versions of Windows, and frankly I'd rather break them”

Seriously? I think this old Hacker News comment thread¹ does a good job of covering all the points outlining why that’s a bad idea. Also, do you seriously think that upgrading their OS will stop users from continuing to download and install malware?

――――――

¹ — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11638048

buckbova• 10 years ago

Happened to my folks.

I had to fix the network issues they had connecting from win10 to win7. Took all day. Just didn't want to work.

I set the other machines to never upgrade using this tool:

https://www.grc.com/never10.htm

Probably the same as the reg hack others post about.

tajen• 10 years ago

I can't assess for truth, but I reckon the sneaky upgrade of Win10 users (those who gave refused until now) is becoming a running joke on 9Gag. And popularity is important when the European commission sets the fines. Just saying.

benbenolson• 10 years ago

Use Linux. Problem solved.

Of course, if you have special needs (games, proprietary Windows-only software, etc.), you might have to run Windows. My advice would be to simply use an Enterprise version of Windows 7, which doesn't "upgrade" you automatically, and work on moving away from any Microsoft platforms as quickly as possible.

EpicEng• 10 years ago

problem solved

And perhaps many new problems introduced (as you point out), so... no, not really.

zxcvcxz7• 10 years ago

Linux is a viable option for many people. A good portion of people literally only use a web browser.

Just saw a whole school switch to ChromeOS.

LnxPrgr3• 10 years ago

Recently had a project with a C++-on-Linux deliverable. I developed on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS, the most recent LTS at the time. Someone else tested on 16.04 LTS, which came out between me finishing development and him testing. Code compiled and failed to link until we built libcurlpp from source.

In short, Ubuntu's been shipping a broken libcurlpp for something like a year. Further research tells me that's not the only package affected, and GCC 5 has generally made life entertaining.

I'm also running 16.04 on a Raspberry Pi, and oh boy is that fun! An even less tested architecture!

* Chromium segfaults on startup, and appears to have been doing so for about a year. Ubuntu continues to package completely broken updates occasionally.

* Most audio from Firefox goes through what I've been calling the noisy Satan filter.

* Initially, all programs segfaulted in ld.so when running in GDB. Currently, it spits out a couple errors and continues.

* nm-applet reliably segfaults a few minutes after starting.

* For some unknown reason, wlan0 has 7 global IPv6 addresses and counting.

But at least it doesn't update without asking. I suppose there's that!

Edit: Not that I think what Microsoft is doing is OK. Just think "just use Linux" often causes more problems than it solves, especially for people who just want Word and Facebook to work.

ensiferum• 10 years ago

I'm just waiting for the day when Microsoft moves on to subscription based service. Basically I'm assuming that they want their win10 user base high enough and then one day they say "we changed our licensing policy to subscription based" and then everyone has no choice but to pay $20 or whatever every month or be locked out from their machines. There's probably some small print in the win10 EULA that conveniently allows them to move onto this model under the ruse of "rolling releases"

B1FF_PSUVM• 10 years ago

Probably just for the business users.

"Less evil than Oracle! And cheaper!"

Heady days.

spriggan32• 10 years ago

I'm just waiting for the day when Microsoft moves on to subscription based service.

You're probably right, it's probably the future of Windows. Adobe moved to a subscription based service, users hated it yet numbers don't lie, Adobe made tons of money with that move.

daveguy• 10 years ago

I expect they won't do that until Win10 is an established rolling release OS. I also expect they will wait until after Windows 7 is no longer supported (2020) and Win10 has over 50% share. Also, I bet it will be rolled into Office365 subscription. People who have Office365 get recommended and security updates for Win10 for FREE! Such a good deal! You get office, and 1TB online storage for just $10/month!

If they can convert 50% of Win10 users (.625/1.25 billion) to subscription that's $6.25 billion / month or $75 billion / year. Their yearly revenue for 2015 was $93.6 billion. With a billion people (their stated goal for Win10) on a subscription model for $12/mo that is +50% yearly revenue -- enormous growth for such a large company. I do not doubt that is the end goal.

EDIT: "current count" of 1.25 billion windows machines was an estimate by business insider from 2011.

cm21876• 10 years ago

I understand the reason the upgrade is free is to rather move to an ad supported service.

8rian• 10 years ago

Left to their own devices, people would never upgrade. This is a security risk for MS. (Win 8 support ends January 2018). Chrome was championed for auto updating, and now all browsers do the same. Web apps can auto update whenever they want. Mobile apps auto update. Why shouldn't operating systems?

mistermann• 10 years ago

One reason I can think of, and the reason I'm staying on Win7 as long as possible - Windows 10 installs updates and reboots (killing all open windows, unsaved documents, browser tabs, etc) without asking for permission to do so. This outrages me.

ourmandave2• 10 years ago

I took screen shots with my phone while the upgrade ran so I can participate in the class action lawsuit that will never happen.

They're a bit blurry because I was using the outrage filter.

I suppose the settlement would be a free one-month trial of MS cloud services. And at the end of the month they'd auto upgrade you to the highest cost tier.

_RPM2• 10 years ago

I'm an Android user, and I have disabled auto updating, so I'm not sure my apps auto update.

fluxsauce• 10 years ago

There's a difference between security and stability updates and major version changes.

I have no compelling reason to upgrade my Windows 7 machine to Windows 10; 7 performs all the tasks I need it to. I do not trust the privacy changes in Windows 10, which is more reason for me not to upgrade.

I've disabled the Windows 10 upgrade path, but otherwise keep it up-to-date on all patches.

What do I do when Windows 7 support ends? I'll cross that bridge when I get to it... but that bridge won't be to Windows 10.

_RPM2• 10 years ago

I agree with your statements about Windows 10. In my case, I don't use my Windows laptop for day to day anymore. It also told me that Windows 10 is not optional and it will happen next week and there is nothing I can do about it. It sits connected to my TV via HDMI cable only to stream DRM related content such ad HBO Go, Netflix, etc.

At least once a week, it takes about 30 minutes to apply updates. Where my computer would restart several times.

danjayh• 10 years ago

Chrome has made some pretty major, breaking changes due to auto-updates. I opened Chrome one day to find that my VPN to work would no longer function due to sweeping changes in extension permissions. I would agree with the parent that Chrome's behavior is very similar to what MS is doing now, and probably for similar reasons, except that MS is actually giving warning before they do it. That doesn't make it any more pleasant, but it still will result in a more secure infrastructure.

gshulegaard• 10 years ago

Mobile apps autoupdate by default, there's a difference between that and being forced to auto update. Mobile apps are also usually sandboxed heavily (more so on iOS than Android as I understand it...but I am not a mobile dev).

In my mind, auto updating was not one of the most attractive features of Chrome. In fact, auto updating for Chrome was one of the reasons I and some others I know stayed away from it for so long.

Web apps aren't binary blobs that users have to download and implicitly trust to not do nefarious things to their system. In fact, most browsers sandbox web pages to a large degree. Not to mention it's an entirely different architecture...with its own challenges.

Operating Systems run on hardware ostensibly owned by individuals (although this is constantly being diminished by corporate practices). But average Joe running Win 8 is not a security risk for MS...it is a security risk for average Joe. Backwards support is a huge cost for software companies in general...so I think the auto updating is not so much about protecting you or I, it's about protecting Microsoft's bottom line. And using nefarious tactics to force and trick people into upgrading just underscores this point. It's taking (some) control of "your" system away from you and giving it to Microsoft. Not to mention that OS's are very close to hardware (about as close to hardware as software can be).

Basically...there are tons of reasons why OS's are not mobile apps, desktops apps (like browsers), etc. and shouldn't just be auto-updated with whatever Microsoft decides to send down to your machine on a whim.

CaptSpify3• 10 years ago

Because it breaks shit?

It is true that it's a security risk, but instead of forcing something that people clearly do not want, why not make something that they do want. Make a product they want to upgrade to.

Everyone is framing this like it's all for the user's benefit, but lets tell it like it is: It's a huge money-grab for MS that happens to have small benefits to users.

cookiecaper7• 10 years ago

It is true that it's a security risk, but instead of forcing something that people clearly do not want, why not make something that they do want. Make a product they want to upgrade to.

Two things. First, people want their computers to be secure. Most users do not seem to understand that keeping your system patched is a prerequisite to remaining secure, and those people have to be dragged kicking and screaming into running updates, which is why Windows 10 has gotten so aggressive about enforcing it. If someone gets exploited through a hole in Windows, it comes back to haunt MS; they learned that well and good in the Windows 98 days, and they learned that users will never install updates without being forced to do so in the XP days.

Second, the kind of people who are afraid to install security patches cannot be enticed by any new program or UI modification. They have an defensive dislike of computers. They just want it to stay the same forever, and even if you release new versions that are identical at the UI level, people still won't upgrade to them because they're afraid it'll "break shit", as you succinctly put it.

End users may not like MS's aggression about updates but it is actually sensible for 99% of the userbase out there. MS's problems are unique among desktop OS vendors because of the wide and varied audience that relies on them to provide a good general-purpose OS.

It's reasonable that power users would resent MS's update policies, but MS does not have the luxury of tuning their release policy for the power user. Power users should be using not-Windows.

jacquesm2• 10 years ago

Because the decision what operating system to run and what version is one that should not be forced, 'consent' and all that.

marssaxman3• 10 years ago

Because it's not their damn hardware.

My computer, my rules.

plushpuffin4• 10 years ago

To further your Chrome analogy, this particular browser update breaks some peoples' favorite sites, rearranges the UI they've grown comfortable with (but inconsistently), displays ads next to the navigation bar, includes a built-in unique advertising id, pushes sponsored extensions on users, deliberately makes it as hard as possible to change the default search engine (and periodically reverts to the default anyway), and is the last update they can choose to decline, after which all future updates will be forced on them, closing all tabs and restarting the browser whenever it feels like it.

Oh, and also, their choice to decline this particular update is being actively subverted using dark patterns to try to trick them into upgrading.

ivank• 10 years ago

Windows 8.1 will have security updates until January 10, 2023: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

"6. What is the difference between Mainstream Support, Extended Support" https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle#gp/lifePolicy

bbarn• 10 years ago

I agree with this viewpoint, but it's not popular with this crowd for obvious reasons (hence your downvotes). I think there's a bit of a double edged sword here. People don't want to upgrade, but want a vendor to provide updates and protection for a long time with OS's. This is the SaaS/webapp model moving to the OS, because big version number upgrades have always sucked for all software - not just OS's.

Where else do people expect a single anonymous purchase of around a hundred dollars to last them for 5+ years with a vendor constantly making improvements to it?

It's a good upgrade, it's free, and people better get used to it. It's a good choice for most people, so unless you feel like compiling your own OS, it's gonna be stuff like this, chromeOS, or buying hardware/OS as a single package (apple).

Yes, plenty of us on here are hackers, or "special users" that might not think it's a good choice, but for the bulk of windows 7, and 8 users this is a good path and their experience will improve with it.

khedoros4• 10 years ago

Chrome was championed for auto updating, and now all browsers do the same.

And they slowly ruin the UI and introduce incompatibilities with other software that I'd like to use. It's why I'm in Pale Moon instead of Firefox or Chrome right now.

Web apps can auto update whenever they want.

Are you saying this is a positive attribute of web apps? I suppose it is, from the development side. From the user's perspective, it's one of the things I hate the most about web apps.

Mobile apps auto update.

Often removing features I like and adding ads or features that I don't, and chewing up my system resources while they do it. I've got auto-updates disabled for most apps on my phone, and I read the changelog before manually updating them. Exceptions: financial apps, e-mail, encryption, and other sensitive pieces of software. I'm not insane...I just don't like things changing out from under me with little-to-no warning.

pygy_• 10 years ago

My in-law's laptop "upgraded to Win 10 all by itself" last week (that's how they described it), and I can only suppose that one of them closed the nagging pop up, unknowingly triggering the update.

After rebooting, neither the keyboard nor the trackpad would work. I had a spare USB keyboard (no mouse), and I managed to delete the faulty drivers, which were replaced on reboot by valid ones (the bad drivers were reported as 'up to date', so updating wouldn't do it).

Disabling all the spyware features with only a keyboard during the post-install setup wasn't fun. Thankfully, the device manager is still his old Win95 self, and I could easily navigate through it even though I haven't owned a Windows machine since XP.

I learned after the fact that refusing the User Agreement would revert to the previous version of the OS. I wish I had known that before finalizing the impromptu upgrade.

serge2k• 10 years ago

For probably the first time I understand why forum/reddit mods turn to those "megathreads"

Do we need a new story about this every day. ugh.

Nullabillity• 10 years ago

Yes, until Microsoft finally ends this madness?

rhizome2• 10 years ago

This is essentially an entire feature of the updater. Imagine the meetings and project management involved.

zxcvcxz7• 10 years ago

There are MS employees right here on HN, I wish some of them would chime in with their thoughts on this whole debacle. I imagine most of the employees were kept in the dark about this too, as the nature of MS/proprietary software is secretive and sometimes considered abusive to the employee. Likely they've signed non-disclosure agreements and could lose their jobs for giving an honest assessment of what they think about their employer.

rhizome2• 10 years ago

Yeah, I know that worker bees are always the last to know the big picture, but someone somewhere had to make the "X" violate Demeter. Now, there's an argument to be made that the close button is only for the notification that something is going to happen, but come on. Obviously they didn't focus group this.

spriggan32• 10 years ago

The guys at MSFT just don't give a fuck... I wonder what are their plans with W10 and the next versions. It seems it is mandatory for them that everybody moves to W10, the question is why ? what is MSFT strategy for the next 5/10 years when it comes to Windows ? A closed system like the Xbox ?

niftich• 10 years ago

To get Microsoft-owned media content in front of more eyeballs. This is what Google (indirectly) did with Android, and what Yahoo wish it could do to shore up its declining share of consumers of its content.

rfurlan• 10 years ago

A simple guide for life: (1) Gather information (e.g. read the screen) (2) Think about it (3) Act accordingly

5ilv3r6• 10 years ago

We live in an age of information overload.

Yetanfou• 10 years ago

I just restored one of my neighbour's computers to life after it 'suddenly stopped working, it only shows a black screen with a mouse pointer'. The last thing the thing - which runs Windows 7 - had done was try to install KB3035583, the 'get Windows 10 now or die trying' version. It died.

After restoring Windows' messed-up intestines the machine booted up again. I'd removed all traces of KB3035583 in the hope that this neighbour - a farmer's wife in her 60s - would not be bothered again, nor tricked into 'upgrading'. Being the wise person I am I decided to keep the machine in quarantine for another day, just to make sure Microsoft would not come up with yet another way to foist this miscarriage of an operating system onto hapless users' machines. And, lo and behold, the next day I was greeted by yet another 'update', also summarily hidden and scrubbed, but still... I do these people a favour in helping them with technical stuff, but I don't want to become a full-time guardian. If this keeps up I'll just put some form of Linux on the thing and be done with it, all she uses it for is some light web browsing and mail-related stuff anyway.

To paraphrase a well-known quote, the harder Microsoft pushes, the more users will slip through their fingers and move to better pasture. That they don't realise this is something of a mystery to me.

x1798DE• 10 years ago

If this keeps up I'll just put some form of Linux on the thing and be done with it, all she uses it for is some light web browsing and mail-related stuff anyway.

Why wait?

unprepare• 10 years ago

gwx control panel will disable all the upgrade crap. I've used it on a few machines with good results.

http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/

thedudemabry• 10 years ago

I thought I was the only one! My gaming PC hooked up to our living room TV has nagged about the upgrade for months, and I dutifully closed the popup window each time I saw it. About two weeks ago, I turned on the TV to find a new login screen and noticed that my remote keyboard and mouse daemon had stopped. All in all, Win10 has been just fine, but I had no idea how it managed to install itself without my direct approval.

ksk• 10 years ago

Can anything damage large companies' reputation irreversibly these days? Whether is Microsoft forcing "upgrades" on PCs or Apple forcing iOS updates with their constant popups (which BTW you can avoid by using a proxy file) or their planned OSX obsolescence. And Google being a web company is free to muck up the UI, tie unrelated products together or discontinue services without any recourse since they're not client applications. Most large software companies' practices seem abusive to me. "We take security seriously" - after they've just been hacked or "We take privacy very seriously" - after they've just handed over user data for some ad cash, etc.

avckp• 10 years ago

The side effects: "I live in the Central African bush. We pay for slow satellite internet (per MB d/l). Just ONE of our computers has secretly d/l'ed 6GB for Windows 10. We track & coordinate anti-poaching rangers in the field with these PC's + GPS. F* You Microsoft!" https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/4mcdon/i_live_i...

Microsoft uses malware tactics to foist Windows 10 on more PCs

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