Should Prostitution Be a Crime?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/magazine/should-prostitution-be-a-crime.html?_r=0

by jseliger • 10 years ago

164 309 10 years ago

Sumaso• 10 years ago

"Members of the human rights group in Norway and Sweden resigned en masse, saying the organization’s goal should be to end demand for prostitution, not condone it."

How would you ever set about trying to remove the demand for prostitution?

Shivetya• 10 years ago

Well many municipalities go after the johns, with fines, jail time, and publicly shaming them. Just step up the pressure but it just goes underground.

While there are severe issues with underage involuntary prostitution I think that legalizing prostitution with a proper legal framework and such to insure the safety of said workers would actually reduce the occurrences of underage prostitution. It is one industry that would need to regulation, basically medical certification that they have no communicable diseases, know how to protect themselves from the same, and are not being forced into the industry by a pimp. If anything I can see having pimps sidelined by professional management groups.

The simple fact is, it does not harm any adult who voluntarily engage is such activity and therefor has no reason to be illegal.

intopieces• 10 years ago

The simple fact is, it does not harm any adult who voluntarily engages in such activity and therefore has no reason to be illegal.

This is not accurate. There are many adults who voluntarily engage in prostitution and are harmed. They are assaulted, robbed, raped and have little legal recourse. The fact that sex workers are harmed regularly is precisely why it should be legal.

johnchristopher• 10 years ago

The problem is not so much to remove the demand for prostitution but to remove the human trafficking, exploitation and extortion that is rampant in this business.

edit: the country I live in tolerate prostitution and neither prostitutes, neither customers are committing crimes. But there is still a lot of criminal activities related to prostitution.

WWKong4• 10 years ago

By enabling social harmony, high quality of life, formation of families, jobs etc. Won't eliminate demand but maybe significantly reduce it.

maaku3• 10 years ago

I think you (or the people you are describing) are bringing a lot of unjustified assumptions to the table regarding why people make use of prostitution.

atmosx5• 10 years ago

You would be amazed if you knew the amount of people who consider a high quality standard the existence of prostitutes both high and low profile.

Also, this weird notion that prostitutes clientele are not family men... Where did this came from?! I would say that it's predominantly married, family-men (whatever that is).

As another commentator said, you're making too many, extremely naive assumptions about a complex topic.

Mtinie• 10 years ago

"Happy" and economically well-off patrons will disagree with your assessment.

makomk2• 10 years ago

By making it as difficult and dangerous as possible for everyone involved. For example, Sweden - which is generally used as the model example of this approach by those who support it - criminalized people who paid for sex and landlords who knowingly continued to rent to women who had sex for money, amongst others. One of the consequences of this is that sex workers in Sweden who've been raped by a client and reported it to the police have been evicted as a result; the police have gone to their landlords and told them that unless they evict those women, they could go to prison. I believe this was a big reason Amnesty took the position they did. The response of the "end prostitution" campaigners was basically to lie, claiming that Amnesty were making the issue in question up because Sweden hadn't criminalized the sex workers. (Which was half-true but irrelevant because Sweden had criminalized their landlords instead.)

marvin• 10 years ago

The effect of the pimping laws making it illegal to rent apartments to sex workers in Oslo has in fact made life a lot more difficult for sex workers.

The Oslo police has had a long-running operation called "Operation Houseless" (official name), where the police threaten landlords with prosecution unless they evict suspected sex workers from their home.

Just thought I'd share that tidbit - the left's rhetoric has the sex worker laws painted as protecting women from exploitation, but the enforcement of the law doesn't support this goal at all. (Not to mention that enforcement of these laws when the sex workers are male, is non-existent). My skeptic view is that the criminalization of the purchase of sexual services came about mostly because there were a lot of Nigerian prostitutes in the main street outside of Parliament in 2008, and that the politicians needed a palatable legal excuse for getting rid of what seemed like a disgraceful situation.

vacri2• 10 years ago

I think you're underestimating humanity's sex drive. It's called "the oldest profession" for a reason. Making something so inherent to us "as difficult and dangerous as possible" demonstrably does not stop prostitution, which continues even in places where there are harsh physical penalties for it.

Here in Melbourne, I think they've got the right answer. Brothels are perfectly legal and get government inspectors, but street prostitution is illegal. Basically it's a regulated industry, and the form of prostitution that's subject to the bulk of the problems is the banned one. It's a bit like the War on Drugs, where almost everyone agrees that legalisation and regulation is a better answer to the ills of drugs than blanket bans.

gozur8810• 10 years ago

By making it as difficult and dangerous as possible for everyone involved.

This ends up causing more problems than the prostitution caused.

anonymfus• 10 years ago

Make sex abundant by changing culture.

One proposal in Russian feminism movement in the beginning of XX century was "glass of water theory" (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Теория_стакана_воды , sadly there is no good English source) that stated that providing sex must be as easy as providing a glass of water to somebody who asks for one, and concepts of love/relationships/family/jealousy/cheating (which were viewed as related to interpretation of marriage as a sort of slavery) must be deprecated for this.

Other interesting proposal made by Eliezer Yudkowsky in the "Three Worlds Collide" novella was legalising rape.

econner• 10 years ago

Other interesting proposal by Eliezer Yudkowsky made in "Three Worlds Collide" novella was legalising rape.

Ohhh. It is satire. You had me ಠ_ಠ for a moment.

thrownear• 10 years ago

concepts of love/relationships/family/jealousy/cheating

I share a similar view,

But our current set up won't allow for something like that.

When you take out those concepts, you will see a human being suddenly has a lot less potential disasters/sufferings hanging over his head, which makes him harder to control and exploit, which is all living in todays world is about. Being exploited nicely.

Give a man a family or put him in a 'romantic' relationship. You will see that he get reduced to pulp, Easily controllable and mouldable into anything as required by the state and similar establishments...

They won't let that change happen.

cm36• 10 years ago

In places where drug use or prostitution are illegal there are usually interest groups earning quite bit via the penal system or just plain stealing people's stuff because they were involved in drugs or prostitution.

So logically speaking it should be officially accepted as a profession and managed by the health department in order for the sex workers to not suffer as much. Then you can also apply the same controls to sex trafficking as you do to the non-sex shadow work force.

Portugal's health system allowed them to legalize drug use and create a healthier society and decrease related crime. Let's face it, if someone wants to smoke crack or pay a sex worker, they will do it regardless. Might as well control and earn money the usual way like liquor taxes.

mmanfrin• 10 years ago

Baptists and bootleggers.

cm36• 10 years ago

What do you mean?

cm36• 10 years ago

Replacing logic with emotions or beliefs is one of the biggest flaws in law making around the world. Not much has changed in that regard except that we've accepted more scientific facts into our lives since the days of witch hunts. But there's still too much science ignored or discarded in favor of beliefs to make laws.

alwaysdoit• 10 years ago

I guess my biggest concern with this is tied up in this potential dystopian future where prostitution is basically the only unskilled job humans can do better than machines. How do we prevent people from being forced into this out of economic desperation?

maaku3• 10 years ago

You really think we won't be able to build a better sex bot?

hkmurakami• 10 years ago

Japan's on the case. ;)

mozumder• 10 years ago

You don't. It'll be a job like any other.

"How do we prevent people from being forced into electrical engineering to get out of their economic desperation?"

Zikes3• 10 years ago

It seems to be like people are being forced into STEM out of economic desperation lately, but the sentiment seems more like "how do we force more people into STEM".

bravo22• 10 years ago

How do we prevent people from being forced into this out of economic desperation?

Answer: Prevent economic desperation.

In this dystopian future if prostitution is illegal and the law is heavily enforced then desperate people will find other ways to make ends meet which will surely be more harmful to society.

stcredzero2• 10 years ago

What kind of ideology advocates for the necessity of economic desperation? Some people seem to think that we actually need it for society to function. I'm not sure we've amassed the kind of empirical knowledge to say for sure one way or another.

justinlardinois4• 10 years ago

I see more or less this same question on every Hacker News thread about automation: "How will humans stay employed when machines can do everything better and cheaper?"

And the answer I most often see is to have a universal basic income, which makes sense to me.

The main argument against basic income in the United States is that it discourages people from working. I think that's probably true, and in this country we see work as a virtue and an obligation. But I don't think the only thing we should seek from automation is to increase profits for business owners; we should also see it as improving human life in general by making work less necessary. And if work isn't necessary, shouldn't we provide a replacement for income that workers lose out on by the decreased availability of employment?

I guess that's not the only solution to the problem. I could also see the government taxing automated labor to artificially inflate its cost and thus encourage businesses to employ humans. I don't think it's as good of a solution, but it would solve the problem too.

BatFastard• 10 years ago

I am against Prostitution, but I do not think it should be a crime. As a society we should legalize all behaviors that do not harm others. I know that's a slippery slope, but rehab is better all around then jail.

jordigh3• 10 years ago

Maybe if we handle it like we handle cigarette smoking? Not illegal, but regulated, heavily taxed, only for adults, only in designated areas, and with a government campaign that points out all of the (mental) health hazards that come with it?

vezycash• 10 years ago

I think regulation might be worse. With regulation comes licensing / certifications which of course costs money that most prostitutes don't have. Basically, it'll create a new legal class of pimps.

Fastidious2• 10 years ago

Absolutely not. There is too much regulation as it is. Cigarette smoking harms, the smoker and others. Prostitution does not.

kefka3• 10 years ago

How is prostitution any different than selling our bodies to work in a factory, or construction, or retail, or ....

Our bodies wear down and tire doing non-sexual labor. What makes sexual labor so horrid? As long as we do safe procedures (condoms, dental dams, etc.), there shouldn't be any problems with labor of a sexual nature.

It's always better if you like your job. A lot of us do programming, or designing systems, or administration. We enjoy it. There's also people who like sex. I know a few, and they have made more in the sex industry.

The only real problems are disease and abuse. Disease is obvious, but "owners" like pimps and such are big problems. We don't accept this in standard employment.

And yes, sex for money for both genders is pretty awesome. It bypasses the whole mating ritual, and makes very clear expectations up front. And once done, the transaction is completed. Regular relationships can, and will get messy. I can certainly understand why some would not want to venture down that avenue in their point of life.

ProAm4• 10 years ago

It's really hard to make babies at the construction site, even on accident.

kefka3• 10 years ago

Sex work has nothing to do with children. At all. Birth control, IUDs, condoms, and abortions are all used to prevent births.

Now, if you're talking about paid surrogacy, that's a whole different area, and a whole different set of laws.

tomp8• 10 years ago

It's easy to die, though.

humanrebar• 10 years ago

The downvotes on this are baffling. Is it so hard to believe that poorly educated addicts are selling sex on the side and getting pregnant?

Just googling a little: http://gradworks.umi.com/34/32/3432633.html

''' The vast majority, 19 of the 20 participants, had been pregnant as a result of intimate partner, rape, and prostitution encounters. The risk of pregnancy was not a concern for most participants. Participants rarely used consistent contraception with either intimate partners or prostitution clients. Most pregnancies were unintended, irrespective of prostitution involvement. '''

OK. Anecdotal, not random sampling, but it proves that "Just use contraception!" isn't a fair answer for whatever reason.

Anyway, the kids that are born to prostitutes are certainly not consenting and absolutely in a bad situation.

atmosx5• 10 years ago

What makes sexual labor so horrid?

Religion, especially Christendom and it's various strains. Before that in many cultures, sex was seen a something positive, a pleasure in which you should indulge in.

You can see it on TV. Take DareDevils TVSeries, but I'm sure you'll find many examples, there are countless raw violence scenes for free, but 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. It's okay to display violence, no one will argue, but displaying explicit sex scenes... Well that's a no-no :-)

We have more than a few remnants from the dark ages.

EDIT: There's this amazing song by an Italian cantautor called "Fabrizio De Andre". The story (lyrics) are spectacular, full of everyday life wisdom. You can read an English translation on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysydBLMSbRs

Fastidious2• 10 years ago

Yes, religion (especially Christianity) comes, once again, to mess things up. It is the cause of many problems we have today, and it affect us all, as it is deeply ingrained in politics and government.

I can go and sell blood, or work ten hours a day, or eat until I explode, yet I have someone dictating what I can or cannot do with my sex life?

Certainly more than a few remnants from the dark ages.

Zircom• 10 years ago

You can see it on TV. Take DareDevils TVSeries, but I'm sure you'll find many examples, there are countless raw violence scenes for free, but 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss.

Or perhaps that has more to do with the fact that Catholicism is central to Mathew Murdock as a character, so it makes sense he isn't sleeping around given that premarital sex is a big no-no for Catholics. Also, we're only two seasons in, not three.

jessaustin4• 10 years ago

...3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss.

If you're looking for more, one might suggest the "affiliated" Hell's-Kitchen-in-Marvel-Universe-on-Netflix program Jessica Jones. Ms. Jones has a different philosophy than Mr. Murdock with respect to casual intercourse, which you might find more appealing. They appear to agree on plenty of the old ultra-violence, however.

padobson• 10 years ago

I find the moral outrage against sex by my fellow Christians to be a perversion of the teachings of Jesus.

Two C.S. Lewis quotes on the subject:

"The sins of the flesh are bad, but they are the least bad of all sins."

"...a cold, self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute."

The desire for sex is ingrained in human nature, and so long as people can pay for things, sex will be one of the things they pay for. If we can reduce the number of victims by making it legal and regulating it, then I'm all for it. But, at the same time, I'd consider myself a failure as a moral guide if my daughter chose it as a career.

CobrastanJorji• 10 years ago

I watched "Deadpool" on a flight the other day. It warned me that it was edited for content, and I thought "hrm, that's a shame, but given that there may be children around me on a flight, I suppose that's reasonable."

I then watched an entire human body literally splatter against a wall without censorship, followed later by a heavily injured protagonist standing up facing away, presumably nude because they blurred out his butt.

umbs2• 10 years ago

TLDR; I don't think religion is the reason for Matt Murdock's not having serious relationship.

Your main point seems to be lack of explicit sexual content on DareDevil. You are tying that with Matt Murdock's (loose) Christian faith. I feel somewhat differently about DareDevil and it's story line.

[1] In season 2, Matt had relationship with Electra and they _do_ have sex in the boxing gym. Creators of the show did not show it _very_ explicitly.

[2] Matt's discussions with Father Lantom in the Church is more spiritual rather than religious, IMO. They discuss about morals, right/wrong etc. Notice that Lantom always uses "God" and not "Jesus" (AFAIR). I don't think anything Father Lantom says is picked out of Bible or looks like preaching. Just his observations on life. I am a Hindu and I totally related to what he was saying. Never felt he was preaching or giving sermons. I feel, you can rename Matt to something else and put a Temple of Mosque there and still all that Father Lantom says will be appropriate (story line wise).

[3] Matt is very clear in his priorities. Given his "other life", he simply cannot afford to have a serious relationship. He states it at some point with Claire Temple (Rosario Dawson). His will "weakens" in season 2 and begins relationship with Karen Page before Electra comes in and sours it. With all this background, and no serious relationships between other characters, having an explicit sexual scene seems contrived and needless.

[4] The original content from Netflix in the Drama section has about 10 series. I watched 4 of them to a certain lengths. The amount of explicit content, particularly sexual content, is too much for me. Many times I feel there is absolutely no need for it (especially with Marco and Sense8). In that light, I feel DareDevil is much better for me.

Sorry, my comment is too long than I intended. And it digressed from OP and more on DD's story line.

joelrunyon• 10 years ago

DareDevil might have been the worst example you could have picked for your argument.

MustardTiger5• 10 years ago

Religion, especially Christendom and it's various strains. Before that in many cultures, sex was seen a something positive, a pleasure in which you should indulge in.

Neither of those things are really accurate though. Christianity long considered sex positive too. Having sex with your spouse was in fact a legal requirement, your wife could sue you for not performing.

Most other cultures were the same way. Everyone having sex with everyone made for a pretty bad society. That's why there was so much focus on pairing off and creating a family.

doktrin• 10 years ago

3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss.

Wasn't there a fairly explicit sex scene in the most recent season (which incidentally is 2, not 3)?

optforfon• 10 years ago

This is a simplistic answer. Look at East Asian cultures to seem a much more sexual conservative environment. Try to delve into the why and it's complicated! As far as I can tell it boils down to marriage stability. Most people date to marry (any relationships that don't lead to marriage are viewed as a failure). Promiscuity leads to sexual insecurity as the less experiences partner fears not living up to the more experienced partners expectations. So this creates a strong downward pressure on everyone to not be promiscuous (and in small communities peer pressure is overwhelming)

I can imagine that historically prostitution was kinda the equivalent of becoming a eunuch. Sure it maybe pays well, but you typically won't marry (I guess unless your stunningly beautiful?) and you won't carry on your family lineage (or the vague female equivalent)

michaelsbradley3• 10 years ago

Christian thinkers have, over the past 20 centuries, developed a variety of views on when/how immoral actions should be tolerated by the state (and left to divine judgment) versus their being actively prosecuted.

There is a fascinating essay on the moral theology of Thomas Aquinas – one of the most influential thinkers in the history of Western Christian thought – as it pertains to the toleration of prostitution:

Aquinas on the Practice of Prostitution

http://www.illinoismedieval.org/ems/VOL13/13ch4.html

bottled_poe• 10 years ago

sex was seen a something positive, a pleasure in which you should indulge in.

Can you back that up with evidence?

"Because religion" is a predictable response, but I think there is more to it than that. This argument fails to acknowledge the fact that sex is inherently an emotional activity, while other activities, such as bricklaying, are not. The social aspects of prostitution, and the implications on relationships between humans, are precisely why it is widely deplored beyond religious ideology. Religion is not some construct of imagination, it is the result of human cultural development over thousands of years.

cushychicken• 10 years ago

Sounds more like a statement of the mores of American television. Violence is OK to show, but sex is a big no-no. Interestingly, the reverse is true in Europe.

Spooky233• 10 years ago

What makes sexual labor so horrid?

It's generally exploitive of women.

enneff4• 10 years ago

"explotive" isn't a word and that's not an argument.

Mz12• 10 years ago

So is paying women less than men for the same work and designing jobs to be filled by a married man with a supportive wife. Women get devalued and exploited in a great many ways. This is hardly unique to sex work. And when sex work is illegal, it just makes it easier to exploit the sex workers. It doesn't protect them.

gozur8810• 10 years ago

What does that mean in concrete terms? What makes prostitution different than other jobs?

largote• 10 years ago

It wouldn't be if it were legal and the women in question had access to legal recourses to protect themselves from exploitation.

tomp8• 10 years ago

It's generally exploitive of women.

You mean the same way as any other job is exploitative of women (and men) who perform it?

refurb2• 10 years ago

The only real problems are disease and abuse.

You answered your own question.

I have no doubt there are plenty of folks out there who are willing and eager participants in prostitution. Since it seems to be heavily associated with abuse, drug addiction and violence, society has put effort into stamping it out.

enneff4• 10 years ago

You have cause and effect backwards. Puritanical religious movements drove it underground which made it more hazardous that it need be.

zik2• 10 years ago

In places like Australia where it's legal and regulated disease and abuse are not issues. Prostitutes have a lower rate of STDs than the general population and brothels are monitored for compliance with workplace practices.

clavalle7• 10 years ago

What makes sexual labor so horrid?

It is a really effective way to spread some pretty terrible diseases.

And, no, condoms and dental dams etc aren't going to be full protection. There are some that are not routinely tested for and many people don't know about.

For example HTLV is a sexually transmitted virus that can stay dormant for decades before causing lymphoma all the while being passed to other people. In other instances it can lead to nerve damage. I wonder how many people have 'MS' when it is really just a nerve destroying virus nobody thought to test them for or that we haven't isolated yet...

And that is one that we happen to know about (but isn't commonly regarded). What about all of those diseases that we haven't discovered yet? They are out there.

Just because religion says its wrong doesn't mean it's not a bad idea. This is not an original idea but I think it is likely a lot of religious dogma comes from practical observation that was easier for observers to explain to lay-folk as the Will of God rather than as a probabilistic fact. It is dangerous to assume that people don't have a point because of the way that point is presented.

argonaut2• 10 years ago

Putting thousands of chickens in a single pen (industrial mass food production) is also a really effective way to spread some terrible diseases (antibiotic resistance), and incubate new ones (avian flu).

Suffice to say, while this is a valid effect, it is not the actual reason the public has such a moral aversion to legalized prostitution.

kafkaesq• 10 years ago

It is a really effective way to spread some pretty terrible diseases.

But the thing is -- as demonstrated by the entirety of known human history -- people are going to find a way to engage in it, no matter what governing power structures may try do to try to prohibit it. So the bigger question is whether attempts at totalistic prohibition (as opposed to regulation) actually lessen the risks of disease transmission -- or make them worse.

CJKinni• 10 years ago

And, no, condoms and dental dams etc aren't going to be full protection. There are some that are not routinely tested for and many people don't know about.

Part of this was covered in the article:

Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, along with other groups that support decriminalization — U.N.AIDS, the World Health Organization, the Global Commission on H.I.V. and the Law and the Open Society Foundations — acknowledge that there can be grave harms associated with the sex industry, but say that they see changes in the law as a precondition to reducing them. Last year, an analysis[0] in The Lancet predicted[1] that “decriminalization of sex work could have the largest effect on the course of the H.I.V. epidemic,” by increasing access to condoms and medical treatment. Governments can free themselves to crack down on trafficking and under-age prostitution, human rights advocates argue, if they stop arresting consenting adults.

So sure, awareness of condoms and dental dams might not be 'full protection.' But outreach efforts to improve safer sex along with legalization seems to be the better alternative to doing nothing.

[0] http://www.thelancet.com/series/hiv-and-sex-workers [1]: http://www.vox.com/2014/7/28/5944597/study-decriminalizing-p...

2muchcoffeeman• 10 years ago

In Australia, the rates of STDs in sex workers is half that of the general population.

tryitnow2• 10 years ago

Are you kidding? Or are you serious?

The probabilities of getting the diseases you refer to are much, much lower than the probability of suffering harm due to alcohol or tobacco use.

Now if you're saying we should also ban the use of those items, then I can at least applaud you for being consistent, if rather extremely risk averse.

But I'd bet that you wouldn't support banning labor involved in alcohol and tobacco assumption, would you?

Nope.

This is just irrational moral revulsion masquerading as a concern for public health.

Life is full of risks. Some we can ban, but most we either can't or wouldn't want to ban. We need to educate and regulate.

zik2• 10 years ago

Sex work is legal where I live, and prostitutes have less diseases that the general population due to regulation of the industry enforcing safe sex practices.

waterhouse2• 10 years ago

From a Reddit AMA with a prostitute at a legal brothel in Nevada: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/wxn5i/my_name_is_amy_...

Q: "What is the process of being tested for STD's? Do all of your clients wear condoms all the time, or is it up to your discretion?" A: "Yes we get tested once a week. Customers wear condoms for oral and sex."

One of the commenters says (about a different brothel): "You settle on a price, they inspect your junk for any visible diseases. Then you go to her room or a theme room if you pay extra for it."

From an interview by Salon with the owner of the first brothel:

""At the Bunnyranch, our girls get tested for HIV every 30 days, every seven days for gonorrhea, chlamydia and syphilis," he told me. "Then it's all condom usage -- even for oral sex. They're also trained on how to inspect a client. We actually have the Health Department come in and tell a girl what to look for. It's not 100 percent -- but by inspecting a man and making him use a condom, it helps take the risk out of it."

Hof said that the testing the brothel does is mandated by state law. And registered prostitutes are required to have cards signed by a health provider indicating that they're disease-free; otherwise, they don't work. Police check the cards once a week, and if the women are not cleared, Hof gets slapped with a substantial fine."

One of the girls claims in a 2014 Q&A post: "61. How often does STD transmissions occur in Brothels? I encourage you to do your own research, I did. It's a documented fact that in more than 30 years of state record-keeping, not a single incidence of STD transmissions have occurred in a legal brothel here in Nevada. Not one! Again, you're astronomically safer here than in your neighborhood meat market." As we'll see, she seems to be not totally correct, but close:

I was able to track down a study, referenced by a bunch of articles, comparing STD rates in the port industry versus Nevada brothels. For our purposes, the relevant quote is: "As of the late 1980s, brothel workers in Nevada have been required by state law to use condoms for every type of sex act and to be tested weekly for STIs. Since the implementation of these regulations, these brothel workers have not had a single case of HIV, and their STI rates are negligible."

http://mobile.journals.lww.com/stdjournal/_layouts/15/oaks.j...

random_upvoter2• 10 years ago

How is prostitution any different than selling our bodies to work in a factory, or construction, or retail, or ....

This sounds true if you have a choice of jobs. But with "regular" jobs, we accept that someone can be forced by circumstances to take such a job, even if it isn't the greatest job in the world.

Suppose a friend of mine is unemployed and complaining about money problems, I can imagine myself saying "So why don't you just take the job of a dishwasher until things get better?"

But I can't really imagine myself saying "So why don't you just sell your body until things get better?"

CaptSpify4• 10 years ago

But how much of that is because of societies stigma, vs your actual perception of the industry. I'm not saying your wrong, I kind of have that stigma too, but I can't say wether I actually believe it or I've been conditioned to.

PeterisP2• 10 years ago

For men, we do sometimes suggest joining the military for pay - which has some parallels (very different but in some ways alike) as you're (a) selling your body to be mutilated or killed; and (b) removing agency regarding moral taboos, in sex work the issues regarding sexual acts, in military the issues regarding killing potentially innocent people.

raddad• 10 years ago

I can imagine myself saying "So why don't you just take the job of a dishwasher until things get better?" But I can't really imagine myself saying "So why don't you just sell your body until things get better?"

"Love you long time, five dallah" and the ensuing event takes three minutes which works out to $100/hr while the dishwasher makes what, %7.50? $100/hr vs $7.50/hr, hmmmm. I have known nurses and teachers who worked their way through college in the sex trade. They were incredible people who likely had no student debt.

EdSharkey3• 10 years ago

I don't object to someone selling sexual services as a free agent. What I object to is the human trafficking associated with the vast majority of it.

Life is not awesome for most sex workers. If you're paying for sex, assume you're in the slave trade! Full stop.

tremon• 10 years ago

Life is not awesome for most sex workers. If you're paying for sex, assume you're in the slave trade!

That's the war on drugs all over again: the violence and exploitation is mostly a consequence of the illegality, not of the profession itself.

tomp8• 10 years ago

If you're paying for sex, assume you're in the slave trade.

If you paying for a fast food burger or for an iPhone, assume you're in the slave trade.

neoCrimeLabs• 10 years ago

I would be curious as to where you get "vast majority" from.

One of the things I love HN community for is the overall interest in collecting and representing reliable statistical information.

The reason I am questioning "vast majority" is that when something is illegal, it's very hard to derive accurate statistics on. When something is illegal your primary sources of information is law enforcement, people who have exited, and what a few people involved in the activity will volunteer. Since the activity is illegal, few people who are actively involved will volunteer information for the fear of having it used against them. Add to that the stigma that sexual services carries with it (regardless if they were cohered or not), and people REALLY do not want to divulge information about their activities in sexual services even after they have exited.

Because of this any metrics derived will be very law-enforcement biased, or from a vastly small sample of the overall community. Neither of these are reliable sources of information. Just looking at how the FBI in recent years /reduced/ the number of statistics available on their sexual-service stings is a great example of this. It makes it impossible for anyone to derive reliable or trend-able information from the statistics they have released.

Here's a great article that explains a lot of what I'm saying with links to verifiable references

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/...

max_• 10 years ago

I cannot agree more.

I think prostitution is a victimless crime and the only reason why countries penalize it, is because politicians are not brave enough to do it.

They fear to be labeled "immoral" or bad influences of some sort by religious audiences.

shkkmo6• 10 years ago

Prostitution as a crime, frequently has victims. Usually as a direct result of it's illegality.

downandout2• 10 years ago

Every point you raise is valid. I strongly believe it should be decriminalized. However, I just don't see it ever happening in the US. Why? Because women don't want their husbands or boyfriends buying sex from other women, and that simple fact alone is enough to swing any election involving a candidate that would enable it to legally happen.

colemickens• 10 years ago

Are you suggesting that keeping prostitution illegal is preventing men from cheating on their wives? I've not met many people who are so naive.

seanalltogether• 10 years ago

How is prostitution any different than selling our bodies to work in a factory, or construction, or retail, or .... Our bodies wear down and tire doing non-sexual labor. What makes sexual labor so horrid?

I'll bite. Sexual workers are among a very rare breed of "workers" who can make money from doing nothing, and this is what opens the doors to abuse. You cannot make money off a factory, construction, or retail employee if they just sit there and do nothing, you can however make money off a sex employee in that situation.

I think there is something fundamentally different about a sex worker that can't allow us to compare them to athletes or construction workers or other professions.

gizmo6862• 10 years ago

Sexual workers are among a very rare breed of "workers" who can make money from doing nothing.

What? If I hire a prostitute, and they do not do anything, I would want my money back. If it prostitution were legal, one could consider suing the prostitute (although, like most scammers, it is probably easier to eat the loss then go after them).

Maybe you are saying that a sex worker could have an arrangement where they get paid for merely being on-call, even if no work comes in for them. However, this is not unique to sex work either. For instance, I have a doctor friend who does online consulting. He has regular hours that he gets paid for, even though often times he does not receive any calls during this time. I assume that there are other industries with simmilar arrangements.

whiddershins2• 10 years ago

I don't know. I'm in favor of legalizing prostitution.

But I don't think all work is created equal. Doing intimate and personal things for money COULD be argued to be such a mentally or emotionally damaging task, only people being exploited would ever take the work.

I think any work which falls in to the category of /no one would do it unless they are horribly without options/ is work that society should strive to eliminate.

gricardo994• 10 years ago

I used to hold similar views, but the opinion of this person, who worked with prostitutes, really opened my eyes to the problems and started to change my mind: http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2012/02/22/dissent-of-the-day...

From a economics stand-point, there's way higher demand than supply. And currently the only supply is another person. Most people won't willingly choose to be prostitutes when they have other options. Surprise! This big supply/demand gap leads to some very unsavory ways to increase supply:coercion and exploitation.

Maybe one day something like sexbots will change this dynamic, but until then the sex trade is a very difficult and tragic problem.

shkkmo6• 10 years ago

And you think that forcing the market to be a black market decreases the coercion and exploitation?

Simply legalizing sex work is not enough. We have to combat the social stigma. We have to craft regulation that puts the power in the hands of sex workers, not brothels. We have to put in place enforcement strategies that combat and discourage human trafficking (such as undercover checks of immigration status that provide amnesty for illegal immigrants while prosecuting those who trafficked them.) The solutions to combat exploitation and coercion are not simple, but making it illegal solves very few problems beyond allowing some people to feel morally superior.

As we work towards solving these problems, our position on the supply/demand curve will shift to provide a price where supply equals demand.

pcarolan• 10 years ago

I dont think its every girls dream to be a sex worker when she grows up. Its not about religion or morality its about quality of life. Its about humanity.

mason55• 10 years ago

I dont think its every girls dream to be a sex worker when she grows up.

Is it most people's dream to be a fast food worker, Walmart greeter, or street sweeper?

Tons of people work jobs they didn't dream of because they pay the bills, why is sex work so different?

bikamonki2• 10 years ago

You make it sound as if Joe or Jane sits down one day, after finishing highschool, pondering life options and just come up with: Hey! I'll be a prostitute, money is good and if I am careful no harm should happen to me. It's just a job!

It is obvious that most prostitutes are not there by choice, by a mature rational decision. Most prostitutes are victims dragged into it by ignorance, by poverty, by drug addiction, by human traffic and exploitation. The psychological damage is done too fast too soon, rehab is hard if not impossible. In many cases they become pregnant and now they have another mouth to feed. If the kid is a girl, very likely to learn to do what the mother does.

It should be a crime! However, only the buyer should be punished, as it would be very unjust to punish the victim twice.

sreya• 10 years ago

You argue under the presumption that the prostitute is there against their will. Assuming prostitution is made legal and thus brothels are allowed to operate under government regulations there shouldn't be any emotional or physical trauma. Prostitutes would become prostitutes because they would want to or because circumstances determined that that was the best way for them to make a living. Pregnancy wouldn't be an issue either. You know people become porn stars because they want to right? How is being a prostitute in a regulated industry any different?

dragonwriter4• 10 years ago

Except for trafficking and exploitation (well, except insofar as economic duress is exploitation, in which case that too), all that's true of many legal low-status jobs, and trafficking and exploitation (beyond the economic duress of poverty in capitalism) are issues created of exacerbated by criminalization.

tomp8• 10 years ago

You make it sound as if Joe or Jane sits down one day, after finishing highschool, pondering life options and just come up with: Hey! I'll be a prostitute, money is good and if I am careful no harm should happen to me. It's just a job!

Given that people freely choose very similar jobs (porn actors & actresses), it would appear to me that some consider this a legitimate and good life choice (plenty of sex, good money, good working hours).

Having said that, I personally don't understand why anyone would choose that life path. But I also don't understand why anyone would voluntarily go into the military. Different people like different things!

jcslzr• 10 years ago

No its not the same selling your labor to selling sex. Because sex is something intimate. But your analogy is not wrong. When we sell our time doing something we dont like we also become prostitutes. There are things that should not be for sale, because they are holy. Time and intimacy are in that group. On the other hand making it illegal creates many problems and does not resolve anything. I personally think the real reason prostitution is illegal is so men are more willing to marry and to be under control of their wifes, years ago it was normal to go to a cantina with prostitues on it, and every respectable person was there. Back then the respect a man got from his wife was much much better also.

keithnz3• 10 years ago

Here in New Zealand we made it legal a number of years ago, and now it mostly seems like a non issue these days, and from reports it's made the industry safer. None of the horror scenarios that people predicted would happen if we legalized it came about. I think there is the odd problem with asian women brought in illegally to the country and exploited, but I think because the industry itself is legal it actually makes it easier for the police to find out about it and for whistle blowers from the industry to come forward.

bmh_ca• 10 years ago

Statistics on the effect/results would be most interesting.

keithnz3• 10 years ago

Here's a government review ( I've linked to the conclusion, but you can get back to the full report pretty easy)

http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy/commercial-property-and-re...

nostrebored11• 10 years ago

New Zealand actually decriminalized prostitution. Legalization is an entirely different system.

LeoPanthera• 10 years ago

Honest question: What's the difference? I have no idea.

cortesi6• 10 years ago

That's not correct - prostitution is fully legal here in New Zealand. Sex workers are covered by sex-work specific occupational health and safety regulations, pay taxes on their income, have government-mandated workplace conditions, can get insurance against workplace injury, etc. It really is "just another job", apart from societal stigma (which is gradually declining too).

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_New_Zealand

http://www.business.govt.nz/worksafe/information-guidance/al...

keithnz3• 10 years ago

Here's the law... http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2003/0028/latest/D...

spriggan3• 10 years ago

France decided to make clients criminals, not prostitutes, thus it is legal to sell sexual services yet illegal to consume them ?!?

bastardoperator• 10 years ago

Why can't two consenting adults enter into a contract with one another? I suspect the governments issue with prostitution has something to do with taxes.

If you film it... changes everything.

justinlardinois4• 10 years ago

I'm tired of this argument. A john pays a prostitute for their services for their own enjoyment. A porn actor isn't paid by their costar, they're paid by the production company so it can sell the recording.

It's like comparing filming a romantic comedy to a lonely guy paying an escort to hang out with him. There's a bigger difference than just the fact that a camera is involved.

Also not really into the contract angle either. Why can't a consenting adult sell their vote?

yarou2• 10 years ago

There isn't really much difference other than a camera being involved. In fact, I'd argue porn is more exploitative than prostitution. And if you think filming porn is akin to filming a romantic comedy, you haven't seen Hot Girls Wanted.

Zikes3• 10 years ago

The majority of the abolitionists seem to be approaching the issue in an entirely one-sided manner: prostitution is male customers and female prostitutes. It completely ignores that women can desire purely sexual encounters (which Tinder and Chippendales are big examples of evidence against) or that sex can be a moral and healthy experience for both parties even if money is involved.

"They’re sexual objects. What does that mean for how professional women are seen? And if women are sex toys you can buy, think about the impact on relationships between men and women, in marriage or otherwise."

They're really showing their hand here. First, they want you to believe that all women are accountable for all other women. They see every sexual depiction of a woman to be representative of all women, which to me is the real objectification of the gender.

Second, as it relates to "relationships between men and women", they want to exert control over personal relationships, which is just ludicrous. Do they honestly think men only have monogamous relationships for the sex?

drdeca2• 10 years ago

I disagree with the claim that prostitution can be moral.

Whether it should be legal is another question, and one which I don't have much of an opinion on. But I do not believe that it is moral to pay for sex.

However, I also don't think that sex should occur outside of marriage, so, my viewpoint might be kind of far from what others are stating in this thread.

Zikes3• 10 years ago

There's nothing immoral about what two consenting adults do in the bedroom.

steego• 10 years ago

I've argued in the past that making prostitution illegal fuels human trafficking because it finances criminal enterprises by incentivizing the exploitation and enslavement women who have little protection from the law.

Personally speaking, I think it's a misogynistic policy that creates untold tragedy for exploited women everywhere.

mc322• 10 years ago

If it is going to be a crime, let the John or Jane be the penalized, i.e. the service user rather than the service provider, because, in the majority of cases, this industry is enabled by exploitation of the people in a weak economic state.

See France.

CaptSpify4• 10 years ago

I posted something similar elsewhere but...

If we had systems in place that prostitues could turn to instead of prostitution, then only those that actually wanted to be a prostitue would be. People wouldn't turn to it as a last resort.

mc322• 10 years ago

One confounding issue is that some are captive participants --that is someone is controlling their behavior (i.e. making them do it) via manipulation, threats and codependence, etc.

nicolas_t• 10 years ago

I strongly believe that making prostitution illegal only creates problem by driving prostitution underground and favoring human traffic and abuse.

An open society should make prostitution legal but also regulate it, institute regular health checks for the workers, find a way to ensure that there are legal ways for both prostitutes and clients to do the transaction in a safe environment and be tough on any abuse that happens outside of the law.

Some countries like Sweden have started penalizing customers but that, while the government claim that it's been efficient and shows that there are less streetwalkers nowadays in Sweden, the opposition claims otherwise by saying that prostitution just moved to online venues and that there's been an increase in sexual tourism by Swedish Nationals.

nostrebored11• 10 years ago

Prostitution is something that people get into out of desperation. The disconnect that people seem to have here is a "Pretty Woman"-ified view of prostitution; even in places where prostitution is decriminalized, people enter due to desperation and do not exit due to dependence.

There is no way to do the transaction in a safe environment as by nature you (nearly always a woman) are locking yourself in a room with someone who is likely larger and stronger than you (nearly always a man) who views your body and emotional output something they can buy.

The people who oppose the criminalization of purchasing sex via the Nordic Model make vague claims about stigma and 'shifting underground' but ignore the reality of the data: The Nordic model has been shown to reduce being hit with a fist (38%) and rape (48%) by significant amounts. Research done by anti-Nordic model researchers substantiates this, while claiming that an increase in reports of verbal abuse and hair pulling makes this a failure. From the report, we also see: “Most of the women who said they would seek help to protect against violence said that they called or threatened to call the police when they found themselves in a dangerous or threatening situation. This would often scare the customers, or others, who were acting threatening/violent away.” There was also an 80% reduction in prostitutes seeking help from emergency care. [1]

Also, claiming that people leaving your borders to break your laws constitutes a failure would be a great way to repeal age of consent laws in the US. Pedophiles just go on sexual tourism trips to places where the age of consent is lower -- but does that make the law unsuccessful?

Even if the law is placing the focus on johns, that doesn't mean that johns are the group that are designed to see the primary effects of the law. The Nordic model is very upfront about trying to minimize coercion, trafficking, and violence against women, and does so by providing exit programs for prostituted women and placing the burden of the law on those who purchase sex.

[1] https://humboldt1982.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/dangerous-l...

DanBC3• 10 years ago

There is no way to do the transaction in a safe environment as by nature you (nearly always a woman)

About 40% of the prostitutes in the UK are male. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11169544/Are-we-...

I agree the clients are almost entirely men.

Lots of sex-worker organisations have criticised the Nordic model as something that increases the risk to sex workers. Restricting the client base to men who are willing to break the law means you've biased the client group towards men who are more likely to be violent. https://newrepublic.com/article/121981/northern-ireland-sex-...

(EDIT I don't think I downvoted you, and I think it's a shame you were downvoted. I've upvoted your other reply.)

CaptSpify4• 10 years ago

IMO, one of the underlying problems is that prostituion is seen as a "last resort". If we had better systems in place for people who don't have many skills, they wouldn't need to turn to prostitution. Then, prostitution could be done by people who want to do it. Believe it or not, there are people who actually enjoy that type of job.

nitwit005• 10 years ago

Prostitution is something that people get into out of desperation.

Most of the time, maybe, but clearly not always. A woman was arrested for prostituting herself out of my university dorm. Her parents were paying her way through school. She just wanted cash to buy nice cloths.

There have long been people who prostitute themselves simply because it's easier than working.

ksou32• 10 years ago

As long as you need to be a citizen , I'm concerned about human trafficking.

hvmonk• 10 years ago

This is one of the oldest "profession" on this planet. IMO, it is still active today is a sufficient proof that it serve some folks well (on both sides), and shouldn't be labelled as crime or illegal. Sure, there are irregularities in this trade, but don't they exist in other professions as well? Underpaid waiters, underpaid workers, etc. Similarly it has its own poisonous weeds - pimps, trafficking, etc. That needs to be eradicated, not the industry per se.

mjevans• 10 years ago

Why is paying for sex any different from bribery ('dates') for potential sex?

auntienomen• 10 years ago

Obviously paying people to maybe have sex with you isn't any better than paying them to just do it. But that's not how most people understand the term 'date'.

drdeca2• 10 years ago

If that is how you understand dating, I would recommend that no one date you, at least until that understanding of yours changes.

jessaustin4• 10 years ago

Many men have that understanding of dating. They desire intercourse, and only submit to courtship rituals because the law requires that. If prostitution were legal, they would hire those services instead of engaging in deception. As a result, as you prefer, no one would date such men.

I think most people would be happier with such an arrangement. That's partly why many societies avoid it. The puritanical impulse motivates all laws against prostitution.

Mz12• 10 years ago

That is how I generally view dating. I think, on some level, most people view it that way. It offends a lot of people to point it out, but the general expectation is that the man pays for dates and he hopes that it results in sex at some point.

Edit: people seem to be missing my point. I am female and I don't date. (http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/01/no-dating-re...) Stating that this is a logical interpretation of dating does not mean I condone it. (Yup, as stated elsewhere, I am for decriminalization of sex work.)

bbcbasic• 10 years ago

Good to hear romance isn't dead

joesmo• 10 years ago

I don't understand why people consider sex a moral issue. This is a deeply personal issue and when done between consenting adults affects no one else. Why should it matter with whom one has sex with if all parties consent? It seems to me that people that want to put limits on this are simply overstepping their bounds because they can and they want to force their ideas onto others in an effort to control and dominate others. I mean the stated purpose of Amnesty International, according to some members, "should be to end demand for prostitution, not condone it." These people must be delusional, even more delusional than the anti-drug warriors who love to kill, imprison, and enslave. Interestingly enough, the outcome of both is the same.

These delusional people are the ones who need to be regulated as making sex a moral issue has indeed led to horrors that would have otherwise been avoided. I wouldn't even say they have good intentions in this case as it's obvious what happens when sex is made into a moral issue. We have the evidence and we know. We also know what happens when it's not and people are allowed to have sex with whomever they want for whatever they want. To still want to control who people have sex with and under what terms after knowing all this is to intentionally support all the negatives of having sex be a moral issue and outlawed in most places: human trafficking, slavery, etc.

These people making moral judgements about an amoral topic are the ones providing the foundation for the global sex trade. Shame on them indeed.

DanBC3• 10 years ago

Why should it matter with whom one has sex with if all parties consent?

So, there are some people who'll say that any paid for sex is wrong, even if all people involved are freely able to make the choice. Let's ignore those people for a moment.

Why should it matter with whom one has sex with if all parties consent?

48 year old buys sex from a 15 year old? Neither are in debt, or have drug addiction. Each say it's their free choice. Is that a problem?

Person buys sex from other person. The person selling sex has a drug addiction, and is using sex work as a method to buy drugs. Is the seller able to give consent in this situation?

There are many more, and these feel like moral judgements to be made, and it doesn't feel unreasonable to try to work out where the border between acceptable and unacceptable is.

PeterisP2• 10 years ago

When a 48 year old buys sex from a 15 year old then we can treat it exactly in the same manner as if a 48 year old would want buy e.g. inherited real estate from the same 15 year old - we simply acknowledge that the minor isn't able to grant informed consent and is likely to be exploited, so we don't consider the transaction consentual.

A 68 year old buying sex from a 18 year old - why not, it happens e.g. in marriage/"golddigging" scenarios? I mean, I can at the same time morally dislike some behavior and also acknowledge that I do not and should not have any right (moral or legal) to prohibit that behavior if they wish to do so.

combatentropy• 10 years ago

I don't understand why people consider sex a moral issue. This is a deeply personal issue and when done between consenting adults affects no one else.

I guess for the same reasons we make other personal decisions illegal, like suicide and the use of certain drugs.

C. S. Lewis once gave a metaphor. In a fleet of ships, if one fires on another, that of course is bad and should be illegal. But also if a ship's internal mechanisms are so bad that the ship careens into others, that is bad too.

Promiscuous sex spreads disease. Before the 1960s in the US, there were two main STDs, and both curable: syphilis and gonnorhea. After the '60s, it ballooned into a nationwide epidemic, and now we also have chlamydia, HIV, HPV (causes more deaths than HIV), and many others.

Another common-sense splash of water is to ask the question, "Would you want your child to grow up to be a prostitute?"

I don't see how the exploitation and abuse will end just by making it legal, either.

duckingtest• 10 years ago

Would you want your children to grow up to be a burger flipper?

tluyben23• 10 years ago

I guess for the same reasons we make other personal decisions illegal, like suicide and the use of certain drugs.

They shouldn't be illegal either imho.

Mz12• 10 years ago

I don't understand why people consider sex a moral issue.

I believe we treat it as a moral issue because when things go wrong, it negatively impacts the lives of many people, not just the person or persons who messed up.

If a child is conceived under poor circumstances, it isn't just the man and woman who suffer. The child suffers and so does all of society. Plus, diseases (very serious ones) and other complications abound.

Please note: I am for decriminilization of sex work. I think decriminilization reduces problems. So I am not saying we should handle sex as a moral issue -- at least, not in the sense of "and that justifies people being very controlling and judgey about it." I am just explaining why I think it gets treated that way.

nice_byte• 10 years ago

It should definitely be decriminalized (i.e. people engaged in it should not be persecuted by law). However, legalizing it does not necessarily eliminate issues like human trafficking/people being forced into prostitution.

smegel• 10 years ago

Coming from Australia, it amazes me how big a deal this is in the United States.

andrewstuart• 10 years ago

It's a total non issue here isn't it.

Sex workers get on with their lives and it rarely seems to be a problem for anyone.

drostie• 10 years ago

One of the things that has really changed my thinking about an entire cluster of related questions, and informs this one, is a Bloomberg article from a law professor about a year and a half ago.[1]

If you followed the link, skimmed through the article, and are now back at this comment going "what the hell are you talking about," go back to it and reread the first two paragraphs. It's really short, and it packs a punch, even if you're not a libertarian (I'm certainly not).

If you don't want to click through: Don't support a law unless you accept that it will kill some of the perpetrators. A law needs to survive its collateral damage. It is always a strong, non-theoretical possibility that due to some law, and whatever dynamics are available at the time, that someone will die as a result of it. It just requires a pimp or prostitute (in this case) who is being apprehended to accidentally move in just the wrong way, show just the wrong disrespect, that some police officer thinks they're in imminent danger of being attacked or shot. And, are you going to be comfortable with it?

The linked article points out that this is true in the case of Eric Garner's crime of selling loose cigarettes: nobody really thinks that this is something anyone should potentially die over. Similarly, I would say, for the act of selling one's body -- perhaps it might come with fines, to discourage it, but jail time seems insane. And one of the reasons is that it puts a threat on the lives of the women who are presumably already being trafficked.

(The article contains a bunch of other gems from a book it recommends: for example if you're having the "I don't need privacy; I've done nothing wrong" thing, you can be like, "statistically according to this book there's a 70% chance you have -- you probably just don't know it yet. Have you read the 3,000+ federal laws and do you know the 300,000+ federal regulations to be sure of that?")

[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-12-04/law-puts-u...

sokoloff2• 10 years ago

Three Felonies a Day excerpt:

The average professional in this country wakes up in the morning, goes to work, comes home, eats dinner, and then goes to sleep, unaware that he or she has likely committed several federal crimes that day. Why? The answer lies in the very nature of modern federal criminal laws, which have exploded in number but also become impossibly broad and vague. In Three Felonies a Day, Harvey A. Silverglate reveals how federal criminal laws have become dangerously disconnected from the English common law tradition and how prosecutors can pin arguable federal crimes on any one of us, for even the most seemingly innocuous behavior. The volume of federal crimes in recent decades has increased well beyond the statute books and into the morass of the Code of Federal Regulations, handing federal prosecutors an additional trove of vague and exceedingly complex and technical prohibitions...

http://amzn.to/24vLd3O

rat873• 10 years ago

The linked article points out that this is true in the case of Eric Garner's crime of selling loose cigarettes: nobody really thinks that this is something anyone should potentially die over.

Eric Garner's death has more to do with management of the police department then taxes on cigarettes. Also selling tax free cigarettes is likely to increases smoking and increase cancer deaths.

padmanabhan01• 10 years ago

I think its the state violating individual human rights if what consenting adults do with themselves without violating anyone else's rights is considered illegal. I am curious to understand how it is not or counter arguments if any.

eplanit• 10 years ago

Along with how automation and robots will affect other aspects of our lives, one can wonder how it will be involved in our moral and physical perspectives on sex. To the point, for moral and health reasons, will people be drawn increasingly to robot sex?[1][2] (links maybe NSFW)

[1] http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/robot-sex-may-be-co...

[2] http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/lovesick-cyborg/2016/03/10...

morazow• 10 years ago

It is legal in some European countries, for example, Germany and Netherlands.

In Germany, they pay income tax and charge VAT for their services.

germanier• 10 years ago

To be fair, (at least in Germany) it was taxed even before it was legalized. To make tax collection easier they even created a simplified procedure (Düsseldorfer Verfahren) which is still in partial use today.

Just because you do something illegal doesn't mean you shouldn't pay taxes. I think there is something similar in the US, where you can "take the fifth" on a tax return. Kansas even taxes illegal drugs and requires dealers to purchase and affix "drug stamps" to them.

stretchwithme• 10 years ago

Like many other things, this should be decided at the neighborhood level.

There are problems allowing it and problems outlawing it. Letting each neighborhood decide will enable those benefitting from this trade to also pay the costs of it. If it does attract crime, they'll need to consider that when they make their decision, tax brothels enough to pay those costs.

There will always be some neighborhoods that allow it. Everybody that wants to engage in this will have a place to do it.

And neighborhoods that don't want it can just levy fines rather than prison sentences. That alone will make people do this in more permissive neighborhoods.

jheriko• 10 years ago

i think the more important question, at least where i am, is if seeking the services is a crime... because it is here, even if prostitution is not.

seems a tad unfair to penalise someone who can be viewed as being exploited and a victim on either side of it to me. some women/men are desperate for money and others are desperate for sex... and the only harm these people do to the world is to each other.

(... and the ones who do it for other reasons are probably in need of help imo)

(EDIT: actually after some reflection, all of them are. its a sad state of affairs on both sides. :( )

seany• 10 years ago

darawk2• 10 years ago

As with all headlines that end in a question mark, the answer here is pretty obviously 'no'.

This is one of those issues where intelligent people cannot disagree. If you think prostitution should be illegal, you are stupid. Categorically and unequivocally. There are precisely zero valid arguments in favor of its criminalization.

ams6110• 10 years ago

You are quite obviously wrong, as most cultures and societies have made it illegal, and have done so for a long long time. So there are many many smart people who think it should be so. Whether their reasons are valid in your mind or not is irrelevant.

darawk2• 10 years ago

You seem to be arguing that something has been done in the past or is widespread, therefore smart people agree that it is a good idea. Which, after even a brief moment of reflection, you should realize is not a very fruitful line of reasoning.

pinkskip• 10 years ago

edoceo• 10 years ago

throwaway34416• 10 years ago

I'm 22 and paying for sex is a routine of mine. Most countries in Europe have it decriminalized and in some it's even regulated, thankfully.

Let's see, why I pay for sex?

  1) I'm in the bottom 20% in attractiveness.
  1.1) Tinder and real life take work.
  1.2) Low market value -> Low value offers.
  1.3) Return on investment is negative.
  2) It's not that expensive
  2.1) 60 euros -> top 10% for 30 minutes
  2.2) Time and effort. Better write python a couple hours.
  3) Selection
  3.1) Age, physical characteristics, services, "personality"..
  3.2) There are forums/webpages with reviews by other customers.
  4) Not interested in relationships.
  4.1) I don't even know in which country I'm going to live next year.
  4.2) I expect to do that when older.

I haven't been with a woman that didn't had other options or was being trafficked. Or at least I think so. The experiences vary but were mostly good, certainly better than randomly hooking up in a party. It's not a solution if you have emotional needs though, or at least not a good one. But if you want to relax and live/play a little, paid sex is a solid yes.

Should Prostitution Be a Crime?

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