College is a waste of time and money for kids

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cfb4d37a-d907-11dc-8b22-0000779fd2ac.html

by ranparas • 18 years ago

34 69 18 years ago

myoung8• 18 years ago

I agree with him, but I don't think the alternatives he proposed are reasonable for most people.

I was with him right until he say not to travel. Travel is the single biggest step in developing a proper perspective of life in this world, and what part you'll choose to play in the future. At 25, you can tell if someone has traveled or not by having a 15 minute conversation with them.

The traveled ones are always much more rational in thought, and open in mind, and aware of the possibilities. Non traveled folk tend to be more rigid, narrow in though and unable to grasp concepts that may be foriegn to their history.

As to the rest, my biggest beef is that he assumes all people are born entrepreneurs - even if he says otherwise. One must remember that although college can be a bore for a bright individual, it can be a saving grace for a person that is, well average.

mpc• 18 years ago

I'm sorry but I disagree. Traveling is certainly something that is worthwhile, but it's hardly the determining factor in one's personal development that you're making it out to be.

I've been to a lot of places, and I still value things like the books that I've read, personal relationships, real experience etc etc a lot more.

Sometimes all travel contributes to is pretentiousness.

ardit333• 18 years ago

sorry, but taking a cruise to bahamas,or a two weeks trip to europe doesn't make one a "well traveled" being. Living in a different country for a while, it will open you a whole world of differnt perspective, and experience things that you just don't when visiting a place for a few days.

yes, just the fact of knowing a foreign language, (well), tells a lot about a person.

ranparas• 18 years ago

Travel will expose you to new experiences. How much your learn and imbibe from those experiences, depends on individual personality.

curi5• 18 years ago

the internet has made travel obsolete :)

curi5• 18 years ago

come travel and downmod me to my face ;)

kingkongrevenge• 18 years ago

It's pretty easy to traipse through Europe and not learn jack shit if you're poorly read. I've met a lot of total ignoramus ex-pats who've been living overseas for years.

I don't even think spending time overseas in the industrialized west is much of an eye-opener. Appalachia would probably be just as much of an experience for a lot of people.

albertcardona• 18 years ago

Who says travel says also learning other languages and cultures: get used to changing frame and realizing your own cultural assumptions in human communication.

The horrible problem here is that unless one has lived abroad for a while in a country with a different language and culture than one's own, there's no way a person can see value in it. But if you don't have that experience, you will always drag behind those who do.

Tichy• 18 years ago

Problem is, travel often seems so passive to me. Maybe I could get something out of it by blogging about my experience, but other than that? I already have a kind of feeling that the world is a weird and wonderful place. I don't really take western lifestyle for granted. There are plenty of problems to be solved where I live - what do I really gain from visiting some poor weirdo countries, except for some unpleasant diseases?

yters3• 18 years ago

People are irrational because of prejudices. The best way to overcome prejudices is to live in a culture with a significantly different view of the world than your own. Plus, you get to go a step further and learn there are reasons behind prejudices, instead of just rejecting a belief and its connotations because the believer is prejudiced.

So, I think living in different parts of the world is only indirectly useful. The important thing is to live in a new environment among people with a different culture.

krschultz3• 18 years ago

Hes off the mark by a long shot.

Is college right for everyone? No, and on both sides of the equation. A very small group of people are too smart for it, get too constrained by it, etc. There is a much larger group of people who are not smart enough for it, or don't work hard enough to get there. For everyone else, it makes sense. To say that you won't make up the money (and he says 200,000 - 400,000, that is a 50,000 to 100,000 a year college! There are only about dozen that expensive! I'm in one of the top 20 in the country and it would cost me 120,000 for 4 years coming from out of state, if not for a scholarship), is ludicrous. I'm going to work from the age of 25 to the age of 65 unless I do something spectacular and can retire early, which MOST PEOPLE DON'T. So for most people it is 120,000 divided by 40 years, or $3,000 a year more they would have to make in order for it to be worth it, obviously most college grads are better off money wise if they go. And staying in state is even cheaper. His point is kind of ridiculous, just because he didn't like college, doesn't mean that he should recommend against it. I sure feel bad for his kids who will be trying to make it big on their new version of MySpace when all their friends graduate and start making real money.

falsestprophet2• 18 years ago

I still have not learned a lot in college, but I leaned enough about the time-value of money to understand your analysis is deeply flawed.

krschultz3• 18 years ago

Of course it is horribly inaccurate but his numbers are pulled out of thin air. If you could find a way to justify skipping college economically, for real people, I'm all ears. In fact money wise, college is one of the best investments you can ever make, there are countless studies to back that up. I really don't see what the big rush to skip college is. Do you really think that starting a company 4 years sooner is that big deal? If so then your business is going to fail because it is dependent on ONE idea rather than the skill of the people involved. A good group of people will find a new idea when need be, the world has plenty of problems to solve. So what are you in a rush to do? Work? You have all your life to do that. I think that the experiance of college when you are 18-22 is a thing you either do or you don't, there is no going back to do it later. On the other hand, you can start a business, travel, learn things, and work for the rest of your life. College is what you make of it, no one forces you to do anything here. I can't imagine being bored, I have about twice as much I would like to do as I have time for, the people who say it is a "waste of time" are ones with no initiative.

rcoder3• 18 years ago

$50,000 per year is not actually that high in the grand scheme of things as a total cost to attend a private college, since most undergrads depend heavily on their parents for financial support.

If you subtract a base tuition of $35,000 from that, you're left with $15,000 per year as total living expenses. That's barely over $1200, and has to cover not only rent and food, but textbooks, computers, and other costs of campus life. Even assuming your kid doesn't do much partying, or need access to a car, $15k is hardly a lavish annual budget.

krschultz3• 18 years ago

Yea, but that would assume a base tuition of 35,000, which there is no reason to spend. Go to a state school if the money is an issue, out of state to Penn State, considered one of the more expensive state schools, is 24,000 a year. That leaves 26,000 a year for living expenses. In state is even less. At my school it is 18,000 out of state and 7,000 in state and we're top 25 nationwide in both of my majors. My apartment is one of the nicer ones on campus and it is $700 a month, plus $500 for food and expenses, plus 2,000 for books and supplies, I'm barely up to 35,000 and that is with generous allouances and an expensive apartment. In state you could be doing it for 20,000 a year. The people who claim college is outrageous are far from the ground level. I don't know anyone who couldn't work it out by taking loans and going to a state school, everyone quotes these private schools and their prices but that is a whole different ball game. The reality is that college is not all that expensive in the short term, and it is nothing in the long term.

abossy• 18 years ago

Agreed--the finances claim is outrageous.

What people don't understand is that there is SO, SO MUCH MONEY out there!!! You just have to find it!!! There are scholarship, grants, loans, work study, tuition waivers, in all shapes, sizes or flavors. If you really, truly want to go to college, then money should NOT be your impediment.

Retric3• 18 years ago

Your assuming everyone get's out in 4 years.

He said 200 - 400k which IMO is not unreasonable at the high end. Tuition @ $44 per student + living expenses @ 15k/year + lost wages @ 21k / year = 80k / year * 5 years = 400k.

IMO the problem is at the low end if you take 3 years to get out of a state school with a free ride you are only talking about (10k living expenses – free room and board + 21k lost wages) * 3 = ~93k.

icky• 18 years ago

Where is this "21k lost wages" figure coming from?

I guarantee you, if I were only forgoing a wage of 21k/year, I'd finish school in a heartbeat!

The problem for a lot of people on this forum might be that they can no longer justify college economically: it won't improve your earnings if you're already making a good living, so it becomes more of a wouldn't-it-be-nice sort of thing, an expensive recreational activity to maybe finish someday after retirement.

josefresco• 18 years ago

I've found that college is great for the 'pluggers' in life. Those kids you remember from high school who asked question after boring question and spent hours on their home work while you spent class time hacking your graphing calculator and spent study hall exploring your high school's network.

Sure they got better grades than you, but instead of an A on your test you got a B- and worked 10x less to get it.

College is also great for the socially motivated who love to party, 'hook up' and generally spend the entire day trying to sleep the previous night's craziness off and plan for the upcoming night debauchery.

ardit333• 18 years ago

Believe it or not, you can learn, get decent grades, party and get laid, and have scholarhips all at the same time.

Those people that skip this, are soreley missing a great experience of their life.

Remember, work will be there for the rest of your life. Don't just rush into it. From 24 to 64, that's 40 years or working for most people. you can start your startup just as well as 25, as you could at 20, but probably you would be much smarter at that age.

curi5• 18 years ago

it amuses me that people advocate the importance of college -- supposedly an educational institution -- based in part on parties and sex. and in part based on avoiding work.

if you can pay for college, you could pay less to not work or go to college. and still party and have sex, if that's what you care about.

cstejerean• 18 years ago

I'll agree with the not rushing into work part. But I don't agree that you need to waste 4 years of your life on college. If you find it's not worth it for you: LEAVE. 4 years is a lot of time to waste, especially during your 20s.

henning2• 18 years ago

I've taught myself math and computer science topics by myself from books, and I've learned math and computer science in classes, and I can say that you make much faster progress and have far fewer foggy, unclear areas if you have access to a professor.

That's assuming you really take advantage of the teaching assistants, professor, and books out there. If you just party and take sociology classes, sure, college is going to mostly be a waste.

msteigerwalt2• 18 years ago

If by access to a professor, you mean someone who knows the material extremely well and can help you with questions or steer you in the right direction, you can get that for free from IRC.

I've been leeching off my friends' college educations for years, and although I'd agree that it would be impossible to learn some things (like advanced programming topics) strictly from books, someone who knows the material and exactly how to explain things to me is just as good as a traditional instructor.

It's also better training for the real world, where I don't have time to take a course on everything I need to know.

curi5• 18 years ago

i agree. btw it's possible to get actual professors to give you advice and help learning stuff, if you contact them and ask interesting questions, or make friends with them.

henning2• 18 years ago

for free off IRC? not the things I wanted to learn.

thinkcomp• 18 years ago

I could, and did, write a book (http://www.aarongreenspan.com/authoritas.html) about this subject, namely, why the American educational system is broken. I found college to be particularly difficult, but even so, I still think that James Altucher is wrong. Not only is his analysis wrong, but his facts are wrong. Unbelievably expensive though it may be, I know of no college that costs $400,000 over four years. Students are not cleanly divided into "the well-rounded generalists" and "the focused entrepreneurs." There are considerable virtues to liberal arts education, even if Mr. Altucher is too dense and narrow-minded to appreciate them.

whacked_new• 18 years ago

I am repeatedly amazed at what kinds of people leave comments here.

copenja• 18 years ago

Look. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to live.

People need to stop focusing on the black and white and become aware of the greyscale.

omarish• 18 years ago

thank you.

falsestprophet2• 18 years ago

That is ABSOLUTELY correct!

eusman• 18 years ago

until a great hack comes along and get that rgb in your life

wumi• 18 years ago

there. is. no. box.

iamelgringo• 18 years ago

I thought it was, "There is no spoon"

Electro• 18 years ago

From personal experience, you can't get hired to a news paper or magazine unless you've been published. Yet going to college or university doesn't get you published, teaches you to write in a way editors don't like, and they make you arrogant.

I got a job at 16 by sending out letters, and after I'd learnt the editors style he was saying I was the best writer there and amazed at my age. Right now, if reviewing hadn't destroyed my love for video games and movies, I have little doubt I could have been at a news paper for two years, and I'm only twenty. Essentially I could have been working as a writer for the entire time I "should" have been in university learning "journalism".

yters3• 18 years ago

People need to focus on goals.

eloisius• 18 years ago

Great piece. Helps re-encourage me that I'm not throwing my life away.

rcoder3• 18 years ago

I think most of the comments here are missing the key argument in this article: namely that in addition to college being a poor fit for many potential students, there are some much better, more productive ways that young people could spend the time in the years immediately following high school.

The suggestions to encourage your kid to practice one skill, or start a business, are spot-on, at least from an economic POV. Learning a trade and having some business experience are much more effective at increasing your future potential earnings than a liberal arts education.

Personally, I dropped out after my freshman year to go work for a startup I've had a great time working in IT since then, and consistently out-earned my friends who stayed in school, even now that they've had 4-6 years in the workforce to catch up on experience.

That being said, I think that there is still a strong argument to be made for people eventually attending college. I still look forward to college as something I'll do in the future as a sort of "working vacation." I.e., just like faculty take a sabbatical to focus on their research, or spend time with their family, I hope to take a couple of years off to devote myself to intense, full-time study of some subject other than computers.

timr• 18 years ago

Oh, blah. I'll grant you that people (in this country) would be better served by slowing down a bit, but I wouldn't encourage a high school kid to start a business instead of going to college.

Maybe it's a good idea for a kid to work on his "startup" when he's barely old enough to shave, but probably not. The chances of success aren't higher when you're young and under-educated (likely the opposite), and you'll be squandering the one time in your life when you're allowed to get away with things and make mistakes.

Don't want to go to college? Fine. Travel the world. Have adventures. Play in a band. Make friends. Meet women. You're not likely to get the chance later, and you'll be a more compelling, charismatic person for the experience. Then go to college.

Once you've graduated, you'll have the rest of your life to start companies (and the charisma and friends you've picked up will help you on your way).

dusklight2• 18 years ago

College gives kids thousands of other kids to hang out with, at a critical point in their lives when they are just entering into adulthood.

College gives kids a chance to create their own social identity, as seen through the eyes of their peers, rather than their parents.

If you are a social recluse, and spend most of your college years hiding behind your computer screen, then yeah, you might as well not go.

If you recognize that human beings are herd animals, and that in order to learn how to be a leader in the herd, you need to have a herd to practice on ...

I learnt some really important life lessons in college, most of them outside of class. I heartily recommend it. Challenge your expectations of what you can and can't do. You may be surprised by how much more you can grow.

pchristensen2• 18 years ago

True. It's easy for me to look back and say that college wasn't that useful, but that's because I have the maturity and experience that came from going to college and then leaving for the real world! You can bet for darn sure I'd get more out of college if I went back now.

yummyfajitas• 18 years ago

>I learnt some really important life lessons in college, most of them outside of class.

What makes you think you would not have learned the same things (or equally valuable things) if you did not go to college, but did stop living with your parents?

dusklight2• 18 years ago

As yters points out correctly, the real world is not like a college environment, where you are surrounded by other people your own age.

There is something about being surrounded by other people just as clueless, inexperienced, and eager to experiment as you, that stimulates the creation of convention-defying ideas.

That said I would like to think I did not need college to become an intelligent, aware, adult. But it sure did help and it sure was fun.

yters3• 18 years ago

In my very limited experience the normal work world isn't a lot like college or public school, where all my peers were people my own age. I think learning to socialize with older people is much more useful.

msteigerwalt2• 18 years ago

I like how the article suggests that the cost of developing a viral Facebook application is $200 for outsourcing to India.

I agree with the premise of the article, though. Except for the $400,000 price tag. Where does that come from?

menloparkbum• 18 years ago

I don't think he goes far enough. Looking back, my university experience was indeed sort of a waste of time. However, the time I spent in college was orders of magnitude better than the previous four years of high school.

-edit-

Ok, I just closely read the piece instead of just skimming it. I do think college can be a waste of time for many people. However, the suggestion to instead outsource Facebook/MySpace application development to India is ridiculous. Also, what college costs $400,000? Ivy League tops out at about $40K/yr. UC Berkeley is about $9K per year.

wallflower• 18 years ago

I read an article once that suggested that colleges and universities are part of a mafia-type organization that extorts parents/students to pay high tuition fees...otherwise the student won't be able to get a decent white-collar job as an adult (the whole college degree required deal)

pchristensen2• 18 years ago

Nah, there's just not a good way to rate and rank potential job candidates without actually taking the time to get to know them. Finishing college is just an imperfect proxy for being smart and working hard, and companies use it as a baseline because it puts the onus on students/employees to attain. If there was a way for companies to more accurately rank candidates (without actually requiring more work on the company's part), they'd use that instead. Universities are more than happy to facilitate this.

NoBSWebDesign• 18 years ago

As you peeps have pointed out, 400k is ridiculous. I go to an expensive private college, and it's on the order of 120 for 4 years (though it's actually a 5-year school).

And if his kids are really entrepreneurial, as he claims, then they'll have the motivation to apply for scholarships like I did. I have received absolutely no financial help from my parents, and yet have accumulated very little debt.

I have learned most of my knowledge by teaching myself, and generally goof off during class if I even go (and no, that doesn't put me into the B group). But I've also been exposed to an incredible variety of people and built a huge network of friends and acquaintances in almost every industry.

Another point he seems to be missing is that to make a Facebook or Myspace app go viral, you need an initial network of users, typically your own friends. I hope his kids have fun trying to promote their app to all their high school friends who have gone off to college and lost contact.

I think what makes me most upset about this article, though, is that he's not using his views to make his own decisions, he's using them to make his kids' decisions. I feel really bad for his kids.

Retric3• 18 years ago

A) When you look at the high numbers you need to ignore scholarships as many don't qualify. B) Its a 5 year school so 30 * 5 = 150k not 120k C) You could be making a lot of money if you worked instead of spending all that time in school.

Finally, you could get significant returns if you invested your first years tuition by the end of 5 years.

cdr2• 18 years ago

The fifth year is quite possibly a year of work-study, like in my degree. Either that or adding a second degree/masters, which is going to increase earnings potential hugely.

I have seen statistics before about how having a degree positively influences your earnings potential, but I have yet to see anything but "feelings" from those claiming going to college has a negative effect.

If we're going on anecdotes, I seriously doubt I could have made that much going into work straight out of high school, and I seriously doubt there are many people that could.

I would bet there's a more people that could qualify for significant scholarships than could make significant money going straight into work.

tlrobinson• 18 years ago

If all you want to get out of college is to learn to program or other "trade" skills, then yeah it's probably a waste of time, but that's not what college is all about (unless you go to a vocational school)

aswanson• 18 years ago

Seriously. Imagine if children treated kindergarten with the same attitude that some people treat college with, the trade school approach to education. They'd never get off the dime.

geebee3• 18 years ago

This is a great article, even though I disagree with most of it. I think it's a great article because the conventional wisdom about college does need to be challenged. Just like the notion that you have to attend a prestigious college to be successful needs to be debunked, the notion that you have to attend college at all should be challenged.

I'd agree wholeheartedly with anyone who said that college should not be a default choice. There are all kinds of amazing opportunities for learning now that don't require a degree. He had me while he was arguing that college can be a big waste of time for a lot of people - but he starts to lose me when he starts to argue against college.

Personally, I have my doubts about anyone learning advanced math or physics without an intellectual environment similar to the one you'll get at college. I learned from my peers in a study group at least as much as from my professors. I suppose you don't strictly have to be enrolled - and maybe you could view webcasts and form a general study group outside the university - but that would be an argument against a formal degree, not an argument against a college education.

geebee3• 18 years ago

One thing to add - he's not totally off base about the 400K price tag. If you could earn 50K/year as a high school grad, that's 200K in lost earnings (though it would be taxed). Stanford's tuition is about 40K/year now, right? So there's another 160K. Not too far off (I wouldn't count living expenses, because those would be incurred regardless of whether you were in college).

A high school grad with no skills isn't going to earn 50K a year as a dishwasher. But someone smart enough to get through Computer Science at MIT might easily blow through the 50K/year estimate. So the opportunity cost could actually be much higher than 400K.

cdr2• 18 years ago

I think including potential wages is at least a little weaselly. Besides the fact that you can work while going to school, get scholarships, etc, you could just as easily say that any lost earning potential while taking classes should quickly be made up by the difference in your wages from having a degree.

Even if you do, 50K/year as a high school graduate (at least in the US) is being pretty optimistic. I don't think most of my friends in non-technical programs didn't even make that out of college. The average starting salary for a BS CS grad even is probably still only around 50K.

nextmoveone• 18 years ago

I agree, I'm glad I haven't wasted time on college, learning everything myself has been more beneficial. In certain cases, like that of doctors or lawyers college is essential!

atlacatl• 18 years ago

He says, "I can’t remember anything good coming from my freshman year – other than starting a business with a few of my classmates, which inspired me for subsequent businesses."

So, he found his calling in College? A waste of time? Could he have started this first business without attending college?

dejb2• 18 years ago

So people who live on farms in France don't have the internet? I think he there still might be a flame.

College is a waste of time and money for kids

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