Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

by sdybskiy • 11 years ago

151 123 11 years ago

As a self-taught developer who has had serious success without a college degree, I'm curious. But, why are there only Canadian companies?

cryptojuice• 11 years ago

Also a self-taught developer here. I'm not sure how old you are, but do you worry about how not having a degree might affect your chances of finding work later in your career?

profinger• 11 years ago

I always assumed that experience outweighed degrees at a certain point. At say, 40, what would a degree from 15 years ago matter?

midniteslayr2• 11 years ago

I'm 30 with about 8 years of professional development experience under my belt (including a couple of nice contracts with some respectable companies). Being self-taught has both helped and hindered my career/job searches of late. It's helped get me interviews, because recruiters see the years of experience, and gain some side contracts. It's hindered my career/job searches because everyone assumes I've got a comp sci degree during the interview. I get asked questions that are very specific comp sci questions, and I don't know how to answer them, even though I may have used those concepts in the past.

So, to answer your question, Yes ... and no. I do worry, but I hope to be moving toward a management position (or running my own business) instead of being a code monkey for the rest of my life.

scrabble• 11 years ago

Probably because this was made by Canadians in Toronto according to the page.

sdybskiy9• 11 years ago

As a fellow self-taught developer, I agree. We see the need for showing possibilities that exist without a degree. As for Canadian companies? We’re in Canada and started with the big guys in our own backyard. However, career search can be done on any path for users in pretty much any location. American companies will be added soon with better localization.

zig• 11 years ago

For people nearing the end of high-school, please go to college.

I don't have a degree and have been extremely lucky; I managed to get into middle-management and have been successful.

The problem is that I'm not as "portable" as I would be with a degree - in other words, a layoff or termination could put my lifestyle in jeopardy. As such, I am going back to school at 29.

Get it over with :)

degenerate• 11 years ago

The important thing is to keep learning on your own during the 4 years of college. You're essentially playing the game, going through the motions for the degree. What they teach you in college you probably won't apply to your actual job, so keep learning on your own and teaching yourself new programming languages, tools, and techniques for what you enjoy doing. The degree just opens doors.

Alupis2• 11 years ago

The degree doesn't just open doors, it forces you to learn and be exposed to some things you wouldn't have otherwise.

Sure, we can say taking a Film Study class is a waste of time, but I can tell you from experience that years later, you will look at things in film a little different than before. Would I have sat down on my own and studied film techniques, types of lighting, angles, etc...? Probably not. Does it apply to my career? Well, not directly, other than making the mind think about things a little different.

Without those CS classes forcing you to learn Binary Trees, Shortest Path, Circular Queue, Algorithmic Proofs, etc... how many would sit down on their own and learn them? Probably very few. Will it apply directly to a job? Maybe. It really depends on what type of job you have. Simply "programming" or "developing", then probably not. Engineering a system, then those Priority Queue's probably come in handy.

A lot of arguments settle on the basis that [1]University doesn't teach you anything you couldn't learn already, and/or [2]it doesn't teach job skills.

1) Of course it teaches things you could learn on your own... but would you? It's unlikely.

2) Of course it doesn't teach job skills, University is not a Trade School.

The big take away from University is that it's an experience that enriches your life. It's unlikely you will notice it immediately, but it will impact your life in a positive manner. University shows commitment, and accomplishment.

Dorian-Marie• 11 years ago

I'm 23, left school when 21 and now going back exactly for the same reason.

Without an degree you have to prove yourself harder for every single little thing (resume, visa, job applications, etc.).

verbin2172• 11 years ago

In my personal experience a solid work history is much better than a degree. Once you have it the value of a degree decreases significantly. Its almost entirely redundant. The only problem is you often need the degree to get the work history.

I've also noticed as I start working with people who have their Masters and some with PHDs that people take me seriously. It's like... I must know what I'm talking about. How else would I still be here?

vonmoltke• 11 years ago

Not having a degree does lock you out of some opportunities where HR uses it as a binary checkbox. We can go on and on here about how such policies are stupid and how you wouldn't really want to work at a place like that anyway, but the fact of the matter is not having a degree closes doors. In that sense, there is value to having one.

untog• 11 years ago

Also, as someone who has dealt with visa issues before, it's far, far easier to move around the world if you have a university education. Maybe right now you don't think you'll want to, but it's a tremendous opportunity to have.

xiaoma3• 11 years ago

Money opens those doors even wider. Once you hit a certain level of financial independence, not only is it easy to visit wherever you choose, but permanent residency and even citizenship often become much more straightforward as well.

antidamage• 11 years ago

I'm 37. At my age a degree is completely irrelevant if you have the skill set. In fact, ten years ago I was approached by a university to start my Master's degree, with the missing Bachelor's degree being credited through time spent working in my industry at the time.

The reality of education in America is that it's an expensive tickbox. It verges on being a racket. While you don't want to be the lone rebel being crushed under the wheels of the machine, if you can avoid becoming indentured to the government with a student loan then do yourself a favour and choose not to waste money on education you can just teach yourself.

dopamean2• 11 years ago

I'm 29 and do not have an undergrad degree. I was recently accepted to a well respected masters in computer science program. I declined to go because I'm pretty happy with my career trajectory at the moment and I think taking the time off work to do that would actually be detrimental.

eropple2• 11 years ago

indentured to the government with a student loan

I graduated with under $30K in debt from a state school (with a number of merit scholarships and some but not extensive parental help) and paid it off my second year out of college. One need not take on heavy debt (don't you love the rhetorical phrasing, though? Indentured!) to go to college, and I tend to think that self-styled autodidacts discount the social rounding and educational breadth available at any good university.

dtparr• 11 years ago

At my age a degree is completely irrelevant if you have the skill set.

This is a dangerous thing to say without any qualifiers. It depends on the industry, economic conditions in your area, type/size of company you want to work for, etc.

I've known a couple individuals who had the skills and 20+ years of experience who lost jobs at floundering companies and weren't able to find anything relevant due to a lack of a degree. In both cases, they had a few interviews that were basically "Wow, you're a great fit experience-wise and it like you've worked with the same technologies/processes we use here and some we're hoping to go to. Oh, except we can't hire you for an engineering role unless you have at least a BS. Would you be interested in an hourly maintenance job?"

jschwartzi2• 11 years ago

There's a good 17 years gap that a non-graduate would have to fill. How did you spend your time after you finished high school?

bdg• 11 years ago

All the companies I've ever been interested in never had a problem with my education. One actually asked me to verify I'm a drop-out for their background check =/

marincounty• 11 years ago

I couldn't imagine a tech start-up caring about college--unless it's a big stupid company? Plus--the guys I know without a degree, seem to try a little bit harder? I've always thought if I had the right idea, and funding--would I even bother to hire a college graduate, unless they had a lot of projects/accomplishments under their belt? I would prefer people who worked hard, and didn't have that Little bit of self-entitlement a degree brings.(It's there--it seems to just sneak in somewhere along the line? I have found it gets in the way--sometimes?)

Unless your degree is in the hard sciences, we all know what college entailed; for most of us it was a four years of fun, and the worst day in college was better than working? Hell--I never wanted to leave!(That was before it got so expensive though.)

I sometimes over hear recent graduates in gossip groups(usually after a few cocktails) go on and on about their degree, and college accomplishments; If my upchuck reflex is not irritated--I listen a bit, and ask myself, "I couldn't imagine paying them to do anything?".

That said, if you can swing it; go to college, and I guarantee when you look back, it will be the best years of your life--for the majority of you. While I'm on it--don't let upper division classes scare you. I found them no harder than lower division courses. If for some reason you find yourself wanting to drop out, get a four year degree in anything! Anything! Go to a notoriously easy college like Santa Cruz, or Chico State and get your degree in Spacing Out?

Why, because too many of the idiots out there still think a bachelor's degree is important? Oh, and they love to quote that worn out statistic, that I can't even write anymore. I guess it's still true--so finish and get the diploma? I have a weird feeling federal bankruptcy laws might change in the future, and student loans might become dischargable?

One other thing, that person in college you kinda take for granted--that guy, or girl who you sometimes wonder, "Why do they put up with my antics?"; are not hanging out in bars waiting for you to graduate with open arms!

jlarocco2• 11 years ago

Agreed. When people say degrees are overrated and there are too many people with "useless" degrees, they're not talking about science and engineering degrees.

Skipping a degree in CS is just making things harder for yourself. Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree.

delecti2• 11 years ago

Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree.

If the options are 4 years making okay money or 4 years likely accumulating debt, after which you're at the same income level either way, why would anyone in their right mind go to college?

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, I just think that that's not the best way to highlight it. For example, college is quite useful for the connections and career placement assistance.

madeofpalk• 11 years ago

I think it's also worth noting that I think there is a huge cultural difference when it comes to the value of a degree.

In IT in Australia, I've never had a problem with lack of degree, and I'm doing pretty well for myself - getting paid a decent amount of money in a place I love working in. I'm involved in a hiring process for new developers and I cannot remember the last time we've looked at or considered their educational background.

xiaoma3• 11 years ago

Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree.

Wouldn't the best case scenario be more like founding Apple, MS or FB or becoming the president of YC?

seansmccullough• 11 years ago

* But pick a major that will pay for itself, and try not to rack up $50k in student loans.

Alupis2• 11 years ago

* But pick a major that will pay for itself, and try not to rack up $50k in student loans

I think this is a societal issue rather than an education issue.

We're so quick to encourage people to achieve a degree in whatever makes them happy, even say Art History or Medieval European History, knowing full well that the prospects of gaining a decent paying job after school is practically zero.

How does that Art History major repay a $30K student loan when they can realistically only get a $30K a year salaried job?

Should't we as a society encourage people to major in things that will pay off in the end? Or instead deny loans to degree programs that statistically are turning out far too many candidates for a very small field (leading to massive unemployment for that degree program)?

someear• 11 years ago

I think blanket advice for everyone is probably not the right approach. Getting a college degree is likely the best path to financial success for most people, but definitely isn't for all.

For some, the opportunity cost of investing time/money into an education prevents them from learning more through some alternate means (i.e. starting your own company, apprenticeship with key individuals, etc.), and may lead to more economic success. Probably not true for the vast majority of people, but definitely true for some.

rayiner• 11 years ago

For people nearing the end of high-school, please go to college.

Also, at that age you really don't know what you may want to do with your life. At 19 I seriously considered dropping out of college to go full-time at the startup I was working at. At 25 I decided I wanted to get into a different career entirely, one where a college degree was required (as is the case in pretty much every white collar profession besides programming).

unimpressive3• 11 years ago

Four years is quite a bit of time getting things over with. Everybody likes to talk about the memories of going to college and how much I should expect to enjoy it. I don't expect that, I expect to be absolutely miserable for four years. A more fanatical past version of me would almost rather die.

And on a certain level I think there's definitely a spite involved here. I know that going will permanently invalidate me from attributing my success to anything else, and it will help empower these institutions to keep intruding into lives and charging people outrageous fees through what is essentially a collectively enforced racket. Going will be existentially painful, so I'm avoiding it for as long as possible.

msutherl• 11 years ago

This is extraordinarily cynical. There are many different colleges in different places, different majors, and different lifestyles you can construct that ultimately get you through the machine and out the other end after 4 years. If you can't find a configuration that works for you, you will probably be miserable anywhere doing anything.

FWIW, I went to university in a large city outside of the US and basically never went to class, worked in a research lab the whole time, and spent a lot of time partying. Still, it was a stressful time and I have a lot of regrets, but I can't blame the environment ... I chose to live the way that I did. Ultimately my life isn't so different now than it was then except I make more money and I figured out the stress thing.

Other people go to tightly knit schools in small towns that provide a comprehensive 'experience,' or play sports and hang out in frat houses. Perhaps this is what you think college is like for everyone. Trust me: it isn't. Choose what you think will work best for you (hint: location is the most important factor) and make it work.

mikekchar2• 11 years ago

As another person who detests classes, exams, etc, I can feel your pain. University/College is useful for computer science, though. One of the problems in industry is that there are a huge number of cowboy coders who dismiss all of the important things they learned (or not!) at school. The number of times I've run across people who said things like, "Statistics is a complete waste of time", and then "benchmarked" their app by running it once...

So, basically, what I'm saying is that on the one hand working in industry will give you important skills that are hard to learn anywhere else. You need to learn to read and write code, and you have to learn idiomatic ways of programming, and you have to do a lot of it. You need to learn how to work with others and how to effectively prioritise work. You can't learn this at school. On the other hand, you will be in an environment which may stunt your growth because it is often dominated by people who think that being able to write code is the only valuable thing a programmer needs.

School is an academic environment with (hopefully!) a focus on academic goals. You will need these things to claw your way beyond the mediocrity that pervades our industry. It's not that you can't learn it anywhere else, but it is often hard to understand what is important and what isn't unless you can surround yourself with people who have an academic focus.

I would gouge my eyes out before I would go back to school again, but I am very grateful that I did go. I encourage you to either go to school or devote yourself to finding alternative means of learning all of the academic things you will need. Doing it by yourself is much more difficult, but by no means impossible.

unethical_ban• 11 years ago

I do believe that University should not be required for many fields which currently do.

I also believe University costs too much for many, and that textbooks are an outright scam.

I also believe a broad post-secondary education is a wonderful thing to have, and that if you can do undergrad full time (doing a real "job" as little as is required to supplement a beer/computer fund), you'll find that having your full time "job" being to learn new things and meet new people is an amazing gift. Throw in the opportunities of studying abroad (that I didn't take advantage of - do it in the first two years) and University is a great experience.

multiplegeorges2• 11 years ago

Nice looking site.

What did doing this in Meteor get you? Why did you go with a framework that focuses primarily on real-time interactions/data streaming?

It seems to me this could easily be a Rails app with some simple Angular components for the Filter Career Paths bit. But, perhaps this betrays my ignorance of the versatility of Meteor...

sdybskiy9• 11 years ago

Thanks for the feedback! Me being a 21 year old developer who didn't have his hands in the mud when all the big guys were in play (Rails, Django, etc), I went for a new framework like Meteor to see where my self-learning abilities can benefit me. So far it's been great in terms of the speed we can develop at and the transparency between front end and back-end (no missed import calls anywhere to crash the app). Meteor, to early adopters, and people who haven't played around with it too much, who also have a rich background in other frameworks, might seem like not the go-to but for us it's been great so far.

multiplegeorges2• 11 years ago

Cool, thanks for the background. Good luck with the site.

Pharaoh2• 11 years ago

Is the scrolling lag because of MeteorJS or is that the dev's fault?

sdybskiy9• 11 years ago

Can you be a little more specific about the bug, I'll take the blame.

skylark• 11 years ago

The scroll lag is primarily caused by the top navigation bar's fade-on-scroll effect and the large background image. Remove both of those and the scroll lag disappears.

sdybskiy9• 11 years ago

Thanks for the feedback. Background image is now at ~300kb. is it still occurring if you refresh?

luisivan• 11 years ago

Amazing, I love these kind of initiatives. It was the missing step to fix some insecurities when taking your own way and not getting a diploma

thegreatpeter• 11 years ago

It's not working right now but I think it's a fantastic idea. I don't think a college education will matter as much as it used to in the computing world. I know several successful people without a CS degree (myself included) or a degree period and they are doing fine.

grardb2• 11 years ago

I really like this. It reminds me of Mr. Money Mustache's "50 Jobs over $50,000 - Without a Degree":

[Part 1] http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000...

[Part 2] http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/05/50-jobs-over-50000...

Quick question: How did you get pagination working? I haven't built anything big in Meteor, but I did go through the Discover Meteor book, and it said that Meteor doesn't lend itself well to pagination, so that you should use infinite scrolling. Does pagination break if the database is updated, or is it not reactive, or am I missing something?

sdybskiy9• 11 years ago

I am using Flow Router https://github.com/kadirahq/flow-router to route the app. And this is the package I'm using for pagination https://atmospherejs.com/miguelalarcos/flow-router-paginatio.... So far it hasn't let me down (there are a few bugs with the subscriptions on each individual page) but if you play around with the work style filter you'll see the collection reactivity and how it's reflected on the subscription and pagination. Thanks for your feedback! Waiting for Meteor to support pagination natively.

grardb2• 11 years ago

Thanks for the tip! I actually wanted to build something in Meteor a while ago, but couldn't figure out how to set up pagination (and infinite scrolling just seemed awkward in that specific case). It's nice to see that there are ways to get it working.

sergiotapia• 11 years ago

My website also uses FlowRouter and flow-router-pagination. If you want to check out the source and see how it works, see here: https://github.com/sergiotapia/trovemarketplace

srehnborg• 11 years ago

Great interface! Very clean and I like the career path aspect to it.

YogeeKnows• 11 years ago

I'm working on my meteor app too. Where are you hosting it? Can you provide more details on the deployment and how much monthly this costs you to keep it running?

sdybskiy9• 11 years ago

We are hosting on Modulus. When you sign up, you get a $15 credit which can last you the first month but it all depends on how many servos you need to scale your app. Other great places to host is Heroku. Modulus was a lot easier to set up since it supports Meteor apps out of the box.

Asparagirl• 11 years ago

Beautiful design. Clean, friendly colors, easy to read. Nice job!

mkoryak• 11 years ago

why is "lead android developer" the only software related career path?

what happened to just "software engineer" ?

imslavko• 11 years ago

I think a lot of career paths on the site are showing the ultimate goal, and then a "path" to it, the career ladder.

valgaze• 11 years ago

Sidestepping the merits of the go/no-go college discussion-- there are a lot of nice touches.

Check out the translate button: English -> French: http://imgur.com/a/N4U9t

At first I wondered why there was French but then I saw Toronto =)

hitekker• 11 years ago

One of those ideas, which if not executed well, could be misleading and/or condescending. I was pleasantly surprised.

Also very happy to see that it was not filled with Software based jobs.

markdown• 11 years ago

I had to close the tab as i couldn't scroll. Fuck new tech that doesn't work.

obblekk2• 11 years ago

where do people get that kind of styling for buttons? i certainly can't find it in bootstrap

sdybskiy9• 11 years ago

I used some custom css for those

obblekk2• 11 years ago

well done. looks really slick.

neovive• 11 years ago

Very nice! Coincidently, I've been researching Meteor this past week for a new website as an alternative to my current Laravel stack. Meteor is very exciting and I'm drawn to the Isomorphic JS concept. However, I decided to hold off for now after learning more about the issues with search engine crawling, large initial downloads and difficulty in deployment. Most of these concerns are on the Meteor roadmap, so I am eagerly awaiting future updates.

Meteor is definitely enticing, with it's upcoming Galaxy deployment tool and React/Angular support. It's a very exciting, albeit, fast-faced time for webdev.

ErikRogneby3• 11 years ago

My quick 2 minute clicking around critique:

1. No search? A plumber is one one the best paid impossible-to-outsource-overseas jobs you can get without a college degree. Coming to the site I immediately wanted to search for it and have that be my point of entry to discovering how the site works. A known reference point. I had no desire to fiddle with those sliders.

2. Union jobs, a.k.a. "the trades". Not college but they have a clear progression and pay is fairly well documented. (a filter for union?)

3. pay is regional. Union jobs for example pay different depending on location. (see #2)

4. on the career path view make the breadcrumb dots clickable. https://raiseyourflag.com/career-path/virtual-assistant/virt... - text is clickable, so should be the dots on the line above.

chinpunkanpun• 11 years ago

Founder or Raise Your Flag here. Thanks for the feedback. (#1-3) Completely agree. Trades are missing from the site and are much needed. One reason we started with the paths that we started with is simply because there was no blueprint for those paths. Trades are understood and (at least here in Canada) get a ton of support from the government and push within the school system. We will be adding them very soon.

#4. Agreed. This will be fixed ASAP. Thanks!

stephen-mw• 11 years ago

From time to time I think about university apart from academics. I went to a state school and left w/ around $15k in student loan debt, but made some of the best memories of my life.

Those are the kinds of experiences money can never buy you again. No sports car later in life will ever bring you that kind of fulfillment.

sbuttgereit• 11 years ago

I'm seeing huge amounts of commentary about going to college or not. Here's my take and experience for what it's worth, as well as a general response to some of the comments I'm seeing.

1) There is no one size fits all answer to the question is college worth it. Depending on what career you intend to pursue it could be required (i.e. try being a medical doctor without a degree) or silly (music composition degree for a non-academic role).

2) Most HR recruiters and certain 'this-is-what-all-the-other-managers-do' hiring manager types do care about the degree. Without it you will not be likely to get in the door. However, consider if these are the kinds of people you want to work for/with. The other type of hiring professional where the degree matters is the manager that wants 'only people from Stanford (Columbia, Harvard, etc)' or 'only Ivy League'... then the degree only matters if it's from one of those (obviously).

3) Be honest with yourself. We are not equal all equal and facing reality will help you better make choices. If you are brighter, more intelligent, better skilled, more highly productive, and better with self-promotion than the majority of people you know/encounter the college degree (and expense thereof) will often times not be worth it. There are other more effective ways to prove your worth. If you are much more average compared to your competitors, or less interested in proving your worth in terms of career, then the degree will open options that aren't readily open to your more marketable peers; however you will also be competing with a greater number of people in the same boat. Being average or not career driven doesn't make you bad, it's just a consideration.

4) Any job you get you will be competing with others. That competition will be more important than the degree once you're inside. A degree can get you in some doors, but once you're in it will be all about performance. If it's not, you may want to question organizational effectiveness in the business. As your career progresses, the degree will matter less and less and experience/achievement more and more.

5) A good job is one that you enjoy doing and that pays for your desired lifestyle. It's not what your parents wanted you to do or society for that matter. And not all of them require degrees. Not all of them are behind a keyboard or a suitable for telecommuting. raiseyourflag.com looks young, but has some interesting ideas in regard to careers. But there are others touting (http://profoundlydisconnected.com/) that there are good jobs with good pay that society (stupidly) tends to look down on. Don't let the opinion of others determine your course of action.

As for me... I have no degree. Despite that, I've managed to be in fairly senior information technology management positions throughout much of my career. I've been a consultant in the professional services group of business systems company and for the past several years I've run my own tiny boutique consultancy with clients ranging from M&A/Finance to frozen meat distribution to mobile app start-ups. More recently I've been doing much more hands-on software development work and enjoying the change. I tend to make as much or more money than the majority of my fully credentialed peers. I'm mid-40s and, true, I do have some college (music composition focused), but the lack of a degree has not stopped me from achieving what I want in career. Anyway, my two bits.

ghughes• 11 years ago

This is excellent. I'd love to see something like this for college degrees too.

_djhrtmn• 11 years ago

I clicked through a few careers, tried to get back to HN, back button didn't work.

joshmn5• 11 years ago

I went to school and dropped out twice — Caltech and Georgetown. I think I maybe have 20 credit hours under my belt? I don't even know.

I'm now 24. I've done quite okay for myself. On paper, I'm not that appealing — non-violent/non-drug related felonies, dropped out of two very highly-regarded schools ("there must be something wrong here"), and some baggage from when I was a child ("mommy/daddy issues") that still sneak up on me every now and then, which have just as occasionally impacted my professional life.

But I made it. I'm a rare breed and I'm thankful. If I would have added a college degree to my life's work, it would be one less strike against me. A strike that I wouldn't have to prove myself for or against.

My advice: Anyone who is at or nearing the end of their high school career, please go to college. Two years at a community college, and then two years wherever you want to go. ~$70k and you're done.

While you're on HN, you're in a social circle of where it's not abnormal for people to be successful without a college degree. In the real world, however, this number is much slimmer than it's made out to be here.

That said, don't think that all you need is education either. A diploma is a piece of paper that shows you followed a curriculum, bought someone a new Mercedes, and slaved away for countless hours on end. Your battle doesn't end there — experience in the real world goes a lot further than you think it does.

SomeCallMeTim2• 11 years ago

If money is an issue, I totally second the idea of 2 years community college plus 2 years of university.

In my case, I went to a state university (which was a UC, so not too shabby) and no one ever questioned "graduated 19xx from UC San Diego" on my resume.

No one cares where you went for the first two years (possible exception: Graduate school? No idea).

Though honestly people don't care at this point whether I went to college at all -- but I can't say for sure whether I would be where I am today without the degree.

joshmn5• 11 years ago

If no one cares where you went for the first two years, why not take the cheaper option at the expense of the "college experience"?

I never got said college experience obviously, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. But in terms of value, spending 1/5th of uni/state school per semester and getting <nearly> the same thing? I'll take it.

lsc• 11 years ago

If you have an opportunity to go to a really top-end school, sure, take it. That's really valuable. But remember, that's not an opportunity most people have.

Don't pretend that a degree from the school you see advertised on daytime TV is the same sort of product.

This, I think, is the "big lie" about college. The idea that a poor person with a degree from a shitty college is going to have even just the opportunities that I had[1]... is a lie. There's really no other way to put it. Sure, if you can get into a really good college and make sure you work your way into a peer group of successful people? It can be a great leg up. Hell, if I thought I could get into Stanford, I'd take four years off right now[2]. But going to the sort of college your average poor person is going to go to, and being around other people in that same situation isn't going to get you the opportunities I got for just being born.

[1]to be clear, My parents were pretty solidly middle class, not rich. So am I. I'm a competent but not great sysadmin/programmer; I didn't go to college, but I had all of the advantages that your average kid who goes to a mid-level college would have.

[2]But the sort of mid-level school that would accept a mid-level middle-class mid-achieving guy like me? Maybe a nice UC? Yeah, four years at your average mid-level school isn't going to increase my salary any more than four years of changing my job to focus on the more in-demand bits of my industry. Probably a lot less, in fact. I mean, it sounds like a lot of fun, but I don't know if it's half a million bucks in fun.

joshmn5• 11 years ago

Incredibly well said.

My parents — probably like yours — are very traditional. And in so, they are convinced that having that piece of paper means you're +$30k a year from the start <at least AND no matter what other circumstances> ( except outliers).

I STILL hear this all the time... "when I was your age..."

I reply, "yeah well when Barack Obama was your age, he was the first black President of the United States of America."

When my parents were my age, they could go to school full-time at the University of Minnesota, have a minimum wage job, and at 16 hours a week they would be able to afford their education and living expenses.

Those were the days where it made sense to have an education because it was such a great value at a very affordable price.

BUT. Now, because it's so much easier to get <nearly free money> (a la student loans), Universities saw this as money in their pocket: Since students are getting money easier, that means it's easier for them to get an education; now that there's more money available, let's make more money for ourselves!

It's a terrible fucking system.

rifung2• 11 years ago

I'm in a similar position. Also 24, and didn't finish college. I haven't had trouble getting jobs, but I still have to answer the "So why didn't you finish school" question no matter where I apply. I ended up just leaving my education off my resume but I still seem to get asked often.

joshmn5• 11 years ago

Well, honesty hour: why didn't you?

My reason (maybe for inspiration?)... If someone expects me to read a book and apply concepts from it, I'm going to have a terrible time. Not because I can't read, but because I won't. I don't learn by reading a book. I learn by doing.

Georgetown was first — more traditional school. That didn't last long. Thought that somewhere more "in my niche" would do things differently.

Nope.

animefan• 11 years ago

My undergraduate degree was math. Looking back, I find it really hard to imagine how I could have learnt all that without going to college. I just don't think it's possible to recreate that combination of extrinsic motivation and interactive learning. maybe moocs can do this but I suspect they fall short on both accounts.

Now I'm able to learn more independently (e.g. type theory and HoTT) but it's still very difficult and I don't think I could do it without my undergraduate and higher degrees.

I see a lot of posts on hn asking the lines of "how can I learn X on my own". Without at least some formal education in college math or cs, I suspect the answer may be "it's not possible "

vehementi• 11 years ago

App borken?

sdybskiy9• 11 years ago

Nope, might have been pushing updates. Check now!

colemorrison• 11 years ago

Aside from the usual flame of whether or not to go to college, this is HIGHLY impressive in design and function. It's also an amazing idea.

Good job OP!

superuser2• 11 years ago

If ever there was a headline designed for HN, this is it.

trymas• 11 years ago

TL;DR: university gave to me (and to my friends who have degrees) wider interest field, with skills to absorb information about new topics. In my own experience usually drop-outs and people who've did not attend college, have shallower and narrower interest fields.

IMHO, college/university degree is worth it (coming from Europe where education is way cheaper than in US), in regards you will also broaden your skill-set while attending school. Though, if you seek academical career 'real life' skill-set is somewhat less important.

Maybe it's just me and my social circles, but usually I can find out if someone has attended college or not (or just skimmed through classes), just by talking with them.

For reference, I had few colleagues who did their job well, though where completely clueless out of their job requirements range. They have not attended college, or dropped out very early. They had narrower and way shallower interest fields than people I know with degrees.

I want to stress that it's experience from my own social circles and I am not talking about exceptional cases (there are geniuses drop outs and geniuses with PhDs)

joshmn5• 11 years ago

For reference, I had few colleagues who did their job well, though where completely clueless out of their job requirements range. They have not attended college, or dropped out very early. They had narrower and way shallower interest fields than people I know with degrees.

Were they engineers? :)

TYPE_FASTER• 11 years ago

One of the careers listed is Boat Captain. I used to have my captain's license. You can totally do it, and travel the world driving wealthy people around, without a degree.

Another way to get into that profession is to go to a university with a top ranked racing team, and be a professional skipper after you graduate.

gregjwild• 11 years ago

IMO, just do whatever is right for you. Nobody should be held back from pursuing academic interests. Just like nobody should be held back from learning on the job.

The only thing that we should warn people away from is doing nothing. You've got one life, just live it!

alex_g• 11 years ago

Why limit it to careers for people not going to college? What is the benefit of that over, say, having all type of careers whether a degree is necessary or not? It seems like a really well organized product you have, but you are limiting its potential.

sebkomianos• 11 years ago

I like the filtering approach - quite unique criteria, compared to what "similar" job-catalogue websites are offering.

Well done, overall! :)

Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

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