Facebook Bluetooth Beacons

https://www.facebook.com/business/a/facebook-bluetooth-beacons

by jondot • 11 years ago

118 84 11 years ago

kbrwn• 11 years ago

This could be huge for small bands and artists. Yesterday at a show in Berlin the drummer kept talking about the bands Facebook page and handing out paper with the link. If a band could just have a becon that sent out push notifications to the fb app it could increase engagement significantly.

andreyf2• 11 years ago

There's no way to implement that on iOS, afaik. While the app is running, it can scan for nearby beacons and send that info to Facebook to pull down notifications. Push notifications would have to originate on Facebook's end, though.

TeMPOraL4• 11 years ago

Beacons can't send push notifications. Beacons are equivalent of light houses in 2.4GHz spectrum. They just keep broadcasting their presence and send their UUID. Everything else is done via the apps installed on your device.

(That's, coincidentally, is also why a lot of dream scenarios for beacons can't take off - they literally require you to have an Internet connection and a vendor-specific app on your phone to do anything interesting, which is not something you can expect of people outdoors. Facebook has a really good chance of making some of the beacon ideas work, because a/ almost everyone has their app, and b/ it's an app that people actually want to use outdoors, and they power up their mobile connection for that.)

wodenokoto3• 11 years ago

I'm impressed with their focus on privacy, but for me as a business owner I am probably not as interested in my customers privacy as my customers are in their own, so the privacy issue should probably be communicated more to fb users than to businesses.

Secondly, this page is very vague about what benefit I as a business owner will gain from service. Seriously, what will I gain?

I remember Facebook announced a free WiFi service for businesses, where I as a business owner could give my customers free WiFi if they checked-in at my location on Facebook. Now there's a benefit for the business!

pluma• 11 years ago

If as a business owner you're not interested in your customers' privacy, remind me not to do business with you.

biot• 11 years ago

You misinterpreted what he wrote. It's entirely possible to care about customer privacy a great deal yet the customer will generally still care more. It's an exceedingly rare business that would actually care more about your privacy than you would yourself.

And it's entirely possible a business could care too much for your privacy by taking cash only ("Sorry, credit and debit cards will track you. Checks leave a paper trail."), have a faraday cage around the entire building to block any RF signals ("You don't want big brother tracking you!"), etc. while you just want to buy that item with your credit card and be able to get messages while shopping.

wodenokoto3• 11 years ago

The main selling point of this is that it is private. Not that it gives my customers or me some sort of benefit.

If your product has a benefit, I am interested. If it cannot supply this benefit with reasonable privacy, I will have to decline.

m_eiman• 11 years ago

"Designed for privacy"

Let me guess, instead of broadcasting a textual description of the location and a Facebook URL that's visited if you click the interaction button, the beacon contains a URL that's automatically downloaded from Facebook every time you enter the location (presumably to download "up to date and accurate information").

Couldn't find any details on the page though, anyone know?

andreyf2• 11 years ago

The page has enough details to deduce it, I think. My understanding is that the Facebook app will download all of the local ads in the area your phone reports you as being in tied to the beacon ids. Your phone will then display the ads of the beacons it sees nearby.

It's actually a bit laudable that they didn't seem to go the route of "report to Facebook all the nearby beacons", although perhaps that's simply not necessary since wifi networks are everywhere and mobile OS'es already do the "heavy lifting" w.r.t. using those for device localization.

1. "The beacons don't [...] change the kind of location information Facebook receives."

wodenokoto3• 11 years ago

I thought the beacons would transfer content to the device.

IshKebab• 11 years ago

This will work in a very similar way to iBeacons. Basically BLE beacons can transmit 31 (or 32? I can't remember exactly) bytes of data in their advertisements.

Apple uses that to send GUIDs which they look up in their online database. Google uses it in their URIBeacon proof-of-concept to send URIs (but only really really short ones) that then don't depend on an online database of IDs (or rather, it uses the DNS database).

Facebook's will use Apple's approach. The beacon transmit's your facebook business ID. The facebook app then looks that up.

It is very unlikely that the business will receive any direct information about physical visitors - though facebook probably give them aggregate statistics ("150 people looked at facebook while in your shop this month"). I think facebook's main motivation (other than making Facebook more useful) will be to get this information for themselves so they can improve their advertising targeting (i.e. if you've been to clothes shops, show you clothes adverts).

It's probably not that great from a privacy point of view, but I doubt they're doing anything really sinister.

corin_• 11 years ago

From a privacy point of view it's pretty much taking active "checking in" and making it automated. If you don't mind that then enable the feature in your Facebook app. If you do mind that, then don't (though I guess there's a good chance you're someone who doesn't have a Facebook app installed? "you" the hypothetical reader, not specifically IshKebab)

sassal• 11 years ago

This looks incredible. They've taken the fact that people will scroll through their Facebook feeds when sitting at a cafe or shopping at a retail store and monetized it! Also, if they were to integrate push notifications for every time you walked into a store to inform people of your specials that could work great.

Macuyiko2• 11 years ago

I don't really get why you need to have a beacon for this though? The Facebook app is already installed and knows your location anyway. Provide businesses with a page to enter the details to be pushed to the phone and then just let the app pop up a notification once the user enters the associated geofence.

If the location is not accurate enough, you can tie it to a Wifi point of the business (the Wifi doesn't even need to be open). And it doesn't need to use Bluetooth at all (which I always leave off on all my phones until I really need it as it consumes a lot of battery).

Given the fact that the Facebook app is already installed anyway on literally any phone, they could pull this off right away. This is what Foursquare should have done years ago to survive.

imrehg• 11 years ago

I think you might underestimate how big is the error in the normal (wifi) location sensing (e.g. see here[1]). Bluetooth beacons add a much more localized spot, so much less likely to pop up the wrong place on your device, which is very important for this to be any real use.

[1] https://gigaom.com/2012/08/17/how-much-better-is-gps-over-wi...

codesushi424• 11 years ago

Not all businesses have Wifi. Does an out of the box equivalent of iBeacon for Wifi exist? I'd be interested if you know of one.

TeMPOraL4• 11 years ago

Also, if they were to integrate push notifications for every time you walked into a store to inform people of your specials that could work great.

That, I guess, would kill it, were it enabled by default or not easily turned off. Some people may like being shoved ads in their faces, but others hate it. I personally would happily switch to another store if they were to start push-spamming me.

mfenniak• 11 years ago

How is it monetized? The beacon is free to the business, the customer doesn't pay Facebook to view the business's page.

Sarkie• 11 years ago

Ha, I made something very similar 9 years ago as a POC, but the tech and battery life didn't really work back then, J2ME was a bitch.

Give a shop a "beacon". Track customers in a mall. Find general walking patterns. Give time limited offers. Give awards if you stay in a shop for x minutes. Main one I liked Find a friend feature.

Also looked at installing them in Theme Parks and at Concerts mainly for the Find a friend.

Probably a privacy nightmare, bluetooth battery nightmare.

reustle• 11 years ago

I know someone working on this right now and a bunch of cities are already on board to get the data.

PanMan• 11 years ago

This seems to be a "standard" iBeacon with Facebook branding? Or is there anything different here?

TeMPOraL4• 11 years ago

There's nothing interesting in any iBeacon sold, they're just (mostly) Nordic 2.4GHz chips in cool package. What matters is the software and related services; in this case Facebook has a chance to make iBeacons actually useful for retailers because they want to make Facebook app itself be able to use beacons to deliver you localized information. With a typical beacons you'd have to install a special app for every store or service that wants to use them.

pierre• 11 years ago

Facebook just fix the biggest issue with (i)beacons today : You need to have an app that read them install on your device to get notify. This was a show stopper for most small business application as you will have needed the small business app installed on your phone. Now you will just need you costumer to have Facebook installed and they certainly do. This could revive the (i)Beacon industry.

rogeryu4• 11 years ago

One more reason not to install the app and use the smartphone browser for Facebook, and not Chrome if on Android, but Firefox of course. But then again, I rarely have Bluetooth on, only at home for streaming music.

golergka3• 11 years ago

I don't quite understand; what's the reason, exactly?

realusername• 11 years ago

Yes I don't recommend installing the Facebook app, the application is doing shady things with contacts, messages and tries to gather as much data as it can. For the Bluetooth, there is not a lot of usages today anyway and it's consuming battery (which is the main problem on smartphones) so switching it off is the best option in my opinion.

NickNameNick2• 11 years ago

I certainly dont have the facebook app on my phone. Mostly because it hoovers up the phones contact list, and some of that information isn't mine to share with them, and I wouldn't share it even if it was.

nly• 11 years ago

That's nice, but your friends probably already did it and Facebook have graphed you anyway. Whatsapp also uploads all your contacts btw.

mnem• 11 years ago

Is that on Android? The iOS version doesn't appear to request access to the contacts database.

SchizoDuckie• 11 years ago

Yes facebook, please track me more. Bluetooth -> Off.

micheljansen2• 11 years ago

There is little mention of the technology used, but if Facebook is really interested in the kind of openness they claim when talking about Internet.org etc., they should adopt an open standard.

The Physical Web project (http://google.github.io/physical-web/) aims to set up such a standard based on existing technologies (Bluetooth, mDNS etc.), but it's being held back by lack of browser support. If Facebook were to adopt this, it would be a huge boost.

atonse• 11 years ago

They're very likely using the same tech as iBeacons (which is part of Bluetooth LE)

micheljansen2• 11 years ago

But that's the thing: the iBeacon protocol does very little to specify the data payload, whereas Physical Web Beacons always broadcast URLs, for example.

kissickas• 11 years ago

Looks like a cool idea and I'm excited for Facebook, but I'm also quite happy I never have Bluetooth enabled except when I'm at home. Do other HNers tend to have it on? Bluetooth headsets seem to be on the decline but with cars getting smarter I'm not really sure.

rogeryu4• 11 years ago

I use BT only at home for streaming music to the stereo, and I guess I'm not the only one.

icebraining4• 11 years ago

I always have it on. I'm already being tracked using Wi-fi and GPS; BT beacons are unlikely to pose much more of a threat.

If you don't want to be tracked, you're better off not installing Facebook or any other closed-source app with BT or location permissions.

bcraven• 11 years ago

I use it to stay connected to my Pebble

arethuza• 11 years ago

I have it on all the time to connect to my car - I do sometimes turn it off when I'm trying to preserve the battery.

e28eta• 11 years ago

Anyone with an Apple Watch will have BT on, and presumably those people have some disposable cash to spend at your business.

nstart• 11 years ago

Has anyone else been keeping an eye on estimote? Any idea how this will measure up against their offering? In many ways this looks similar too. Just wondering if this is going to make business hard for estimote. Although, estimote just seems to be a lot more developer friendly, and open to more applications.

calvin_c• 11 years ago

I really like Estimote, but it seems like they're selling premium hardware in a space that's racing to the bottom. Most beacons really don't need the temperature sensors or accelerometers. I finally got my nearables order last month, over six months after the first promised delivery date, and as great as those are ten dollars each is still a bit much IMO. Their solid SDK and developer relationships aren't going to matter too much if stuff like Facebook's beacons take off, making it so that businesses don't even need people to download an extra app.

grandalf• 11 years ago

Just got one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Near-field-Positioning-Wirel...

and it works great.

golergka3• 11 years ago

Practical question: I participate in promoting events that take places in different venues every time. Will these beacons work for business like this?

rogeryu4• 11 years ago

I bet you can buy ads to promote your events. FB will know the location of the beacons, and can serve your ads to people walking there.

maxwellito• 11 years ago

"Designed for privacy" part made me laugh. A lot.

Fogest5• 11 years ago

Why? It is privacy minded in a way. The business does not get to know any data about who was near the button or who was near the button. I mean if this wasn't designed with privacy in mind you would probably expect the business owner to get a list of all the Facebook users who were in the business.

mbq2• 11 years ago

FB knows the list of visitors from their query logs and in principle may later sell it to the business either directly or as a more targeted ad.

Still this beacon network may be also alternatively mapped (or ripped from FB servers) by the community, released as an offline db and then used as a fully private navigation aid or something like this.

mikeash3• 11 years ago

There's a pretty big difference between "private for the businesses, but Facebook continues to know All, as is usual for them" which is what you basically describe, and "actually private, including from Facebook" which is probably what a reasonable person would understand from "designed for privacy."

ape4• 11 years ago

Quick a dirty beacon: set the SSID of your wifi network to a URL.

bshimmin• 11 years ago

It seems to me like this is the realisation of the personalised advertising billboards they had in "Minority Report", except instead of billboards it's your phone (for now...).

jonlucc• 11 years ago

Well I'd doubt it will ever be billboards. They're so clunky and impersonal. In my opinion, they'll get pushed to your most distracting or annoying device (watch, glasses, surgically implanted HUD, etc).

DavideNL• 11 years ago

"Designed for privacy" -> misleading people who don't understand they are being traced and manipulated. Disgusting...

kenrick95• 11 years ago

I've read some papers that claims that Bluetooth and Wi-Fi signal does interfere each other. And in my group project, we tried out transferring files from phone to phone via Bluetooth while there is another file transfer going on from laptop to laptop via Wi-Fi; and the result is that the time taken for the Bluetooth transfer to complete is longer than that when there is no Wi-Fi file transfer going on. Well, it may depend on the version of Bluetooth and Wi-Fi frequency used though. (but in my scenario, we're using 2.4GHz Wi-Fi and Bluetooth 4.0)

aselzer• 11 years ago

Of course they interfere, Bluetooth and Bluetooth LE use the 2.4-2.48 ISM band, and so does WiFi. WiFi has up to 14 overlapping 20MHz channels, and Bluetooth 4.0 has 40 2MHz channels. Though I guess Bluetooth could be clever enough to avoid the channels with interference.

IneffablePigeon• 11 years ago

BLE has 3 advertising channels, spaced to try to avoid the WiFi channels. Once a connection is made (probably not relevant for beacons anyway), it uses frequency hopping over the other 37 channels to avoid interference as much as possible.

gusmd• 11 years ago

Yes, they can sometimes use overlapping bands. However Bluetooth tries to minimize that by using FHSS [0].

I've witnessed it first-hand with my last ultrabok (lenovo yoga 13, 2013), which uses a cheap radio (WiFi + Bluetooth) that shares several components, including a narrow USB bus. End-result: I couldn't use a BL mouse because my WiFi would go dial-up slow [1].

Macbooks had that problem too, FWIW [2]. The ONLY solution? Using a 5 GHz Wifi.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency-hopping_spread_spect... [1] https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Lenovo-Edge-Yoga-Lavie-Z-Flex/Y... [2] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6601731

CHY872• 11 years ago

Bluetooth beacons work by advertising only. The BLE advertising bands are at the start of the WiFi band, after the end, and in the middle (between two common WiFi channels). This minimises the likelihood of interference.

They can interfere, but there's so little data transferred that it's not a practical concern.

sneak• 11 years ago

I doubt this does anything unless you have location services enabled for Facebook.

Most people do, of course.

taytus• 11 years ago

I'm so sick of FB. FB pages are really a joke at this point.

ryanmarsh• 11 years ago

The first thing that came to mind was "wow Life Invader isn't so far off as a parody". Life Invader was a parody on Facebook in Grand Theft Auto V.

formatjam• 11 years ago

I actually saw this in full effects near alexandra steakhouse Cupertino. It is a really impressive experience. and also surprisingly, it works for even when I was quite far away, at least like 20 meters. I wonder how the technology works. Dose it has something to do with the one way transmission?

shostack• 11 years ago

Am I missing something, or can you just leave Bluetooth off for this to be a non-issue from a privacy standpoint?

I usually never have it on anyway due to battery drain.

drezko• 11 years ago

The problem with beacons to date is the lack of a happy medium between controlled network and openness for 3rd party developers.

Most developers are not Facebook and won't be able to ship thousands and thousands of beacons to businesses for their apps.

Also, this is a super haphazard deployment by FB. Their installation instructions are "take it out of the box, set it up somewhere in a central area and you're good to go." Well not really - these beacons are going to end up in weird places, giving people "Place Tips" when they're walking down an alley, or live upstairs from a restaurant with a FB beacon.

Facebook Bluetooth Beacons

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