So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

https://aralbalkan.com/notes/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish/

by lelf • 11 years ago

191 139 11 years ago

Interesting to read--best of luck to Aral. Nationalism seems to be spreading all over Europe, so I can understand why "where to go next" is a tough decision.

Mithaldu3• 11 years ago

As a german with not a iota of patriotism, aside from a little pride in the social institutions still maintained here, i'm honestly curious:

Where do you see nationalism increasing in germany?

themodelplumber2• 11 years ago

Well, I'm just an outsider, but I seem to be seeing things like this more frequently with regards to the larger European countries:

http://news.yahoo.com/germany-grapples-rise-anti-foreigner-m...

Edit--video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZFmnz4ROEo

anarazel• 11 years ago

Maybe I'm just oversensitive or not modern enough. But the way cities look these days e.g. around football (soccer) games scares the shit out of me. A black-red-gold sea of flags. In Germany. Brr.

Less trivial, but Germany is one of the major forces controlling EU's border policies - and that's a wider form of nationalism and protectionism that pretty directly costs lives.

Political forces like AFD and pegida (legida, ...) aren't exactly a sign of receding nationalism either.

PythonicAlpha7• 11 years ago

As a German with also no patriotism: I think, Germany is starting from a very low point here and particularly my generation (post war, but not so much post) is rather uncommitted to the own nation. But, I see some new nationalism breeding particularly in younger generations and in the less intellectual people. Patriotism was and is always a means of finding some meaning in life and something to be proud about.

When you look, how people are treated from other nations, than I see very much undercover nationalism. Of course, we are still at a low level, because of our history and because the media does not enforce nationalism like in other countries ... but I think, that we can not take our own attitude and think that everybody has it.

I see nationalism rising again in many countries in Europe and in the world today. In the same time, egoism is rising (what partially counteracts to nationalism, partially reinforces patriotism).

I think, we see the age of egoism rising today. What it will end up, who knows?

coldtea5• 11 years ago

Where do you see nationalism increasing in germany?

In Germany's behavior within the E.U. and open desire to rule Europe?

In their characterizing of Southern countries (even in popular media read by millions, etc) with terms used in the past to describe Jews? (from "lazy" and "pests" to "traitors" and "PIIGS").

In the frequent verbal attacks immigrants from Greece (for example) face in Germany, in shops and public spaces?

josh64• 11 years ago

What are some options including countries outside of Europe? New Zealand used to be an option but I wouldn't consider it an option any more.

xupybd2• 11 years ago

Why not New Zealand?

stevep98• 11 years ago

As a french citizen, he has freedom to live and work wherever he wants in the EU without having to deal with getting a visa. I imagine that plays into it somewhat.

no1youknowz• 11 years ago

Honestly, good luck to you and bai!

I am happy for all those that voted Tory. The country would have been a complete shambles had Labour got in. Do you people have short memories of the last Labour Goverment?

There was no money left.

Immigration was out of control.

There were musings of ditching the pound and having the euro as the currency.

Giving more powers to the EU.

Complete madness. Labour would not have been more happier if the UK was sold off like Greece.

Now under a Tory parliament, the UK has a chance of being great again. Being fiscally responsible and fostering a climate for more jobs for people and better wages. Last I heard the UK was outpacing Germany!

It's funny, where will you go. Yeah, no-where IS perfect.

cobweb3• 11 years ago

Very funny.

madez9• 11 years ago

I genuinely laughed while reading it.

harel4• 11 years ago

You are being downvoted (and probably me to follow) because you said something 'unpopular' in a context of a quite lefty post. To be honest I think the British public voted for the better candidate out of the existing options. They were not presented with stellar choices, so they had to make do. Online privacy, I believe was not why most people voted or did not vote Tory.

Yes, apps like Aral's (which good on him, I support it), have a chance of being affected. Maybe. Its just as likely that it won't be. Who knows? The whole world is snooping and listening so it might as well be happening wherever he goes.

However, had Labour won you'd see the exact same post created by someone else, leaving the country because Labour had won, stating his/hers reasons and telling the public to be ashamed of themselves. This is how democracy works. half the people will be unhappy.

dijit• 11 years ago

Labour is increasingly right wing, but you're wrong about Tory's being a good option.

Tories now have majority rule in the house of commons for 5 years, which means they can push whatever they want as long as they're aligned without being reigned in. Last time this happened the gap between rich and poor deepened massively, benefits were slashed, our rail system was privatised and Libraries closed- oh, and Miners went on strike due to terrible conditions.

38% is not a Majority vote, in my mind, and leveraging young voters because they "don't know better" and have very little consideration to other issues that do not affect young fit workers is a very American thing to do.

honestly, growing up poor has taught me to respect socialist ideals such as public free healthcare and benefits for the unable. - But there was a time in my teen years where even I would have voted conservative because "these issues" wouldn't have affected me as a young worker- but they will one day and people should be quick to recognise that.

Tories scare the life out of me, they have a history of being self-serving. :\ and you're right about the choices not being stellar.

I'd suggest creating another party- but we have so many!

PythonicAlpha7• 11 years ago

I don't know, how bad Labour is, but what I know is, that this kind of spying on everybody reminds me very much to that what the former DDR did, what was greatly criticized in Western Germany, after the fall of the wall. With one distinction: What they did, was a joke compared to what is going on today in many western countries.

The other thing is, that in my opinion, what ruined the country most in the long term was the reign of Miss Thatcher. The total sale of the state and the rise of the banks stripped the country from any other options (all other industry is in ruins today or sold to foreign (e.g. German) corporations) -- GB must give the banks a free hand, or crash. And when they do, we all in Europe loose (also GB).

I also read a statement from a Economist, who largely criticized Camerons idea of further reducing the states spending (as much I understood, by privatization). This makes the country even more vulnerable to crisis and I also see some very good examples in GB, how privatization can make public services worse.

alextgordon• 11 years ago

The comment is satire, in case you didn't get it. Not even David Cameron himself is that on-message.

Obviously the UK can't "run out of money", the Tories missed their own immigration target by a factor of 10, and joining the Euro was always a Conservative ambition (remember Black Wednesday?).

PythonicAlpha7• 11 years ago

Last I heard the UK was outpacing Germany!

Short-term comparisons are always wrong.

Sorry, I am German, but still I must say that, because it is right. Don't believe in what your politicians tell you, I don't believe what our politicians are telling me! (many statistics are basically on the verge to lies, I know that, because our government is falsifying so many).

necrodawg3• 11 years ago

Austerity is a tool to prevent a sovereign default. It has never in history worked to reduce deficit and increase growth except for a few of the post-soviet countries who had huge governments.

I agree that the choices weren't that great but I'd rather see labour in charge.

mavdi2• 11 years ago

Outpaced most EU countries financially. My income has quadrupled since the tories got in office, but I still very much prefer the old days where the next guy actually gave a shit about you.

dba7dba2• 11 years ago

no-where IS perfect

Seriously. UK/US/EU/Aus/NZ/plus few others are just about perfect places. There's a reason they enjoy prosperity, stability, and fairness in general.

tjbiddle• 11 years ago

If it was perfect, than everyone would be happy.

stonogo• 11 years ago

I have long been convinced that people throwing meaningless public temper tantrums like this was an American habit. Nice to see people across the pond slam the door too.

jliptzin• 11 years ago

Why is this meaningless?

doseofreality• 11 years ago

Did you read the bit where he moved to the UK from the USA?

themartorana• 11 years ago

SOPA.

Edit: down votes? What exactly is the problem with pointing out a huge victory for "meaningless public temper tantrums?"

MCRed2• 11 years ago

Well, I didn't vote you up or down, I'm replying instead-- but SOPA was passed... when they tried again and called it "net neutrality". Everyone was for it, but did you read the 800 pages?

kelukelugames• 11 years ago

But he has moved before and will move again. Most people don't get beyond posting on facebook. I love this. I think more people should vote with their feet.

coldtea5• 11 years ago

people throwing meaningless public temper tantrums like this was an American habit

It is, it's just that in the internet age those can be adopted fast.

dwaltrip• 11 years ago

He's putting his money where his mouth is. How is that meaningless?

web0072• 11 years ago

I'm curious - will leaving the country affect eligibility for the ind.ie domain?

dnlbyl• 11 years ago

.ie is Ireland's TLD.

web0072• 11 years ago

Yes, but does UK citizenship / resident-alien status / locality have anything to do with eligibility for .ie TLD registration?

The description of who can use *.ie is slightly vague on Wikipedia, but indicates there has to be a "tie" to Ireland. Moving the company out of the country seems like it might break whatever tie was there if it's based on any of the above criteria.

It's already too complicated to me as an Ugly American to differentiate Ireland, Northern Ireland, the UK, (Great) Britain and/or England, I'm hoping someone with more expertise can comment.

rashkov• 11 years ago

Aral Balkan gave a superlative talk a few days ago at re:publica 2015, called Beyond The Camera Panopticon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c

It's a broad overview the current state of the internet as seen through a cyberpunk, pro- freedom, human rights, and privacy perspective. Aral is a dynamic speaker and delivers it with a delightfully dark and sardonic voice. Really one of the best talks I've seen on the topic.

dragontamer8• 11 years ago

This was an absolutely disgusting talk.

I prefer this style:

http://dontbubble.us/ http://donttrack.us/

You know... the kind of talks that don't constantly disparage audience members for being white, or religious... or those who have slightly political views.

jchrome3• 11 years ago

"constantly disparage audience members for being white or religious.."

Hyperbole much? He may have been disparaging of religions (once in the talk, mind you) but never white people.

The talk's great.

madez9• 11 years ago

The talk was about much more than tracking and search bubbles.

This is like comparing a complaint of a little girl about wanting to have candy and the complaint of income-bringers of households about their jobs and thus their families being threatened.

He argues that the very business model of Google, Facebook and co are a fundamental threat to democracy.

sebastianconcpt• 11 years ago

Thanks for sharing! I don't agree with all what he says but that talk is superb and thought provoking

madez9• 11 years ago

This talk is awesome. Thanks for sharing.

eswat• 11 years ago

Good luck!

I wonder if similar actions would be considered in Canada if C-51 passes the Supreme Court.

xupybd2• 11 years ago

Have you considered NZ?

squidsoup• 11 years ago

New Zealand is part of the 'Five eyes' intelligence network, which also includes Australia, Britain, Canada and the US. I can't imagine things are any better here, despite our government's claim that it does not participate in mass surveillance.

rdc122• 11 years ago

And the evidence that is never "right", but never explained why.

markdown• 11 years ago

They are not any better. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/66970595/snowden-do...

They probably spy on their own citizens via the aussies.

cobweb3• 11 years ago

Nice if you can do it. I swore I'd leave if the Tories got in in 2010. But I didn't... I have roots in the UK with family and friends, and they are difficult bonds to break. A few hundred miles from some people already feels like it is too wide a gulf.

tangled2• 11 years ago

The author does have a choice as to whether to stay or leave. (They are actually in a very fortunate position if they can just leave the country.) It's also premature to presume that all of the Tory policies will actually be implemented. An alternative course of action would be to stay and campaign against the referenced policies.

sekasi• 11 years ago

I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, he has a choice and that's a good thing. Why do you bring that up? They are making a choice based off fundamental disagreements with policies that the now-ruling party stands for. Of course it's impossible to work out exactly what policy will be implemented, that's not really the point.

tangled2• 11 years ago

No, the author claims he has no choice: "By voting in a Tory government, you basically did not leave us any other choice." This feels like a dishonest representation of the situation.

coldtea5• 11 years ago

An alternative course of action would be to stay and campaign against the referenced policies.

God forbid people do that and actually try to influence and improve the society they live in. It's all about the individual and their comfort. Their city/country etc either has to be as they want, or they leave.

(Some of them even think that this behavior helps, because their privileged decision to leave they think would somehow register as a specific vocal complaint (e.g. because they put it on a blog)).

mschuster912• 11 years ago

Our list includes Germany (Berlin, Hamburg?)

Seriously? I'm a German and I'm simply surprised no one is out on the streets or that there is no nationwide strike after the revelation that our current government has:

- blatantly lied to us wrt NSA "no-spy deal"

- the BND tries to conceal just how deep they were up the NSA's butthole

- Heckler&Koch tried to get MAD (the military's (counter)-espionage agency) to silence the press over the G36 scandal.

As soon as I got some money together, I'm out. That's not what I consider an acceptable environment here, and I honestly don't see any political force trying to change the way things run (or those who try have no serious hope of ever gaining power).

girvo2• 11 years ago

Where are you going to go, though... all of the western countries seem to have this exact same problem. My home, Australia, is just as secretive if not worse, the UK is bust, and more and more info is coming out showing that no government is immune. It's really disheartening.

The worst part is, the Australian government really did foil a possible terrorist attack. Guess where the info on the perp came from? Mass surveillance? Their new metadata retention laws (okay, that's a cheap shot as it hasn't been implemented yet)?

Nope. It was a tip-off to the national security hotline.

oceanstone2• 11 years ago

Nope. It was a tip-off to the national security hotline.

In America, for whatever reason, that tip might have been ignored. :(

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/boston-bombing-anniversary/...

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bombers-phone-call-father/story?id=...

PythonicAlpha7• 11 years ago

Same here in Germany: Police also did foil an attack lately. The information just came from a shop assistant in a hardware store. And what: Again they want get into more surveillance.

andrewstuart• 11 years ago

> the Australian government really did foil a possible terrorist attack

If you buy that.

kordless• 11 years ago

Of course! A tip off is real information, spoken as a truth by someone who cares, and who is being present. That truth translates directly into a trusted communications channel when instantiated. We've used this 'neighborhood watch' thing for years in the U.S., and it simply works without anyone being in charge.

Regardless of how much knowledge it represents, mass surveillance by central agencies is just them pretending to know the truth. The reason why is because the information used to 'know' is based on simulations of bad actors doing bad things, usually in the past, applied to the present moment. This 'simulated truth' translates into multiple communications channels of unknown quality when instantiated (because there are multiple futures) and fails to represent the present state of bad actor's actions.

In short, it's a low trust channel which is always ripe for a misuse of power!

As John Steinbeck put it best, “Up ahead they's a thousan' lives we might live, but when it comes it'll on'y be one.”

crdb• 11 years ago

It's not a new phenomenon - successive managements go through a cycle where they think ELINT and COMINT can make HUMINT obsolete, and then some bad thing happens and they realize they were wrong (but never admit it).

The theory is that - much as the decentralised panopticon of Van Vogt's "Anarchistic Colossus" - we'll eventually be able to parse everything everybody ever says and preemptively stop bad things. The practice is that humans are pretty good at it and computers aren't yet (that we publicly know of).

Reading about Eagle Claw [1], I was surprised at how few human assets the US had in Iran, due to both post-Vietnam cuts and an increased belief in computer magic. It's been a while but I remember they had something like a couple of cooks in the embassy, and nobody outside... contrast this with General Kalugin's assertion in his biography that almost 2/3 of Soviet staff in the US was KGB!

More recently, Charlie Hebdo was followed by a few leaks from the DGSE complaining of budget cuts targeting human assets and "street" operations, and a reorg that definitely did not prioritize the man on the street (no link - I read it in French papers).

Pete Blaber, at the time commander of Delta Force, recently complained [2] that Operation Anaconda was plagued by generals who managed it from the comfort of their AC rooms in Washington, basing their decision on drone and satellite feeds, unwilling to trust the men on the ground (and even cutting the Delta Force team out of comms when they objected).

The sad thing is that HUMINT takes a long time to develop, and requires a lot of experience (which is partly why the Allied won the intelligence war over the freshly purged German apparatus). Firing those with that experience can lead to years of underperformance as the expertise is slowly rebuilt.

This is one of the reasons the CIA was happy to use former Nazis to hunt Soviet spies in Germany [3] - justified both by these men's extensive experience operating in the territory and the fact that the Stasi was doing the same. I think not enough has been said about how the recent (returning) obsession with electronic surveillance is potentially damaging that side of (genuine, needed) counter-terrorist capability.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw

[2] http://www.amazon.com/The-Mission-Men-Me-Commander/dp/042523... - what is most interesting was Delta Force's insistance on reading everything they could from previous defenders of the Shahi-Kot, thereby anticipating the exact way in which the enemy took down the helicopters later sent in by Washington, which was the way the locals used to shoot down Soviet helicopters.

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehlen_Organization

PythonicAlpha7• 11 years ago

Same here.

I am also outraged, what our government is doing and how they get away with it.

I think, political disinterest has just risen so much, that most people just ignore everything. 30-40 years ago, chancellors stumbled upon much less, but today they just keep on lying.

I even heard, that only 15% or so of the German population is interested in the lying and spying scandals. Everybody seems to be more interested in the price of bananas or if the government promises lower taxes.

We train our politicians, that they can be corrupt, that they can lie and do anything that is for their profit and get away with it. Consequently what we will get is an even more corrupted system in the future.

I fear that we will again reach the state of the 1930s years. And what will happen than, nobody can say. Maybe a new dictator or even the world wide dictatorship of the big corporations. In Italy we saw, how much might just one media mogul can unfold.

madez9• 11 years ago

I agree that Germany has problems, too. However, I don't think the points you listed are the most important problems.

Some in the MAD tried to start intelligence activity against the press, but the responsible official denied their motion.

The BND is not properly supervised, but the government already acknowledged that and said that they are going to solve it.

What I found to be the most outrageous thing is that chancellor Merkel said that her goal is to enforce german law on german ground, and that they are working towards that. This doesn't sound like she is really convinced to be able to do so. I expect the government to say that german law will be enforced and that they will fight any activity not adhering to them.

mschuster912• 11 years ago

Some in the MAD tried to start intelligence activity against the press, but the responsible official denied their motion.

The fact alone that high-up army officials and H&K managers even attempted such behaviour is telling enough about the respect to the constitution of those involved.

The fact that this behaviour has not warranted immediate consequences (at least resignation/discharge of the involved AND a criminal investigation by the Bundesanwalt) is telling lengths about the Bundesanwalt, too.

The BND is not properly supervised, but the government already acknowledged that and said that they are going to solve it.

Honestly, you're believing in that? A secret agency is by definition secret, and I don't see the amount of change needed for proper surveillance of the spies coming anytime soon.

What I found to be the most outrageous thing is that chancellor Merkel said that her goal is to enforce german law on german ground, and that they are working towards that. This doesn't sound like she is really convinced to be able to do so. I expect the government to say that german law will be enforced and that they will fight any activity not adhering to them.

I don't see that much of a problem in this regard, though. The US embassies and military bases in Germany have historically been dealt with as foreign territory, even though they were not de jure. In a certain way, what we allow the US to do in "their" bases and what we get in exchange from the US, is a reasonable amount of discretionary power of the politicians. However, this needs trust and at least "private" (i.e. knowledge on level of ministers/heads of state) transparency on both sides that no cheating takes place.

kirubakaran• 11 years ago

How about Costa Rica? Fast Internet. Good weather. Beautiful country. Friendly people. And they don't even have a military.

pepijndevos• 11 years ago

Tech community?

I don't know anything about politics in Costa Rica but they seem very US-oriented. You can even pay stuff in US dollars.

fredtp• 11 years ago

Your are good at avoiding the US immigration system why do you help out lelf

Animats• 11 years ago

Good for him!

Fortunately, he can work anywhere in the EU. If the UK leaves the EU, it will be too late for UK subjects. (Under this government, "subjects" is more than a historical reference).

makeitsuckless• 11 years ago

His pro-EU argument and the notion of staying in the EU and short listing places like surveillance state Sweden undermines the credibility of most of his arguments.

The corrupt, undemocratic super state the EU, inventors of the data retention law and other shit, strives for is a far worse prospect than a UK that has survived Thatcher and will survive Cameron because at least it's still a democracy.

The possibility of blowing up the EU is the only good thing that might come out of this UK government.

If he wants freedom, democracy and no surveillance state, he should get out of the EU.

excalq• 11 years ago

Why not Ireland? You do have a .ie domain, afterall!

pcmonk• 11 years ago

Welfare cuts, privatization, etc. "widen the already unsustainable systemic inequality that poses an existential threat for our entire species."? That's insanely hyperbolic, and it makes it difficult for me to take the rest of the article seriously. If our species disappears any time soon, it's not going to be because of welfare cuts.

objclxt• 11 years ago

That's not what Aral is saying, though. He's saying "unsustainable systemic inequality" poses an existential threat, and that welfare cuts contribute to that. He is clearly not talking about welfare cuts alone.

youngtaff3• 11 years ago

Aral uses hyperbole quite a lot, some may agree with his view some may not

arthur_debert2• 11 years ago

Sorry. Here's the dissonance: we're building tools (including secure messaging) that are government snooping safe. We care deeply about the privacy and security of our users. And the web page that tells us that has mixed content warnings on ssl.

Maybe nitpicking, but security and OPSEC in particular requires insane focus and attention to every little detail. If you can trip up on the small things, I could hardly trust you to get the hard things right.

oceanstone2• 11 years ago

To be fair, the script is "http://localhost:35729/livereload.js". That shouldn't leak anything to an adversary, if the request doesn't leave the client's computer.

Still should be fixed though, so the HTTPS warning can serve its function and call out real threats.

arthur_debert2• 11 years ago

You're 100% right. It's just that security is so hard to get right. Only (maybe not even) the paranoid survive on that front. All it takes is one tiny detail to screw everything up. Leaving development artifacts on your live server is not very tranquilizing on that front.

pellmellism• 11 years ago

Dolphins are the smart ones....42

arde• 11 years ago

Why didn't he mention the Netherlands?

simondelacourt• 11 years ago

I don't know, but I can't say the Netherlands is that much more progressive when it comes to privacy.

The data retention law has been put on hold, but the ruling VVD is looking for ways to get it back.

Bits for Freedom is an organisation worth checking out; https://www.bof.nl/category/english/

tacone• 11 years ago

It’s quite possible that all this will backfire spectacularly as England shifts ever further right in its xenophobia and that the British will vote to leave the EU.

Referendum on EU exit == xenophoby? Seriously?

necrodawg3• 11 years ago

Brits aren't xenophobic at all. Just classist. If you're poor AND and immigrant, that really sucks. If you're a well off immigrant that's fine.

dash23• 11 years ago

I do think this is a fairly silly example of throwing your toys out of the pram. Yes, we should be concerned about threats to civil liberties and human rights - which exist under governments of every shade (hi, Obama). A citizen's response to this, as opposed to a globe-trotting metic's, is to fight diligently and patiently to minimize harm and make small improvements. The threat to ind.ie's business model seems remote; presumably whether they might be forced to backdoor their products would depend on whether they sell them in the UK, not where the code was written.

As for "feeling ashamed of myself" and "being held responsible" by these chaps, who "don't want to hear my excuses" for voting Tory: ha ha ha, sorry stranger but why should I give two hoots?

sparkzilla• 11 years ago

The only way you always get the government want is when you are a dictator in North Korea. Instead of throwing a tantrum that has no real result, spread the word about your beliefs in a non-condescending way. You might even get some people to change their minds.

seesomesense• 11 years ago

You might have to leave the planet.

Every country with the ability has it's citizens under surveillance.

Some of my clients are in counter-terrorism roles in my country ( Western, democratic ) and they confirm that they have extensive extra-judicial surveillance abilities.

mavdi2• 11 years ago

I'm pretty sure you broke ~20 laws just there.

cobweb3• 11 years ago

I am not quite sure I understand the ramifications for the indie phone with something like the snoopers charter.

I would hope there was no such thing as an indie cloud (all your address book, call history, online searches etc. tucked away in some silo that is ripe for picking), but rather a decentralised system that was impervious to snooping.

mindcrash• 11 years ago

Speaking as a friend of Aral (living abroad) here; Indie Cloud _is_ planned to have a completely decentralized storage infrastructure, which makes it impervious to snooping. However, if Aral remains in the UK there's a pretty big, let's say 100%, chance that the Cameron government will force him or anyone else working on Indie in the UK to either place backdoors in the code or the completely optional hosting services (which can be used while you, as the customer, are still in possession and control of your own data). That's why he's leaving -- if he stays he simply cannot build a organization and service portfolio based on the principles Indie has.

fubvr• 11 years ago

Why not Greece?

vilmosi• 11 years ago

When your vision is:

> While Apple is a closed, proprietary company, they are not a spyware company like Google.
> Together, we can build a future where we have independent alternatives to the spyware of companies like Google and Facebook.

I can just say... good luck and good bye!

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

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