Best, Brightest – and Saddest?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/12/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-best-brightest-and-saddest.html?ref=international

by jacinda • 11 years ago

124 100 11 years ago

1971genocide• 11 years ago

This article resonates with me.

My dad is an successful electrical engineer who people look up-to. I on the other hand hated physics and was never good enough for it. I took an alternate path to do Computer Science which I feel terrible about since I am not sure if I love it because I hated Physics or I choose it because I found it easier.

The cost of failure is really high, not because I will end up in the streets which I personally do not have a problem with but I would have to live with the fact that I would have let down what is expected of me. I would have no excuse since biologically I should be able to do it. There are no disadvantages or excuses I can point out to.

I have noticed this among many of my white male friends. They seem to have a higher burden when it comes to proving themselves in society. White male problems do not compare to everyone else's problem but its still something that needs to be addressed since mental stress is no joke.

malvosenior2• 11 years ago

I wouldn't say that white male problems don't compare because there are a bunch of very poor and struggling white males.

That being said, I think even the wealthiest most privileged people are often under a great deal of stress. They may have more pressure to marry someone from another wealthy family, there's the stress of expectations you mention...

I'm a hispanic male and often it can be easy to look at people from more economically privileged backgrounds and think to myself "they have it so easy!", but it's not really true. Maybe they have some things easier but they almost certainly have others harder.

I've worked myself up a few rungs on the socioeconomic ladder and each time I go up, I feel as if I gain some things and lose others. I never felt more free than when I was a poor person, but I would never go back :)

rndn• 11 years ago

I read somewhere that stress before and during exams is commonly as extreme as war and near death experiences. In some cases there isn't that much of a difference biochemically, so I think there is certainly some 'social relativity' even if the first world is very privileged.

jtzhou• 11 years ago

Yes, living up to someone else's expectations is a difficult challenge. It becomes more acute when you are a single child, or come from an immigrant family who sacrificed a lot for you to be there, because you have to live up to both of your parents expectations and carry on the family lineage. Simply going to Davis and becoming a nurse or teacher in Fremont, while your friends are celebrating at frat parties at Princeton or Yale, feels like you are letting people down.

ScottBurson• 11 years ago

Even some who seem to have made it have the same problem. I am reminded of the suicide of Stanford grad student May Zhou [0]. I read some of the statements her father made after her death and was struck by how he was convinced that he knew exactly how she was feeling about her life -- but never said anything about having asked her. My take is that he never gave her any space to be her own person with her own feelings, her own desires, her own dreams -- and though she was outwardly as successful as anyone could want, it wasn't what she wanted to be doing, and she saw no way out of the life her father had designed for her other than killing herself.

[0] http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/Stanford-student-com...

Mikeb857• 11 years ago

This is symptomatic of our society at large (actually many societies, maybe even modern 'global' society). The middle class is being squeezed by rising costs, so your two options are to be perpetually poor (basically limiting you to a life of indentured servitude), or to out-compete your rivals and achieve an upper-middle class to upper class income, and all the perks that come with it.

My wife and I struggle with this constantly - income and ability to acquire resources vs. quality of life. While I'm struggling through University while working full-time (and trying to find time for vacations, and time with the wife) and looking forward to a life of working 9-5 (more like 8-7 these days), we also think about the toll this takes on people.

Not going to lie, we've been looking at various locations where the cost of living is low (actually, more like where you can get by and start a business with a more reasonable amount of capital), and we can basically live a simpler, higher-quality life. The 'grind' as it is in North America is gruelling, I know many people trying to plot their escape, though it's tough when its all you know...

Nothing like studying your ass off for 16+ years, only to work your ass off for another 40+ years, taking on debt that you wind up spending a large portion of your life repaying (while often paying more than double the original price just to service your debt), only to finally retire - old, broken and in poor health, and never enjoying much more of your life than 2-4 weeks every year...

malvosenior2• 11 years ago

Great post and I definitely sympathize with your position. It's worth noting though that regardless of where you live, starting your own business can be pretty grueling as well. Often much more grueling than a regular "grindy" job. I wish you luck though and hope you can post some of your experiences here.

pjmorris• 11 years ago

To add an anecdote to the 'grueling' thought: I worked for myself for five years, but took an office job just before the financial crisis, to 'ride out the storm'. When I sat down to lunch at the office holiday party, I felt a relief and relaxation I hadn't felt since... the last time I worked for someone else. Some people can handle the marketing, sales, delivery, accounting, taxes, HR, etc, but I'm better off outsourcing that to an employer.

Mikeb857• 11 years ago

It's worth noting though that regardless of where you live, starting your own business can be pretty grueling as well. Often much more grueling than a regular "grindy" job.

Very true. The security but lack of independence that comes with being an employee, vs. the independence and risk of being an entrepreneur (plus the capital requirement).

And on the topic of weighing my options, it's not helped by the fact I'm 3 years into an economics degree, so my head is filled with cost-benefit analysis formulas and me applying it all to my own life (or maybe it's because finals are at hand).

I wish you luck though and hope you can post some of your experiences here.

Thanks. I have been thinking of starting a blog, maybe it'll happen sometime soon. Just need something to write about (I may start a small-scale business this summer, could be fun).

onnoonno• 11 years ago

So you think we're driving each other crazy?

Resonates with me. But I still don't know whether it is really the others or just oneself doing the driving.

Mikeb857• 11 years ago

Maybe a bit of both? The idea of 'keeping up with the Joneses', if you will.

orbifold• 11 years ago

My advice would be to emigrate to Europe, it's not all roses and sunshine, but in Germany and most of the Northern Countries the standard of living is decent, you can receive an essentially free tertiary education, so you are debt free when starting to work, good health care, fairly decent working conditions.

ChuckMcM2• 11 years ago

I'm curious if you have a budget. Do you track all of your expenses and income in a package like Mint or Quicken?

Mikeb857• 11 years ago

Yes we have a budget.

When I refer to our 'struggle', it's not so much financial (we live within our means - modest vehicles and a small-ish apartment in the suburbs), but rather the mental and physical toll of working a full week, plus school and studying, cooking, cleaning, etc...

We're actually better off financially than a lot of people, for instance we could start a modest small business, however to ensure a 'stable' future (ie. buy a house, raise a family, etc...) in the city were we currently live we'd need either more capital or more skills/education.

Bahamut• 11 years ago

I sympathize greatly - I too have felt the squeeze, and if it weren't my good fortune landing in software engineering, I would be still depressed over the debt from undergrad + grad school, along with the immense credit card debt my parents left me to go with homelessness. I once wondered how I was going to pay back what likely will end up being $250k-300k - even still, I end up surrounded by many people here in the Valley who don't understand how fortunate they are in comparison.

enupten5• 11 years ago

I didn't think children inherited their parents' debt ?

hv23• 11 years ago

Curious, what would be stopping you from leaving the current system?

(said without a hint of derision, genuinely curious!)

Mikeb857• 11 years ago

Grew up here, family and friends are all here. Easier said than done...

onewaystreet• 11 years ago

Nothing like studying your ass off for 16+ years, only to work your ass off for another 40+ years, taking on debt that you wind up spending a large portion of your life repaying (while often paying more than double the original price just to service your debt), only to finally retire - old, broken and in poor health, and never enjoying much more of your life than 2-4 weeks every year...

What did you expect? (Genuine question.)

tedks• 11 years ago

Exactly.

What has life ever offered but hard work with little chance of reward? Unless you're an oligarch you will probably have a shit life.

There is no way this will ever change. Maturity is the process of getting used to this fact, moving on with your life, settling down, buying a house, having some kids (that better get into a top school or you'll die penniless), and repeat the process.

If you think you will, or should, be "happy" while doing this, you're a product of a self-indulgent culture that flared up in one country for half a century, and you'll quickly learn otherwise.

Mikeb857• 11 years ago

What did you expect? (Genuine question.)

What do you mean? What are my expectations of life?

I grew up in North American culture, so I'm perfectly used to this culture of working all the time. I've also travelled a fair amount (to other 'developed' countries and some 'developing' countries), and spent all my summers on a farm, so I've also seen a 'slower' pace of life. I've seen societies where not everything is bought on debt, where a 6-hour workday, and 2 days off every week is the norm - where there are holidays at every time of year, and a month of strait vacation time a year is standard.

Anyhow, it's not so much a question of expectations, but of possibilities. Everyone in society should question why things are the way they are, and how we can make things better - not just from a perspective of economic growth, but quality of life.

bsbechtel5• 11 years ago

>Nothing like studying your ass off for 16+ years, only to work your ass off for another 40+ years, taking on debt that you wind up spending a large portion of your life repaying (while often paying more than double the original price just to service your debt), only to finally retire - old, broken and in poor health, and never enjoying much more of your life than 2-4 weeks every year...

With all due respect, and I can tell from your other posts you are grateful for what you have, but this needs to be put in perspective. That 16+ years of studying your ass off is an investment someone else made in you, hoping you become a productive member of society that makes life a little bit better for someone else while earning a living for yourself along the way. There are roughly 3 billion people on this planet who are desperate to get any sort of education, let alone the education you were given, for free (before college). I get your complaints, but a 9-5 gig (or even an 8-7 one) would be considered a life of leisure and luxury for most of the world for pretty much all of history. In fact, the only time a life you are wishing you had has been common has been in the last 50 years or so in the developed world. I'd say we're pretty damn lucky. If you want to get ahead, instead of thinking you need to out-compete your rivals, I would instead focus on ways to make someone's life significantly better, then figure out how to do it for 10 people, then 1000....see where I'm going with this?

rquantz5• 11 years ago

If you want to get ahead, instead of thinking you need to out-compete your rivals, I would instead focus on ways to make someone's life significantly better, then figure out how to do it for 10 people, then 1000....see where I'm going with this?

This is a profound failure of imagination. The problem the GP is decrying is the late capitalist devaluation of humanity, and your solution is to suck it up and find a business model.

coldtea2• 11 years ago

With all due respect, and I can tell from your other posts you are grateful for what you have, but this needs to be put in perspective. That 16+ years of studying your ass off is an investment someone else made in you, hoping you become a productive member of society that makes life a little bit better for someone else while earning a living for yourself along the way.

So? People were investing those 16+ years of education to young people in the 50's and 60's too, and upon graduation they were able to make a much more comfortable living with less debt that present day degree holders do.

In fact, the only time a life you are wishing you had has been common has been in the last 50 years or so in the developed world.

That's not totally accurate. There's this conception that the mass population lived as some kind of slaves, constantly working to the bone etc.

Now, they might not have had washing machines and trucks and running water, but tons of traditional societies had much better standards of living than people give them credit for work-wise.

In some of medieval Europe's agrarian communities, for example, there were over 100 days of what we'd call "bank holidays" per year. In other societies, in Africa, in Polynesia etc, the whole community more or less lazily went about their business, more like a '60s hippie commune than 19th century factory workers.

ddebernardy• 11 years ago

a 9-5 gig (or even an 8-7 one) would be considered a life of leisure and luxury for most of the world for pretty much all of history. In fact, the only time a life you are wishing you had has been common has been in the last 50 years or so in the developed world. I'd say we're pretty damn lucky.

40h+ work weeks and small amounts of vacation per year actually are an aberration in history. They only appeared during the industrial revolution.

Prior to that, life was rather slow-paced and leisurely compared to how people live nowadays.

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/08/29/why-a-medie...

Mikeb857• 11 years ago

I get your complaints, but a 9-5 gig (or even an 8-7 one) would be considered a life of leisure and luxury for most of the world for pretty much all of history. In fact, the only time a life you are wishing you had has been common has been in the last 50 years or so in the developed world. I'd say we're pretty damn lucky.

I make a comment on the sad state of the system of institutions and expectations that railroads people into a constant cycle of work and debt, and your best response is that "it's better than certain points in history so be thankful"?

See, the point isn't that the 'system' we're a part of is unchangeable and eternal (although American politicians may argue otherwise, that it was delivered strait from the heavens along with a KJV Bible and the US Constitution), but that it's something that can be changed, and made better. And that a better pace of life does exist, today, it's real, some people do live it.

That 16+ years of studying your ass off is an investment someone else made in you

It's paid forward, but if you pay taxes, raise children, etc..., it's not free; it's not 'given' to you, any more than unemployment benefits are 'given' to someone who pays into the system, or health care is 'given' to someone who pays taxes (or their health care premiums).

If you want to get ahead, instead of thinking you need to out-compete your rivals, I would instead focus on ways to make someone's life significantly better, then figure out how to do it for 10 people, then 1000....see where I'm going with this?

You may not see it, but this 'scaling' of your business is an attempt to 'out-compete' your rivals.

Anyhow, I'm not complaining about my lot in life, you're right, it's not bad at all (no debt to speak of, good wife, we eat well and have leisure time, school was my choice and I pay for it personally), but merely questioning the direction society is going, and whether or not there's a better alternative.

You see, I'm studying economics, and a recurring theme is that consumers make personally rational decisions. In my case, it's a decision to stay here and figure out a way to pay the high cost of living, or figure out a way to pay for a lower cost of living with more leisure time. And along the way, I like to philosophise about the meaning of life, the purpose of economic systems, the financial/banking system, etc...

narrator• 11 years ago

This is why digital nomadism is so fascinating to me. People move to rural Thailand and make very low wages, for example $2k a month, from their online businesses and live like kings. $2k a month in the bay area is essentially poverty, but if people outsource themselves they can join the upper middle class, at least in another country using the so-called "micro multinational" strategy. This is what big business has been doing to the American worker forever. They've been doing production in countries where the cost of living is orders of magnitude cheaper and putting American workers out of a job because they can't work at the wages people do in other countries and still pay living expenses, especially when it comes to food, housing and health care. Health care is 1/10th the price in parts of South East Asia, for example.

saalweachter2• 11 years ago

Fun fact: $2k / month is 200% of the US federal poverty line. Nearly half of all Americans make less than $2k / month.

(This does not change that you can live like a king for $2k / month in some countries, but if you're making $2k+ / month, you're already doing above average for the USA.)

visarga• 11 years ago

using the so-called "micro multinational" strategy

That's what they call US emigration today? How is that any different from an Asian/Indian/African wanting to emigrate to US? The other guys are just like us.

enupten5• 11 years ago

Indeed. I think it's actually a double whammy.

Businesses in the US have cheap access to capital, and the diplomatic might - not to mention "bankruptcy protection" - of the USG behind them, while the common folk not. I wonder if there is a postive feedback here; unless the US invests great deal outside the state, it'd never enjoy the power it does in the world, which it seems very desperate to hang on to.

bandrami• 11 years ago

Sorry, are you really calling $24K / year "very low wages"?

anthay• 11 years ago

For a more optimistic outlook may I suggest spending a little time reading http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/?

alexashka3• 11 years ago

This is actually an even more extreme trend among some of the asian immigrant folks I've been in school with - their parents can be incredibly close-minded, overbearing and abusive.

The pressure kids feel is largely fictional, in the sense that the world ISN'T going to end if they 'only go to college'. For example when I graduated highschool and went straight to college and some of the folks I knew stayed behind for an extra year to get their grades up - my parents in unison with me, thought they were failures.

Looking back - it was smart. I am not working in the field that I studied, so the joke is on me :)

Another thing to realize is that there are a number of jobs that are not intellectual that can be quite fulfilling, honestly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc

This guy is a big proponent of more down to earth careers and I agree with everything he says, even though I'm a programmer.

In short - the pressures are due to having a narrow view of the world and what success means. If you widen it to include working construction or going to college to become an ultrasound technician - it's not so bad all of a sudden.

Parents just have to stop pushing their lack of achievements and phobias on to their kids - easier said than done of course. Solution? Incentivize intelligent people to breed more and try-hards and ignoramuses to breed less and the problem will be solved, in some number of decades :)

mwcampbell• 11 years ago

Another thing to realize is that there are a number of jobs that are not intellectual that can be quite fulfilling, honestly.

But won't the non-intellectual jobs continue to be automated away?

alexashka3• 11 years ago

I'm not really sure - I wish somebody would answer this question.

I initially read 'won't the intellectual jobs continue to be automated away?' and thought to myself, yeah, probably :) haha.

Which boils down to no matter what line of work - my hunch is that a lot of it is frivolous.

I heard somewhere that scientists came up with a solution to diabetes but since maintaining it is such a huge industry - they're going to keep things as is.

Of course that's likely a fictional story but I think the basic gist of it applies - we can absoluuutely optimize the current workforce to reduce oh I don't know, at least 10-20% of it just by giving some smart folks that goal right?

How many folks past 50 who don't like what they do are just sitting there collecting maximum salary while contributing less than a 30 year old if not STIFLING potential progress? I bet the answer is A LOT.

What if we gave them the option to earn 1/2 what they make right now, asked them to only come in to work 15-20 hours/week?

What is a 55 year old dude spending maximum salary on, honestly? Golf?

Thinking about it a little bit more - shortening the life-cycle for positions like teaching or managing in fields that move fast given the above proposition would not only be smart, but likely the move of the future.

By the time you're in your 50s, you're tired and likely out of touch. Give that space up for somebody young and curious while maintaining a decent standard of living. I bet my dad would take that deal in a heartbeat.

en4bz• 11 years ago

Electrician and Plumber won't be automated away any time soon. Both require more dexterity than any robot currently available and would probably require a 'true' AI as each situation would be significantly different. This is a problem where humans will be both cheaper and more efficient than a robot.

Manufacturing (by humans) is definitely on its way out though.

enupten5• 11 years ago

It's far more likely that it'll be the "intellectual" jobs that'll be automated away.

thinkr• 11 years ago

It's true that this trend is ingrained in the Asian immigrant community. To expand on your point that the pressures are due to narrow views when determining success, most people and especially Asians, measure success either by how much they have acquired or the status they possess.

Well if you don't have either, then you base your success on what your child/ren has accomplished. It's a competition within the community to see who has the more accomplished offspring - I see it every time my parents gather with friends or family - it's sad but it's all they know to do.

Anecdotal perspectives: So I grew up poor, but I would say I am quite successful now by most standards - yet I still feel the pressure to achieve much more than I currently have (just from wanting to be the best I can be, but also I feel indebted to my parents and want to give them the world). They never pressured me to be a $high_status_title, but I felt to pressure to be someone that could support them into their old age since I saw how hard they worked to provide for me. In a sense, I understood the world of my parents and because of that, I created pressure for myself to achieve greater success (by their standards).

I had a friend in HS, who was extremely smart, and both his parents were doctors, living in a wealthy neighborhood, etc. I constantly saw how much pressure his parents were creating for him, PSAT prep and SAT prep and all that, which I felt he didn't need. Whenever we weren't playing CS, he would be studying to make sure he got into the right colleges, then the right medical schools, though I never really asked him if that's what he wanted out of life. I felt bad for him because I did fine in HS and felt fine just coasting (I didn't begin trying as hard as I should have till junior year of college, but in the end I think I did okay with much luck involved, of course). Well he is now finishing up his medical residency (looks like his studies paid off) and I really hope he feels fulfilled in his career path.

Just wanted show that pressure to succeed can come from external factors or pressures we create for ourselves, but I feel things are only getting worse as now we have parents competing to get their kids into particular preschools and all the extracurricular activities that just consume what little childhoods we have to begin with.

You can be aware of the circumstances, and do your best to "opt out" of the race, but others will just see that as an opportunity to move ahead, continually fueling these unnecessary pressures.

foobarqux• 11 years ago

In short - the pressures are due to having a narrow view of the world and what success means.

Except success isn't merely a subjective idea. Even if you could somehow avoid internalizing other people's perception of you, you could not avoid how they treat you.

chubot• 11 years ago

You're right: you can't control how people treat you, but you can choose your environment. You can choose which people you are surrounded by.

If you don't want to be in a hypercompetitive environment, Palo Alto is probably not the place to be. Unfortunately those kids didn't have a choice.

After being here for more than a decade, my experience is that the Bay Area is kind of a mixed bag.

There is certainly the harsh truth that you need a certain amount of economic output to survive here. Lots of artists have been pushed out of SF over last decade or two, despite producing a lot of value for society.

So this minimum requirement means is a lot of rat-race-ness, long commutes, and boring jobs. But there are also a lot of curious and interesting people who aren't necessarily motivated by money. And they are doing very interesting things.

sidek• 11 years ago

As a student in my last year at an `elite' high school, I can confirm anecdotally that many kids are near breaking point because they feel it is `Ivy or bust'.

I think this is an inherent problem with the American university system, where the top tier is so small and so universally desired. I think Canada does it very well. Expectations to get into top Canadian schools are grade-based and their undergraduate enrolment is much larger. If you can pull a 90%+ average,you can be sure that you can go wherever you want in Canada for university. Certainly an undergraduate education at University of Toronto might be not quite as good as Harvard's, but it seems to do wonders for the mental health of Canadian children; none of my friends in Canada have even really stressed about university admissions.

For me personally, the Canadian `safety net' also helped a lot: although I am going to Harvard next year, I knew from day one that if anything didn't work out I had myriad wonderful options in Canada.

interwho2• 11 years ago

I feel compelled to respond to this, as I know from first-hand experience it isn't true. The pressure is definitely there for Canadian high school students, and 90 isn't enough for some schools anymore. Programs like University of Waterloo's Software Engineering and Mechatronics Engineering and University of Toronto's Engineering Science all require 95+ AND extracurriculars. Same goes for the "best" schools in other categories - Queen's Commerce for business, McMaster's Health Science for premed, etc...

lewisl9029• 11 years ago

I haven't really kept up with Waterloo's new requirements, but this definitely wasn't the case when I was accepted to their Computer Engineering program 6 years ago with mid 80s average with no advanced placement type courses except 2 IB certificate courses (CE was my first choice so I have no idea how SE or ME requirements would compare). They definitely do take extra-curricular stuff into account as well since some of my friends who had averages in the low 90s ish were rejected from the same program.

It's hard for me to believe they've since added a hard cutoff of 95+. It's next to impossible to get grades like that unless your highschool is handing them out like hotcakes at the eventual expense of their own reputation.

That said, the university application process is by no means a stress-free experience for students up here. Getting rejected from Waterloo would have been a huge blow to me at the time because I really wanted to experience their mandatory co-op program and understood the value it would bring to my professional career over the lackluster alternatives at other universities.

enupten5• 11 years ago

Toronto is probably much better than Harvard (atleast in Engr/CS).

r0naa2• 11 years ago

Having friends at both school and going myself to Waterloo, I can confidently say that this is not true.

UofT has very strong research programs but that's about everything. they don't give a shit about their undergrads, instructors, TAs or anyone who isn't in grad school or tenured.

I was complaining that some of my CS courses atP Waterloo were over crowded (+60 people) but it was before I learned about Toronto's +1,500 people lectures. I don't know a single person at UofT who is happy or having a blast.

So no, I don't think so.

stegosaurus3• 11 years ago

In the UK it's not even just 'Ivy or bust' in my view. The amount of career paths that seem to viably lead to anything other than "rent forever" seems tiny to me.

We have silly conflicting goals; the Government wants to encourage pension saving, so private pensions are now opt out. But for most, homeownership is a higher priority (because renting would eat away at that pension anyway). Yet we seem to be still pumping the housing bubble by focusing on nonsense like 'access to mortgages' rather than decreasing/stabilising the cost of housing.

An interesting statistic I like to use is the proportion of properties that are owned and owned outright. Very roughly, ~30% are owned outright, another 30% owner occupied, and the rest are rental properties.

You could then say that going forward it would be reasonable to expect that 60% or more of young people will eventually be homeowners. But that does not match up at all with the income scales myself and most of my friends seem to be facing (and we are in the higher tiers comparatively).

ryandrake• 11 years ago

I know it's going to be difficult, if not impossible, for me to not be that overbearing, demanding parent. If current trends continue, when my daughter enters what's left of the workforce in 20 years, she's going to be living in a world where 95% of us are in abject poverty, fighting each other over the last few remaining jobs not already automated away, while the remaining 5% own the automation and means of production and are permanently, insanely wealthy. There will be nobody left in what we'd today call the "middle class". Education will be one's last (even if improbable) chance at class mobility--and in such a world, only the best grades and best educational institution will do.

We're moving rapidly towards extreme class polarization--in 20 years, you'll be either an Ivy League graduate or eating dog food to survive.

seesomesense• 11 years ago

" she's going to be living in a world where 95% of us are in abject poverty"

Whining excessively is a rich world problem.

" abject poverty is "a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information. It depends not only on income but also on access to services"

The income level for abject poverty is defined by the World Bank as $1.25 at 2005 purchasing-power parity .

Are you really saying that 95% of the world is going to be earning less than $1.25 at 2005 purchasing-power parity

griffinmahon• 11 years ago

I've thought about this before, and its left me with a pretty anxiety-inducing idea: that in poorer countries people suffer for their lack of food, water, and medicine, and in the developed world - better off in terms of nutrition and safety - societies as a whole suffer from depression.

BruceM• 11 years ago

Someone (anontime) posted something here and then deleted it before I could reply. Hopefully they see this..

It sounds like you might find https://www.google.com/webhp?q=suicidal%20exhaustion#q=suici... interesting.

Good luck! There are plenty of people out there who feel like you do. Just survive a day at a time at first.

feynmanistheman• 11 years ago

As a high school student in the Bay Area, from what I see the problem lies within the system as a whole. Tiger moms and ridiculous amounts of APs aren't the cause, merely the symptoms. I'm not sure what you can do in Silicon Valley, when a bunch of parents who achieved success try to force their students down the same path they took. It makes logical sense for it to be Stanford or bust, when so many alumni live so close together.

AndrewKemendo• 11 years ago

I think most people are underanalyzing this as being another instance of "keeping up with the joneses." I think however it's more fundamental than that about someone's place in society.

From what we can tell of recorded history, our societies and influence has grown exponentially. Several thousand years ago it was likely uncommon to be exposed to anyone who wasn't within a few hundred miles of you - at the most. Today every person on earth has the potential (if not necessarily the means) to be seen by thousands or millions of people.

This shifts how we view ourselves. It makes you think that if you aren't personally impacting the lives of millions of people - in a profound and reasoned way - you are worthless. Where as in previous years having an impact in your small community was good enough, now you need to be globally recognized just to be anyone.

It's quite an interesting time for the ego.

fredfoobar422• 11 years ago

I was told from a very early age that I was going to be something special. I tested into Gifted Education in elementary school. I tested into the best public magnet school in Philadelphia.

The whole thing began to unravel in High School, really... got a "No Credit" for an extra-curricular college course, had to retake a year of Geometry, barely made it through High School Trig. But, I went to college to study Computer Science. And failed out. Failed the same Intro to Pre-Calculus class seven fucking times in three semesters. (Half-semester course.)

I took a semester off, and enrolled in a local community college. Changed my major to English. Graduated with a BA in 2008, in the middle of the economic crisis. I didn't have any Internships... couldn't afford to take one as I was working to pay my way through college part-time in the evenings. Got a shitty telemarketing job for the benefits, got fired, spent a year out of work, worked for the Philadelphia welfare office for a year and a half, and quit.

I lucked into a startup job as a Community Manager, but the environment was borderline abusive, and beyond the border unethical (buying lists of email addresses for their target market to add to their mailing list and calling them active users in fundraising presentations). After getting fired/quitting, I found a decent job doing Web Production for a speciality publishing company.

I'm 31, in debt up to my eyeballs with student loans, barely making ends meet, and working a job that offers no challenge and little opportunity for advancement. I have personal projects where I can get some joy, but it's hard to find the time to do those when you're working forty hours a week, with an hour commute each way, and seeing a huge chunk of your cash go towards paying off the creditors for your borderline useless degree. If I didn't have my self-taught HTML and CSS skills, I'd never be where I am, so that's something.

I still feel like I should be further along because of all the pushing I was given as a kid. They told me I'd change the world. Instead, I'm just some underemployed schlub. I'm not about to jump in front of a train, but for those kids with more pressure, I can't blame 'em.

Wow, that got long.

(I kept the names of the companies I worked for silent, because I try to keep this account semi-anonymous. The startup I worked for loves to threaten lawsuits against former---and current---employees who piss off the founder.)

littletimmy3• 11 years ago

Honest question: Why don't you leave?

If you leave the US, you can bail on your student loans, and you can start a new life with a similar/better standard of living.

fredfoobar422• 11 years ago

One word: Love.

I moved to New York City to be with the person I love. I'm not going to uproot them and drag them to Europe. I also like living where I do (maybe not this neighborhood specifically, but I don't hate it), so there's that.

rquantz5• 11 years ago

Tell me more about this. Where can you go to "bail on your student loans"? I would think there would be hurdles to this, but I don't really know anything about it.

Animats• 11 years ago

I used to keep a horse at the horse barn on the Stanford campus, and I've met many Palo Alto high-achieving high school kids there. I asked a group of high school students, mostly from Palo Alto High School, who were discussing grades "What's considered a good grade point average now", and was told, in a bleak voice, "4.5".

Some of them thrive on learning. They show up back at the barn, years later, after graduating from a big-name college. It's tough on the ones who aren't quite bright enough for the selective colleges but have parents who expect that level of achievement. I've seen the pain in some who know they're just not bright enough.

It's getting worse. Suicides for Paly and Gunn students (those two high schools are the closest to Stanford) have been climbing since about 2009. I knew about the five suicides from Paly, but didn't realize it had reached the point that there are now guards watching the railroad tracks behind the school.

thelogos• 11 years ago

I think depression may stem from the feeling of helplessness.

Being forced to perform meaningless tasks (because that's high school), having absolutely no power and control over your own life, and probably vitamin D deficient too from being cooped up inside all the time studying.

You could say many teenagers are already predispose to depression during these turbulent years. Their mind isn't completely prepared quite yet and having tyrants run your life doesn't help.

This trend of overemphasis on STEM education and grueling test prep in an effort to game the system started with Asian societies and it's slowly spreading to upper-middle class in western society.

I don't think the true upper class ever cared much for STEM education (legacy admission, "donation", MBA, ...).

This is not really a good path to go down. Not all of us were meant to be engineers and doctors.

Just look East and you will catch a glimpse of the future. Massive youth unemployment, many of them overeducated. Japan is dominated with contract workers. Korea has their "880000 Won generation".

Yea, their suicide rate is high. The problem is, everyone wants a piece of the dream and we can't all have it (or maybe we can?). They import manual labor from SE Asia just like we do with illegal immigrants here in the States.

With no hope of moving out on such meager wages, you'll have resentment and withdrawal from society. Is it any wonder that their birthrate is going down?

I feel like any technological advancement we come up with would still not be enough to overcome this problem. Mainly because the people with the power to make the change have every incentive not to do so.

Humans are imperfect. Human society will always be imperfect. The rift is a part of our genetic and the majority of humans will always be chained to indenture servitude. In a way, all this madness will always be a part of us.

guard-of-terra2• 11 years ago

"Massive youth unemployment, many of them overeducated"

Maybe we just have a population bubble that bust? We complain about low birth rates but don't really have use for even that dwindled number of young people.

enupten5• 11 years ago

What never fails to surprise me is our proclivity to think of things in terms of a simple order.

Surely, the there is enough diversity in humanity to disallow for so one-dimensional a topology.

(I say this after having been subject to years of down-nosery.)

tim333• 11 years ago

While it's obviously sad, and in some ways more surprising when the best and brightest kill themselves it's not the most common group. From the Samaritans UK based research:

Men from the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to ten times more likely to end their lives by suicide than those in the highest social class from the most affluent areas. Men in mid-life are the age group most at risk.

I hope more can be done to reduce suicide and make life more cheerful in general - I'm a member of 'Action for Happiness' for what it's worth that campaigns for the latter. In the past suicide and the like has been a bit ignored partly because there were worse things to worry about - death from war, car crashes, disease and the like. Now it's starting to become the biggest cause of death in younger age groups as the other causes get fixed.

http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files...

dismal2• 11 years ago

we need more psychedelics

littletimmy3• 11 years ago

One solution is simply to GTFO the USA. Countries like Germany, for example, have a much better work-life balance.

The US is going down a very dangerous route into a class-stratified winner take all society. The only solution is strengthening social security nets and redistributing wealth.

blueskin_• 11 years ago

https://archive.today/P6BhP

stegosaurus3• 11 years ago

As a young person living in the UK, it seems to me as if 'social mobility' is the zeitgeist, for lack of a better term. Everyone's talking about it.

There are two main issues I have with the idea. The first is that it presupposes a system in which some people are poor, and as long as it's possible for some of those poor people to climb out, we're doibg okay. I don't think that the issues surrounding that are worthy of further comment.

The other problem is that under capitalism it's fundamentally impossible outside of limited cases of entrepreneurism.

In order for a working class person to have the same lifestyle as a higher status person, they must not only match, but exceed the expectation placed upon an otherwise equal higher status person, because they have a head start.

Take homeownership in the UK. A 20something that has had a leg up into the housing market via parental donation or loan has an entrenched advantage forever. I could earn 60K GBP whilst my middle class (via birth) friends earn 40K and forever be 'behind' them in wealth terms.

I don't really have much more to say on the topic because I'm not sure how it could be fixed or what that even means, but it's been a central theme in my life since attending University.

scalesolved• 11 years ago

This is so very true, I earn more than a lot of my friends and save more but I'm one of the only ones that doesn't own a house as I never came into a lump sum.

I guess you just need to work with what you've got!

stegosaurus3• 11 years ago

Indeed, I've found a way to come to terms with it, but what does bug me is any sort of political discourse that seemingly ignores it entirely.

The idea seems to be that poor kids go off to University, get well paid jobs, and that's the end of the story.

Except it's not, because my 'well paid' is far higher that of someone who isn't paying rent.

Income inequality is a non issue to me. Wealth inequality is the problem.

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