Pigeon.ly, a Startup Focused on Serving the U.S. Prison Population, Joins YC

http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/24/pigeon-ly

by doppp • 11 years ago

324 72 11 years ago

Erikun• 11 years ago

NPR's Planet Money podcast had a show about Hutson and Pigeon.ly, well worth listening too. http://n.pr/1FZPCvw

antr• 11 years ago

I really liked this Planet Money episode, Pigeonly's story is quite inspirational, both the founder's story, and the market it serves.

ilamont• 11 years ago

I liked it too. Classic entrepreneurial story of a smart founder identifying a niche, validating it, and scaling from there.

diminoten• 11 years ago

The article touches on it a bit, but I wonder what kind of value a company as mature as Pigeon.ly is going to get from YC.

Not saying it'll be lower than others, just probably different.

untilHellbanned• 11 years ago

Pigeon.ly is a great idea.

One question though, is this the same startup that didn't pay the dev shop that built their website? Can't find those link anymore, but remember this was a big deal some time ago.

My apologies if I'm remembering incorrectly.

rory096• 11 years ago

Original post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8227225

Pigeon.ly's response: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8242361

rday• 11 years ago

I'm interested to see what others say here. I commented on this type of activity over the weekend, saying you shouldn't make it public.

Now we get to watch. Does anyone care? Will all of us freelancers have to start requesting full payment, by check, upfront?

Or was this all sorted out already, and the details simply weren't posted to HN?

smt88• 11 years ago

My contracts are prepared by a real lawyer who specialized in software contracts. They have long and detailed descriptions of how the quality of the work is assessed, what happens if it's not up to the client's standards, what happens if it's behind schedule, etc. etc.

"_____ will write software for ______ that does ______" is a valid contract, if you both sign it. The problem (and the reason that you hire a lawyer) is that it doesn't explain what happens if there's a disagreement or dispute somewhere in the process.

Pigeon.ly and the contractor both erred if they didn't sign a comprehensive contract. They both also erred by hanging their dirty laundry in a public place.

If Pigeon.ly still had a legal issue with this, I'm sure YC would have either A) not invested or B) forced them to resolve it.

rdl• 11 years ago

And this is why companies should pay ex employees and contractors in full and make be parting as painless as possible. Even if the contractor was horrible, unless it was criminal, pay in full for time, and err on the side of overpayment and a clean break.

Otherwise stuff like this gets brought up out of context, and even worse, sometimes it happens in private when someone is considering a job or purchase of product, and something like this can hurt you when you aren't even aware it is hurting you.

sstradling2• 11 years ago

I like this. I would love to see it expanded to work for migrant families (maybe also a less extortionate method for sending remittances back home) too.

Kalium2• 11 years ago

Depends on where they want to send the remittance to. You're not going to get that for places like Somalia.

sstradling2• 11 years ago

True, but Central America is a good place to start.

icebraining• 11 years ago

Why not? Somalia already receives $1.3B/year in remittances, so clearly it can be done. Maybe it's already as cheap as it can be, but maybe not.

nickalewis8• 11 years ago

I love seeing this problem tackled in YC! It's a personal issue thats effected my family & community as well, so much so that I've been focusing on helping try and solve it with Penmate (penmateapp.com). Seeing YC take interest in this speaks volumes, it's extremely motivating.

To the Pigeon.ly team -- If there's anyway I can help, lets get in touch. This definitely is a problem that needs to be solved. Best of luck!

arfliw3• 11 years ago

Site looks really good. Have you gotten much traction?

nickalewis8• 11 years ago

Thanks! I spent a lot of time thinking about UX, so that means a lot (note: there's a full mobile version available at http://m.penmateapp.com) We've started allowing families to send a free letter and photos last week so that's helped quite a bit.

danso• 11 years ago

About a couple years ago, the NYT published this fascinating article about Sendapackage.com, which it billed as "The Cellblocks' Amazon"

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/nyregion/sendapackage-bill...

Sendapackage was created by a former inmate, and its story struck me as a great example of a promising niche that is in plain sight, yet only a member of that niche would go through the work to make it a business:

Though it might surprise many who have no experience with prison, sending packages to loved ones doing time can be, as thousands of local families know, a Kafkaesque process. Beyond the hassle of going to several stores to assemble a package, and then having to take it to the post office or UPS, is navigating a welter of rules governing what is allowable.
The New York State Department of Corrections and Community Supervision publishes a list, currently more than 20 pages long, of who can send what, and how, and what is permitted and what is not. Food cannot contain poppy seeds; emery boards must be “nonmetallic”; boxer shorts and briefs must be of a solid color only.
“I thought there had to be a better way,” said Chris Barrett, Sendapackage’s founder, who seems to have discovered that way on the Internet. The items that Mr. Barrett’s service sells online (as well as through its catalog) have all been chosen in advance to adhere to the extensive directives put in place for gifts by the corrections department. His selection is comprehensive and diverse enough that the company bills itself as “New York’s inmate superstore.”

Not taking away from Pigeon.ly's announcement, just happy to see another business in this underserved, neglected niche (not sure how sendapackage.com is doing as I've never yet had the need to use it)...any service that makes it easy to navigate the data of the prison system is an overall net benefit to the public, as it impresses the need upon the system to provide this data.

Edit: to reference another NYT article: "Out of Trouble, but Criminal Records Keep Men Out of Work" http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/business/out-of-trouble-bu...

Given the lede paragraphs of the OP, I thought Pigeon.ly would also deal with the problem of getting released inmates onto their feet and connected to jobs and resources...that seems orthogonal to their current products but seems like it could naturally grow from their network of inmate/relative contacts.

telecuda• 11 years ago

Reading this just moments after shredding a prison map, putting a failed product attempt of mine on the shelf.

The idea was to provide a texting kiosk for prisoners to SMS friends and family.

Building the technology MVP to run an iMessage-like application on a tablet was the easy part. Getting prisons interested in making a few pennies per SMS - also easy.

Why did it fail? (why did we stop short?)

- The jails required hardware that, "cannot be turned into a weapon." Phone handsets are used as hammers and ripped from walls, so much that these came about http://media.columbian.com/img/photos/2014/08/25/257871_A_Po...

- Manufacturing and installing "safe" kiosks required for our app, like http://www.talton.com/images/kiosk_phone.jpg was a costly proposition.

- Internet access and power. Consider weak-or-no data signal, and ethernet & power that must be drilled through thick concrete walls.

- Existing jail phone systems with the hardware already installed are protective of their business and were not willing to put our software on their devices.

- Integrating with existing canteen systems (a prisoner's bank account) was also complicated. There aren't exactly APIs for that.

- Lastly, and I found this to be most interesting, in our discussion of beta testing with certain prisoners was deemed a bad idea, citing that those who have special access become targets for other inmates.

I loved Hutson's Shutterfly-like photo service when I first read about it, since it improved a prisoner's quality of life without introducing the technology hurdles above. Amazing founder story and product.

After my own experience, I'm even more impressed reading that Pigeon.ly is handling over 2 million minutes per month and would be interested to hear the "how we did it" story on that one some day.

ngoel36• 11 years ago

I suspect Hutson's success is largely due to the fact that (from what I can gleam by the TC article) his core offerings require no prison participation at all - and certainly no hardware distribution/installation.

In fact, both core offerings have been around for quite a while as mainstream services. My family once used http://www.localphone.com to make intl calls over VOIP via local numbers. And, of course, Shutterfly and others have existed for years to easily distribute a digital photo from your smartphone in print form.

The beauty of Pigeon.ly is he's taken these relatively straightforward products and adapted them to the prison population (and their families) who may not have been as aware of more scrappy options.

In my mind, it's more a brilliant marketing and hustle play - very well done.

tmosleyIII• 11 years ago

I've installed quite a few of the existing solutions in quite a few prisons. I think the biggest factor that you pointed out is the existing provider.

Currently, there are only a handful of major players that really offer services in corrections. They are all currently trying to turn into the Apple/Google/Microsoft of corrections. So when you are trying to offer SMS services, they already have those services bundled. Along with video visitation, commissary, grievance reporting (kites), inmate phones and just a whole list of other services.

If you are doing an application for a tablet device then you wouldn't need the steel inmate proof case. Quite a few of the current tablet solutions are see through plastic.

The best way to get your messaging solution into prisons is to piggyback on other solutions. There are quite a few companies with solutions that are running around trying to throw what they have on as many platforms as possible. The key is to build a platform and have it to where it runs your messaging app.

Another thing with some of the current messaging solutions in the corrections market is that they will charge the price of a stamp for messages.

If installation inside of a prison is another hurdle, there are companies that you can work with on that.

I was dealing with this for about 5 years and have a whole bunch more to say about the opportunities but I'll just stop here.

nickalewis8• 11 years ago

I'd love to pick your brain about the existing prisons you've worked with. I'm working on a new project soon w/ Penmate that I'm currently doing a bit of R&D on. If you've got time to chat, can you shoot me an email at nick[at]penmateapp.com?

nerdy• 11 years ago

I tried to open the doc for their job posting[1] before they opened it, it was locked... so I decided to look at their site.

Load the page and you're met with: "Technology products for those who need it most. Discover what Pigeonly solves for you."

Who needs it most? Hmm... the blind? Deaf? Poor? Homeless?

The only other hint (without scrolling) is in the title, another veiled reference: "Pigeonly builds technology products for the overlooked and underserved"

Is this the best way to introduce prospective customers or future employees to the product? It sounds very dispassionate for such a benevolent cause.

Consider being more direct about the goal of helping families connect with incarcerated loved ones. The current approach is something between meek and embarrassed. You need to tell people in no uncertain terms what you do, don't expect them to scroll and read to find out.

Why not just come out and say something like "Helping families keep in touch with their loved ones during incarceration"

[1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SCrkYMutodHHuVPOZt32fDBh...

nowarninglabel• 11 years ago

You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Pigeonly has a stated goal of serving more than just the prison population and the statements on their site reflect that. If you want to know more about their products then you should go go the product websites themselves[1] (that is where their customers will be looking.

https://www.fotopigeon.com/ https://www.telepigeon.com/

NaitJones• 11 years ago

I know Frederick and am very glad to see that he's making progress. Many don't understand how much social disconnection to the outside world contributes to recidivism and even to social degeneration. It's a problem because its hard for the people who love these inmates to keep them abreast of their lives easily. This product is likely to change this issue in a major way.

nickalewis8• 11 years ago

Not to mention the exorbitant costs placed on inmate's families as well. That's the one part of the TC headline that nerves me a bit. This isn't just meant to serve the prison population -- It's the entire family unit thats grossly effected, which certainly contributes to recidivism. Change is needed.

tswartz2• 11 years ago

Planet Money just did a podcast on Pigeon.ly.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2015/03/13/392862778/episode-...

Fascinating to listen to the founder talking about the difficulty of starting a business as a former convict. Its ironic that because he was in prison he best understands the target market, however being in prison meant banks and other investors viewed him and his business negatively.

(edit: Planet Money did the podcast on Pigeon.ly, not another company)

YokoZar• 11 years ago

Planet Money's podcast was about this very company -- they just changed their name. It's mentioned somewhere midway through the episode.

tswartz2• 11 years ago

Oh, I must have missed that. Good for Frederick. Their new business of providing prison local phone numbers for families out of state to use was genius. That probably saves inmates so much money in long distance calls. I'd guess that the vast majority of inmates are incarcerated far from their home and family.

bmoresbest55• 11 years ago

Yup. I just listened to this podcast yesterday it was quite good. Nice to hear about someone that made something good out of a bad situation.

ikeboy4• 11 years ago

What do they provide in phone service that Google Voice doesn't already do for free? Google will give you a local number and forward it to specific phones for free, and I don't see why someone would use a paid service over that.

arfliw3• 11 years ago

Think of the demographic here. They are not techies.

ikeboy4• 11 years ago

Can I make money reselling GV's services? I could easily put together a system that made it very easy to set up a GV forwarding number and charge for that.

MichaelGG• 11 years ago

They probably also do the dance of finding numbers that are unblocked. Prisons sometimes get kickbacks or have other corruption to limit inmates access to phone services.

It's often quite a bit of work for us to get numbers in the exact area needed for a particular prison. It's certainly not always as easy as picking out a random VoIP provider and picking a rate center.

hydrogen183• 11 years ago

How depressing is it that the US prison population has become so large there are industries around not just the running of prisons, but the needs of the inmates themselves?

The US seems to be completely OK with locking people up for anything and everything.

fapjacks2• 11 years ago

If by "the US" here you mean "the US government", then yes. Otherwise, no, most people in the United States in fact do see a problem with our enormous prison population. If the prison population per capita is so much higher than it is in other countries (and it is), most Americans can recognize that this is indicative of a problem with the justice system much more than a problem with the American people.

hydrogen183• 11 years ago

The US government is elected by its citizens, although the US President is elected via a labyrinthine political process. I haven't seen any reform to the legal system in the past decade. So even if the problem is seen, there does not seem to be any attempt to elect politicians that will do something about the problem.

SwellJoe• 11 years ago

And, yet, "tough on crime" politicians do remarkably well, particularly in polls on issues related to crime.

mhurron2• 11 years ago

most people in the United States in fact do see a problem with our enormous prison population

[citation needed] because no, that goes completely against my experience.

cubano2• 11 years ago

I think this...ANY...effort to bring modern IT services to inmates/convicts is terribly overdue and applaud this effort with all my heart. Convicts (their preferred label, not mine) are treated worse than animals in many cases.

I spent 22.5 months in the Florida DOC system, and did hard time with the nastiest of them. I built out a simple single-user DB (using Access, what else?) system for the law library at Gulf CI in the panhandle that allowed lightning-fast referencing of case law and cites.

This was 11 years ago, and IT and web interest was big, but nowhere near where it is now, so I was amazed at the interest so many fellow convicts had in my work, and I tried my best to teach every single one of them what I knew and to maintain and extend my work.

It truly felt like God's work at the time.

A lot of "lifers" (people with life sentences, with no apparent chance of release) hung out in the law library, working on their cases for years, and these peoples were so grateful for the work I did...the common refrain was "no one will ever work as hard as you can when it comes to your freedom", and almost all this law library crowd knew way more about the legal system than the highest paid lawyers I've known and used.

They were hackers in the truest sense of the word.

Sometimes, it was hard to reconcile the charges I saw with the people I lived and worked with, I'll be honest, but as I used to say, one or two (really) bad hours/days do not always make a person "bad".

[edits]

nickalewis8• 11 years ago

First, much respect to you for getting out and trying to help. I admire that a TON. Especially because i'm sure you know firsthand the difference it can make.

I'm hoping my work with Penmate (http://penmateapp.com) can help improve the library as well. In addition to helping keep families connected, we really want to improve the resources inmates have in prison, in particular books, magazines and learning resources. I'll be blogging more about it soon, definitely know what you mean here.

jamesfisher• 11 years ago

From your site:

Over 2 million people are effected by mass incarceration in the United States.

You probably mean affected.

cubano2• 11 years ago

Hey, that looks awesome...what a great idea.

If you are ever looking for coding help with the project, please let me know.

I'd love to help with this work.

Unfortunately, it's so difficult for me to make any sort of consistent living since getting out that I have not been able to fulfill the promises I made to myself about developing systems like yours to help these almost-forgotten and totally marginalized souls, so seeing someone else doing it makes we want to help again.

anigbrowl• 11 years ago

Good on Michael Siebel and YC (and everyone else mentioned in the article) for supporting Hutson. Companies like JPay and Securus are awful, awful businesses that prey on the families of incarcerated people.

There's a lot of evidence to that visitation and a reliable social network are key factors in improving outcomes for paroled and released prisoners, and lowering the rates of recidivism. Anything that makes it easier to maintain relationships between people in prison and those outside the prison who love them pays of a huge social dividend. We really need to reverse the trend of recent years towards making visitation and other forms of prisoner contact much more expensive and difficult in the name of 'security.'

TimMeade2• 11 years ago

First I want to put upfront that I work for Millicorp, who owns and operates ConsCallHome.com for the last 7 years, partially a competitor of Pigeon.ly

We think it’s fantastic that Pigeon.ly is going to YC. Every company that strives to help in this area helps reduce recidivism and even more importantly allows families to communicate with their loved ones. The more sunshine on the subject the better.

This has been an ongoing battle for inmates for the last 10+ years. Recently the FCC has brought rate regulation to the prison pay phone providers, but as part of that they require some pretty significant security requirements. A little much to go in here, but the declaratory ruling where the FCC allows companies like Pigeon.ly and ConsCallHome.com to operate require enhanced security to be implemented as part of the service which allows the inmates families to save on the calls. It was a four year battle against some very big companies to help get the first part of inmate phone reform accomplished, the second and final piece of reform before the FCC still has still not been ruled upon.

There are still areas and jurisdictions who are not following the FCC rulings. I hope everyone who sees this will reach out and learn more about this ongoing issue and this unfair tax on those who can afford it the least.

For more information on the security aspects, the best FCC document: http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2013...

http://www.ConsCallHome.com

m3mnoch• 11 years ago

now, someone just needs to submit a pull request to stripe for accepting cigarettes as payment.

roycehaynes• 11 years ago

Glad to see this news, Fredrick. Keep pushing!

brandonlipman• 11 years ago

I love this concept!

tiffanyricks2• 11 years ago

I am TORN because I love that YC is funding African American founders. I love the traction that the company has and that the team is solving a real problem. BUT I hate how it feeds into a stereotype that all black men are criminals. It is exhausting how hard we have to work to get others to see blacks in a different light.

nickalewis8• 11 years ago

How do you feel it feeds the stereotype

tiffanyricks2• 11 years ago

The article has the black CEO, Frederick, dressed in all black with gold chains and talks about him selling drugs. The article leads with the stereotype and not what makes the company unique. I believe we need more positive images of black men. Again, let me say I love the work that CEO and Pigeon is doing but I do not like they way this article portrayed him because it is perpetuating the stereotype that all black men are drug dealers and thugs.

juddlyon• 11 years ago

This is a good reminder that tech is about improving people's lives, not the latest NoSQL-Node-React-NextShit-OMGYouDontUseThisYet. Sometimes I need to remind myself.

wiseleo• 11 years ago

Remember meeting these visionary founders a few years ago. Great product. Looking forward to seeing what will happen after YC. :)

pigeonly• 11 years ago

It has been a little bit crazy over the past couple of days but I just wanted to say thanks for all the support. - Frederick.

Pigeon.ly, a Startup Focused on Serving the U.S. Prison Population, Joins YC

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