Show HN: My first startup, making premium long distance cyclewear

http://www.redwhite.cc/

by yuvaraman • 12 years ago

50 61 12 years ago

hari_sem3• 12 years ago

Very interesting concept. Where are you guys manufacturing the products? Do you design these yourselves?

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

hi hari_sem3. Its a totally original design. Its common for most new cyclewear brands to go to the Far East, pick out a factory OEM design, slap on their logo and start selling.

We did it the painful way by old fashioned sketches, 2D pattern design, fitting sessions and by tweaking over 10 dimensions for every size.

We engaged a manufacturer to help us get preferable prices on fabrics (they buy in bulk) and to stitch together each piece to our Bill of Materials and Specifications. Its why it took us 6 months to develop these.

We manufacture in Eastern Europe with help from our Italian manufacturing partner. Each piece is then shipped back to Italy for a final quality inspection before flow out to us in Singapore for distribution.

paulftw• 12 years ago

This information makes a lot of sense, and should be on the landing page as (one of) the main selling point(s).

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

thanks paulftw :). Theres a tonne of information and we didn't want to flood our customers with too much technical detail.

We are releasing a series of technical articles on our website, so stay tuned!!

Do read my super large writeup above. It will be condensed and published with lots of images on our site soon.

Flip-per• 12 years ago

Why don't you distribute directly from Italy?

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

We don't because we are currently a small company and distribute in South East Asia at the moment.

With scale and a larger US, EU customer base, we will be able to distribute from Italy.

Distribution from within the EU requires a business license, VAT registration and obviously a premises. These cost money and are huge fixed costs that a small firm can't handle right now.

We explored the option of distribution from our manufacturer's facility, but costs go up, because we need to pay fair wages for work done to distribute and handle customers - driving cost up again.

These key decisions are paying off - We now have brought to market (very quickly and with extremely high quality) - a great product at a great price point.

marban• 12 years ago

It'd be great to learn about some details how you got this process started; maybe even some hints on pricing, markup, challenges with OEMs, etc.

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi Marban, allow me to quickly answer your questions:

1) this link will help explain why we started on BibShorts : http://www.redwhite.cc/whybibshorts/

To summarize, we conceptualized RedWhite in late February 2014, started design work in March and launched in August 2014 :). You're hearing about us now thanks to a large Instagram following and us getting more active in forums to reach out to a wide audience. And we totally need your help to reach an even wider audience.

PRICING : SGD210 (Singapore dollars) including shipping and taxes. We have an online store here on our site :)

OEM Challenges : We searched for a manufacturer for MONTHS until we found him in Italy. It made perfect sense from a supply chain perspective because our fabrics and chamois are made in Europe, so keeping manufacturing there is key to keeping costs low. Our Italian manufacturing partners own factories in Eastern Europe and meet our strict policy on quality.

Every RedWhite BibShort is made in Romania and shipped back to Italy for a final quality inspection before sent to us in Singapore. We keep costs low by piggy backing on larger shipments from our manufacturer, keeping our transportation costs and carbon footprint low.

ryanSrich• 12 years ago

Great idea and what appear to be quality products. Can you talk about how you manufacture and supply these?

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi ryanSrich,

Certainly :)

We manufacture in Romania. The fabrics are supplied to us by MITI from Urganano, Italy. The Pad (chamois) is trucked in from our Italian chamois supplier.

Trucking is fast, cheap and with EU carbon regulations - also environmentally friendly. All our suppliers are not more than 4 hours from the central factory - keeping our supply chain tight and efficient.

The central Romanian factory is owned by our Italian manufacturing partner who stitches the fabrics together according to our design files.

The final Bibs are quality inspected in Romania and are trucked to Italy for a final quality inspection before sent to us in Singapore for distribution.

We currently sell online and locally through a network of dealers. While we work to get these sold globally at your local bike shop, the online store will be the way for you to get hold of these.

Every order is packed by one of us (2 founders) and sent to you from Singapore :).

hoopism• 12 years ago

The image took over 25s to load for me. Just FYI.

gtani• 12 years ago

first JPEG is 224k

stefap2• 12 years ago

I gave up after 2 mins.

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

I'm sorry for this stefap2. We have made some tweaks and the site should load more quickly now. Take a look :)

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

hi Hoopsim, we've made some tweaks :) It should load faster now

sah882• 12 years ago

You may want to consider condensing/minifiying your JS/CSS and using a CDN for images. After 10 minutes the website still isn't loaded and there are a huge number of blocking image transfers that are going very very slowly.

12+MB for a landing page is also probably a little on the heavy side of things.

acveilleux• 12 years ago

So much this. I gave up on the load, it was painfully slow. Like I was back in the late 1990s modem days.

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi acveilleux, i'm sorry for the slow load times. We've made some tweaks and it should load quicker now :)

fredkelly• 12 years ago

gabemart• 12 years ago

Agreed.

The online Google PageSpeed Insights tool is a decent place to start:

https://developers.google.com/speed/pagespeed/insights/?url=...

icedog• 12 years ago

Took me 4.5 minutes, 103 requests, 13.1 MB transferred data.

Going to "Online Store" was also ~4MB more and 25 seconds...

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi @sah88, we've made some tweaks and I hope the load time has improved on your end :)

shiftpgdn2• 12 years ago

Did you pick the .cc tld since it's what Rapha uses? I imagine that's your main competitor.

colbyh2• 12 years ago

So many cycling brands use .cc domains, not sure who started it. Also the main competitor for this sort of style is probably more along the lines of Castelli/Gore than Rapha. I dig the idea, but the aesthetic types are going to stick with Rapha/SAS/etc.

shiftpgdn2• 12 years ago

His page actually wasn't even loading when I attempted to visit it. Just check and yeah you're right. I wonder when somebody is going to come along and match Rapha in everything but price.

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi Colbyh,

I couldn't reply on Product Hunt sadly because apparently I need to be recommended by the community.

Your choice in BibShorts is a highly personal one. Perhaps other brands resonate more with your wants and aspirations and tastes.

We are focused on what we do - A BibShort for long distance cycling. Our website has only 1 product that's built from the ground up to enable you to ride that century or that AUDAX in comfort.

Doctor_Fegg• 12 years ago

.cc = cycling club (yes, I know, not officially). It's reasonably common - not just Rapha but road.cc, vulpine.cc and others.

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

hi shiftpgdn,

We chose .cc because its synonymous with "cycling club". Its also quickly becoming a common web domain for cycling clothing brands.

No - we are not competing with Rapha. Rapha has a very different and unique value proposition and customer base.

Our niche is - Long Distance BibShorts. When you come to us, we want you to come with the confidence that you will absolutely find a great BibShort.

davidw2• 12 years ago

Cool! Why shouldn't I just get a pair of Castelli shorts, though?

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi David,

That is a personal choice :). Castelli do make great products - undoubtedly.

However, we are a different company. Our niche is - Long Distance BibShorts.

When you come to us, we want you to have absolute confidence that what we give to you is a BibShort that is designed specifically for your long ride. No compromise has been made in achieving this end in the design process.

For example, we don't print on our lycra because its a nylon based fabric that's softer and more luxurious than a printable polyester based version. Comfort reigns king over graphics and that's a choice we made happily to achieve the end goal - long distance comfort.

The chamois isn't one that's used by many other brands. We searched for a non mainstream manufacturer. The chamois is manufactured using a Thermic Moulding process - no one else makes a chamois this way and what you get is a plush, breathable chamois that lasts and doesn't flatten out after long hours.

davidw2• 12 years ago

I didn't ask to be a jerk or anything, I'm just asking the same question that others will.

Castelli and others produce shorts made for professional cyclists, who do long rides too.

You know where I see more room for improvement? Winter cycling gear. There's a huge difference between good stuff and shitty stuff. Example: Milano Sanremo a few years ago when it was snowing, and lots of riders were riding with non-team issue Castelli Gabba jerseys because they're one of the best things going for cold weather racing.

I guess that's not a problem for you in Singapore, but here in Italy, winters can get cold and wet.

I don't know... Italian cycling clothing manufacturers are the best in the world (which is why you source from them), and I'm just not seeing a compelling reason to go with someone else.

You might look at Rapha - they've managed to carve out a niche despite not being from a traditional cycling nation.

fishnchips• 12 years ago

GET http://code.jquery.com/dist/jquery-migrate.min.map 404 (Not Found)

sah882• 12 years ago

.min.map files are only requested when you have the dev console open.

http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/developertools/source...

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi sah88, thanks for this :)

We are a small team of 2 and we handle customers, marketing, product design, web development, graphics, 4 social media sites and a blog with content every week.

Your comments are useful, please keep them coming! We will be working double time to make the site faster and better.

ThatOneDan• 12 years ago

Looks nice and all, but what sets you apart from Rapha/ Castelli/ Assos/ Louis Garneau/ Primal/ all of the other companies that made mid-high range bibs?

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi ThatOneDan,

Good question and we get asked that ALL the time!

Okay, simply put, many brands have offering at multiple price points. Obviously to cater to different budgets, tastes, aspirations, wants etc (its a rather long list).

We are different. We chose to focus on a BibShort specifically for long distance cycling. This is our niche and what the RedWhite brand stands for.

filleokus• 12 years ago

Looks nice. But to chime in with all the other comments, why should I chose your product over the ones I currently buy?

I'm not sure on how custom printing stuff on this kind of fabric works, but I would be really interested in a service that allows me to pick colours. Or perhaps add my name or something to small quantities of bibs (like 1 or 2).

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi fillokus,

The lycra we use can't be printed on. And that's a good thing!

A printable lycra is polyester based. Ours is nylon. The difference is the key to a lycra that feels luxurious to one that doesn't.

Some tech facts:

Graphics are printed onto stretch fabrics using a process called sublimation printing. The ink based graphics are printed onto a paper, from which they are heat pressed onto the fabric to allow the colors to adhere to the individual fibres within the fabric. This process is only possible with polyester based fabric. Nylon fabrics simply melt when subjected to heat from the sublimation printing process. However, we didn’t want to compromise on our design principle for The Bib and stuck with a nylon based fabric to achieve the superior comfort unattainable when using printable lycra.

Nylon too is a less complex molecule (without the dreaded Benzene ring that's in Polyester). This means that from a chemistry standpoint, its a less rigid polymer, achieving that soft and compliant feel.

I wouldn't say why you should choose us over one of the big brands. That's a personal choice after all! But, i will say that we are a super niche company that's thrown 6 months of time into making a product that works on your 6 hour ride.

Do follow us on Instagram (redwhite_apparel) and see what we do there :)

siddg• 12 years ago

is this only available in singapore?

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi siddg,

We well worldwide through our online store at www.redwhite.cc

The indicated price includes shipping and taxes :)

gsands• 12 years ago

Congrats on your first startup, but I really recommend you address the issues with your site immediately.

Like others, the top image(s) never loaded for me and I'm on a 50mbps connection.

I also wasn't even aware there was anything below the fold either, since you have such a nice sticky footer!

If I were you I'd just scrap the top section while you get the compressed image decisions made so the products are front and center when users hit the page.

Feel free to msg me, email's in my profile.

rday• 12 years ago

Second this.

Thanks for indicating content below the fold!

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

hi gsands, Thanks for your tips and information! We have made some tweaks. Do take a look :).

pmontra• 12 years ago

Too slow, gave up.

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

hi pmontra,

We've made some improvements. Do take a look : www.redwhite.cc

Kluny• 12 years ago

You say that they're designed for incredible fit but how can that be possible when there are only three size variations? People come in more than three sizes, after all. And are these available in women's sizes at all?

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi Kluny,

We currently offer in only 3 sizes and are releasing larger sizes soon.

There are only 3 size variations given the type of fabric and construction. For example, the size S fits a 165cm tall guy with a size 29 waist and ALSO fits me (177m, 70kg and a size 33 waist). The material is a 220gsm nylon based lycra with 18% elastane.

Its absolutely perfect for fitting a wide range of body sizes and we complemented it with a detailed look at 10 key dimensions which make up the sizes, allowing us to fit 90% of cyclists.

Of course, there will be odd sized person who requires a larger or a small size. We are working very hard on sizing for these types of people and are close to perfecting them. It takes time to gather a variety of people, measure them, make prototypes and test.

Its also very expensive for a small company, so we chose to focus on 3 key sizes for now.

AndrewKemendo• 12 years ago

As a former competitive cyclist, I always get excited about new bibs and the endbib thing looks interesting.

I am curious what the purpose of the Singapore page is though: http://www.redwhite.cc/singapore/

Were you guys given money by Singapore or something and that was a stipulation?

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi Andrew,

That article's purpose is to introduce customers to our home base. It was in response to many enquiries asking if Singapore was in China - believe it or not!

No, we received absolutely no funding. RedWhite Apparel is entirely self funded by 2 passionate cyclists. Its a significant investment from our savings and I believe with our current focus on customers, quality and our tenacity, we will become as well known as the big guys.

dodders2• 12 years ago

The site claims these bibs are designed for "exceptional fit and performance" but I suspect you will have to provide more justification to persuade people to buy these instead of Rapha/Assos/Capo, the current kings of endurance bibs.

AFAIK, all the above brands use pads from EIT (http://www.elasticinterface.com/) - are your pads better and if so, why?

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Hi dodders, the RedWhite BibShorts is our take on what an endurance bibshort really means. We focus on 5 key areas to achieve this vision and I hope the detailed writeup below answers all your questions:

1) Chamois 2) End Bib 3) Fabrics 4) Fit 5) Construction

CHAMOIS

The chamois is not from Cytech. Our chamois was selected after a detailed analysis of all offering from the top european chamois manufacturers. We chose a chamois from who we think is the most innovative designer currently. Its a relatively new company that’s using very a very unusual and disruptive manufacturing process. I will explain below.

The chamois’ construction is unique. Typical chamois’ are built in an old fashioned way. A 4mm low density foam with a top layer that contacts the skin is laid down. Next, a 10mm high density foam layer is pasted using a polyurethane celluloid strip. The third layer uses a 2.5mm foam with another polyurethane celluloid strip. The entire construction is then warmed up to 200°C to fuse the layers together. The layers are pre-cut before this into the desired chamois shape. This process stresses the materials and cause hardening and reduction of breathability. Also, with age and use, the layers tends to peel apart as the celuloid strips age.

The chamois we use is manufactured using a more modern process that ensures the resultant chamois is 1 solid, formed piece with maximum breathability and durability.

The chamois’ layers are laid together and the entire fabric layers (called a laminate) is put into a cutting machine which cuts out the chamois’ rough shape. The pre-shaped cutouts are put into a Carving machine which further refines the chamois’ shape and removes all excess material which is recycled. Finally, the cut and carved chamois is put into a shaped mould (with gel inserts) and placed into a Thermic Moulding machine which gently fuses all the layers while shaping the 3D features of the pad without stressing the used materials. This creates a 1 piece, modern chamois thats perfect for:

-repeated use without typcial “chamois fatigue” where the chamois loses its shape after hours in the saddle and ceases to work.

- a long lasting a durable chamois that can be hot washed at 60 deg C.

-A soft breathable chamois with all foams and fabrics unstressed.

END BIB (GRIPPER)

The latest trend is the PGE (printed gripper elastic). Many brands use this instead of the outdated silicone strip. We have experimented with PGEs, but we find that they start stretching and curling after 6 months of use. You need a certain amount of polyester fibre content in the PGE to reduce creep stress (polyester fibres don't stretch and help anchor the elastane fibres to prevent stretch fatigue). We wanted something better and found a material that uses thick polyester and elastane fibres (lycra fibres are finer) with many microdots of silicone on 1 side. Each dot works together to give an even and non tacky grip on the skin, while the lycra base (which we oversized) ensures your skin still breathes and doesn't over constrict your thighs.

This uses the theory of surface area. By using microdots across a wide gripper, you achieve 2 fantastic results:

-Increased surface area between the dots that allow the skin to breathe.

-Increased gripping surface area through the dispersed dots that ensure a “gecko” like grip on the skin. Works well with hairy legs, even better with shaved legs.

FABRICS

We use Italian fabrics from MITI. Again, this is carefully selected. We went through 12 prototypes with various combinations of fabrics before finding the perfect one. The fabric we use for our Bibs is a 220gsm matt black fabric with 20% Lycra POWER (an elastic fibre with compressive qualities) and 80% nylon.

There is a reason for this choice.

When we set out to design The Bib, we wanted to achieve a natural next-to-skin feeling when you wear them. The material should be soft, supple and highly breathable. We also wanted the fabric to have good anti-abrasion qualities. Nylon fibres are superior to Polyester in this manner.

We are often asked why we chose the color black for our Bibs. Why don’t we have beautiful graphics on our Bibs? This too is a conscious decision.

The Mesh fabric is equally great. Its red to avoid it looking dirty after multiple use (white bibs turn brown after a while). Its really stretchy and very soft on the skin. Its a material that needs to be patterned well to bring out its best qualities. You can't skimp on it - which is why our Bibs use a solid back mesh with no fancy ventilation cutouts. Use too little, and it won't work well in holding up The Bibs.

FIT

Its very tempting to go to a manufacturer and ask for an existing model and simply slap your brand on it. We chose not to do this because we felt that the fit and sizing must also take into account the materials used. A higher quality fabric allows us to dial in a custom sizing and reduce panels simply because it stretches and holds the skin better.

Our size S is 2 cm shorter than our Size M which is 1.7cm shorter than our size L. Why? We found that these dimensions fit the top 90% of individuals' anatomical dimensions. Also, its what we found from practice after 12 prototype and many fitting sessions. Our size S fits a 165cm guy with a size 29 waist AND it also fits me (i'm 70kg with a 33 waist). The materials stretch that well. I chose the Size M because i personally like less compressive shorts.

Going beyond dimensions, we thought hard about the shape of the panels of lycra and mesh to use. We understand the 2 main pain points for most people when getting a Bib:

- Fitting the gut. Lets face it, not all of us have bodies like Chris Froome. Most of us carry a slight belly, sometimes more. A “pro-cut” bib-short simply doesn’t work.

-The bib-straps fit great off the bike, but when tucked into an aero position, they sag and flop about.

To address the issue with fitting for regular people, we put in a front panel of lycra, just below the navel.

This panel avoids cutting horizontally below and into the belly and gives a generous amount of room for the belly to expand out. The added benefit of this is increased breathing room as we tend to breathe with our diaphragm when exerting ourselves. On top of this, the design doesn’t make The Bibs any less fitting for people who want a tight, well fitting pro-cut Bib. This is the beauty of the pattern design we worked on.

The mesh is patterned to follow the curves of the lycra, instead of simply being a strap that stitched on after the short part has been designed. The design intent was to create a mesh that hugs the body all around and remains like a skinsuit even when the user goes into the drops. When you use our Bib, you will notice that the straps remain tight and comfortable instead of buckling and flopping about.

CONSTRUCTION

We use flatlock stitching throughout the Bibs - even beneath the shorts (the part that contacts the saddle). This increases durability even with regular rubbing with the saddle. The stitching we use is a high density flatlock stitch that requires extremely experienced hands and special stitching machines.

Our Bibs don’t have a seam on the inner thighs (that usually contacts the saddle). This is a common failure point on most Bibs and we could only removed this because the fabric allows us to stretch a whole panel of Lycra to wrap the inner thighs. It also improves comfort.

KEY POINTS :

1) Its a long distance Bib Short designed specifically for that purpose in mind without breaking the bank. It uses an innovative gripper, a plush chamois made using modern techniques and a well thought out pattern design that’s put together using 100% flatlock stitches.

2) Our retail price SGD210 online inclusive of all taxes and shipping. This is a mid priced bib short that punches above its price class.

3) We use a 220gsm MITI Lycra fabric. Its nylon based rather than polyester to helps us achieve the desired natural feel on the skin.

4) We manufacture in eastern europe in a factory owned by an Italian firm. We did it the painful way by old fashioned sketches, 2D pattern design, fitting sessions. The manufacturer helps us get preferable prices on fabrics (they buy in bulk) and to stitch together each piece to our Bill of Materials and Specifications. Its why it took us 6 months to release it.

dodders2• 12 years ago

That's a great response. Thanks.

I suggest that you put this detail on your website - it's a compelling argument for the product (apologies if it's already there but I couldn't find it if so).

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

HELLO EVERYONE!

Its been a rather long discussion and I can't thank everyone enough for joining this conversation with us. I'm Yuva, one of the co-founders of RedWhite Apparel.

I hope I've clarified all questions, but please keep them coming! If I don't reply quickly, it means that i'm likely in bed given the massive time difference.

Rest assured, we aim to reply within 12 hours.

yuvaraman27• 12 years ago

Do check out an article we published today to answer most of the questions here :

http://www.redwhite.cc/bibs-detailed/

Show HN: My first startup, making premium long distance cyclewear

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