Microsoft accepting Bitcoin

https://commerce.microsoft.com/PaymentHub/Help/Right?helppagename=CSV_BitcoinHowTo.htm

by DavidSJ • 12 years ago

416 146 12 years ago

commerce.microsoft.com

FatalLogic• 12 years ago

Better link: https://commerce.microsoft.com/PaymentHub/Help/Right?helppag...

dang2• 12 years ago

Thanks. Changed from https://commerce.microsoft.com/PaymentHub/Help/Show/toc_link....

oska2• 12 years ago

The official announcement is now available, if you want to consider changing the link again.

http://blogs.microsoft.com/firehose/2014/12/11/now-you-can-e...

jc123• 12 years ago

Sounds big. Could get the other large tech companies to look into Bitcoin more and evaluate their efforts.

ubersync• 12 years ago

Bitcoin totally makes sense for digital products, especially for transaction with small amounts. With Bitcoin you can send even $0.01 for a very low fee.

NhanH• 12 years ago

Default fee for a transaction is 0.0001, which is ~$0.0355 at current bitcoin price.

baddox• 12 years ago

In the current reference clients, transactions smaller than 1000 bytes and less than 0.01 BTC are sent without a transaction fee.

roasbeef• 12 years ago

The default relay fee is actually now 1,000 satoshis (0.00001), not 10,000 satoshis (0.0001).

chuckup4• 12 years ago

This is great news. I've always thought teenagers are the biggest market for bitcoin, they're less likely to have a bank/credit card. Knowing you can now exchange bitcoin for Xbox points makes accepting bitcoin a lot more attractive.

JoshTriplett• 12 years ago

I've always thought teenagers are the biggest market for bitcoin, they're less likely to have a bank/credit card.

Which makes it rather difficult to obtain bitcoin in the first place.

Knowing you can now exchange bitcoin for Xbox points makes accepting bitcoin a lot more attractive.

One major reason for the popularity of the cards you can buy in various grocery/department stores providing points/credit for the various stories (Google Play, iTunes, Nintendo, Xbox, etc) is precisely because you can buy them with cash, redeem them at the online stores, and use the resulting credit to make purchases, all without using a credit card. This really doesn't solve that problem, it just shifts that problem to "how do you obtain bitcoin?"

Idea for a business model: make Bitcoin gift cards, and get them into the various grocery/department stores.

Kortaggio2• 12 years ago

If you're comfortable with meeting a stranger in a public place and paying a small premium over market rates there's always the option to purchase Bitcoins with cash in person. Simply find your counterparty on a message board or LocalBitcoins.

bdamm• 12 years ago

Making the equivalent of a coinbase card would be easy enough. Then you get all the app support for spending your coin. Having an actual BTC card could be done with a scratch-off private key I suppose. Buying the card funds the public address.

chuckup4• 12 years ago

Which makes it rather difficult to obtain bitcoin in the first place.

True, but now with Bitcoin a teen can do work for pay over the internet (I assume minors cannot easily get a paypal account). I've seen teens draw incredible art, make avatars, do minecraft related tasks, light programming, etc. So while it's not easy, there is a way for them to obtain it.

I remember scheming for ways to make money online when I was a teen, but my only options were to get someone to send me cash in the mail, or have my parents cash a check (after asking me a bunch of questions as to why someone was sending their 14yr old a $100 check).

Hop over to btc-e and watch thousands of teens daytrade altcoins while chatting, it's eye opening.

ZoFreX• 12 years ago

In the UK there is some sort of electronic cash (I forget the name) that can be bought using cash in almost every newsagents. These can in turn be exchanged for bitcoins online. Pretty simple!

That said we also have pre-paid debit cards in some stores now, so it's even easier to have one of those.

(Also it is not uncommon at all for teenagers to have a debit card)

richardlblair• 12 years ago

Which makes it rather difficult to obtain bitcoin in the first place.

Not true. They just need to sell something illegal online and they got bitcoin. :trollface:

drzaiusapelord2• 12 years ago

cards you can buy in various grocery/department stores

These are a stop gap measure. Say I have $500 and I put $400 into Xbox points and $100 into Steam points. Then some new game comes out on PC but I'm out of cash because its all tied into Xbox points. This transfer is one-way, so my money is now stuck.

With bitcoin, or some other non-vendor middle-man, I have value sitting in my wallet ready for any transaction that accepts this currency. For someone without easy access to credit, buying a couple bitcoins (or some other cryptocurrency) seems like the better move.

Kortaggio2• 12 years ago

That's a great insight, it's incredible as adults how much we take credit cards for granted. An increasing proportion of my non-essential spending (e.g. non-food expenses) now come from online shopping and it's an incredible business opportunity for companies to accept something other than credit cards online, either for teenagers or for adults who can't get a credit card for whatever reason.

kristofferR2• 12 years ago

The FDIC estimates that 7.7% of the US adult population is unbanked, and 20% is underbanked [1]. Being un(der)banked is often very costly, it's one of the worst ways where being poor is very expensive [2].

On a global scale the issue is even worse, there are billions of people without access to proper banking services. I can't even begin to imagine how much time/energy/value/productivity is wasted globally due to that. Bitcoin, or another similar solution, may be the key to helping to bring those billions out of their economic exclusion and into a more prosperous reality [3][4].

[1] https://www.economicinclusion.gov/surveys/2013household/ (2013 National Survey of Unbanked and Underbanked)

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAxL4TB6pmQ (Spent: Looking For Change (Documentary))

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NfNwjJfrOg (What Bitcoin Means For Unbanked Economies)

[4] https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/cell-phone-connected-unbanke... (The Cell Phone Connected the Unbanked, Bitcoin Will Bank Them)

kordless2• 12 years ago

The idea of being able to use Bitcoin in games is fairly mind blowing, once you start thinking about the possibilities. Build a house in one game, trade it for armor in another.

chuckup4• 12 years ago

I think even more interesting is the idea of "colored coins" that represent actual items.

I'd start playing Magic: The Gathering again if the digital cards I bought were colored coins or counterparty-style tokens that I controlled, and could trade outside of the game.

If the game itself was open source and p2p, even better - there would be no worry of the company shutting down the servers/abandoning the game. The community could take over and make improvements to the client if needed. The initial creation of the game would be funded by selling the digital cards.

Sambdala• 12 years ago

Check out https://www.deckbound.com (project of a friend and business partner).

The initial concept is focused on Trading Card Games and built on the Bitcoin blockchain, but there are very interesting medium-to-long term plans that are very much in the spirit of what you suggested.

garethjenkins2• 12 years ago

Also checkout this hangout tomorrow for more discussion on games & blockchain stuff: https://www.reddit.com/r/xdp/comments/2ozqll/dogeparty_hango...

palmer_eldritch• 12 years ago

Next trend on the internet: teens doing webcam shows for pedos so they can get bitcoins to fund their xbox accounts.

The medias will love it.

kolev7• 12 years ago

Microsoft is accepting BitPay, not Bitcoin. It's like saying that Microsoft is accepting checking account payments, because PayPal supports it.

martindale• 12 years ago

BitPay employee here. Around 50% of our merchants actually accept some or all of their settlement in Bitcoin.

kolev7• 12 years ago

What's the weighted average of that "some"? I doubt if it's above 10%!

yawaworht_• 12 years ago

Posted to /r/bitcoin: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2oypbo/bitpay_empl...

onnoonno• 12 years ago

This is interesting. Could you give more detailed information? Volume in BTC vs. volume in $?

chatmasta• 12 years ago

It seems like a logical move. If a company wants to place a bet on Bitcoin, accepting it for services is a better way to acquire it than selling fiat currency on exchanges. By keeping profit margin in bitcoins, companies position themselves for a reward, without exposure to volatility risk.

Avoid the risk of purchasing bitcoin (either through mining hardware, or directly on exchanges), but gain the chance of capitalizing on bitcoin.

DavidSJ2• 12 years ago

You don't need a BitPay account to pay using BitPay. The transaction occurs on the public bitcoin blockchain, from any bitcoin account.

kolev7• 12 years ago

You can pay via PayPal without having a PayPal account as well.

tylerritchie2• 12 years ago

It's like saying that Microsoft is accepting checking account payments, because PayPal supports it.

So it's like saying an accurate thing?

kolev7• 12 years ago

Microsoft is accepting the US dollar, not Bitcoin.

TomGullen2• 12 years ago

We accept credit cards on our website... oh whoops sorry I mean we accept Stripe.

hnrandom• 12 years ago

No Microsoft does accept Bitcoin. They then convert the Bitcoin into USD. The distinction is who hires the middleman to convert. If a merchant asked all customers to first go to BitPay, get USD, then come back and give them the USD, then no they don't accept bitcoin. However, if a merchant takes your bitcoin and then gives you the goods, and after the fact finds the middleman themselves and converts, then they accept bitcoin.

kolev7• 12 years ago

Well, tell this to the folks who hold Bitcoin. They love when big merchants start "accepting" Bitcoin, but secretly pray that they won't have much sales as the selling pressure will drag the price down. So, there's a difference as this isn't a highly liquid market. If you pay Microsoft USD via your European credit card, EUR is sold for dollars on the Forex, but given that this is the most liquid market in existence, you're not gonna affect it. On the contrary, we often see on Bitstamp how 100 BTC can drop the price by 5-10% with a weak orderbook. I hope you get my point why there's a practical difference.

aluhut10• 12 years ago

Now I just need a anonymous way to get some BC without farming it or meeting some shady guy near the main station in Frankfurt...

I hope those BC vending machines get more popular here.

MichaelGG3• 12 years ago

Vending machines will almost certainly have cameras. And incautious use could still leave DNA or fingerprints. Best anonymity is to mail cash to a LocalBitcoin seller. Take care to get unregistered bills (ATMs and bank withdrawals could trace serial numbers, though WF claims they do not). Get big bills, then shop for change. Take great care in preparing the envelope. Consider using a remailer. Some post offices will even do that for you. Address it to the postmaster, and include a ready piece of mail inside. And remember, the seller could be an operative of whoever you're trying to keep anonymous from.

Biggest issues are A: your general geo location is known (though remailing adds one more party to penetrate, OTOH, if the post scans every piece of mail, auto correlation could be easy). B: buying stamps is getting harder, anonymously. Cameras all over. Automatic machines require credit cards.

Source: I was thinking of operating a hidden service for hosting. I wanted to see how much work it actually was for potential customers to buy anonymous BTC and spent a few days attempting to do so. For people wanting to have strong (state level) security, it seems very difficult to get it right.

Edit: A real solution is, if zero knowledge proofs are real and can scale, is to have an active market that uses that tech. Then you go and trade in and out and can get lost in the noise, if enough transactions are occurring. But we'd need serious buy in, otherwise it's pretty unique behavior. But it could be a great extra layer.

aluhut10• 12 years ago

The one in Berlin Kreuzberg, in an "alternative" Bar looked nice. I think it's the only one in Germany atm. I don't think they have cameras.

And yes. I had similar thoughts. The only local seller I came up with in my area that would sell smaller ammounts wanted to meet in person. Which is...I don't know. I have a bad feeling about that.

Since I "only" want to pay an VPN with them (maybe some space also if that works out), I would probably take the mail-way you've described if it would have been aviable.

I now think about paying the VPN with vouchers I can buy in a local shop somewhere but no idea if that works with vouchers I buy here in Germany.

frozenport• 12 years ago

Perhaps we should get them the old fashioned way, by hacking peoples accounts?

rvschuilenburg• 12 years ago

Can't you use one of those online 'buy bitcoin' options? I understand using an exchange for just buying bitcoin is a bit of a hassle, but services like HappyCoins support online banking so you can just select your amount, choose the destination address, et voila.

aluhut10• 12 years ago

I don't really see the use of it. I want privacy. This is why I'm interested in BC. There are no other reasons. Using an 3rd party that has my bank data is pointless because I could just pay directly through the bank/CC/similar.

celticninja16• 12 years ago

why do you need it to be anonynous to buy Xbox live credit/points?

aluhut10• 12 years ago

I don't need them for Xbox. It was a general comment since they seem to become so popular that even MS is using it.

RemoteWorker3• 12 years ago

So you want to be anonymous... But you automatically assume someone anonymous is "shady".

aluhut10• 12 years ago

I assume everybody who sells/buys stuff around the Main Station in Frankfurt is shady. Yes.

FYI: most of them are drug dealers.

placeybordeaux• 12 years ago

Mining is probably going to be your best bet for a while...

Animats2• 12 years ago

No, Microsoft is not accepting Bitcoin. Microsoft's hosted shopping cart program, like several other shopping cart programs, is now handling Bitcoins for merchants who accept them. Microsoft's page says: "You can only use Bitcoin to add money to your Microsoft account and then purchase digital goods at select Microsoft online stores. You can’t use Bitcoin to purchase Microsoft products and services directly at this time."

So this is apparently for Microsoft partners who want to accept Bitcoin. Any idea which partners do? Microsoft's site is rather unhelpful; it keeps demanding a login.

chuckup4• 12 years ago

This might sound corny, but you are my favorite gadfly. I've seen many posts from you over the years on slashdot and HN pointing out flaws with things I love such as python, and now lately bitcoin. I don't always agree with you, but I'm glad you're around.

the_rosentotter• 12 years ago

for merchants who accept them

Which now includes Microsoft.

If you didn't know, Microsoft has chosen to accept bitcoin through their payment provider (otherwise that option would not appear). So I guess I don't understand what your point is.

Animats2• 12 years ago

Microsoft's announcement says "You can’t use Bitcoin to purchase Microsoft products and services directly at this time." It's not clear exactly what you can purchase. In-game items?

MichaelGG3• 12 years ago

But at the top it says: You can now use Bitcoin to add money to your Microsoft account. Once you add money to your Microsoft account, you can use it as a payment option to buy apps, games, and other digital content from Windows, Windows Phone, Xbox Games, Xbox Music, or Xbox Video stores.

Which certainly sounds like normal usage of a Microsoft Account, getting stuff for Xbox. Maybe they meant you can't buy like Office or Windows with it.

oska2• 12 years ago

No, Microsoft is not accepting Bitcoin.

The simplest way to rebut your assertion is to link to the official announcements by Microsoft [1] and their bitcoin payment processor (BitPay) [2].

[1] http://blogs.microsoft.com/firehose/2014/12/11/now-you-can-e...

[2] http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/12/11/microsoft-chooses-bitpay-t...

brayton• 12 years ago

Biggest point is someone fairly high up at Microsoft said yes to Bitcoin - executives at massive companies are taking it seriously.

hnnewguy5• 12 years ago

executives at massive companies are taking it seriously.

Having come from they heydays of Facebook gaming, and having seen the rise and fall of numerous payment providers, I'm not sure how you draw that conclusion.

Implementing a new form of payment is trivial, especially one that's now relatively "mainstream", as Bitcoin is. I doubt there were many late nights in the board room considering this decision.

ww520• 12 years ago

Bitcoin price seems to have settled down recently, which is good for its day to day usage.

dang2• 12 years ago

Also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8733551.

NicoJuicy• 12 years ago

It's great for adding Bitcoin to their options, but is there some way to find out how much income someone has in Bitcoin (if they include it in their shop?)

The closest thing i found was by an article about shitexpress on http://goo.gl/4ri1B5 , they added paypal as payment method and their revenue was +370%.. So Bitcoin/Dogecoin/... was only 21,2% on day 1 of adding Paypal as payment option.

josteink• 12 years ago

That's a great point. But it doesn't fully get the big picture.

If you had asked anyone to implement PayPal support 10 years ago, you would probably not experience +370% increase in revenue. It would probably be more like 21,2%.

But because it stuck around and gained traction, it is now a sort of "default" for non-credit card payment. Which explains the 370% figure.

But PayPal is "evil" and we know this. It is a centralized outside your control. It can seize the funds in your account. It can be corrupted by governments. It can be instructed into what it can and can't support by credit-card companies, etc etc.

That not how currency is supposed to work. You own it. You exchange it. You give it to who you like to give it to. Your money is yours to do with as you please.

So we need a new approach which addresses the centralized nature of PayPal and the ownership issue of the funds. And BitCoin does just this!

Today it is 21.2%, but who knows? It may stick around and completely decimate PayPal if it becomes a new "default" for non-credit card payments. After all, if BitCoin is supported and has zero costs and a lower risk, why would anyone need PayPal?

hnnewguy5• 12 years ago

if BitCoin is supported and has zero costs and a lower risk

That's a big "if". As it is, neither of these things are true.

There's no such thing as "free"; services have to be implemented, infrastructure must be built, systems must be supported. Hopefully Bitcoin will be cheap, cheaper than the alternatives, but it won't be free.

Ologn• 12 years ago

Ah Silicon Valley's big ponzi scheme. A year ago today a Bitcoin was worth $820, right now one is worth $360. How long until it hits its inevitable price, $0.00, considering it has no value whatsoever? Who knows? As Keynes said, markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. Marc Andreessen talks about how older people have dot-bomb hangover fears, but nothing screams bubble to me than this modern scam known as Bitcoin. It has all the attributes of a scam as well - the anonymous architect, all the big players running off with the money or getting raided by the police. Yet the big names in the Valley keep touting this worthless ripoff. Plenty of HN'ers are involved in the scam, so this post is sure to get downvoted to oblivion by them.

What we have here on HN is me, who over a year ago when Bitcoin was worth $460 said it was worthless ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6753545 ), and we also have the scam artists who were hyping it then, are hyping it now etc. The potential Bitcoin investor suckers who listened to me would have saved themselves from losing the $100+ dollars on each Bitcoin they bought since the current price is below $360. I've been prescient, they've been wrong, but they're still running their scam and will downvote me to oblivion - they still have some suckers to fleece. The real thing to note is how hard the big names in the Valley are pushing these hashes that they know to be worthless, which has been surrounded by an architect who hid his identity, and multiple ripoffs and police raids. Supposedly the Valley is about people who have insights that others don't. In this case though, the big names and big money have one insight, this is a scam, and try to hush those pointing that out, as there are still suckers left to fleece.

VMG• 12 years ago

The potential Bitcoin investor suckers who listened to me would have saved themselves from losing the $100+ dollars on each Bitcoin they bought since the current price is below $360.

What would you have said in 2011?

esbio4• 12 years ago

Gold has no value whatsoever as well. Yet it's considered a commodity. Even money has no value whatsoever. Money is a promise from a government to grant some goods or services. If the government gives up, or its companies close down or leave, or decides to devalue its currency, you lose money regardless.

Commodities are assigned the value humans agree on, according to market. Bitcoin is no different. It's a digital commodity, but a commodity nevertheless. It will have its bubbles, but they are fueled by human greed, not the nature of bitcoin per se.

Goronmon• 12 years ago

Gold has no value whatsoever as well.

You mean other than in jewelry and electronics?

Even money has no value whatsoever. Money is a promise from a government to grant some goods or services.

I think you are using a strange definition of "no value".

celticninja16• 12 years ago

way to cherry pick your dates, thre were people calling it a scam when I got in at $5, there were people calling it a scam when I encouraged family to get it at around $10. there were people calling it a scam all the way up to the $260 peak and lost more when it dropped from there. People have called it a scam plenty of times and none of them have been right. the value has peaked and troughed and plenty of people have been fortunate to make a lot of money with it and you know what, it is not going away.

Your hypothetical day of a bitcoin worth $0.00 will come when something better replaces bitcoin, not because bitcoin failed against fiat/national currencies, but because it was superseded by a superior product.

RemoteWorker3• 12 years ago

Keep in mind that Bitcoin replaces itself all the time, and will continue to do so. It's an open source project that continues to be developed as we speak.

ufmace• 12 years ago

I downvoted - not because it's against Bitcoin, but because it's written like an absurd breathless hit piece. Every other word is scam, scheme, bubble, hype, fleece, ripoff, raid, etc, yet there are no meaningful examples of how it is any of those things. Let's at least try to make insightful points on here, and leave the hits and puffs for the mainstream media.

sreyaNotfilc• 12 years ago

Hearing this news makes Bitcoin that much more legitimate. Having Microsoft, a company known for its money and its practices to obtain large amounts of it, accept Bitcoin will affect its value in a big way. Or at least one would believe.

I kind of wish I bought Bitcoins when I heard about it a year or so ago (just like I wish I invested in Facebook). I did read an article explaining Bitcoin. Parts of it made sense, but other parts still left me confused. I wouldn't say that should deter anyone. As many things out there that we want or have, the results of the product is sometimes more important than its inner-workings.

webaholic• 12 years ago

If you had invested a year ago, you would have lost 70% of the money you invested. Consider yourself lucky that you didn't.

kleer001• 12 years ago

Well, at least it's a step in the right direction?

You can only use Bitcoin to add money to your Microsoft account and then purchase digital goods at select Microsoft online stores. You can’t use Bitcoin to purchase Microsoft products and services directly at this time.

gesman• 12 years ago

Curb your enthusiasm.

You can't purchase laptops:

http://mensk.com/PHOTOS/1/msft_bitcoin.png

Microsoft accepting Bitcoin

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