Internal Uber Deck Reveals Revenue, Rides, Drivers and Fares

http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-revenue-rides-drivers-and-fares-2014-11?op=1

by ssclafani • 12 years ago

93 68 12 years ago

gcb0• 12 years ago

isn't it illegal to swindle the market with fake financial data like this, without source? or since it's not public yet that's OK?

Moveit• 12 years ago

I was thinking the same. Data could have been planted and business insider was fooled?

gojomo3• 12 years ago

Illegal for whom? Which market? (Uber isn't a public company.) And BI has now made this "public" info. Do you have evidence that it's 'fake'?

Philadelphia3• 12 years ago

It's not particularly great in terms of journalism ethics, either, especially with the level of detail they're providing. They basically reprinted a leaked slide deck in it's entirety, without there being much of a compelling public interest in anything it contains.

gojomo3• 12 years ago

If it's true, who's harmed? What's the ethical principle involved?

onewaystreet• 12 years ago

The data isn't fake, it's inline with data that has been previously leaked. As for where it came from, Uber is in the middle of raising another round from investors. A lot of people have access to these numbers. Any one of them could have leaked this deck. BI isn't obliged to reveal its source.

nness2• 12 years ago

Uber isn't a publicly traded company, so certainly not illegal from the perspective of insider-trading.

Plus the article makes it very clear that it is a leaked document, and that its authenticity should be suspect as a result. Even if it were intentionally faked, not sure how it would be illegal from Business Insider's perspective to report on it.

prostoalex5• 12 years ago

Investors in the private market are presumably more sophisticated, which often boils down to ability to CC a CPA and a financial advisor on an investment proposal, and ask them to chime in.

calcsam• 12 years ago

Note that all revenue numbers are gross not net.

In other words, they represent total fare $, not the 15% of fares that Uber actually gets.

PeterisP• 12 years ago

The data includes (and the article analyzes) both gross and net numbers, and also the profit remaining after marketing burn and other costs.

Narkov2• 12 years ago

Counting gross fares as revenue is about as honest as Groupon counting customer receipts as revenue. We all know how that worked out.

wdr1• 12 years ago

How is this deceptive? They never intended it for external release.

joelrunyon2• 12 years ago

All I want to know is what my rider rating is...

mmanfrin• 12 years ago

Go to m.uber.com and fiddle around in the console. There used to be a way to get at your user object (it might have been closed off now, but I believe data is still there, hard to share data across a big app like that without exposing a little bit).

joelrunyon2• 12 years ago

There was a way to view it but they closed it off. I'm not enough of a dev to dig it up myself.

clamprecht• 12 years ago

Can you just ask your driver?

eash• 12 years ago

First post.

Just got a ping from an Uber recruiter who was linking to this article. If they didn't leak it themselves they're certainly embracing it.

MBCook• 12 years ago

Well 'making tons of money' is certainly better for their PR than 'driver hit-and-ran down a kid', 'exec suggests doxxing and discrediting journalist', or the usual 'is surge pricing ripping people off' stuff.

At this point they're probably desperate for anything with a positive angle on it.

untog• 12 years ago

All the more comic, given that they have so many employees now it's not like you're going to cash out in any IPO.

"Why'd you go work for Uber?"

"Oh, they make a ton of money."

"Do you?"

"Well, I mean, it's, uh..."

nness2• 12 years ago

driver hit-and-ran down a kid

For those curious:

"Family sues Uber after New Year’s Eve crash in San Francisco kills 6-year-old girl"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/family-sues-uber-dr...

woebtz• 12 years ago

Assuming these numbers are fact, has there been any extensive research on how taxi / private car / shuttle services' revenues have been affected by Uber and the like?

Pre-Uber, I probably spent $100/year on taxis / shuttles (Los Angeles). Post-Uber... I'm hesitant to look at my bank statements.

GuiA• 12 years ago

Yes, that's what I bring up every time someone starts with the whole "Uber is killing the poor taxi industry" rhetoric. Before Uber, I only took taxis to/from airports, so maybe half a dozen times a year.

Now, I take Uber at least once a week. Going out with friends? I'm going to spend money on dinner/drinks anyway, what's an added $10 in Uber fares to save me 40 minutes of public transportation? Every time a new type of business replaces an older model, the market size necessarily increases because the new model is faster, cheaper, better, etc so new customers are attracted.

I don't get why taxi companies aren't putting all of their resources into creating an Uber like infrastructure for themselves right now. It's clearly the way of the future, and 10 years from now the traditional model of standing on the sidewalk with your arm raised until some taxi driver feels like picking you up will be long gone, whether they like it or not. They might dig their heels in the ground and try to pass legislation all they want, that's just the way it's going. Their only chance of survival is trying to beat Uber at their own game, and every day that they spend lobbying in Washington or putting crappy ads on buses [0] is a day lost for their cause.

[0] http://i.imgur.com/GjJZQAM.jpg

smoe• 12 years ago

In Colombia, there are two competing companies that are doing that within all major cities. Uber like apps but with the normal existing taxis.

Interestingly, their massive popularity doesn't seem to be because of ease of use, but security concerns. Especially since a couple of taxi drivers robbed and killed an NDA agent. I met a few people here, that would never wave a taxi from the streets at night and some taxi drivers that wouldn't pick up one. By using the app every ride, driver and passenger is logged.

The apps are very well done and for me a perfect example on how you take an idea from somebody else and apply and sell it to your local market. My country, Switzerland, is unfortunately always far behind on nice things like this.

jkestner• 12 years ago

Maybe not all their resources, but there is a Hail a Cab app for taxis in some cities. It works fine for our purposes.

SyneRyder• 12 years ago

I don't think it's enough for taxis to just build a comparable app/infrastructure at this point. Uber goes beyond now, offering perks when you take Uber to specific destinations (eg a free burger at one place, free drink at a specific bar, etc). My UberX driver last night gave me a free bottle of water and let me drink it in the cab. Taxis could do all this, but they don't seem interested in providing that level of service.

harshal• 12 years ago

Well there are are attempts to setup that kind of infrastructure e.g. http://www.flywheel.com You are correct that the industry as a whole needs to get behind it rather than fragmenting efforts across cities/fleets etc.

_almosnow• 12 years ago

$100/year seems like a very low figure; but I guess you definitely don't take a cab everyday.

NicoJuicy• 12 years ago

That was before, with Uber he uses more taxis because the price is lower.

synaesthesisx• 12 years ago

Actually...

http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/20/about-those-uber-revenue-nu...

pbreit3• 12 years ago

Is anyone actually fooled by high revenue low margin vs low revenue high margin?

steven20123• 12 years ago

It is actually viable for Uber to recognize the entire fare as Uber's revenue, even though they get 20% cut. There are a bunch of rules for revenue recognition, and one of them is that if the customer perceives the driver as being an agent of Uber, then the recognized revenue is likely the entire fare.

If a customer has a problem with a particular driver, they contact Uber, they don't contact the driver directly. This is a key fact that makes a strong case for recognizing the entire fare as revenue.

The difference with Groupon is that the customers were still interacting with the end merchant, ie. whoever supplied the coupon, as opposed to Groupon as a whole.

One problem with recognizing the entire fare is that their margins will look a lot worse.

polarbear5• 12 years ago

By this thinking, does Airbnb then also measure the entire cost of the listing as revenue? I don't know much about accounting or finance, but this seems a little misleading to me.

smt88• 12 years ago

In my mind, Airbnb is a marketplace and Uber is a service provider. The distinction is mostly arbitrary and driven by marketing/perception, though.

steven20123• 12 years ago

Airbnb is likely more like Groupon, because when you deal pretty directly with the owner of the property, whereas when you get a Uber ride, they are known as an "Uber driver". The owners of the properties do not purport to be agents of AirBNB.

But the case could be made either way, and it's up to the auditors to determine which is more appropriate, since they have direct access to the financials, etc.

prostoalex5• 12 years ago

It's also not a fixed 20%, they seem to be willing to forego a portion of that when driver supply is low.

thrownaway2424• 12 years ago

Isn't what's being called revenue in this article comparable to what ebay recognizes as "gross merchandise volume"?

gamblor956• 12 years ago

Nope, it's contrary to GAAP for Uber to recognize the full fare as revenue so long as Uber stands by its claims that drivers are independent contractors and not employees and Uber is just facilitating payment. (By definition, an independent contractor is not an agent.)

If Uber is only entitled to X% of the fare, then under GAAP it can only recognize that X% as revenue. This is the exact same funky accounting that Groupon used. (Note that customers of Groupon would also take their problems to Groupon, not the merchant.)

steven20123• 12 years ago

No, your analysis is too superficial and rev rec is more complex than that under GAAP. It who the customer believes they are dealing with. The drivers, regardless of their employment status, are looked upon as "uber drivers" and customers contact uber for refunds or disputes, not the driver. So in this example, a strong case could be made that the entire fare is revenue.

The difference with Groupon is that the end merchant is never hidden from the customer, and the customer knows that the end merchant doesn't work for groupon. Groupon in this case is a facilitator for the transaction just like Expedia is a facilitator for airlines.

Rev rec is complex and many layers to it. An auditor goes through a series of tests to determine whether revenue is recognizable and no single test determines it so in some senses it's more an art than a science. And I don't have a full grasp of uber's arguments to their auditors but I doubt they have a strong case for recognizing the entire fare as revenue.

rokhayakebe4• 12 years ago

Side note: UBER is valued at several billions higher than the entire taxi + Limo industry in the US ($11B). Uber is probably creating more demand then there was before. If correct, entrepreneurs should take the untapped part of industries into consideration when sizing their markets.

prostoalex5• 12 years ago

How did you arrive at the valuation of the entire taxi+limo industry?

rokhayakebe4• 12 years ago

Feast, my friend

https://www.ibisworld.com/industry/home.aspx.

pbreit3• 12 years ago

Lyft: get rid of the mustaches, fist bumps and front seats. Add town cars.

People who don't like Ubers behavior: use Lyft.

shoyer• 12 years ago

Could not agree more. I'd love to use an alternative to Uber that is less scummy, but I'm turned off by Lyft's style.

GraffitiTim• 12 years ago

Most Lyfts in SF don't have mustaches anymore (or at least not displayed prominently) and about 10% do the fist bump now. I always sit in the front seat because it seems friendlier (and the drivers definitely do seem more friendly than on Uber), but I doubt they'd have any problem with you sitting in the back.

I use Lyft frequently and love it.

johnny99• 12 years ago

I use Lyft all the time and almost always just hop in the back, say hello, and... do whatever I'd be doing in an Uber or a taxi, just with a nicer driver and supporting a company I actually like.

Drivers don't seem to mind at all. If anything I get the sense they're kind of relieved not to have to put on a show.

jwilliams• 12 years ago

The magic of the silly pink mustache and the fist bump is to disarm people – disarm them from something that is otherwise weird (getting in a car with a total stranger).

SF and NYC are very mature markets - both in ride sharing and just these types of tech in general - so I can see how it's less useful and/or run it's course. However, I think this is something that might serve them well as they expand internationally.

hyh1048576• 12 years ago

Meh. Lyft is not even in my city.

pistle• 12 years ago

Wow, this reads nothing like a PR fluff piece misdirecting people away from the worst week ever for Uber...

rhizome4• 12 years ago

HEY EVERYBODY, LOOK AT ALL THIS MONEY INSTEAD

general_failure• 12 years ago

Looks pretty good. Go on and do more of whatever you are doing

Internal Uber Deck Reveals Revenue, Rides, Drivers and Fares

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