Alan Cox announces Fuzix OS

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/a2jAP7Pz1gj

by socialized • 12 years ago

322 91 12 years ago

plus.google.com

I was wondering what he was up to, he was working on Z80 support for pcc[1]. Which is maturing quite well; it can build a lot of the NetBSD kernel for example.

[1] http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/

vezzy-fnord• 12 years ago

The sardonic introduction and the fact that I initially misread his name as Alan Kay made this all the better for me, but then I came to my senses.

Alan Cox is just as interesting of a figure, though, and this is certainly a cool project. One might berate as to why we need another toy Unix, but I personally like having diverse itches scratched. Not to mention this might be an easier introduction to low-level OS hacking than having to deal with all the cognitive overhead of contributing to larger projects like Linux and the BSDs (and then a non-x86 arch is always nice).

Dewie• 12 years ago

Not to mention this might be an easier introduction to low-level OS hacking than having to deal with all the cognitive overhead of contributing to larger projects like Linux and the BSDs

Do you have an opinion on Minix, in this respect?

tracker1• 12 years ago

I'd really love to see a micro-kernel with just enough drivers to run on modern hardware, then tied to a higher level platform. I know it may seem really weird, but would love to see node running on something like this. I know there's been some work on getting something like node working with embedded systems via translation, or communication channels, it'd just be nice to see this micro application to something larger, and removing the extra overhead in said system.

Again, just a weird, warped thought here... Hell even getting golang or or rust would be cool. Something you can run some code on without a lot of baggage that you aren't using. I love where coreos is heading, and would love to see something even lighter.

brandonb• 12 years ago

For those not familiar with the Linux kernel contributors, Alan Cox wrote large parts of the networking stack, was the maintainer of the 2.2 branch, and was commonly considered the "second in command" to Linus Torvalds at one point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Cox

uberdog• 12 years ago

He released what people considered to be the stable branch of the Linux kernel (the -ac branches). Linus was moving quickly and Alan would package up the releases that everyone would use.

I just learned, from reading that wikipedia page, about the falling out he and Linus had.

rodgerd2• 12 years ago

And, interestingly enough, a senior maintainer who quit because he got sick of Linus' behaviour.

DanBC3• 12 years ago

https://lkml.org/lkml/2009/7/28/373

Alupis7• 12 years ago

not being familiar with this case -- but from an outside perspective reading the mailing list now, seems Alan introduced a patch that broke userland code -- which is the biggest No-No in kernel hacking, ie. the number 1 rule is don't break userland. Alan appeared to argue userland code was broken and not his patch, which just made Linus mad (as expected). The kernel strives to never break userland, even when userland is relying on legacy and/or broken pieces of kernel code (the idea is to code around the broken parts and provide compatibility until userland changes/fixes their problem -- ie. no kernel change should ever mass-break userland code).

pantalaimon• 12 years ago

That's not true at all, Alan Cox stated himself

I'm leaving the Linux world and Intel for a bit for family reasons. I'm aware that "family reasons" is usually management speak for "I think the boss is an asshole" but I'd like to assure everyone that while I frequently think Linus is an asshole (and therefore very good as kernel dictator) I am departing quite genuinely for family reasons and not because I've fallen out with Linus or Intel or anyone else. Far from it I've had great fun working there.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/KW3TdRYwjr9

krazemon• 12 years ago

I'm a computer science major in my senior year and I've always been interested in contributing to a big Open Source lowel level software project like this. However, I lack experience working on Operating Systems so have struggled with getting started. Would this be a good place to try getting involved?

caf• 12 years ago

This is a great project, but it is most definitely retro-computing. If you're not interested in that area, then probably not.

dysoco• 12 years ago

xv6 is probably the smallest and simplest kernel you can study: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2014/xv6.html

jackhammer• 12 years ago

http://kernelnewbies.org/

lambda• 12 years ago

Only if you have some existing interest in the hardware in question. This is a hobby retro-computing project, for a chip that was popular 30 years ago.

If you want to get into a low-level, open source project that is relevant today, I would try RISC-V (http://riscv.org/). It's an ISA and family of processor cores designed to be competitive with the niche that ARM usually fills these days, but fully open source, with a freely implemtable ISA. Now, it's pretty new and you can't buy RISC-V chips yet, but it's done by a team led by David Patterson, who is one of the fathers of the RISC architecture, and it looks pretty promising as a new open ISA and family of processor cores.

Or if you want to work on hardware that is actually available today, ARM would probably be your best bet. Maybe try porting Linux, or an RTOS like NuttX (http://www.nuttx.org/), to an ARM SOC that it doesn't yet run on.

mp99e99• 12 years ago

This is pretty exciting!

RexRollman• 12 years ago

When I first read this, I thought this was meant to be a sarcastic statement on SystemD haters, but this is for real? I would assume this is all geared to scratching some kind of retro computing itch?

digi_owl• 12 years ago

Cox seems to be on some kind of emulation and retro computing binge as of late. His G+ postings are all about Z80 and the computers that used that CPU.

femto• 12 years ago

It could also be an exercise in open computing, hailing back to an era before legal attacks and ubiquitous surveillance.

Being released in 1976, the Z80 architecture is well known and unencumbered by patents. It's also simple with fixed instruction timing, meaning it can be well tested, leaving few places for a back door to hide. The original hardware probably predates any surveillance programs (edit: and the silicon is being publicly reverse engineered by enthusiasts). There's a satisfying feeling of control, when in charge of a computer that is simple enough to understand in its entirety.

A Z80 won't be the fastest computer, but it might be useful for some tasks. Updates to the Z80, starting with FPGA cores, will be faster than the original, and might form a basis for enthusiasts to develop further. Let's face it, ARM's roots are in Z80 era processors.

codezero2• 12 years ago

Unfortunately, widespread surveillance has been around for a lot longer than the 70s though it started to become more broad in scope around then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite...

gaius2• 12 years ago

The original ARM was inspired by and designed on the 6502 (in the sense of they visited Western Digital and realized the designing a CPU was actually feasible for a small team, them emulated the design on a BBC Micro with 2nd processor) but IIRC Sophie Wilson stated they have no actual technology in common.

vidarh7• 12 years ago

If that was the goal, basing it on something like the Motorola 680x0 family would've been a better choice:

* The architecture is already 32 bit.

* There are FPGA reimplementations, including a range of boards from different people, and open source designs (the Minimig) that people have produced working machines from.

* There's been a variety of work on producing more advanced versions of the cores, employing more modern design features.

* The M68k family has MMU support.

* There are Linux ports for M68k, as well as a number of other OS's.

Looking at his Google Plus ports, which includes various ancient hardware as well as a variety of old emulators, I think the retro appeal is more relevant.

boyaka2• 12 years ago

The creators of Intel's 4004 (arguably the beginning of the microprocessor era) and the 8080 are the same men who left and founded Zilog. I would argue that the heart (brain?) of the work making these microprocessors so great is Masatoshi Shima. Of course there were other important people involved like Federico Faggin who worked closely with Shima and brought him to start Zilog, Yoshio Kojima who recruited Shima to Busicom to start working on the calculators, and Tadashi Sasaki (Sharp) with collaboration with Robert Noyce (Intel) who invested in Kojima's company (Busicom).

http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/index.php/Oral-History:Tadashi_S...

istvan__2• 12 years ago

Well there are some people out there who have valid concerns about SystemD and in general, about Linux the big and bloated, unmaintainable, insecure monolithic kernel. Is that a valid concern? I am not sure. Is that going to be fixed by Alan Cox and Fuzix? Also not sure.

I like the idea of Minix, and that would be a good direction to move on, but the big companies who are contributing the majority[1] of the current Linux work are vested too much in Linux.

There are other projects targeting the same area, different approach though.

1. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/09/google...

2. http://osv.io/

exDM69• 12 years ago

Is that going to be fixed by Alan Cox and Fuzix? Also not sure.

The beginning of the OP is obviously a joke.

This is a retro computing hobby project for 1970s era microprocessors. It's obviously not intended to be any kind of replacement for Linux or any other OS on modern computers.

DanBC3• 12 years ago

People used to learn programming by learning assembly language. Here's one example for the 68000:

First page of contents: http://imgur.com/1XCLrsQ

Example instruction description: http://imgur.com/MV6Le34

Hello world: http://imgur.com/5yKJlQ9

Off topic but if anyone is ever in Cheltenham UK (or is prepared to pay postage) I have some old books I want to get rid of. http://imgur.com/AWV9HLn

acjohnson55• 12 years ago

For sure! I really got my programming feet wet writing programs in Z80 assembly for my TI-83 graphing calculator as a middle schooler. A few years later I dabbled a bit in 68k when I got a TI-89.

pjmlp• 12 years ago

Lattice C! I haven't seen that book in ages.

rdc12• 12 years ago

Hmmm, bet international postage would be a killer

72deluxe2• 12 years ago

Those books look good. I've emailed you about a few of them.

vidarh7• 12 years ago

For anyone who wants non-paper versions of stuff like this (focused on Amiga and 8-bit Commodore computers, but there's also a bunch of more generic stuff, and 6502/68000 material): http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/

Also, the M68k programming manuals should still be downloadable from FreeScale (what used to be Motorola's semiconductor division). At least they were when I looked for the last a year ago or so. They are wonderfully clear and detailed.

GFK_of_xmaspast• 12 years ago

People used to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow.

Alupis7• 12 years ago

Well, it does not appear to be actually trying to target large-scale deployments, nor the same areas that Linux targets currently. Seems to be mostly about emulating/reliving old-school computing devices and their systems. So, from that perspective, seems to be more of a "pet project" than a serious one. It's doubtful people will dump their OS of choice for this one unless there is a specific reason.

fleeno• 12 years ago

Now I really need to finish building my Z80 machine!

VLM• 12 years ago

Sometimes I think more Z80 computers are available in 2014 than in 1994 or 2004.

I have a

http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Z80%20Board/Z80...

almost ready to bring up in my infinite spare time. And a console IO board and memory board.

sedachv2• 12 years ago

For anyone who thinks this is a joke, or that the Z80 can't do anything useful: http://www.symbos.de/

typedweb• 12 years ago

I wrote 2 games on the Gameboy and Gameboy Color assembly (both running Z80s at 4 and 8 MHz) back in the day and they were great to program on. Loved the simplicity of the machine.

progman2• 12 years ago

The old processors are commonly underestimated. I remember the times of the first versions of Turbo Pascal on CP/M and 8086. It had a very basic user interface (just key strokes) but the language was very convenient, and compilation was incredibly fast, almost instant.

I also had an Atari ST with 8MHz 68000 (no math copro) with Tempus Editor (ASCII) and Tempus Word (word procesor). Both were written in assembler, also incredibly fast -- faster than MS Word on a PC today. Other people used their Atari ST to write their disseration with Signum, and others published professional newspapers with it.

What does a PC really need? A convenient assembler, a few compilers, a screen editor (vi), a simple database, a word processor (TeX), simple TCP/IP and other very basic things. Just the things which Alan focuses on. Unix on a Z80 or on enhanced FPGA cores sounds really interesting.

I am a happy Linux user for decades but I am seriously concerned about the future of Linux. On one hand Linux will probably soon be kept out from hard locked UEFI/Secure Boot systems, on the other hand modern PCs cannot be trusted anymore in case of security anyway. Also many Linux distros follow the questionable systemd way which makes me wonder if Linux will soon be bloated up like Windows. The Linux kernel runs wonderful so far but it already has several million lines of code, and systemd will add a significant level of complexity.

These things are reasons why I consider Alan's approach of "back to the roots" the right way and very promising. Not only the software is open source but also the requirements for the hardware are so low that many people could build their own System V Unix Z80 systems at home. Cheap microcontrollers like the Parallax Propeller could be added to provide VGA output and parallel I/O.

sedachv2• 12 years ago

What does a PC really need?

I'd like a large address space and some way to do read and write barriers (for real-time GC).

These things are reasons why I consider Alan's approach of "back to the roots" the right way and very promising.

What do you think about OpenBSD? The only reason I switched from OpenBSD to Lubuntu on my personal laptop is because of Adobe Flash.

danellis• 12 years ago

40k? Why is everything so bloated these days? The last 6502 machine I had only had 32k in total.

niels_olson• 12 years ago

Maybe he hasn't optimized yet?

101914• 12 years ago

Yes to all your questions, Mr. Cox.

Godspeed.

JoshTriplett• 12 years ago

I half expected him to throw in something like "Just a hobby, won't be anything big and professional like Linux."

davb• 12 years ago

For those not familiar, this is a reference to Linus' quote when announcing commencement of work on Linux:

just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!msg/comp.os.minix/dl...

(Sorry for the Google Groups link...)

phazmatis• 12 years ago

Jokes on you, Lennart just announced 8-bit systemd.

codezero2• 12 years ago

direct link to the Github project, though the parent post on G+ does have good Q&A :)

https://github.com/EtchedPixels/FUZIX

agumonkey2• 12 years ago

Any relation to Russ Cox (unixv6, plan9, golang) ?

agumonkey2• 12 years ago

Come on, this wasn't trolling .. (also, I googled before asking)

Yuioup• 12 years ago

Wow a new OS for my Amstrad CPC. If only I knew how to transfer data unto it.

Zardoz84• 12 years ago

Floppy (you can use a PC floppy drive), or grab a board to add SD or IDE to your CPC

sauere• 12 years ago

Semi-OT: what is it with all the old-school Linux hackers and their obsession with Google+?

vidarh7• 12 years ago

Network effects.

srean• 12 years ago

   "The time has come," the Walrus said,
   "To talk of many things:
    Of QR codes and profile pics
    Of Cox'es and their hackings"

http://hackaday.com/2012/04/13/qart-codes-the-better-way-to-...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DGzr5UFEIXM/AAAAAAAAAAI/A...

samsaga2• 12 years ago

The main problem with Z80 it's the lack of a good C compiler. SDCC is not enough.

jbb555• 12 years ago

I read the first line and I thought it was going to be a proper linux distro without all that new systemd junk. But then I saw it was for z80. Very disapointed :(

tluyben2• 12 years ago

I have many Z80 machines in my 'museum'; happy to see people making software for them still. I am working on applications for Symbos[1] which is really a show of force on these rather slow machines[2].

[1] http://symbos.org [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-oBNh0UkQc

sergiolp• 12 years ago

Nice, just a few weeks ago I finished my port of socz80 to DE0-nano (https://github.com/slp/socz80-de0_nano).

Apparently, the original socz80 is already supported on Fuzix, so it should run here too. More retro-fun!

dorfsmay• 12 years ago

I wonder how difficult, or even possible (no security architecture at the processor level) it would be to port NetBSD to the z80.

cturner2• 12 years ago

Maybe from an old BSD but not from NetBSD.

There's a fairly hard cut-off between the design of early OSs with no memory protection (e.g. legacy Mac OS, W95, Amiga, DOS, Locomotive basic), and operating systems which ration memory out to processes (NT, BeOS, Linux, BSD, Solaris). The later group depends on hardware features that the z80 didn't have.

Version 7 unix is in the first camp. Whereas BSD had paged virtual memory well before the IP became open. Also, I think NetBSD requires at least a 32-bit word size.

There was a unix-like in the z80 era called Coherent. On the wikipedia page it says, "There was no support for virtual memory or demand paging." I remember it being advertised in the magazines but never got to play with it, would be interested to hear stories.

[multiple edits, had fun thinking about this]

justincormack4• 12 years ago

Retrobsd is a good starting point.

known• 12 years ago

Unlike Linus, Alan has MBA.

Alan Cox announces Fuzix OS

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