Ask HN: Is life/success a game of who can handle burnout the longest/best?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8202941

by perpetualBurnt • 12 years ago

22 29 12 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I wonder how many of you are in the same boat as me: I can't do what I want in life because I can't save enough money due to cost of living/student loans/etc.

So, I'm essentially stuck in a field that I've grown tired of. Yet, the best way forward is to save money so I can perhaps buy a year of my own life to do what I want (in the most modest of senses: no traveling, just me waking up in the morning and not being told what to do).

I just wonder if the people who are successful got that way because they are really good at sucking it up and pushing through years of hating life, or, if the thing that made them successful was an obvious next step in their life, and they didn't have to put up with as much mental/emotional stress as I am. Frankly, I don't see how to make big success happen for myself, and continually being locked in a burnout state makes me think its even less likely.

AnEro2• 12 years ago

A large amount of it is managing the delay of gratification; I believe that is what you mean here. It is a discussion in psychology, and you can find a bunch of research on it for instance the marshmallow test.

I would challenge you to do some meditation- like just stopping and relaxing and focus on just your breath, once a thought pops into your head just come back to the focus on your breath. Try it for 2 weeks 5-10 minutes a day record your results.

perpetualBurnt6• 12 years ago

Thanks for your reply! Yes, the delay of gratification thing is what I've been practicing. Thinking "It will get better" has been keeping me going. However, after repeating that for a couple years one starts thinking "Well, when is it going to get better?"

Meditation seems like flossing to me: something that everyone says you should do more of, but, hardly anyone does it. It seems like a good idea that I will try again. I wonder: do you practice regularly, and, does it work for you?

AnEro2• 12 years ago

I am just getting into it, so I am very much still learning but I'd like to explain it as like a loop of thought. Where you focus on your breathing how your body is moving with the breathing then your mind will start to wander. In this wandering you add steps and make the loop larger and larger, so the goal is to catch yourself as you find you are wandering whether its right away or if its 20 seconds later. By catching yourself you shorten the loop, the over all goal is to have to loop as shot as possible.

I do it to help combat my depression and ADHD

osconfused2• 12 years ago

I am just starting to meditate more regularly. I am only at about 10-20 minutes before I get bored of it. I think it helps my concentration. It was difficult to find time at first for me to think about nothing. It seemed counter intuitive.

angersock• 12 years ago

What field are you in, and how stuck are you?

perpetualBurnt6• 12 years ago

I'm a software engineer. I can move to a different company, and I have done this in the past, but I don't think that I'll be content. I can't remember the last time I got excited about something, or, was so interested in something that it kept me up late at night (and not just work: anything). I'm assuming that my general lack of enjoyment of everything stems from burnout.

I've lost a lot of friends during the course of this, and when I think back to the time I've lost from only half-heartedly being involved in my code, I get frustrated.

PeterWhittaker• 12 years ago

Do you have hobbies? Do you exercise?

If not, especially the latter, start. I'm not saying you are going to enjoy it. In fact, you might hate it. But do it anyway. Find an intense exercise that gets you sweaty and gets your heart rate up a little, without requiring a lot of investment and without putting you at risk.

Be disciplined about, even if you hate doing it at first. I suggest making it part of your morning routine.

What do I think the end result will be? Well, not that you will enjoy either your work or the exercise, in fact, you may have no emotional involvement in either. But I expect that neither will bother you as much and that eventually you will smile at a bird or sunset or an attractive person, then you will sign up for a course that you've always been curious about.

If you are stressed, there are two basic ways of dealing: Reducing the stress Vs increasing your tolerance for stress. Exercise intensely regularly, as part of a routine set of habits from which you rarely deviate, and you may increase your tolerance, and with any luck will eventually getting to the point where you give a job a glowing "meh".

It becomes the thing you do to afford the things you want, you neither like it nor dislike it, and eventually you find something else, about which you are excited.

(I recommend squats. They are easy to do, intense, require no equipment, and you can self-regulate easily. Start with one, every 30 minutes while you get ready in the morning, neither too deep nor too shallow. Aim for adequacy, not perfection. Then make it two. Then three. Slowly get to where you are doing more. Then eventually add more. Today was a no-exercise day for me, so I did 50, as fast as I could. Sweaty and out of breath and ready for anything. (I started with 5-10 a few months ago, slow and steady.))

weddpros3• 12 years ago

Of the many decisions I've made in my life, I don't regret the foolish ones. I only regret the decisions others made for me.

perpetualBurnt6• 12 years ago

I don't regret foolish decisions I made before I knew it was foolish - I think thats being too hard on one's self. However, I would have a tough time knowingly making a foolish decision. Which category do your foolish decisions fall in to?

I've noticed I feel better when I create opportunity for myself. For example, I'd probably feel very bad if I spent money on short-term enjoyment because that money would be gone forever. However, if I can consistently put in hours towards a project, I can reflect on those hours with pride.

colanderman• 12 years ago

I'd probably feel very bad if I spent money on short-term enjoyment because that money would be gone forever

You can't buy happiness, but you can buy happy memories, and those memories can last forever.

Trips, classes, concerts… all sincere ways to turn money into memories.

(BTW, I'm in much the same boat as you. Already changed jobs once looking to find new meaning. Hasn't worked yet.)

weddpros3• 12 years ago

"Which category do your foolish decisions fall in to?"

Moving abroad for my first job.

Quitting my extremely well paying engineer job to become a pro photographer ("how can you quit???"). I earned approximately 8 times less, for 8 years.

Asking the amazing woman out... We're happy together, it was 3.5 years ago.

Returning to a better paying job, in spite of some success and reputation as photographer ("how can you quit???"). It was in february.

Deciding to move abroad again... in october this year if all goes as planned, I'll start a digital nomad life, working remotely for a startup.

Also I had a cerebral infarct when I was 32. It was 10 years ago. Please don't wait for such an event before you realize it's time to take your life where you want it.

One thing that might help you: recently, I heard a Ted talk about intelligence. In a word: the clever choice is often the one which will maximize the choices you have further down the road.

When you feel like you're stuck, almost any move will do. Standing still will not.

Mz• 12 years ago

I just wonder if the people who are successful got that way because they are really good at sucking it up and pushing through years of hating life

Well, to some extent, the answer will be different for everyone, but I think most successful people are decently good at figuring out how to get some of their own needs met regardless of what life circumstances swirl chaotically around them. Money per se does not take care of anything. (Example: If you have an incurable deadly disease and are ridiculously wealthy, your money can't buy your way out of it because there is no "off the shelf" solution already available for purchase.)

Einstein said that you can't solve a problem from the same mental space that created it (or something along those lines). But, other than suggesting that instead of looking for different answers to the same question, you need to ask different questions entirely, I don't really know how to help you. There isn't enough detail here for me even begin speculating as to why you are stuck and what you might do to get unstuck.

Best of luck.

benblu• 12 years ago

"I can't do what I want in life" -- What do you want to do?

perpetualBurnt6• 12 years ago

I want to write a book, and work on 3 medium to large scale software projects (not all at once, of course). 'A couple hours in the evenings' hasn't proven enough time to focus on this. In fact, getting up at 3 AM and working on these before work has also not proven to be sustainable.

orasis• 12 years ago

High cortisol levels make you stupid. Its not about who can handle burnout the longest, its about creating a healthy life rhythm that is sustainable and fueled by passion, not obligation.

One of the big things people overlook is getting enough sleep. They think they need to sleep less to get more done, but this only works in the short term. I sleep at least 9 hours a night and I try to turn off the screens at least an hour before I go to sleep. This has made a huge difference in my life.

osconfused2• 12 years ago

Great advice. I also noticed a positive impact of the quality of my work when I started following similar behavior. I started by forcing myself to rise with the sun, instead of trying to stay up all night.

josephschmoe• 12 years ago

Get a side-project with someone else who is working on that project full time. This will give you better skills/connections outside of corporate, even if it doesn't pay off immediately.

That's what I'm doing. The first two gave me big fat goose eggs (my first project I was alone at first), but #3 is looking like it could very do well for me and #4 is a guaranteed paycheck that will likely be double my hourly rate.

The problem with this: 1. 50-60 hour weeks every week. 2. You need to be in a very good position at work. No sudden rush of 60 hour weeks from work. 3. You will burn out after three months of this. You can do two of these a year max.

Try to find a side-project related to what you want to do in life. Focusing on what you don't want to do is a sure road to failure - but if you find things you do want to do, you could even use this as a way to transition into those things. Maybe you could work on those things 20 hours a week and spend the rest doing...whatever it is you do want out of life.

Just my 2 cents. Not everyone can handle 60 hour weeks over and over again. It is not a lifestyle I would recommend and I hate that it is a necessity in this world without taking on tremendous risk.

perpetualBurnt6• 12 years ago

We are of the same mind. I do have a side project, and it even earns me money.

Your comment: "It is not a lifestyle I would recommend and I hate that it is a necessity in this world without taking on tremendous risk" basically sums up my thoughts... My original question was asking if life has to be like this. I don't know anyone directly who grew up rich or went to an elite school (I did neither), and I just sort of wonder if that segment of society doesn't have to struggle as much.

jasonkester• 12 years ago

I've always viewed adult life as maximizing the time/money problem. Or rather, solving the problem where it's relatively easy to get either free time or money at any point, but relatively hard to get both at the same time.

As developers, we have the advantage of being able to attack it from the Money side. You can spend your early career ramping up your bill rate so that you don't have to work 52 week years just to pay the bills. And you can also build product stuff that keeps paying dividends long after the heavy work of building it is done.

Combine those two things during the "burnout" phase you mention, and it shouldn't take too long to get out in front of the problem if you work it right.

Took me until about age 30 before I could start taking entire years off, but I bet a kid fresh out of school could do it a lot faster these days. There's really never been a better time to be in Tech.

csmdev2• 12 years ago

Yes, success comes to those who sacrifice themselves the most. And no, not just any sacrifice. You have to work for yourself instead of working for others. And it's usually excruciating.

Establish a huge goal that would satisfy you. Most choose world domination. But it can be a million bucks for now. And start working towards it. Day by day, month by month, year by year. During the day you make money from a job, during evenings and weekends you work towards your goal.

You constantly borrow happiness from the present and pile it up in the future. And burnout is always at the door and you constantly have to fight against it. Exercise, hobbies, outdoor activities etc. They are all weapons for a fight. Not solutions to health problems.

Start working for yourself today. On a startup, freelancing, book, side project or anything of value owned by you. And in a couple of years you will see if it works or not. If it doesn't, rinse and repeat, using the new things you learned. And if you're lucky, after doing this a couple of times you might obtain financial independence. After that it's either exponential growth or you fall back to your current state.

The universe likes balance. So success is always paid with suffering, one way or another. This is why children born into wealth usually end up badly. So if you were born poor like pretty much everyone else, you need to suffer if you want success. It's just how life works.

ramblerman• 12 years ago

"The universe likes balance. So success is always paid with suffering, one way or another. This is why children born into wealth usually end up badly."

I'm suprised to read this kind of crap on HN. The universe has no tab on you or your existence.

csmdev2• 12 years ago

Who said it does?

silverlake• 12 years ago

IME, successful people are smart enough, take career risks, and are lucky.

rthomas6• 12 years ago

I am stealing from William B. Irvine's book here... There are 3 categories of things:

1. Those over which we have control.

2. Those over which we have no control.

3. Those over which we have partial but not complete control.

It is foolish and detrimental to spend any effort thinking or worrying about things over which we have no control. These things include:

* The past

* The present

First, learn to accept the past, and internalize that it is fixed and not able to be altered. Therefore it is not worth fretting over. Then embrace the present-- love every moment as it happens to you. You might as well, because once it's here you can't change it. This is my definition of mindfulness. In practice, this will look like you noticing what's around you and feeling grateful for all of it. Your breath, your fingers, the daylight, that you have food to eat... look at this machine that lets you connect to anywhere in the world in an instant! (you get the idea). There are many techniques to aid in this, among which is mindfulness meditation. Another is called "negative visualization", in which you imagine life without something, and ideally accept the hypothetical situation as still liveable, in order to better appreciate whatever amazing luxury you happen to have. A common example is imagining yourself without vision.

The point of all of this is so that you no longer need to commit any of your precious energy just trying to make yourself happy with your life in the present. All of that energy expenditure is a distraction (and our culture is geared top to bottom toward trying to make you spend your time, money, and energy this way!). To be blunt, needing something specific to be content is a personal weakness. Once you really, truly embrace your present circumstances, you can focus all your energy on what you do have control over, which is actually quite a lot.

You have control over:

* Your goals and plans

* Your actions

* Your reactions to circumstances and other people

So what I think you're missing is that people who are successful "suck it up" but they don't push through years of hating life, because they don't hate their life. They love their life, and then proceed to make it even better. To put more a Buddhist spin, there are 2 ways to feel content: One is to satisfy every desire you ever have. This will never happen, because no matter what you get, it will never be enough. The other way is to eliminate the desire itself... and then achieve some of those things anyway, at which point they're pure gravy. You could think of it as a charity in which you're giving to a stranger: your future self.

Tl;dr: Right now you hate life unless you achieve X, Y and Z, at which point you'll feel satisfied (for a while). Instead, teach yourself to feel satisfied right now, and then throw yourself into whatever it is that you feel passionate about, as you are able.

Sindrome• 12 years ago

Interesting how often life and success are grouped together as if the two are inseparable.

Ask HN: Is life/success a game of who can handle burnout the longest/best?

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