2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-drive-unit-iv-the-milling.html

by ethana • 12 years ago

141 119 12 years ago

rgbrenner2• 12 years ago

That's great that the drive unit was covered under warranty.. that was Edmunds 4th drive unit in 30,000 miles. Of course, once it hits 50k miles, the warranty period is over, and it's $15000 to replace it.

MotorTrend reported the same problem.. they've already had it replaced twice.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2312325-tesla-may-have-a-hug...

baddox• 12 years ago

Wow. I've never had a vehicle worth more than $15,000. That's one expensive part.

grecy4• 12 years ago

Your vehicles were very likely worth more than $15,000 when new. You've just never had a new vehicle.

Also, engine replacements on new gasoline vehicles run around $10k.

jusben1369• 12 years ago

What's interesting here too is that these costs can come back to haunt you on the leasing side. Tesla's leasing programs "guess" at what the value of the car will be when the lease ends. Should this issue turn out to be true and therefore drive down resale value they'll be buying/getting many of these cars back at prices they can't get when they turn around and resell them. Assuming of course it turns out to be any sort of real issue.

jfb2• 12 years ago

The most interesting thing about this to me is how similar it is to other long-term road test articles -- IOW, how well Tesla has built a car that conforms to people's conceptions about how cars should operate. That's extraordinarily impressive; to me, it's more impressive than the (admittedly impressive) technology in the cars themselves.

I'm not a fan of the Musk/Tony Stark schtick, or of SpaceX, or the hagiographic treatment he receives from the technical press, but I am a fan of Tesla as a carmaker.

bagels• 12 years ago

Most long term tests of 1 year/30,000 miles have multiple drivetrain failures?

sliverstorm7• 12 years ago

I think your parent is saying "It is a victory that Edmunds is conducting a road test just like with any other car".

superJoy• 12 years ago

One car isn't enough to form a true conclusion, but what about 76? [1] This poll is biased in the sense that "0" isn't an option; still, it's an alarming amount of failed drive units. If this is a real problem, it won't scale---they can't keep replacing these things under warranty.

[1] http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Un...

robterrell• 12 years ago

Don't forget about the Toyota RAV4 EV, which uses the same Tesla drive unit. There are lots of reports of similar problems on the RAV4 EV forums.

Tesla is a public company, so this cost must make its way into an annual report, right?

puzzlingcaptcha• 12 years ago

There is also a sampling bias, people who have experienced problems with the car are more likely to hang around in online forums trying to share their experience.

jarek• 12 years ago

So the rate the problem is being reported at should be comparable to other premium cars? How does it compare with BMW, an enthusiast brand with high online engagement, many unofficial forums and so on? Audi?

awalton• 12 years ago

1: The people who are most likely to bitch about it are also the people that congregate online.

2: Troll factor - people who just want to see the company fail.

3: Tesla's own professional paranoia. It's cheaper and easier to replace a faulty unit now to inspect it and determine how to make a future unit more resilient than it is to deal with bad press in the future.

Then you have some people who baby their cars, and then you have the people who drive cars professionally who are looking for ways they can break things. 76 is not a signal when the company is making 700 cars a week, it's well below the noise threshold.

So there's enough points to counter. The simple truth is, anyone who's trying to come to a conclusion on this car this early is stupid. The fact that this test was called "Long-Term" should tell you something about the industry.

Systemic• 12 years ago

The survey isn't just "biased" in that 0 isn't an option, it represents a fundamentally different question. The results of this survey can be phrased as: "Out of 76 cars which had their drive units replaced, how many drive units did they have replaced?"

From this poll you can't even say you have a sample size of 76 cars as you only have a sample of 76 cars whose drive units have broken.

A different survey on the same website includes zero [1], and is more appropriate to answering the question of "How likely is it that a Model S will have its drive unit replaced?"

[1] http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/32608-Drive-Un...

timdorr• 12 years ago

I do believe these results are an outlier.

I've had my Model S since December 2012 (one of the first production models in the state of Georgia) and have had no major issues with it. I've only ever had proactive maintenance (12v battery system replacement, coolant pump upgrade, and improved sealant on the sunroof), all of which I haven't paid a dime for. They even provided loaner vehicles while they worked on it. I've driven it up and down the East Coast and a 260 mile straight shot from Atlanta to Savannah.

I've heard similar stories from most other owners. It is a tremendously easy car to own, as you barely have to do any work on it. Yes, cases like this will happen. But no different from any other car out there.

grecy4• 12 years ago

Out of curiosity, why does it have a 12v battery (& system) ? I always assumed it didn't have one, and that accessories would be powered off the "big" battery.

yazaddaruvala• 12 years ago

Probably 2 reasons,

- Voltage / Current differences.

- Abstraction, for safety, testing and debugging purposes.

toomuchtodo3• 12 years ago

Better to step down to 12v at one high-efficiency DC-DC converter than try to build accessories that can handle hundreds of volts.

anurag• 12 years ago

Most of the car's internal electronics (lights, airbags, ignition, touchscreen, instrument cluster etc.) are based on traditional components that require a 12V connection. The 12V battery in the Model S also powers the high voltage contacts that transmit power from the main battery to the motor.

darkhorn• 12 years ago

Chemical limit of the materials. If you go out to buy battery bigger than 12v, for example 24v, then you will see that it is actually made of 2 12v or may be even 16 1.5v, depends on what material they use to make a battery. I have asked your question about Tesla and low voltage batteries to my friend who was studying as Physics Teaching, he explained me these things.

ddeck3• 12 years ago

This is what annoys me about my Prius.

It has a large, high voltage battery that could easily be stepped down (and in fact is, since it charges the 12V battery), and yet a separate 12V battery is required to power the electronics to start the car.

Since the 12V battery is only used to power the electronics (the high volatage battery powers the starter motor), it is very small and consequently, drains quickly (a few weeks) if the car is not in use. I don't drive much and regularly find it dead when I try to drive somewhere.

The upside of it only being required to power the electronics is that I can (and regularly do) jump start it with a NiMH remote control car battery.

I understand that if the high voltage battery goes flat in a Prius, you're somewhat screwed, which is perhaps why they don't allow it to power the electronics for starting, but it's still a pain.

Disclaimer: this is an older Prius, newer models may be different

NickM• 12 years ago

I agree. Consumer Reports did a survey of Model S owners and found that it was reliable enough to warrant a strong recommendation, and that "no owner in our survey has reported problems with the electric drivetrain". http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/10/tesla-model-...

Edmunds also seems to have had a long history of writing negative Tesla articles, oftentimes ignoring any positive aspects of the car in favor of oddly nitpicky complaints. See http://cleantechnica.com/2014/03/22/hatin-tesla-model-s-seem... Some have speculated that they might have a hidden agenda when it comes to Tesla, though obviously that's very difficult to prove one way or the other...but it certainly seems odd that nobody in the Consumer Reports survey experienced a single drivetrain failure while Edmunds went through three in a row.

Shivetya• 12 years ago

Regardless of your view of their writing, the warranty issues are not debatable, nor are Motor Trends. There was a highly publicized buy back recently as well. Searching it is not hard to find the hard luck stories. As for the magazines results, they use their vehicles a lot more than every day people and tend to stress them more too

Let alone the fact that many early adopters, if not the majority, are far less likely to complain about issues because they don't want to question or be questioned about their choice.

I am still waiting for the their 35k/40k/etc car. It will be very interesting to see their quality control issues with a near mass production car. Right now they are still down in the uber luxury levels of production and costs.

rgbrenner2• 12 years ago

Consumer Reports downgraded the 2013 Model S' reliability score to "Below Average" because of owners reporting more problems.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/07/20/will-a-majo...

hnnewguy• 12 years ago

I agree. Consumer Reports did a survey of Model S owners and found that it was reliable enough to warrant a strong recommendation, and that "no owner in our survey has reported problems with the electric drivetrain"

Consumer reports has a reliability rating of "average" on the Model S, and according to the Tesla forums themselves, the Model S was on the list of "Used Cars to Avoid".

CR requires a subscription, but this stuff is all over the internet:

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2014/04/tesla-model-s-rel...

It's a great car, I'm sure, but hyped to no end.

dragontamer2• 12 years ago

I just checked my Consumer Reports account. Tesla S is rated average reliability. Specifically, the 2012 model had high reliability, while the 2013 model had below-average reliability.

ck22• 12 years ago

That car has been driven 30,000 miles in ONE year.

How would a gas car do with that kind of non-stop driving?

cheald• 12 years ago

Ask anyone that runs a rental car fleet.

toomuchtodo3• 12 years ago

Rental car fleets usually dump their cars between 30K-40K miles, depending on the brand. Its cheaper to just buy new cars and sell the used ones.

Spooky232• 12 years ago

Fine. My dad used to put 150k miles on a mid 90s Ford Escort annually. The car was taken out by a deer at 480k and totaled.

Hytosys• 12 years ago

Something tells me that the deer's representative would object that it was actually the deer who got taken out by a car.

codezero3• 12 years ago

That almost sounds impossible. Do you mind me asking what he did, driving for so many hours a day? At 150k a year, that amounts to over 410 miles a day, which is 6-10 hours of driving at normal speeds, quite a feat!

ck22• 12 years ago

That is 400 miles a day and 7 hours of driving @ 60mph.

It is actually more miles than you can get on one tank of gas in an Escort.

I owned one, decent car but it needs a lot of maintenance.

schwap• 12 years ago

Not that badly, really:

8x oil change

4x inspect brakes & rotate tires (tesla would need this, too)

2x inspect axle boots and axle shaft joints, inspect clutch operation, inspect steering and suspension (tesla, too)

and 1x (right at 30k):

inspect drive belts

inspect timing belt

replace automatic transmission fluid

replace brake fluid (tesla, too)

replace engine air filter

replace engine coolant (tesla, although different)

replace front/rear diff fluid

replace manual transmission fluid

gambiting4• 12 years ago

> 8x oil change

what? Are you changing your oil every 3.5k miles?

akgerber• 12 years ago

Taxis do it a lot. There are plenty of Prius taxis out there, and they seem to do pretty well too.

sliverstorm7• 12 years ago

Ask just about anybody with a 1-hour (freeway) commute. For example, anybody who lives in SF and commutes by car to Cupertino.

johnward• 12 years ago

Hours don't really matter though. I have a 2 hour commute one way but it's only about 55 miles. That's about 38k miles commuting to work if I drive every day, which I don't. Getting to 150k in a year could be a challenge.

edit: I thought you were replying to the guy that said he did 150k per year. Tons of people do 30k per year with basic maintenance.

sz4kerto• 12 years ago

I have a Citroen (the brand does not have too good reputation for reliability), and obviously it's anecdotal, but in 30k miles (in 1.5 years) nothing happened (except oil/filter changes). I expect that to continue for the next 100k miles.

mikeash6• 12 years ago

As long as the actual driving is normal, it shouldn't matter. Cars don't need rest and time isn't kind to them. Continuous driving is the ideal state for the longevity (in terms of miles) of a car. 30,000 miles in one year should be better, not worse, than 30,000 miles spaced out over 2-3 years as would be more typical.

A modern, reliable car is virtually good as new at 30,000 miles with routine maintenance. Doing it all in one year wouldn't change that.

lttlrck2• 12 years ago

30,000 miles a year is really not that much if you are a taxi driver or traveling salesperson/rep. A friend put 180,000km on MB C240 in two years. No issues.

cc439• 12 years ago

Oof, I thought resale value on Jaguars was bad ($70k to $15k in 5 years) but these are basically write-offs after the warranty expires.

It's a grand experiment but I don't think the market for $70k assets that lose 90% of their value in 5 years is going to be too hot.

bradleybuda• 12 years ago

Cars aren't really 'assets'. They are consumer goods that may or may not have some resale value, but it's a mistake to think of them as a store of value, or (outside of rare cases) as something that might appreciate in value.

sliverstorm7• 12 years ago

Cars are assets. Depreciating assets, yes. But assets. They are an economic good that produces value (travel).

Remember that an asset is not the same thing as a store of value. A store of value can be an asset, of course.

DenisM• 12 years ago

You're making up the numbers, and then making up far-fetched conclusions about there being no market, which contradict the reality of the market - if I remember it right, Model S outsold every single luxury sedan in its price bracket.

sliverstorm7• 12 years ago

Your parent is speculating about future sales backlash, if service life proves to be short or repairs too expensive. Initial sales isn't counter-proof to that.

crdb2• 12 years ago

Actually, Singapore has proven it can be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement

The right to own a car for only 10 years has been bid up to about that. You can find cars with COE with less than 5 years remaining, that are still worth multiples of their non-Singaporean value. People will get into debt to drive a car.

sliverstorm7• 12 years ago

Isn't that kind of a whole different kettle of fish?

ddeck3• 12 years ago

I'm not sure what comparison you're trying to draw.

Singapore has shown that restricting the supply of vehicles will drive the price higher. Yes, owning a vehicle is extremely expensive in Singapore and many in that economy are willing to pay the price (by definition since it's an auction based system).

I believe your parent was pointing out that the depreciation of the Tesla appears to compare very poorly with alternative vehicles, and potential buyers are unlikely to choose such an expensive option when there are far cheaper alternatives available. Singaporeans have no alternative.

jonknee4• 12 years ago

They actually seem to be doing great in the aftermarket. There's a wait list to purchase new, which is surely helping.

Cthulhu_• 12 years ago

Well at the moment, yes, but we'll have to wait and see until the Model S and co are > 5 years old, or even >8 years old and the warranty on the battery expires, or other age-related issues crop up. I'm thinking it'll be a very expensive used car to keep on the road, which will limit it to collectors or rich people and/or severely impact the resale value.

tdiggity• 12 years ago

FWIW - I've done 18,000 miles in 1.5 years - 0 reliability issues, so far.

zaroth• 12 years ago

First, it sounds like Tesla service is pretty great. All that work at $0 cost, done in 1.5 days, is pretty incredible. Good maintenance should bring a positive ROI.

Yes, there's a downside, which is out-of-warranty cost, and ultimately resale value. It's both a science experience we are funding here, and a public company. I would love to have seen some hard numbers from the stated financials about warranty costs, and expected future warranty costs.

I think it's a good question to ask -- is the longer term service cost of the car understood? Maybe we're just starting to get to that point, but I'm not sure the data is really out there. I do expect of any company that Tesla would be the best at predicting their long-term performance and costs.

It's one thing if the car isn't perfect, it's another if it becomes a maintenance nightmare. That could happen only outside of warranty, and not even directly impact their expenses, but it ultimately does impact sales. I would expect if there's an issue that Musk has discussed it at length already. This clearly isn't new.

I don't like the scaremongering about the cost of this repair. Did they even ask Tesla how much the repair would cost, and they refused to answer? It certainly doesn't say that they even asked the cost. I doubt it would matter, but I'm sure there's a law that they have to disclose the retail cost of the repair.

I know car reviews rarely quote the CEO, but for this specific issue of drive train, I think it's worth getting a quote from the company in the article.

mikeash6• 12 years ago

Since the car was under warranty, why is $0 cost so great? Isn't that completely standard for warranty work?

gambiting4• 12 years ago

>We decided to pass on the annual service

It's interesting - I bought a brand new Nissan Qashqai recently, and I HAVE to do an annual inspection to keep the warranty, regardless of the condition of the car. Basically after a year they will look at it, say "yep, it still works" and charge me $300 to stamp my warranty booklet.

marvin• 12 years ago

I'm guessing these quality issues are caused by the massive amount of fatigue and overtime at both the Tesla Design Studio and the Fremont factory. Tesla employees work 6 days a week, and we're not talking 7-hour days here. So they are able to polish the product really well, but the fatigue shows up in the tiny details that are rushed, leading to long-term quality control issues.

Or it could be just growing pains, I suppose. But I've always been critical of Tesla's (and others') reckless attitude towards excessively long hours.

noonespecial2• 12 years ago

I'm going to go ahead and guess here that Tesla is going to have to give up on launching the 4,785 pound Model S to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds. There might not be a possible gearbox that can do that for the life of the car and fit the cost/size constraints of a sedan.

Another case of "just because its possible doesn't mean you should". It will be fixed with 3 lines of code (to create a gear friendly torque curve) and a whole lot of PR to explain it.

Tloewald• 12 years ago

Gearbox?

noonespecial2• 12 years ago

Teslas have a single speed gearbox that reduces the electric motor down 9.7-something to 1. This is likely the source of the "milling" noise. These gears degrade rapidly at the insane torque levels of an electric motor starting full blast from stop. Something they would never face from their ICE brethren.

josefresco6• 12 years ago

"We decided to pass on the annual service. The alignment had already been performed when we installed the new tires. System monitoring? We were just there in May when Tesla took care of a laundry list of items. Plus, they were already installing the firmware upgrade as part of the "Courtesy Inspection." Hardware upgrade? Any critical part should be (and was) covered under warranty. More on that later. So the only thing we were missing out on was the AC filters and the wiper blades, not worth $600."

I love how they (and most) rationalize skipping this service (aka maintenance is for suckers). The more time a trained mechanic spends under, in, on and thinking about your car the better. Especially when it's a techno-feast such as the Model S.

josefresco6• 12 years ago

Overall the Tesla seems like a Range Rover (owned one, wife worked at dealership). Amazing technical features, but with all that bleeding edge technology comes high maintenance needs. Don't get me wrong, Range Rovers are amazing vehicles to own, but you have to accept that you'll be using that loner-Rover a handful of times each year.

outworlder• 12 years ago

When you skip annual maintenance of your car, you don't have much to complain about when it breaks.

That is why it should be inspected, to catch problems before they become serious.

cpwright• 12 years ago

This kind of stuff is actually what is less likely to make me purchase a Tesla. If it becomes common for these kinds of failures, it isn't a risk that I want to have.

What is magic about annual maintenance? In my gasoline car, I change the oil around every 7500 miles (when the car tells me) and rotate the tires at the same time. Total cost about $50 a year. Brakes when they need it for around $200, and when I need it four tires for a little under $1000. Throw in a yearly emissions and safety inspection for $37.

Most gasoline cars will have a 5/60, or 10/100 powertrain warranty. But even outside of warranty, I know I am not going to have to pay $15,000 to fix it. I'm also not stuck going to the manufacturer, price shopping is possible and I'm sure would save money over a dealership.

bengoodger• 12 years ago

The lemon law is not quite as cut and dried as the author of this article states. If you're not happy with your car you should not make this judgment for yourself. Consult an attorney.

You can be outside the 18k miles but if the problems began inside the first 18k miles, you qualify. I have personally had a car bought back a couple of months ago. After rejecting the manufacturers' initial offer of monetary compensation and sending a letter to the company on attorney letterhead, the mfr immediately folded and offered to buy it back for the full amount required by the CA lemon law.

bicknergseng• 12 years ago

So it seems to me like there isn't enough raw data about the auto industry available to consumers. What are the odds of having a lemon Model S like Edmunds' vs the odds of having a GM that drives itself into a tree, for example? I'd obviously rather have to replace parts than have my accelerator go nuts, but is there any real source of data outside of anecdotal evidence via Consumer Reports or relative outliers from subpoenas in the case of Toyota and GM?

2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test

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