Show HN: Keep, an app that helps you love how you spend every dollar

http://m.trykeep.com

by tomrohlf • 12 years ago

79 92 12 years ago

m.trykeep.com

welly• 12 years ago

I'm finding the terminology a little strange for this one..

"Helps you love how you spend every dollar"? While I get the gist of what you're saying, it makes my head hurt a little bit.

Am on Android (Moto G) and every time I tapped the goal amount text box, it requested me to "Rotate device to portrait" despite my portrait lock being turned on, so was unable to add a goal amount.

I like the idea of this app but not quite sure it works for me. I need more than a pretty picture to keep me motivated to save! :) Good luck with it though.

cjf4• 12 years ago

Agree completely, this current trend of slapping "love" and "beautiful" on every start up product is watering down the word a little bit. I love my family, not paying rent.

duiker101• 12 years ago

well, the shots on dribble must have looked beautiful and that is what matters no? /s

msallin• 12 years ago

Simple.com's homepage used to say "Beautiful banking, handcrafted in Portland." <gag>

xwes• 12 years ago

There's a lot in this comment, so I'd like to explicitly second the bug report in here.

In Chrome on Android, it's impossible to complete the goal amount, so it's impossible to continue.

tomrohlf8• 12 years ago

Thanks for the bug report, we are looking into it.

delosfuegos2• 12 years ago

I had the same bug on Nexus 5. I like the psychology behind the app and would use it, but I fear it will become boring and I will quit. Maybe gamify it a bit more.

tomrohlf8• 12 years ago

We are looking into that aspect of the app and will likely add some mild forms of gamification to make it more engaging over time. If you don't mind sharing, did you have anything particular in mind?

Poiesis• 12 years ago

I liked the terminology. Don't know which one of us is more representative of the target demographic, though.

It's not (necessarily) just marketing fluff. A lot of people view budgeting as "here's what I can't spend money on". It can be easier to stick to a plan when viewed through the lens of getting the maximal enjoyment for the money. There's a lot of people out there who "don't know where it's all going"; the idea is that you consciously decide if you'll be happier spending $100/month on, say, Starbucks or a Beaglebone. Once you know where it's all going, you can decide if you want to spend it on things that might be more enjoyable.

meisterbrendan4• 12 years ago

Thanks for the feedback. The perspective you articulate is exactly what we're trying to do with money management. A lot of people feel pretty bummed when they think about managing their money, and consequently avoid thinking about it and realizing that they could derive more short and long term satisfaction with the ways they spend their money. We think that a positive, visceral experience can help people reframe their relationship with their money and ultimately derive more satisfaction--aka, "love"--the way they are spending their money.

gamerDude• 12 years ago

I really like this idea for more than just money. I think having a habit like this to get rewarded to focus on long term goals over short term rewards would be awesome to have.

It will be interesting to see if they can create a reward system good enough to be effective.

dansimau• 12 years ago

    $ telnet m.trykeep.com 80
    Trying 54.87.165.213...
    telnet: connect to address 54.87.165.213: Connection refused
    telnet: Unable to connect to remote host

bsmith2• 12 years ago

I love the sentiment!

I'll try this out when I have more time later, but I think it's worth noting that, of course, saving is only part of the equation. There is so much you can (and should) do to reduce expenses outside of the mundane day-to-day, as well! For great advice on pursuing financial independence or betterment, much of which has changed my life and habits, see: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ "Financial Freedom Through Badassity"

sergiotapia• 12 years ago

I read that blog yesterday as it was mentioned on a different thread. It seems most of his advice is don't buy anything you literally don't need to survive. What's the point of living if you can't enjoy your life? You'll be a rich corpse, who cares?

What am I missing?

bsmith2• 12 years ago

I think the point is that your middle-class life is an "exploding volcano of wastefulness" and you can make a lot of decisions that reduce your expenses without sacrificing much, if any, quality of life. For example, living closer to work and riding a bike or walking instead of driving a car everywhere—makes you fitter, happier, and saves you cash.

Sure, he takes it to an extreme not all could stomach, but there is practical advice in there for almost anyone in my opinion.

hobo_mark• 12 years ago

It seems most of his advice is don't buy anything you literally don't need to survive. What's the point of living if you can't enjoy your life?

I think therein lies the main fallacy he argues so much against, do you need to buy crap to enjoy your life?

He gets to spend all the time he wants with his kid, or doing anything else really, how much is that worth?

drivers99• 12 years ago

I haven't read the blog, but I wonder how it compares to the philosphy of the book "Your Money or Your Life". In that book, it talks about a fulfillment curve in which the least pleasure is to be found in having too little (poverty, deprivation) and in having/spending too much. Optimization is to be found in having (spending) "enough" but not too much.[1] The book walks you through tracking your spending and then at the end of the month, deciding whether each category's spending was above or below what you think it should be in terms of the enjoyment you got out of it. It then walks you through how to cut back on what you're overspending on with the ultimate goal of getting into better a financial position, up to and including early retirement.

[1] http://newroadmap.pbworks.com/w/page/10458661/The%20Fulfillm... "'Enough' is appreciating and fully enjoying what money brings into our lives, yet never purchasing anything that isn't needed and wanted."

So I just googled "fulfillment curve" and one of the top results was from a mr money mustache forum post: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-sham...

The way he writes it as "fulfillment curve" being in contrast with "MMM" makes me think you have a point.

hoopism• 12 years ago

Think I posted it.

MMM is like religion... take 10% of it to heart and you'll likely find something of use... throw the other 90% out.

bildung• 12 years ago

What am I missing?

I think you're missing that the most gratifing things in live are not shoppable. Learning stuff, producing stuff. Seeing your kids grow. It's the difference between strawberries from the supermarket and strawberries you raised and harvested yourself. The feeling of sleeping the first night in a bed you made with your own hands.

Or, another example I just observed looking out the window: Here in Germany people often seem to think they need special clothing for the most mundane activities. They want to go cycling, first thing they do is go to a store and buy cycling clothes. It's ridiculous. As if you are able to ride longer or faster in pink polyester shorts with stripes. I think that's what that blog is about. Shopping is a distraction from real life.

edit: typo.

boredprogrammer• 12 years ago

The main sentiment behind MMM has always seemed to be "get a really high paying job and work your ass off for a few years". It doesn't really work if you are stuck in an average wage, with few prospects and no jobs to apply for.

waterfowl4• 12 years ago

this is true. It is certainly more plausible for the average HN reader than the average person in the world though.

tomrohlf8• 12 years ago

I love MMM... his blog has created some inspiration for this app!

lazyant• 12 years ago

non-mobile link: http://trykeep.com/

cocolos• 12 years ago

is the link dead?

meisterbrendan4• 12 years ago

It doesn't seem to be. Are you running into an error?

fideloper• 12 years ago

mint.com, while not really innovating...at all...anymore... is still pretty nice for tracking your various accounts, including investments and debts (student loans, etc)

logician76• 12 years ago

The email address is @intuit.com, so I'm guessing it's related to mint.

lost_name• 12 years ago

http://moments.intuitlabs.com/

You would be correct.

MrMeker• 12 years ago

Not a good choice for a name. Google Keep has been around for a while and does something similar: organization.

BorisMelnik• 12 years ago

Immediately what I thought of as well, I use Google Keep for everything notetaking / todo etc and would really have a hard time adopting this.

schnevets• 12 years ago

I love it! A big part of my financial philosophy is based on a similar thought exercise:

Before you make an impulsive decision, imagine a stranger walks up to you. In one hand, he has the thing you're about to buy. In the other hand, he has the amount of money you are about to spend. He will give you one or the other for free with absolutely no catch. Which one do you take?

Besides that, I like the "hold to add cash" interface and I like that it's a mobile web platform (although I hope an Android widget is in the works). Hopefully they can get their server problems ironed out soon.

mfwziegler• 12 years ago

Why do you like that it's a mobile web platform?

nilkn• 12 years ago

Based on my experience at least, YNAB (You Need A Budget -- http://www.youneedabudget.com/) is the best budgeting software out there. It's a lot more complex than this, and unlike something like Mint it does require you to manually enter transactions.

However, it is really the best interface I've found for setting a budget. Probably the best feature is that it can naturally incorporate overspending. If you set your grocery budget to $200 and you spend $250, YNAB isn't just like "yo, reduce your grocery spending." It remembers that you overspent by $50 and encourages you to incorporate that into next month's budget in a flexible way.

Unless you're a multimillionaire, you can probably benefit from using it. In fact, even if you are quite wealthy, plenty of celebrities have demonstrated repeatedly that it's still possible to go broke in just a few years.

jonlucc• 12 years ago

My wife and I were discussing this a few weeks ago. If YNAB could automatically grab my bank transactions like Mint, I would be sold. I love their philosophy on budgeting.

Haul4ss• 12 years ago

The whole point of YNAB (Rule #1 of their program) is that you need to proactively allocate every dollar you have. Every dollar has a job, and then you need to manually enter when that dollar is doing its job so you feel when that money actually gets spent.

I tried for years to use Mint, but it's too passive. Too easy to ignore. With YNAB, every purchase goes in when we make the purchase, and I found it keeps us more honest about our budget estimates and also helps to curtail frivolous spending.

To each his own, of course.

gallamine• 12 years ago

Have you just tried it first? I'm not being hard, but I had the same feeling until we did it for the 34 day trial. Frankly, I now love the fact that it doesn't do anything automated in the background, now I actually have to consciously track my spend. Mint just became a passive record of spending. YNAB is active.

amwelles• 12 years ago

I adore YNAB. I started using it a couple of years ago when I had no savings and was living paycheck-to-paycheck but was making decent money. Now I have a cushy emergency fund, moving apartments was a breeze, and I'm saving up to buy some land. You do have to stick to their philosophy, but I've found it works really well for me.

waterfowl4• 12 years ago

YNAB is dope and pretty cheap now with steam sales. Back in the bad old days it was like $60 but still super worth it(you'll save $60 in a couple days) and they seem like a pretty cool mostly remote etc dev shop.

incision• 12 years ago

'Based on my experience at least, YNAB (You Need A Budget -- http://www.youneedabudget.com/) is the best budgeting software out there. It's a lot more complex than this, and unlike something like Mint it does require you to manually enter transactions.'

I'm a big fan of YNAB.

Being fully automated would certainly be nice, but grabbing a set of CSVs from my bank once a month is a not a big deal and the software does a reasonable job of matching categories once it has some data.

'Unless you're a multimillionaire, you can probably benefit from using it.'

I'd imagine so.

What I think makes YNAB really valuable is that is that it's loose enough so as not to become a mess if you aren't consistent and exacting about keeping it up to date.

You're going to get something out of it even if you don't bother to create a specific allowances. Simply going with suggested categories and generating a budget based on prior outflows will provide a useful perspective.

lifeisstillgood• 12 years ago

It requires a win / mac machine? Why?

I thought no one did that anymore ?

brixon• 12 years ago

You live in a bubble. Most apps I use at work are installed on the machine.

aendruk• 12 years ago

There was a third option until Adobe dropped support for AIR on Linux. YNAB has since been encouraging customers to use Wine.

http://www.youneedabudget.com/support/article/linux-installa...

mannkind• 12 years ago

YNAB is amazing. Even when you don't actually need to budget it's incredibly useful to see spending habits, trends, etc.

I used Mint for a number of years, but the automated stuff was constantly wrong and the passive downloads broke all the time after Mint switched away Yodlee's data aggregation.

porker2• 12 years ago

7 months into using it my partner & I find YNAB very overcomplicated. Being freelance I don't have a steady income, and I've never managed to make it handle that well. Because the income figure isn't correct it's hard to see what I'm actually spending (if I put my 'lump income' in a category and move money between categories to have 'income' each month, that mucks up the amounts).

I have yet to get it to balance any month too. Some categories (e.g. clothing) we work on an annual budget, so overspending in these categories rolls forward; that doesn't seem to work smoothly.

My partner can't get her head around it at all, which is a bit of a bummer.

What I'd like is a much simpler system based on the old T account (envelope accounts are similar) where each category functions as a virtual account, showing what was spent, inter-category transfers and overall status.

percentcer• 12 years ago

I haven't done full time freelance so feel free to shoot this idea down, but I'm always curious as to why freelancers don't just put their income in a separate, harder-to-access bank account and pay themselves a regular, weekly disbursement from that.

aculver• 12 years ago

One trick I found really helped me curb thoughtless spending in the past was calculating the cost of purchases based not on the sticker price, but on the sticker price + whatever the compounded interest would be for the same amount of money on my mortgage. (At the time our interest rate was 5% with about 27.5 years left on our mortgage, so it effectively doubled the price of everything.) The thought was that if we spent that money vs. putting it on the mortgage, we were essentially locking those dollars in to being charged interest for the life of the loan. It doesn't take into account re-financing, etc., but it was a lot easier not to buy $10 smoothies vs. $5 ones. :-)

tomrohlf8• 12 years ago

I love that idea... creates a more accurate picture of exactly how much you could be "saving."

JoshTriplett• 12 years ago

Thinking about interest and growth does help put prices in perspective. Using mortgage interest rates doesn't work as well these days, since they've fallen so much, but you can use the standard market growth rates instead: either 7% or 4% depending on whether you take inflation into account.

stronglikedan2• 12 years ago

A direct input would be nice. It took me five seconds to keep eight dollars by holding, but it could have taken only one second with direct input. Any particular reason that it's limited to this mechanic?

Also, it seems to be stuck on the eight dollar screen. It keeps asking me to hold to $8, but never shows me a new photo. This is the stock Note 3 browser.

EDIT: Now I can't even get it to register $3. Perhaps we are hugging the site too hard.

tomrohlf8• 12 years ago

hmmm... We've been optimizing for safari and chrome. Maybe give it a try in one of those?

stronglikedan2• 12 years ago

Yup. Chrome worked well. Nice work!

andkon2• 12 years ago

I really really like it. I see the value and have signed up and added to my homescreen. Truly a great interface compared to typing out numbers.

Also I really want to turn this into an iOS app! There's some cool stuff you can do with it natively, like add a buzz + sound when you save a buck, which sure would feel satisfying (ever used the task management app Clear?). Let me know if you wanna go that way and I'd be happy to put a weekend towards it.

tomrohlf8• 12 years ago

Awesome, I'm glad to hear you've found value in Keep! We're thinking about making it native and will be sure to let you know if/when we do.

JRobertson• 12 years ago

I opened this on my iPad expecting to find an app store link at their m.trykeep.com. I did not find one, instead I found a web page that kept asking me to touch and interact with it, but that barely wanted to react. I had to tap and hold 7 times to get the first "example" to work, and then closed it and gave up after 5 attempts on the second.

I could not find it in the app store either, so is this a browser based solution? If so, I highly recommend getting the touch sensitivity worked out on chrome on the browser.

I do realize this may be load based from your servers getting hit and so if I remember I will try again later.

Also, I get the impression this might require requires server connectivity, if it does then you're excluding so many people without data plans.

I like the idea, just couldn't get the execution to actually work for me in a way I'd consider using it.

tomrohlf8• 12 years ago

We haven't built a native app just yet but we're thinking in that direction. If you have a chance to try it again open it up in safari or chrome on your phone. Thanks for being patient!

ampedlemon3• 12 years ago

Thanks for the feedback! Eventually we would build this natively, but we wanted to get something out quick and dirty via mobile web just to see if theres any interest/value for users.

Ended• 12 years ago

This is a cool idea. My bank recently introduced a similar feature in their mobile app. You can move a small amount of money from your current account to your savings account in a couple of clicks (no need to log in): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12xjelPXqWo

tomrohlf8• 12 years ago

Awesome video, thanks for sharing! Looks like we aren't the first ones to build something for saving in the moment.

DLarsen• 12 years ago

Pretty neat. I'm also working on a side project in the same vein. The key to improving spending behavior in my own household has been to focus on and evaluate decisions. http://www.spendlight.com/

My approach is a bit broader in that I find it useful to record both the good and bad decisions with a view toward improvement.

I also prompt users for a bit of self-evaluation. When you goof, you are asked something like "What could you have done without in order to stay within your limits?" When you do well, you are asked something like "What was the key to making wise choices today?"

I'm not a big fan of the input mechanism. It's novel and fun, but I'd bet that the fun wears out quickly.

_lce0• 12 years ago

it's really annoying that you wont allow me to open m.trykeep.com on my desktop.. without even telling me why I can't .. simply redirecting to the not-mobile page where I was before is asking the end-user to go away, like I did

zheshishei• 12 years ago

For anyone who doesn't want to pull out their phone, reduce the width of your browser to about the size of a smartphone and then click the link.

reshambabble• 12 years ago

Wow. You've taken a key insight and created something that directly hits the emotions of your users. You're engaging their feelings, passions, and desires. It will be nice to see how your website, communications, and even your product evolves!

Rakathos• 12 years ago

FYI, it looks like the mobile site has some issues in IE on Windows Phone. The white text is a bit hard to read with the background image [1], and refreshing the page results in this [2]. Looking forward to trying it out though!

[1] http://imgur.com/vtp2PnZ

[2] http://imgur.com/3iEI4kw

resurge• 12 years ago

I also had the problem that when I selected an input box, the keyboard would open and the app would think that I had flipped the phone. It then showed me the black screen prompting me to flip it back which caused the browser to lose focus of the now nonexistant input box causing the keyboard to collapse again.

ampedlemon3• 12 years ago

Thanks for the feedback, we'll push some fixes for the orientation bug tonight

avens19• 12 years ago

I've made something to track spending on a weekly basis. I've found that most budget apps are too heavy, and most run on a monthly cycle. I can easily calculate rough figures for fixed income and expenses, I just need something to track spending money. Doing a budget by week is much easier to track and plan, and makes it easier to answer the question "Can I afford this?". Anyway, here is the Android app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrewoven...

And the mobile app: https://budgetapp.azurewebsites.net/

emeltzz• 12 years ago

This is a really neat piece of interaction design.

meisterbrendan4• 12 years ago

Thanks for the feedback! What about this works for you? What could be even better?

cpayne• 12 years ago

I think its very clever. I really like how your example takes me through the steps first, then asks to sign me up for an account.

Much better than asking to create an account first, then walk me through the app.

meisterbrendan4• 12 years ago

Thanks for the feedback! As you use the app, please let us know if there is anything we could do to make it better for you.

mrpoptart• 12 years ago

nexus 4: goal amount: this will cost put cursor in field keyboard opens window registers as landscape due to width/height problem keyboard closes repeat.

Paul_Dessert• 12 years ago

I think it's great. I love the simplicity and the UI. A lot of times we over complicate things. This is a great example of getting back to basics. I'd argue that this is not budgeting software, nor should it be. Instead, it's a way for users to stop and think about what they are buying and ask themselves if they really need to make the purchase.

I know someone who buys two drinks at Starbucks every day. To them, this was about $7/per day. No big deal. I quickly did the math and showed her the result, $2555 per year. Sometimes, perspective is a huge motivator.

Also, nice job on the design and web based app. I'm happy that I simply needed to navigate to a URL on my phone. I didn't have to install another app, grant permissions etc. etc..

Great work! Good luck!

smsm42• 12 years ago

The app is clever, but as somebody with long-time interest in personal finance, I feel the premise is a bit on the wrong side. Avoiding bad buys doesn't mean the same sum is now somehow free to spend. You need to both avoid bad buys and have a sane budget with money allocated for your needs and wants - which should come out of real money you earn, not imaginary money you "saved" when not buying what you didn't need anyway.

Otherwise it reminds me a joke about a man who brags to his wife that he saved money by running after the bus instead of taking it and paying the fare. The wife says - next time run after a taxi, you'd save more! Unfortunately, savings don't work exactly like that.

sddhrthrt• 12 years ago

On windows phone, keeping on holding opens a right-click menu and I cant go ahead.

swah• 12 years ago

Do all of those services process emails w/ your online purchases?

Show HN: Keep, an app that helps you love how you spend every dollar

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