Developer Anxiety, we’re not alone

http://geekyboy.com/archives/880

by saurabh • 12 years ago

222 131 12 years ago

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geekam2• 12 years ago

There should be a poll somewhere for programmers asking the top 3 things that give them anxiety.

opendais2• 12 years ago

1) Idiot bosses. 2) Concern over job security. 3) The fact they aren't perfect and bugs happen.

angersock2• 12 years ago

Sure, I'll bite.

  1. Am I doing something that's worth doing?

  2. Am I having to deliberately build the wrong thing (legacy reasons, etc.)?

  3. Do I have the power to fix things?

I think that part of the acuity of the problem is that we don't really get to lie to ourselves about what we do. The computer doesn't care about any white lies--so, if we want it to do X, Y, or Z, we program that. And if we are told that the product we're working on does W, or !X, well, that's clearly wrong. That in turn leads to dissonance, and that gets at you over time.

Part of the problem with 2 is that there is usually a sound business reason (i.e., customer wants it that way) which forces our hand. Part of the problem with 3 is that it can take enormous effort, resolve, and ultimately conflict to get at the root of what's broken and fix it--and in some cases, such as launching a new product, you can do everything technically correct and still fail.

fat0wl• 12 years ago

Yea it is pretty much this & the things listed in the article -- I turned down an RoR gig to work in Java enterprise package software stuff. I look around me and see lots of poor implementations happening. When I can write and take ownership of my own code life is fine but when you look around the room and see all these awful implementations happening you just see things as a ticking time bomb.

How long until I have to integrate with their code? Refactor their code? Be managed by one of the PMs that allowed such repulsive work to be produced? Be forced to buddy code with someone who conned their way into their job to begin with?

And then sitting atop all that -- the realization that I would leave for a community of more solid engineers, if not for the fact that I will have to swim through an army of recruiters/HR reps who are just as bad as the con-artists around me.

Business people in the IT industry seem to have very sharp teeth but are always sinking them into the wrong targets, are skeptical of all the wrong people. I wonder why that is. I have a master's degree in a technical discipline and have actually been told to my face by an HR rep that my "coding skills aren't strong enough" because I didn't know a particular API that their company uses.

It's an awfully confused & disrespectful industry, full of phonies.

logfromblammo4• 12 years ago

I'm just going to go ahead and pick exactly the same three things.

Of course, if you have the same three worries, your real major worry should be whether you can get a better job before you burn out. And that leads to a corollary worry about whether companies that try to provide a healthy, sane work environment have a competitive disadvantage versus companies that are dysfunctional. And that makes me worry about whether I even want to live on this planet any more.

So I guess my 3 are these:

1. Is this as good as it gets?

2. Can anything that's better endure?

3. Would starting over somewhere else improve anything?

geekam2• 12 years ago

That list of three things resonates well with the one I have. I'd also add job security along side #3 for me. Always wonder if I have the power to change when everything seems and is so fickle.

dannytatom• 12 years ago

1) General Anxiety Disorder, 2) Everything else

ColinDabritz3• 12 years ago

I haven't had the acute anxiety problems (yet), but I do feel many of the same stresses. I'd like to thank the author for sharing, that is a very brave thing to do.

As developers we see deeper into problems, we have a 'ground truth' of the state of the code base that no one else can see, and often gets ignored, because they can't see.

When requirements aren't detailed enough, people get frustrated with us because we're asking "stupid questions" about details that they don't believe matter, but that they would be upset about if we don't get them right.

When the code base is a mess, it's not on the restaurant floor, where everything seems fine, it's back in the kitchen behind closed doors where they never go. But it's hard to work in a messy kitchen, but everyone needs their food right now! Just get out one more appetizer, one more entree, as fast as possible, don't "waste time" cleaning up.

Some problems come from unknowns that we can't get help dealing with because other can't see them. Some come from know problems, that we can't get permission to address, because other can't see them. We're not hallucinating, but from an outside perspective we might as well be. It can be tough when others smile and nod, but you can tell by their actions that they don't really believe you. It feels like they don't trust you. And that can hurt.

All we can do is ask for that trust and try to communicate about those hallucinations as best as we can.

mylons• 12 years ago

Just about a year ago, I left a startup after experiencing everything in the article more or less and took it very hard because I was the only actual engineer there. I never had a panic attack until about 2 weeks before moving for a new job. It was the most horrific experience of my life. I say this as a warning. I thought I was immune to it, or just was coping well enough that I had it under control.

angersock2• 12 years ago

It's okay, friend. These things pass, and life goes on and gets better. Hang in there!

danielweber• 12 years ago

"I'll get through it by being really smart and working really hard!"

This works for a lot of people, right up until it doesn't.

boie0025• 12 years ago

I got out of a similar situation about 2 months ago. It was awful. On top of all the aforementioned stressors, I actually was severely stressed out about bailing out on the company. We're all in this together. I wish more people would acknowledge that.

sanderjd• 12 years ago

Your kitchen analogy is great! I hadn't heard it before - thanks for sharing.

ColinDabritz3• 12 years ago

Thanks! It actually started when I found technical debt to be a buzzwordy term without the appropriate meaning. What I came up with was "Dirty dishes". All the little things you can put off, but need to deal with on a regular basis. You need to get back to 'clean'. The analogy has a lot of depth and good connections, but the important part is the visual, visceral reaction most people have to the image of a kitchen full of dirty dishes.

JoeAltmaier2• 12 years ago

Projects are well-served by scheduling time for 'technical debt', which is whatever the developers say it is. Its time to revisit code and repair/replace weak links.

ColinDabritz3• 12 years ago

I recall one project where we were allocated "refactoring" time, which turned almost immediately into performance profiling, you know, something you could see. It's like management gets itchy when they can't see change for more than 48 hours.

h1karu4• 12 years ago

What makes it worse is when other developers whisper in their ear that you are in-fact hallucinating. This is often done out of jealousy, spite, or plain old ignorance.

The bottom line though is that if your primary stakeholders are listening attentively to the developers concerns about the underlying integrity of the product then you've got much larger problems than just a messy codebase and it might be time to abandon ship.

evanlivingston3• 12 years ago

I'm happy to see someone point out lots of the stressors that effect developers. However I think the advice on how to handle the stressors is poor. While many of the activities do help with the symptoms of stress, none of the items in the list promote a real lifestyle change that would help eliminate the cause of the stress.

Personally, I plan on transitioning out of Software development as a means of avoiding the associated stress.

bgrohman2• 12 years ago

What are you planning on doing instead of software development?

evanlivingston3• 12 years ago

I plan on: 1) working substantially fewer hours, ideally ~20 and 2) Woodworking.

While being self employed will introduce it's own stresses, I'm excited to work and pursue a craft that changes much less dramatically and quickly as software development does.

ccallebs• 12 years ago

This hit home, I'm going through this right now. Work issues coupled with recently getting married, changing cities, and miscellaneous family problems makes every conflict or obstacle seem much larger than it is.

To stay zen, I frequently remind myself that everything is a lot better (and a lot worse) than it appears.

kirse5• 12 years ago

I don’t really have the answers, nobody does. But felt I should create this post and put it out there. Perhaps others will read it and realize they’re not alone. And sometimes just knowing that can help lessen the stress levels.

Sorry, just because he personally doesn't have an answer does not mean everyone else does not.

This will likely be unpopular here, but I used to struggle plenty with anxiety and occasional panic attacks until I learned it was better to pray about these things daily (or even as they come) and intimately discuss and honestly trust these burdens to God. ("Cast all your cares on him, for he cares for you...")

All that advice merely snips at the branches of fear/anxiety without uprooting the tree. That's not to say all fear/anxiety will be uprooted, but simply that knowing and experiencing the love of God daily has continued to weed out many of those fear-based anxious roots and replace them with saplings of peace, joy, and confidence.

Anxiety tends to wear one down and make one feel hopeless ("there is no answer"), but there is indeed an Answer who works through us in time, and can lead us to still waters if we ask Him to show us the way. Life won't always feel perfect or anxiety-free, but at least I know to whom I can confidently entrust my troubles.

0xdeadbeefbabe• 12 years ago

Haven't you ever felt anxious at church?

Zikes• 12 years ago

With respect, that's your answer, but it's not the answer.

kirse5• 12 years ago

That's fine. But at what point does an anecdote of a changed mind and life become admissible in the public court of reason? Do you require one story? What about a thousand? A million? Tens of millions?

At what point would a rational person conclude, "Hmm, maybe their answer may also apply to me?" I at least figured I could say "OK, God, if you might be the Answer, then show me the way..."

jqm2• 12 years ago

I'm guessing prayer probably does help if done properly.

And I'm an atheist. Chew on that for a bit.

webmaven• 12 years ago

Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!

arh68• 12 years ago

Prayer probably does help, even if there is no God. Just assume that it does work. After all, if it helps a believer to pray, and you can acknowledge that there was nobody else in the room while they were praying, you've got to wonder: how does it work? The only person it could possibly have an influence on is the person praying. And since the activity of prayer requires a focus of some sort, I think the real audience of the prayer is the subconscious.

After all, if you trust yourself to do something, if you trust your subconscious, shouldn't you be able to tell it just once what it needs to do, then not worry about it?

Anyhow that's what I was thinking a couple days ago.

Geee• 12 years ago

Huh, that's not an answer. Although, 'thinking less' and not letting your thoughts wander is considered a good advice for depression and anxiety [0], so maybe by 'trusting burdens to God' is the same thing. I learned to 'not think at all' a few years back and I've been much happier since then.

[0] http://io9.com/5687282/letting-your-mind-wander-is-a-major-c...

insuffi2• 12 years ago

Your confidence in asserting what the solution to this problem is a bit concerning(not to mention how your suggestions are hardly actionable). At least the author is somewhat humble.

kirse5• 12 years ago

Why would I be humble about something that has personally changed me? If a man discovers a cure for his cancer, would he quietly keep it to himself, or would he take it straight to CNN and rave about the solution he's found, in hope that everyone could try it for themselves?

There are actionable suggestions, but you would need to take the time to seek understanding. I hope I haven't made it sound simple and easy.

yarou• 12 years ago

I'm glad you've been able to find a healthy way to solve your anxiety issues. That being said, (and I don't want to start a religion vs. atheism debate here) do you think what you do is on the whole any different than someone who uses alcohol or any drug to temporarily escape?

k-mcgrady2• 12 years ago

Not the parent but I have a thought on it. I'm not agnostic but a few years ago when I got really anxious about something praying/God helped me. I think the reason was that it took the thing that was making me anxious and passed the responsibility on to someone I thought could take care of the problem for me. I think it's similar to the way you felt comfortable when you were younger staying in your parents house but on your own might have got anxious. At your parents house the risks are the same but you've got someone there you feel will protect you. Essentially I think God/prayer helps because it gives you the feeling someone else more powerful than you is there to help.

floody-berry4• 12 years ago

I would go so far as to say that if it works, it isn't a temporary escape. If you honestly think whatever you're praying to will take care of your problems, and this causes you to relax to the point where your brain learns not to react to the anxiety.. that's the ultimate goal, isn't it?

This of course says nothing about the objective truth of the beliefs, but that doesn't affect the brain; the connections being created or broken (or whatever scientifically happens) are what matter, not why it's occurring.

JoeAltmaier2• 12 years ago

I'm glad it works for you. Anxiety can be caustic. I like to see this positive attitude. However, I'm careful to distinguish the mental relief gained from trusting a higher power, to any conclusions about the existence of that higher power.

Wouldn't it provide about the same mental relief to just accept that all is not in our hands, and leave it at that? I think it does, and I reduce stress that way.

Dewie3• 12 years ago

This will likely be unpopular here,

Whatever works for you. There's nothing wrong with religion or spirituality as long as it serves you well. Of course, this could be said about anything, but I don't see any legitimate reason for naysayers to single out religion as a crutch or something.

Your approach sounds like some kind of meditation, to me. Certainly that has proven to be beneficial to a lot of people. I'm not one to dismiss the spiritual side of meditation, either.

kirse5• 12 years ago

It's unfortunate that what I have presented comes off sounding as an "approach", because it is a relationship. Praying is talking to God, and reading the Bible is hearing and being able to discern his word (knowing Him).

As scientists and engineers we like to dissect and explain things in terms of our extremely limited body of knowledge. We set up structures and frameworks and rules for living and whatnot. But in the end, it's not an "approach". The best relationships have no one-way approach, they're fluid and you're authentic and vulnerable with each other. And sometimes there really are no words to explain that connection, just the inexplicable shared bond of emotion in the quietest moments.

And so is the same with a relationship with God. To attempt to squeeze something so incredibly dynamic into the limited confines of the knowledge of this world / science would merely rob it of its power. Nor is it self-serving, nor was the focus/goal to reduce fear/anxiety... which can only be described as a side effect.

zedadex3• 12 years ago

The article is correct in saying that nobody has "the answers." Religion is not _the_ answer, it is _an_ answer.

You may feel as though the previous sentence is belittling your beliefs. However, saying the answer that works for you would work for everyone else is just as belittling to other's beliefs. It's an intractable stalemate that has only one logical conclusion - that no one can (or should!) assert their beliefs as being the only way to go. I wholly acknowledge that your beliefs are what work for you - but I do not recognize them as "the answers" the OP is talking about.

For something to be "the answer," singular, would require it to be the _psychological_ answer to stressors. The reason the article is so psychology-oriented is because "the" answer would by necessity have to be a psychological one, not a personal one. Something that works for one person (like establishing a relationship) but may not work for the next can never be "the answer" that a better psychological understanding of the problem would reach.

In spite of how much religion has done for you, it isn't an answer that works for everyone, and so is obviously not "the answers" OP is referring to. It's still your answer, but that doesn't mean it's the answer. Psychology is the only commonality between all human beings, so that's where "the answers" lie.

strictfp• 12 years ago

Best thing I ever did to cope is that I started to deal with people instead of trying to avoid them.

Take the discussion the first time it comes up. Speak your mind as soon as you are given a chance. Keep repeating yourself in meetings and stick with it. Fight for the things that you find important.

It sucks that you have to keep babbling with all these people around you in order to avoid everything collapsing on your head, but the sooner you realise this fact the better. And if you figure out that you are the only one at your job who actually care about your job and the quality of the stuff you produce, then good on you. It'll motivate you to find a better one.

carise• 12 years ago

Great advice about facing problems head on, instead of running or avoiding. I started doing that when my anxiety was at its worst, and I've been feeling much better since.

I had been at the company for several years and felt like I was just wandering -- pretty much self taught in a lot of things, for better or worse, so I didn't understand a lot of things still. Pretty much everyone else on the team was/is a senior engineer, and when we would have discussions, I would be quite lost... but I was too afraid/proud to ask for help to understand. I would always feel anxiety during meetings especially, because everyone gave input and I had nothing to say.

I decided that instead of boiling myself in my own anxiety about not knowing how things worked, I would go ask another engineer to help me understand. Reaching out and asking for help (and deciding not to care what people thought of me) helped me realize that it's "ok" (to some extent) to have imposter syndrome.

badman_ting• 12 years ago

Good point, sometimes the dread can be worse than the encounter itself. The only way out is through.

gargh• 12 years ago

I too am a developer who suffers from anxiety and panic attacks. There have been times when I feel constantly locked in a 'fight or flight' mode.

After trying many things to relax and cut out as much stress as possible, I finally found that trigger point therapy helps to resolve the issue. It turns out that years of sitting at a desk causes your chest muscles to become tight over time, and when that happens your back and shoulders work harder. Add in stress which causes muscle tension and you end up with chronic trigger points, also known as knots.

You can read up on it, but depending on which trigger points you have activated they can cause a range of symptoms from pain to anxiety. If you treat the trigger points to release them (which might take a while if you're like me), you'll feel really good.

jqm2• 12 years ago

"Am I doing something worth doing?" No... no you aren't. What you are doing is going to disappear and no one will remember it nor care. Right now you are just wasting time.... a little puff of cotton on the breeze. The human condition is absolutely hopeless. And this is the truth.

Yet.... here you are. Open your eyes. Open your lungs and breathe. This moment is all there is. There is no other. We can't deny it. The fact of being conscious. The cellular joy of existing. The rest is just imagination. There. Have a little more perspective? Ok. Good. Now go get back to work. We have deadlines.

Zelphyr7• 12 years ago

This is close to my heart because its something I've dealt with since I was a child. For 10 years I abated it with medication and that worked quite well. Except for the side effects that caused other problems in my life (literally wanted to sleep all the time). And anyway, the medication is just a band-aid.

Early this year a full-on panic attack hit me. The first time in 10 years. A recent divorce and changing jobs were probably the stressors. And ironically I was actually in a very happy place in my life. The divorce had been done with for several months and I was at a job where I can really have an impact and don't feel like I needed to look over my shoulder constantly. My boss's incredible understanding during this difficult time for me is testament to that.

But the panic doesn't much care about those things. It has a sneaky ability to strike when you least expect it.

Thankfully I found a great doctor whose therapy is evidence based. If you suffer from panic/anxiety and seek treatment (which I HIGHLY suggest you do!) then be sure they're trained in an evidence based technique. I also recommend reading "Hope And Help For Your Nerves" or listening to "Pass Through Panic" by Claire Weekes.

What I've learned in the months since is that in order to overcome the panic and anxiety you have to do something very simple yet seemingly incredibly difficult; you have to let it happen. Let the panic wash over you. Don't run. Don't distract yourself. Close your eyes and focus on breathing from your belly--deep breaths from the belly rather than shallow breaths from the chest. And then pay attention to where the panic is and what it feels like. Just observe whats happening and let it happen.

You have an upper-boundary to how bad it can get because your body can only produce so much adrenaline. So let it. It'll spend itself out and calm down automatically. The more you let it happen the faster you'll calm down because you're reworking those neural pathways. Literally retraining your brain that no, in fact, you're not being attacked by a lion. You might feel like you just got hit by a car afterwards and, interestingly, to your body its the same thing, but the significant bit here is you're not going to die!. You're not going to go crazy[1]!. You're going to be ok.

This time it might be a 10 on a scale of 1-10 but the next time, as long as you let it happen, it'll probably be an 8/9. Then the next time maybe a 5/6. And on and on until pretty soon it'll happen and you'll say, "Oh, hello old friend. Shall we do some work?"

[1]: "Going crazy" as a loose term for something like schizophrenia which the science is showing you will have a genetic predisposition towards. If you don't have a direct blood family member who suffers from it then you probably don't have it either.

EDIT: For clarification; I had stopped taking the medication a little over a year prior that first-in-10-years panic attack.

jt21902• 12 years ago

  > What I've learned in the months since is that in order 
  > to overcome the panic and anxiety you have to do 
  > something very simple yet seemingly incredibly 
  > difficult; you have to let it happen.

I believe you're referring to some form of Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy#An...

Zelphyr7• 12 years ago

Exactly. Treating panic the same way you might treat a fear of snakes for example. Gradual exposure to it until at some point the brain recognizes that feeling as not dangerous.

goldfeld• 12 years ago

So is that a name doctors, after much painstaking research, slapped on top of what has been known for millenia as meditation? Because that's exactly describing something like vipassana, or mindfulness meditation. Sometimes it's funny to watch the west's child-prodigy "scientific method" take so long to come around full circle at age-old wisdom, in this case something that's probably been known from before Civilization.

curiousDog• 12 years ago

What sort of therapy did you get? I went to my GP and he dismissed it as lack of exercise. Exercise doesn't seem to help me that much though. So I'm at a loss as to what kind of a doctor I should be visiting in the first place

ciokan3• 12 years ago

You can visit a psychiatrist because all others will dismiss you.

Zelphyr7• 12 years ago

As @jt2190 mentioned I believe its a form of Cognitived Based Therapy/Exposure therapy.

Dismissing it as simply a lack of exercise, in my opinion, is reason to find a new GP. That said, getting more exercise is always a good thing. As is eating healthier. Cut back on the sodas and caffeine. Though, as my therapist said, unless you're unusually sensitive to caffeine you shouldn't have to cut it out completely in order to stop panic attacks.

Another thing I did was had my GP test my vitamin B, D, and magnesium levels. I was low on all and being low may be a contributor to anxiety so I started taking supplements. I'm trying to identify foods I like that are high in them so that I can get them more naturally.

Also, and this is another key point that I should've mentioned before, fear can only exist in a vacuum. So talk about it! Lets get rid of this "I'm a fearless American MAYUN!" bullshit. We're ALL afraid. We're ALL vulnerable. Its ok. It doesn't make us weak.

e12e• 12 years ago

What I've learned in the months since is that in order to overcome the panic and anxiety you have to do something very simple yet seemingly incredibly difficult; you have to let it happen. Let the panic wash over you. Don't run. Don't distract yourself. Close your eyes and focus on breathing from your belly--deep breaths from the belly rather than shallow breaths from the chest. And then pay attention to where the panic is and what it feels like. Just observe whats happening and let it happen.

    "I must not fear. 
     Fear is the mind-killer. 
     Fear is the little-death that brings
       total obliteration. 
     I will face my fear. 
     I will permit it to pass over me and through me. 
     And when it has gone past I will turn
       the inner eye to see its path. 
     Where the fear has gone there will be nothing
       ....only I will remain"
     -- Frank Herbert, "Dune"

I had some brief moments of anxiety when I was growing up -- I never sought any treatment, but the coping mechanism I developed was essentially what you describe. I suspect others have had more/stronger problems -- for me the thing passed after a few years, and so far hasn't come back.

I certainly recommend seeking treatment with any illness that is bad enough that it causes problems in daily life -- I'm sure I would have needed treatment if it didn't just pass "on its own".

mercer• 12 years ago

I've done this too, and 'leaning in' and observing rather than fighting the feelings definitely seems to help, in general. Perhaps that's why meditation can often be so effective.

winter_blue• 12 years ago

Could you give an example of "something very simple yet seemingly incredibly difficult" -- and how do you come up with your own such "tasks" that are most well-suited to yourself?

Zelphyr7• 12 years ago

The simple yet difficult thing is to let the panic happen. When you run away you're distracting yourself which can dissipate the panic but it only prolongs it. So instead of being at a 10 you're at a more manageable 6. But you're there for hours. Letting the panic happen means you're at a 10 for a few minutes tops and then you're down to below a 2 pretty quickly.

I didn't come up with the tasks on my own. I learned them while working with my therapist. What seems to work for me is to run up and down a flight of stairs a 3-4 times and then breathe through a straw for about 45 seconds while holding my nostrils closed.

I'm getting plenty of air but my brain's reaction is to flash panic. The first flash is around a 6 for about a second or two. Very easy to manage. But I stay present for those few seconds and even try to make it last. Try to have the panic.

I do this for about 20-25 minutes every other day. In this way I expose myself to little bits of panic consciously. When an actual panic attack happens now (which it still does on occasion) its increasingly less severe than the last time. And each time I recover more quickly.

But most importantly, I now know a part of me I never really knew. I have and have always had a strength I wasn't even aware of. All I had to do was look fear in the eye and watch it shirk away.

mendicantB• 12 years ago

I must not fear.

Fear is the mind-killer.

Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.

I will face my fear.

I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.

Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.

Only I will remain

jrheard• 12 years ago

This post was very important for me. I've been struggling with anxiety lately without knowing it. I've been having a very hard time. "Pass Through Panic" really helped me a lot, and I'm starting "Hope And Help For Your Nerves". I can't thank you enough for sharing these resources.

Zelphyr7• 12 years ago

Good luck my friend!

cwbrandsma• 12 years ago

I finally worked my way out of this recently. It comes and goes, often when I am very productive. Combinations of constant negative criticism, vague+ambiguous requirements, and argumentative coworkers (seriously, they would argue about the order of words, or who was actually AGREEING with whom). I went from sleeping 8 hours every night to getting 2 hours most nights, then 10.

ZhL• 12 years ago

I was surprised how much the article resonated with my personal experience. I too had anxiety attacks and ER visit fearing it was a heart disease. Many (too many) doctor visits later, here is what works the best for me: - Exercise. Can not stress this enough. I swim 3 times a week for about 45 minutes each. It loosens my body and significantly elevates anxiety. Strength exercise helps too. - Healthy diet. Minimum sugar, alcohol, caffein, processed foods. - Lunch walks, weekend hikes. - Standing desk. Don't have enough data yet but I think it was helpful overall. As someone mentioned below, I believe too that body tensions and pains have a lot to do with sitting too much. - Enough sleep.

ciokan3• 12 years ago

Had a few panic attacks 2 years ago in the summer. I was working too much (I still do) as an entrepreneur, drinking too much coffee without drinking enough water (coffee tends to dehydrate your body) and my blood too thick from that so it came to me as a sort of dizziness which transformed into a full blown panic attack and an ambulance shortly after that.

I refused pills from day one and found that, by training my mind to say "bring it on! is this the best you can do" tends to stop the anxiety on it's ascension. I go to gym 3 times a week now to to some actual exercise and calm the body a bit. I now am panic free for almost 2 years but I still have the symptoms. What changed is my attitude when the symptoms arrive, it's already in my subconscious and my body does it automatically.

I blame our jobs just like OP and I blame the fact that our job is a whole brainstorm from start to finish. No physical challenge at all and our bodies are not used to it. Our bodies need some physical activity to do it's chemistry and release new stuff periodically so we can function properly otherwise some glands get messed up (this is my own conclusion I didn't hear it from anywhere) so our bodies get unbalanced and stressed. Too much of something is called an addiction and no addiction is left unpunished. We really need to take a break from time to time and just work out or meditate a bit for our body to adjust or at least recover.

No past generation was so technical and multi tasked and so stressed from morning till dawn. We're probably at the border of evolution right now and nature is adjusting us/itself. Future generations will probably deal with this entirely different than us but our bodies are like an old motherboard with a super chip plugged in right now. It's getting burnt. We need some better cooling.

The worst thing about panic attacks is that you have nobody to talk to that can really understand what you're going through apart from others who had it. You can't explain it to someone who didn't because you can even see them smiling..."so...basically you're afraid huh?". They can't comprehend the feeling that you're going to die, right now; that you're probably so certain you're going to die that you probably even said your last words and good byes in your mind. Just don't complain to people any more because you will get a new addiction out of it.

Tl;DR: Do sports (swimming is good), less work (you van find yourself even more productive because productivity has few to do with how much we work), confront your demon when he comes to visit and don't try to explain to people who never dealt with such a thing...they might make things worse.

benmarks• 12 years ago

Huge thanks to EngineYard for their prompt initiative and sponsorship of a mental health summit at php[tek]. Four of us spoke to the entire conference on anxiety and depression. Also, thanks to Ed Finkler (@funkatron) for getting this conversation going in the tech community.

http://prompt.engineyard.com/

jasonlotito2• 12 years ago

I just want to thank you guys again. It meant a lot.

good-citizen• 12 years ago

for years I tried to add various chemicals to my body to find a solution. it seemed obvious that I just needed to get the right drug at the right doseage and that would solve the problem. but the solution was exactly in the opposite direction. I didn't need to ADD things into my body to fix my brain, I needed to PREVENT certain things from entering my blood stream. diet is everything. food is medicine. food is so messed up in our society. to eat a healthy diet that will actually allow your brain to work and not get panic attacks requires EXTREME dedication and will power. AND on top of all that, you need to be social with your friends, family and co-workers and not make your special diet ruin the fun. Super challenging, but as I get older I find it's easier and easier to really carefully monitor each and every bit of food I put into my mouth. I won't bore you with the details but you probably already know, too much sugar, too many carbs, these things matter, a lot. Stop trying to fix big problems with band-aids when you've got to get to the source of the poison in your blood stream.

twfarland• 12 years ago

I've struggled with this for years. Burned out 3 times. I've done CBT, meditation, and tried various medications. I've quit drinking, I eat well, and exercise often. These all helped a bit, but I was still panicky. Nothing helped more than deciding to spend less time sitting manipulating symbols on a screen and more time moving my body, more time in nature, more time with people. I've also resolved to stay away from toxic jobs, no matter how well they pay.

specialist3• 12 years ago

Have you had your cortisol levels tested?

ilaksh• 12 years ago

I think most people including the person who posted this and most posting in the thread have misunderstood what a panic attack is. First of all, a panic attack is not like ordinary anxiety. Getting nervous ahead of a meeting is not a panic attack. Sure sometimes people can get extremely nervous and have a panic attack at times like that, but people can also have a panic attack that seems to come out of the blue. So there are different causes and variations on panic attacks that people here seem to not be comprehending. There can be a number of completely physical rather than mental health issues that can cause panic attacks. Especially if you start getting panic attacks without a history of anxiety you need to carefully rule out those physical causes before you assume that you just need to meditate more or get CBT or something. And even if the cause is mental or psychological there are different types of panic attacks so CBT etc may not be effective and you or your friend may really need medication. Anyway just because you have gotten really nervous a few times don't assume that you understand someones condition well enough to give them medical advice especially if its to tell them to just meditate or somrthing.

AlexUseche• 12 years ago

The author mentioned in the article (as one of his recommendations to his friend) that it may be helpful to read a non-technical book (among other things of course). One book that I have found very instrumental in helping me cope with stress and anxiety is "The Mind and the Brain" by Jeffrey M. Schwartz and Sharon Begley. The reasons why are very specific I think:

1) Its vocabulary appeals to those who like me appreciate science. 2) It tackles concepts that are common in zen and Buddhism but with solid, perhaps even more grounded, explanations. 3) It helps the analytical minded to understand that there is a separation between what the brain experiences and the self. This can help others in understanding through logic and reasoning how to take control of stress and anxiety.

Just though I would share in case anyone needing help with anxiety wants to read something new and helpful.

h1karu4• 12 years ago

This is why "work remote" jobs are so fantastic if you can get them. You don't have to worry as much about politics. In an office environment you have to worry about if you're getting along well enough with people on a personal level and this nebulous "I enjoy working with him or not" factor might make or break your career. At an office job you need to put in hard work to "become friends" with everyone otherwise some people will bear a grudge. Sometimes this is not easy depending on the situation. There are too many "social factors" in office jobs which can make or break you and that have nothing at all to do with your ability to "get shit done". Not so with remote working. All that matters is your ability to be productive.

https://37signals.com/remote/ weworkremote.com

hamidr3• 12 years ago

Though being alone might bring some people social anxiety disorder, IRC.

spacemanmatt• 12 years ago

I recently left a position which provided an office in town for the several of us here, but in practice allowed up to 100% remote work, since the rest of the company was 900 miles away.

There were just as many opportunities for personality conflicts with that arrangement. I joined a company with a better-aligned corporate culture and an expectation to be in the office every day because I decided they are healthier. I mention that, because it was the people, not the policy, that made the first gig ultimately unsustainable.

h1karu4• 12 years ago

You're right. If you've done open source work you know that of course there's a huge amount of space for personality conflicts to arise even when working remotely, but at least those personality conflicts are usually centered around differing views about the project vision or how best to implement it and not based around office politics having to do with who's dating who, who's drinking buddies with who, offline politics having to do with the developer's wives being friends and then no longer being friends (see github drama), etc etc.

I think that going to the office every day jobs are definitely healthier than sitting alone in front of your keyboard with no social contact at all slaving away on a codebase. You need a social life I'm just advising that for me it's nice to keep that social life completely decoupled from my financial situation, and that is really hard to do in a normal office environment.

donniezazen• 12 years ago

This has been a consistent topic on HN. I wonder if folks who suffer from anxiety have tried meditation as a cure. I highly recommend some stuff from www.osho.com .

pw• 12 years ago

This is poorly written and doesn't really have a point. How did it make it to the frontpage of HN?

hamidr3• 12 years ago

It made it there cause so many people like me have the same issues.

floody-berry4• 12 years ago

A discussion about the new VirginAmerica.com site is on the front page, as well as some SEO spam blog blather about ebay. At least this post is something people can (and do) identify with.

keithpeter• 12 years ago

I think the piece does have a point. The author suggests some approaches to anxiety and especially panic attacks that have helped him to work through the symptoms (both literally keep working and getting paid, and metaphorically go beyond and 'contain' the physiological symptoms).

I imagine that the reason the article is on the front page is that many here have experienced similar things.

pseudoanon• 12 years ago

I have suffered through debilitating anxiety and depression attacks (I call them attacks because they are finite) for most of my adult life. And my treatment, frankly, has been spotty, although clinical mental issues run in my family.

I can remember the first time I had one at the age of 22. I was traveling home from an internship in Silicon Valley. I'm now 40 and have been going through a significant episode. Most of my attacks occur around major life changes, or events I feel that I have no control over. I suspect many of us go into technology because the machine is an environment we can control, and many of us don't like (or can't cope with) being out of control of our environments.

My anxiety attacks have centered around:

- Fear of economic collapse

- Fear of personal financial collapse

- Fear of terminal health problem

- Fear of being alone

- Fear of not being able to provide for family (which prevented me from having one)

To name a few.

Wall Street maybe driven by fear and greed, but I am driven primarily by fear, and occasionally greed. But fear in many ways has treated me well, and has forced me to take action.

There are many situations in life where you are faced with a major decision for which there is no right or wrong answer (marriage, moving, changing jobs, buying a house, starting a company, etc.). Personally, and I suspect many of us are like this, I want to know what the right answer is. I'm frustrated that I cannot see the future. This frustration leads to a mental infinite loop which prevents me from functioning.

I don't think I have been treated properly for my problems. There are folks who I think have far less anxiety who get far more treatment. This might be because I have a fear of treatment.

So yeah, you aren't alone. It definitely sucks. But also doesn't have to prevent you from being successful, but I wish there was less stigma around it.

eng_monkey• 12 years ago

Which university can you get an engineering degree in PHP from?

chris_wot• 12 years ago

I think I exist under a constant background level of anxiety. It's distracting, off-putting, disturbing when it reaches a peak, and I have only recently found that by watching Star Trek videos online (escaping) that it goes away for these periods.

tootsweets• 12 years ago

I've created an account just to upvote you

linklet• 12 years ago

I was reading some veteran sucide report, which immediately reminds me about this post.

Programmers are like soldiers, fighting in the battle we didn't choose.

tom_jones• 12 years ago

Thanks, this was an interesting read and one I can identify with.

I think developers, anyone who writes software that really matters, are particularly susceptible. I’m not talking about someone who codes a pretty website for a small company, I’m talking about people working on core systems that people RELY on for things like accessing their money, security systems, and engine control systems in their car. These are the projects that will keep you up at night worrying about whether you left any bugs in the code.

The rub is that the general public have NO idea how thin the line is that these developers walk. If they do their job properly, thoroughly, then the product costs too much and nobody buys it. Or it misses time to market and the company slips behind its competitors.

The majority of code is pushed out in barely working state. That’s why we hear of problems like cars that suddenly stop on a freeway. If developers were given more time to finish their work, higher quality of code was prized over speed of development, then a whole industry would be less stressed and society would benefit as a whole. But everyone just wants the newest gadget faster and faster, and we are not patient.

specialist3• 12 years ago

I didn't realize I had problems with anxiety. I just thought it was insomnia, fear of death, normal over thinking stuff, recurring existential crisis.

I got my cortisol levels tested a few times. It was all out of whack. I did some stuff to calibrate it.

Now I'm ridiculously relaxed, easy going, more able to let go of bad thoughts, cheerful, etc.

I have no idea how or why this worked. But I like it.

pieterhg• 12 years ago

What did you do exactly to calibrate it? Exercise? Food?

specialist3• 12 years ago

I take one Cortisol Manager (and 3mg of melatonin) roughly 3 hours before bed time each night.

http://www.integrativepro.com/Products/Stress-Sleep-Manageme...

After a few months, I had my cortisol levels retested and it's now "normal", peaking in the morning instead of at night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol#Patterns

I went without for a week, just to see before v after. Seems to help.

Kabacaru• 12 years ago

This happened to me. It was related to work stuff, but also there were some things that made it worse (I'm transgender, and I hadn't started my transition at the time).

* It got so bad that twice I day I'd think I was having a heart attack.

* I wasn't sleeping (like not even a little bit) (I watched like all of Colombo during this time)

* Couldn't walk home without freaking out all the time (that person is staring at me, do they hate me, I don't even know them, are they following me, etc)

In the end I quit my job, and moved town, so I was lots closer to friends. This got me about half way to being normal. Later started my transition, which got rid of /so/ many issues, and got me more or less the rest of the way.

Looking back I wonder how I managed to live with my mind being that messed up.

A lot of people recommend getting medical help. However, just a warning, GPs (in the UK at least) aren't all brilliant with mental health. I got medical help for what I thought was heart attacks, and while my GP suggested it may be stress, they never recommended a therapist. (I have since been told that if you ask, you will get one though, I didn't really know to ask.)

The reason I wanted to post was to point out how it can creep up on you. I certainly didn't notice becoming more and more stressed out, I felt normal. It just felt like life was harder.

So watch out for the things you read in these posts, and be sure know that this can happen to you too.

dinkumthinkum• 12 years ago

Honestly, there are a myriad of ways to try to deal with this but I think for many of the things listed, I think you should probably stop caring so much. Having full on anxiety about drawing a paycheck but feeling you don't deserve it or something, just relax and think about yourself more than the morality of this. As far as bad code and needing to do a rewrite and your company not wanting to let you, at some point, if it is not your company, either look for a new position or stop caring about it so much, getting upset about it won't do you any good and if the executives in the company don't care that the code bad, maybe you shouldn't either.

Developer Anxiety, we’re not alone

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