How do you scale your web application?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=770254

by kenjin • 17 years ago

38 39 17 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Be it software techniques or off the shelf products what do you use to scale your web applications?

stelund• 17 years ago

Do the easy stuff first: 1. Enable caching & get the HTTP-headers with e-tags and stuff. 2. Get DB schema with proper indexes & tune database settings. 3. Buy better hardware where there are bottlenecks 4. Fix the software ;)

smokinn• 17 years ago

A point on 4: Find or, in very extreme circumstances, write your own very lightweight profiler you can run on production servers. This will be a life-saver.

The bottlenecks are very rarely where you think they are. Even when they are, there is typically lots of low hanging fruit hanging around that you don't know about until you profile.

Also, you should have some sort of monitoring software running aggregating stuff like server loads, connection stats, number of db requests, memcached hits/misses, etc. Cacti I find quite good for this.

mtw2• 17 years ago

I disagree with "buy better hardware" (unless you are thinking of just additional RAM or getting a SSD instead of a regualar hardware)

imho you need to design with horizontal scaling in mind

staunch• 17 years ago

The idea that everyone needs to scale horizontally has become very much less true than it was. Only Very Large sites have to go very horizontal at all these days.

Given 8 x 3Ghz core / 32GB / 5TB machines for cheap you're packing as much power as 15+ servers of a few years ago. Even quite large web sites can be run off a few beefy (but cheap!) servers. This means money saved on network infrastructure, power, space, management, etc.

Probably 80% of the Alexa top 1000 could each be run off less than 20 modern beefy machines.

cominatchu• 17 years ago

After the easy stuff: move your database to its own server, add a load balancer in front of additional web servers, implement memcached, start splicing your database to multiple servers, continue to add web servers, serve your static files from a cdn

mtw2• 17 years ago

also

1. caching is your friend

2. you probably need 2 load balancer (instead of 1) for high availability

3. probably need a SAN or shared storage somewhere when you have several web servers

trader• 17 years ago

baller

aik• 17 years ago

What would be the first thing you do? All that adds up...

slig• 17 years ago

first thing to do, IMO: Add more RAM

njharman2• 17 years ago

Depends on your app, but...

Split static content serving from dynamic. Can start off on same server but requirements for each are so different it pays to have tuned processes serving each.

Build customized, svelt apache or use nginx.

Get separate DB server, get lots mem for DB server, tune DB to use that memory. Few/None are setup up out of box to use 4-8GB+ well.

Get more mem for http box(es), use memcache/similar to take advantage of that memory.

matttah• 17 years ago

I'd suggest implementing memcached before adding a second DB server, often this can help in scaling incredible amounts. We had an application which as soon as we implemented memcached(we really should have off the bat) the load was cut over 1/2. Of course this was an extreme example since the server was getting pounded with tons of reads from our DB every second.

cjbos2• 17 years ago

Before adding the load balancer make sure you stress test your app to know where the bottleneck is (CPU, memory, disk, network etc). See if you can't double your throughput by some cheap upgrades e.g. if you are CPU bound on a single core, you'll buy yourself some breathing space by upgrading to dual or quad core processors. If you are CPU bound but have loads of free memory consider caching expensive queries in RAM for a few seconds.

I only point this out, as load balancers and additional servers can be expensive.

Maro• 17 years ago

Check out:

http://highscalability.com/

About 20-30% of stuff posted there is worth reading, which is pretty good =)

zackola• 17 years ago

Ah caching, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.

jsonscripter2• 17 years ago

There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things.

-Phil Karlton

lrajlich• 17 years ago

Not all caches have the cache invalidation problem that Karlton is referring to (memcache doesn't). He was talking about invalidation of multiple copies of an object in a cache.

danspam• 17 years ago

A very broad question. The answer for most people is yes, all of those.

kimovski2• 17 years ago

We scale Streamfile.com with Erlang. Both front & back-end.

Check out:

http://www.erlang-web.org/

davidw• 17 years ago

Adding lots of application servers isn't the hard part, generally (from what I've read... I have to admit I've never had to do more than the 'easy stuff'). The database is. How's Mnesia scale up? Where does it work well, and where does it not work so well?

kimovski2• 17 years ago

If you find it difficult to scale up databases, try looking at CouchDB instead http://couchdb.apache.org/index.html

imp• 17 years ago

Up (in the short-term)

coderholic• 17 years ago

Check out this presentation, it includes almost everything you need to know about scaling: http://www.coderholic.com/the-ultimate-scalability-presentat...

thenduks• 17 years ago

Generally we stick with caching, when that starts to give diminishing returns we add a web server. Database stuff is quite a bit harder, of course, we're been fortunate there so far :)

aditya• 17 years ago

Mini-guide to scaling your app:

Step 1. Measure, measure, measure: response time, page load time, query time

Step 2. Identify bottlenecks: Why isn't your page load snappy? Too much JS? Round-trip to DB is killing you? Your mongrels are overloaded?

Tip: Use YSlow for frontend measurements and take most of its advice

Step 3. Fix bottlenecks: Lots of techniques to fix faster frontend performance, start with YSlow above. Architectural and backend issues can be solved with a combination of hardware (load balancers, more web boxes, more db boxes) and software (better caching strategies, evolve your DB architecture, break up your application into smaller micro-apps that scale independently)

Step 4: Go to step 1 and keep at it.

I'd have to say that if you're not doing Step 1, you're going to fail now, or eventually. As one of my first mentors taught me:

"You cannot improve, what you don't measure"

njharman2• 17 years ago

Most the stuff you mention is about performance, not scaling. It's (mostly) good advice but doesn't address the original question at all.

anamax• 17 years ago

Get traffic. Traffic brings money. Money buys stuff and people and you can make scaling their problem.

Without traffic, there's no point in scaling.

LostInTheWoods• 17 years ago

Scaling on the cheap:

1. Host all your static files (images,css,js) on Google App Engine

2. Avoid hitting your database. Cache everything possible.

mmt2• 17 years ago

Taken to its logical extreme, the cache becomes "your database," in which case you didn't need, for example, an RDBMS in the first place.

nebula• 17 years ago

What are the effective strategies to use when the bottleneck is disk I/O? We have memcached to cache data that is frequently accessed. However our usage pattern is such that repeated access of data in a short span of time is rare.

mmt2• 17 years ago

Max out the I/O capacity on your existing server:

At the very least, make sure each system bus (i.e. PCIe/PCI-X for commodity x86) slot is populated with a host adapter (ideally a hardware RAID controller) which can saturate that slot.

For each host adapter, ensure that each port has enough disks behind it that, even with worst-case contention (not fully-random, unless you've somehow managed to magically induce 512-byte transfers), they can saturate the the upstream system bus, even after RAID processing is done by the adapter.

After that, upgrade to a server with more slots and repeat the saturation.

Repeat once more for the largest single server available, while starting the project to implement (perhaps write from scratch) a distributed database.

I have yet to see anyone make even a concerted effort on the first step, instead skipping to the second part of the last step, probably because that appears, at first glance, to require only a Small Matter Of Programming.

bensummers2• 17 years ago

Design it well in the first place!

Here's something I recently wrote about speed and web apps: http://bens.me.uk/2009/fast-web-applications

jackowayed• 17 years ago

Designing it well doesn't mean that you won't have to scale eventually (unless you stop growing.)

bensummers2• 17 years ago

Agreed, but not doing silly things is a pretty good start to the process of scaling.

peterwwillis2• 17 years ago

horizontally (keep adding cache and load balancers/proxies). all you have to do is keep making more profits and keep buying more hardware into infinity.

sure, one day you'll have to build a nuclear reactor and tap a dam to provide all the power and cooling for the datacenter space, but it's easier than a redesign.

peterwwillis2• 17 years ago

(by the way, i wasn't being sarcastic. that's how we scale our web applications. we just haven't gotten big enough to need the reactor yet)

radu_floricica• 17 years ago

Measure and optimize. I write pretty careless code, as far as optimization goes, so first round is actually adding indexes to the database. I know what you want to say, I should do this from the start, right? But then I'd end up with a bunch of useless indexes who eat up update times and space.

Second step is usually cache - local, in-application cache. It's pretty much auto-pilot now, writing a cache function.

Cache helps, but not as much as you'd think. When it gets serious though it's still useful because its shape makes it easy to go to step three: mix the cache with a bit of refactoring. This can mean simply pre-fetching: there is a huge difference from doing 20 "select * from order_items where id=xxx" and just one "select * from order_items where order=yyy". And with the cache in place it usually means only a few extra lines of code. (This example is for building reports, not for displaying orders. I'm not that of an idiot to get each order_item separately).

If things get heavy refactoring can go as far as breaking the abstractions in place. Last month I squeezed an extra second by sending to the browser a big table in batches, while I was computing it. Not something I want to do every day, but occasionally it's fun.

This is also the step when I usually realize I made a stupid mistake along the way which caused the delay.

The only problem I met which was mostly impervious to this was a design decision. In one app I decided (as I usually do) to compute stuff like balances and debts on-the-fly. It usually (well, always) is a good idea, because any intermediary result is a source for bugs. But this particular app grew rather unexpectedly large, with the result that computing an overall balance takes 3-10 seconds. It's not a huge problem for the client, but my pride suffers. I'm still looking into this one - I think some refactoring may make it ok.

How do you scale your web application?

Related Stories