Vkontakte Founder Flees Russia

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/vkontakte-founder-flees-russia-claims-persecution/498715.html

by azov • 12 years ago

218 102 12 years ago

calcsam• 12 years ago

Here's to wishing Snowden had asked Putin about this, rather than giving him political cover to orchestrate it...

jnbiche• 12 years ago

And lose literally his last place of refuge capable of withstanding U.S. demands in the world? If he pisses Russia off, he's either in a Russian jail (horrible) or in US hands (possibly equally horrible). Why do you want this? Has he not sacrificed enough of his life?

Almost everyone, Russians most of all, know that Russia conducts fearsome mass surveillance of its own population. It was Snowden's revelations about the capabilities and intentions of the U.S. that came as a big surprise to many, and so were most needed.

cvbncvbncgbc• 12 years ago

He actually did ask a question directly to Putin( I must admit he has guts ) that is relevant to this debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1yH554emkY

us0r• 12 years ago

I'd argue the US would be worse. At least in the Russian jail he could bribe some decent meals.

jsumrall• 12 years ago

I'm not sure how to articulate it, but I find it immensely interesting that Snowden fled to Russia, while Pavel is fleeing from Russia, both for issues within similar realms.

JasonFruit• 12 years ago

It's not that surprising that people who disagree with their own government would flee to the protection of another, or that the destination government would play it for political advantage.

DangerousPie• 12 years ago

Similar realms maybe, but I still think there is a huge difference between exposing your country's secret service operations and running a popular website. The fact that the former gets you into legal trouble is expected. The fact that the latter does is very concerning.

scotty792• 12 years ago

He got in trouble for refusal to turn his company into goverment surveillance device. Much like the ones Snowden exposed so there's some symmetry between those situations albeit not obvious one.

id• 12 years ago

Running Vkontakte in the US would get you into huge legal trouble, considering how many movies and music albums are hosted there without permission. And I think you would be required to share users’ personal data with US law enforcement agencies just as much.

melling• 12 years ago

What's so hard to understand? Hacker News has a lot of naive people who have no idea how the world works.

Hey, the 80's called, and if you were born during or after, it's probably time to ask what you don't understand.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/03/...

rosser• 12 years ago

You aren't exactly wrong, but being smug about it doesn't make for productive discourse.

arjie• 12 years ago

Enemy of my enemy and all that. Seems logical to me. Unfortunately, no western nation would protect Snowden.

By the way, you seem to have triple posted.

mverwijs2• 12 years ago

This is factually incorrect. Snowden stranded in Russia. He had a ticket for Cuba where intended to transfer to Bolivia(?). Either way: not Russia.

raverbashing• 12 years ago

Yeah, but I don't think his current visa was given out "of the goodness of their hearts"

finspin• 12 years ago

Snowden didn't flee to Russia. He was on his way to South America, transiting through Russia, when the USA revoked his passport, forcing him to stay in Russia.

krick4• 12 years ago

It's only natural to hide from somebody on his (I don't want to use the word "foe", but I can't find anything better) foe's territory.

…That's only to be fair, but I'm not sure they have issues in similar realms. I don't deny it, but I'm not sure. While Snowden is some "justice warrior" fighting over the idea who is obviously not welcome in the USA, Durov is much more prosaic person. I mean, he may have some ideas and moral principles he can't neglect, but he is a businessman, clever guy prone to dramatic performances and, honestly, quite a weasel himself. And it's not even clear if he has reasons to be hated by some secret sovernment agents or something as Snowden is. He is not an owner and not even an employee of Vk anymore. He does't claim to know some government secrets or anything. And while it's possible (likely, actually) that he was forced to get rid of stocks, his company wasn't really "taken" from him. I mean, he sold it, he got his money, he didn't suddenly disappear and wasn't taken to jail like Khodorkovsky, when there possibly were reasons for that. And now he has nothing to do with Vk, and there're claims that he wasn't even forced to quit. Weird, huh.

So I'd say there's quite a probability of that thing being just another spectacle.

RivieraKid• 12 years ago

It's pretty simple actually. Russia is one of the few countries that aren't willing to extradict Snowden to the US and are able to resist pressure to do so.

mcv• 12 years ago

Snowden is obviously not in Russia because they value free speech and privacy so much there. He's there because he's safe from the US, and because Putin likes messing with the US. As soon as Putin's interests change, Snowden isn't safe anymore.

tokenadult• 12 years ago

Several comments at the same comment level as this comment seem to take seriously the assertion that Snowden only incidentally ended up in Russia. In fact, his route from Hawaii to Hong Kong (a territory controlled by the central government of China) and then on to Russia looks very suspicious to readers who know what airline flights connected at that time of year from Hawaii to other places. Moreover, Snowden had contact with agents of the Russian government while he was still in Hong Kong[1], after he left his hotel there. From the beginning, as a person who has traveled to Hong Kong (and, for that matter, to Hawaii) before, I have been puzzled by his choice of air routes.

[1] http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2013/11/01/edwar...

mzs• 12 years ago

Hong Kong was a good choice. It does not extradite to US or many countries friendly with US and has a slow moving legal system that is relatively independent compared to other options that meet the first criteria. It gave him a relatively safe place and time.

MisterWebz• 12 years ago

Maybe my reading comprehension is failing me, but where exactly does the article say Snowden had contact with agents of the Russian government while he was still in Hong Kong?

informatimago• 12 years ago

The point is that there's no place to flee to!

All oligarchs, all politicians, all countries are the same. This is prison planet, and nobody of memory has escaped yet ever.

(The fight against free energy is not so much as to keep the oil oligarchs powerful, as to prevent people to flee out of the planet).

broflosup• 12 years ago

He made $260 million in Russia creating a copy of Facebook. He sold his shares and resigned.

But wait, he didn't _really_ resign. No, it was all an April fools joke! The investors didn't buy it and fired him.

He claims the site is now under the control of Kremlin because one of its shareholders is Alisher Usmanov, an alleged ally of Putin. Yet, that guy was a shareholder for awhile now and Durov never complained about him.

I don't know. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Sounds like someone is trying to stay relevant by creating controversy and generating hype for a new messaging system that's supposed to protect you from government's eyes.

codecondo• 12 years ago

I think you just helped to generate an extra 50% of the hype they're after.

domdip• 12 years ago

As far as business in Russia goes, this sounds like a fairly normal course of events. Almost every large company has someone Putin-connected at the top, and when the Kremlin wants more control that's how they exercise it. (Either that, or corrupt court judgments that directly change corporate control.)

Don't be surprised if there are a rash of allegations of corruption, embezzlement, etc., against Durov. The sad thing about Russia is that they could be true, they could be part of a conspiracy against Durov, or both. You'll never know.

17Crash• 12 years ago

"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

- Winston Churchill

Volscio• 12 years ago

I was hoping to see these comments more prevalent in the hackernews thread. The story struck me at first as being interesting but then it seems like there's more murkiness involved and it's not an open-and-shut case. Not that the veracity of this passage is great, but seriously I was hoping for more of a critical eye on the story:

"United Capital Partners, a private company registered in Moscow that owns 48 percent of Vkontakte, disputed Durov's statements on Tuesday, saying he had been seeking to “politicize the situation” because there were “serious legal claims” against him and he was suspected of embezzlement."

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/vkontakte-founder...

scotty792• 12 years ago

Are you sure he didn't create copy of MySpace?

RomanPushkin5• 12 years ago

PAVEL DUROV'S 7 REASONS TO STAY IN RUSSIA (12 March 2014)

http://rusbase.com/news/author/benhopkins/not-going-anywhere...

buildbro• 12 years ago

That whole blog post stinks of propaganda

RomanPushkin5• 12 years ago

Link to russian version on Pavel's personal page: http://vk.com/id1?w=wall1_45616

Nobody was forcing him to write this. It is exactly what he thinks about Russia.

PS But sometimes people can change their opinion in a month :)

nnq• 12 years ago

This source (11 March VK post, 12 March rusbase article) is older than the article (Apr 22).

RomanPushkin5• 12 years ago

Older, but what?

All of the benefits of Russia have disappeared within a month?

trekky1700• 12 years ago

That is hilarious.

acqq• 12 years ago

Imagine Zuckerberg selling his Facebook shares, then claiming to flee from USA for not willing to give the data from the Facebook to the FBI. Which of course Facebook (just like any other competitor like Google and Microsoft) gives since it's all regulated by the law:

https://www.facebook.com/about/government_requests

Disclaimer: I don't know how much Durov actually sold. Any additional info welcome.

krick4• 12 years ago

The last time it was 12% (which is all he had of Vk stocks). There's no info of money amount involved, but I susoect if it was something ridiculously small we'd hear about that already from Durov himself, and estimate of how much it was worth is $M300-400.

GuiA• 12 years ago

In a dictatorship, if the ones holding power want to take control of an internet company holding data about the personal lives of hundreds of millions of people, they do so by ousting the CEO and taking control the hard way.

In a democracy with a free market, if the ones holding power want to take control of an internet company which holds data about the personal lives of hundreds of millions of people, they do so by strategically adding members to the company's board who are part of the oligarchy in place.

Putin's Russia still has a lot to learn! :')

aaronem11• 12 years ago

You're not wrong, precisely, but the former method has the virtues of simplicity, forthrightness, and the presentation of a salutary example to others who might find themselves in a similar position.

Also, people from the West have been telling Russians that Russia has a lot to learn at least since the fall of the Soviet regime, if not since the days of the tsars. Some who've given such advice have done so out of good intentions. Others did so with malice aforethought, and have brought about considerable grief in so doing, as for example during the post-Soviet interregnum, when Yeltsin let himself be swindled out of a huge fraction of his country's wealth to the enormous detriment of the Russian people -- I've seen estimates of premature and unnecessary deaths thus caused which range into the low to middle seven figures.

Part of the reason why Putin enjoys such wide approval in the nation he governs is because he's not particularly inclined to listen to Westerners bearing gifts, whatever their intentions in so doing may be.

piokuc6• 12 years ago

This sounds like shit, Putin-ordered propaganda to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades. HN is not free from this, apparently.

RobAley• 12 years ago

For those that don't get the implied reference in the second scenario, I believe it is a (fairly accurate) reference to Dropbox/Rice.

ipsin• 12 years ago

In both cases, the ones holding power gain access to the data through "lawful" secret requests. You don't need to control the company to exercise control over the company.

krick4• 12 years ago

Do I understand correctly that you're implying that case with "dictatorship" is in place? If so, you are obviously wrong. Good example of "the hard way" was notorious Yukos' case, which is drastically different from this one. Mail.Ru have a good share in stocks for the long time and that's a matter for discussion I won't participate in, if they can be considered to be "part of the oligarchy in place" (they can). UCP has the rest of the stocks, which belonged to different people the last year. Durov had only 12% for quite a long time already. And Durov himself is alive and well and left Russia only after getting rid of Vk completely, and some say he wasn't even fired (they say that he wrote retirement letter on 23.03 already, and never revoked it; Durov claims otherwise; where's the truth remains to be unknown).

crazygringo• 12 years ago

they do so by strategically adding members to the company's board who are part of the oligarchy in place

Seriously? I'd like you to back that up. Because honestly, that's just baseless conspiracy-mongering.

I understand people don't like Rice joining Dropbox (which is what I presume you're referring to) due to her political history and leadership role in the Iraq war -- which is totally understandable, since she's a public figure with strong political associations.

But anyone suggesting that her joining Dropbox is not in order to help their international/governmental expansion (which makes perfect business sense), but is rather part of a nefarious secret plot to undermine the privacy of Dropbox users, really has to show at least a shred of evidence for it.

And implying that the level of freedom, or rule of law, in American society is somehow comparable to the level in Russian society, shows a tremendous amount of naiveté. American government certainly isn't perfect, but it's worlds apart from Russia's.

BetterLateThan• 12 years ago

The problem with the West is that you guys _believe_ the law to be the same for those at the top and at the bottom of the pyramid.

Russians, on the contrary, _know_ that equality belongs on the same bookshelf with unicorns. That the government does not work the way the government tells kids it works.

Let me be blunt: To be a seriously profitable business in 2014 you must sleep with the government.

Those who disagree retire early. Ask PrivacyHarbor.com or that other more famous email provider who had to quit.

Let me be blunter: The public's Kardashian-Oprah-Fox-Oscar-elections megatrip must not be disturbed by the reports of how things actually work. There is simply no need for us to know, because today we can't legally act on this knowledge.

If history teaches us anything, you will agree with me very soon - but in retrospect[1]. The lines are being drawn as we speak.

As for Dropbox proper, they are wisely killing 2 birds with 1 Rice — demonstrating obedience to the ruling class and sending a clear signal to potential customers: "Choose us if you want to stay in business. We are on the right side.".

------------

1 - I am fully aware that you have no idea what I am talking about. It comes from experience, which you are only about to gain.

fit2rule• 12 years ago

I think the pushback about Rices' appointment is more due to the fact that she's a war criminal with the blood of innocents on her hands.

What company wants that in their board?

buzaga41• 12 years ago

Doesn't say where/how Russia was doing/trying an illegal move...

barce• 12 years ago

Facebook will be more than happy to get a piece of VK's users.

kome• 12 years ago

Who tried VK, will never go back to Facebook. VK is like the wild west of the web: you find everything for free, from music, to software, porn, books, etc.

Facebook is a prudish and mildly authoritarian walled garden. VK smells like freedom. ;)

krick4• 12 years ago

Smelled, you mean. I'm not saying that all good of Vk was due to Durov, but things are obviously getting more complicated slowly since Mail.Ru group rules it. It can get even worse.

Grue3• 12 years ago

You can find all these things on Piratebay. Tying all these illegal activities to your social network is highly idiotic.

taco_john• 12 years ago

So does anyone have a recap of this chain of events?

From the last time I heard about this, it sounded like he was bullied into selling his shares to one of Putin's buddies, and stepping down. Then he said he would like to stay in Russia, now he's fleeing?

theorique• 12 years ago

Maybe the US and Russia could do a prisoner swap - Snowden for Durov?

wil421• 12 years ago

I wonder what kind of role the US had in helping aid the Ukraine revolution? or what role they will have now that its going to be another west vs Russia/Putin showdown.

vitorbaptistaa• 12 years ago

Anyone knows how this affects Telegram?

nomailing• 12 years ago

I also would like to know that. it is the only real end-to-end encrypted whatsapp alternative. I hope it stays that way.

codesuela3• 12 years ago

you shouldnt trust closed source software also there are numerous complaints about their security model. See http://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams-crypta... for example. Why not use an open source, cross device alternative? https://www.surespot.me/

teawithcarl• 12 years ago

Why has this aritcle (124 points, in 1 hour) only 15th on HN?

Who is flagging this?

Vkontakte is larger than Facebook in Russia, and the CEO has to flee due to ugly pressure. This isn't germane technology news?

piokuc6• 12 years ago

Interesting, indeed. The article was on the very top a couple of hours ago...

saraid216• 12 years ago

Vkontakte is larger than Facebook in Russia, and the CEO has to flee due to ugly pressure. This isn't germane technology news?

Odd. You have successfully convinced me to flag this, whereas I hadn't before.

dang4• 12 years ago

Users are flagging it and moderators applied a penalty. This is standard practice. The only question is whether it should be on the front page at all, given the predictably low quality of the thread.

It's not a question of it being off-topic. It's a question of it spurring shallow discussion that is high on agitation (noise) and low on reflection (signal). Consider the distinguishing features of the thread:

(1) A top comment that has no substance and is merely an internet witticism to fire up the crowd;

(2) A person attempting to contribute substantively accused of being a propagandist for Putin;

(3) A predictable Snowden argument whose only connection to the story is "Russia".

terminado2• 12 years ago

Given that the name of this site is "Hacker News" and not "Hacker Threads", one would expect high quality news items to bubble to the top of the main list, and not necessarily high-quality discussions.

You might want to reconsider the premise of flagging topics in order to facilitate ease of topic moderation. There's more to this site than merely the user discussion.

Are there any metrics that distinguish the ratio of active thread participants, versus quiet lurkers, versus users that seldom view the HN thread at all, and only look at the lists?

On a busy day at work, I'll check the RSS feed frequently, but rarely bother with HN proper. In short, this means if an article doesn't make it into the top 30 list, a (possibly-not-insignificant) portion your user base (myself included) might be effectively disinformed of the topic.

That's kind of important.

ChrisNorstrom• 12 years ago

Fun Question:

Would any of you consider implementing a last-resort "self destruct system" into your startup? One that completely and totally obliterates all data (writing random data to all discs), causes massive amounts of destruction to the company, permanently dumps databases, deletes all profiles, and sabotages everything you've ever worked for. You might answer this question differently depending on what part of the world you're from. Overall, having a way to instantly invoke "if I can't have it you can't either" might come in handy when dealing with oppressive governments.

codesuela3• 12 years ago

how much of Facebook can you zero out before a sysadmin detects it? Probably not enough to matter, especially if there are backups which would lead to a headache for the Ops team but not much more.

contingencies• 12 years ago

Before scuffing at Russia as a dictatorship, let's get real here. Which domestically-based, major internet businesses holding vast swathes of social network data are run by foreigners in any of two other key national markets: China and the US?

Well, can anyone name a single one? No? Aside from AMDOCS, which seems to have jumped ship to the US to spruce up its image, or perhaps to a limited extent (versus China Unipay's domestic, now regional, and increasingly global settlement network) Mastercard/Visa and SWIFT (for international settlements only) in China, I can't. Don't forget what happened to Google in China, and how Schmidt and his political buddy then turned around and visited that great bastion of human rights, North Korea, in a transparent snub to China. Don't forget how Microsoft's Skype hands over surveillance keys for its users' private communications to the Chinese government as a market entry strategy.

Politics (control) and business (profit) really have self-organized in to a transnational network of mutual back-scratching oligopolies the world over. Here in China, domestic alternatives to global networks are encouraged (largely by limiting international bandwidth, more rarely by outright censorship) to maximise state opportunities for control and surveillance. Russia seems the same. Perhaps it's time to re-read the preface to Cypherpunks... http://cryptome.org/2012/12/assange-crypto-arms.htm

The world is not sliding, but galloping into a new transnational dystopia. This development has not been properly recognized outside of national security circles. It has been hidden by secrecy, complexity and scale. The internet, our greatest tool of emancipation, has been transformed into the most dangerous facilitator of totalitarianism we have ever seen. The internet is a threat to human civilization.

These transformations have come about silently, because those who know what is going on work in the global surveillance industry and have no incentives to speak out. Left to its own trajectory, within a few years, global civilization will be a postmodern surveillance dystopia, from which escape for all but the most skilled individuals will be impossible. In fact, we may already be there.

Recall that states are the systems which determine where and how coercive force is consistently applied.

The question of how much coercive force can seep into the platonic realm of the internet from the physical world is answered by cryptography and the cypherpunks’ ideals.

As states merge with the internet and the future of our civilization becomes the future of the internet, we must redefine force relations.

If we do not, the universality of the internet will merge global humanity into one giant grid of mass surveillance and mass control.

The sad thing is, as hyperbolic as this can sound to the uninitiated, it's reality.

Vkontakte Founder Flees Russia

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