Is US Chief Information Officer Vivek Kundra a Phony?

http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2009/08/12/special-report-is-us-chief-information-officer-cio-vivek-kundra-a-phony/

by chanux • 17 years ago

157 88 17 years ago

tokenadult5• 17 years ago

"This is the sort of question you might ask after trying to actually verify his supposed MS in Information Technology from the University of Maryland, College Park campus. The registrar has no record of it.

"I have already queried the White House concerning this and have heard nothing back."

Wow. This looks like a total muff in checking the background of quite an important (supposedly) government official. How many more errors of background checking like that have happened?

jpwagner5• 17 years ago

Multiple appointments had tax evasion issues. This type of thing seems fairly common, which is of course horrifying.

eli8• 17 years ago

They weren't especially serious lapses, if I recall.

I think it's that a large number of people have, at some point in their life, fudged on their taxes. I'm not sure we should be surprised that this is the case in a few appointments out of hundreds.

bilbo0s• 17 years ago

OK.

Let's be clear how big this particular one is.

If you take any user on HN, and send an 2 or 3 IRS accountants pouring over their tax records for 3 or 4 weeks, they will turn up something. So tax issues I can see, if they were mistakes, and the person owns up to them and pays the back due taxes. That is the kind of investigation you WANT your public officials to undergo. And yes, given a byzantine tax regime, mistakes SHOULD be common. In fact, the guy to look closer at is the one who has 30 years worth of perfect tax paperwork.

This is a different thing altogether. It SEEMS . . . I'm not saying this is the case . . . but it SEEMS that these guys were not even checked out. That, in my view, should be actionable. Why were they put in their positions, leadership ability? intelligence? because they are minorities? what?

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because the inconsistencies outlined in the article are of the sort that lead reasonable men to question a candidates integrity. I have no problem giving a guy a shot in my company if he only has a high school diploma. Got a criminal record and you're trying to get your life back on track? Hell, let's see if we can help each other. But I will not countenance a liar, no matter how well qualified.

Consider that if they are liars, then these two are supremely unqualified. My decision becomes easy . . . IF they are liars. Which I am not prepared to say they are on the basis of this article alone.

As an aside, I would like to address the whole issue brought up in the article's comments of academic credential exaggeration being a 'cultural' issue in India.

That's fine, but this is the United States. As a younger man I attended lots of government sponsored "leadership" courses in the armpit of the East Coast, a place called Quantico. The first time I ever went to Quantico was for Platoon Leader's Class for the United States Marine Corps. I learned the first day about what was expected of me as a leader in the United States. ANY integrity violation, (lie, cheat, or steal), and you would be gone. But nothing else could get you thrown out! Yep, that drunken brawl with those Navy Academy pricks at the bar in DC, not a problem. Just don't lie about it. Was that you at that strip club during last weekend's leave? Yes Sgt. Instructor, but did you see the girl? Just don't lie. Point of the story, they didn't make exception for the Japanese guys, or the black guys, or the latinos because of any "cultural issues" those guys may have had. Enough said on that I think.

tokenadult5• 17 years ago

One response to Dvorak's post, disagreeing with his conclusion:

http://techinsider.nextgov.com/2009/08/on_kundras_college_re...

tptacek8• 17 years ago

And of course, it turns out that what looks like a total muff in checking Kundra's background is just par-for-the-course negligent linkbait from Dvorak:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758857

brown9-2• 17 years ago

Is it really possible for a regular citizen to check with a university to find out what degree(s) someone has been awarded, or even their attendence record?

Is this something a registrar will divulge to just anyone? Or do the screenshots of the University of Maryland's registration application imply that someone on the inside checked into this for Dvorak?

xlamnfoqp• 17 years ago

anyone can check degrees with just a phone call, try it out right now

dschobel2• 17 years ago

Universities publish degree announcements by the tens of thousands for commencement and often on their websites so I don't think it's a closely-held secret.

tokenadult5• 17 years ago

Yes, universities make this information easy to check, because not exposing liars about degrees damages the value of each degree.

patio11• 17 years ago

The National Student Clearinghouse collects this information and makes it available to anyone with a credit card about about $5 ~ $8 to spend.

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/secure_area/DegreeVerify...

eli8• 17 years ago

But something tells me that if their search doesn't turn up a degree, that isn't proof that you didn't get one.

RK• 17 years ago

Usually it's very difficult to get a university to confirm if someone is a current student (of course it's often easy to just look in the online directory). For graduation lists, usually the student has to explicitly opt out of having their name included.

dschobel2• 17 years ago

With the amount of legit tech people in Obama's orbit this is seriously disappointing. Even if his credentials are authentic (TBD!), they're really underwhelming.

raheemm• 17 years ago

These are really troubling assertions. However, I went over and took a look at data.gov, which is the first project under the fed CTO's office and it is really impressive. I am troubled and impressed. Regardless, Vivek Kundra should address the points brought up in this blog.

edw5195• 17 years ago

I have mixed feelings upon reading this.

On one hand I want to say Thank you, John, for the kind of muchraking we need now more than ever. I sure hope this goes somewhere.

On the other hand, I have no problem busting my butt for thousands in hopes of millions. Until I realize how dishonest posers steal the key to billions without doing any work at all.

Knowing that this sort of thing goes on all the time doesn't diminish the anger that comes from reading about it.

luigi4• 17 years ago

Why do you trust Dvorak on this? He said that cable modems would never happen:

http://web.archive.org/web/19970415081814/http://www.pcmag.c...

He doesn't understand what the System Idle Process is:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000873.html

Why do you believe Dvorak but not the guy who was vetted by a presidential administration?

jdminhbg3• 17 years ago

I'm not really sure what the System Idle Process has to do with made-up degrees and companies.

tokenadult5• 17 years ago

He said that cable modems would never happen

I remember that, and I smile about that prediction as I use my cable modem to access the Internet, but I count his technical objection as prescient when I experience local modem pool latency here. Cable modems are a kluge, not a sound technical solution to broadband at home.

edw5195• 17 years ago

Why do you believe Dvorak but not the guy who was vetted by a presidential administration?

Fair question.

1. OP was well written and seemed well supported. If he's wrong about the degrees, then he's wrong and so am I. We'll find out soon enough.

2. "Attack the messenger" is a last resort tactic used when you don't know how to "attack the content". It doesn't work with me.

3. I believe that the vetting is strictly for political purposes, not for achievement or better use of taxpayer dollars. At least Dvorak earned his own way instead of sucking at the federal teat that I help fund. That gets him a little extra cred from me.

socratees• 17 years ago

Vivek Kundra should definitively address these allegations.

kakal• 17 years ago

I agree with an prior poster. Kundra's credentials, even if not phony, are terribly underwhelming. Why on earth did the Obama administration not choose from among the tens of people in the US who are much more recognized and accomplished ?

eli8• 17 years ago

I'm personally pretty indifferent to him, but I know Kundra is well respected here in DC. He did visibly good work with the DC government websites.

Check out the list of available data feeds: http://data.octo.dc.gov/ Most cities and states still keep this sort of public data in a filing cabinet in the basement.

I find it surprising that so many Hacker News readers are focusing on his (lack) of academic degrees rather than his real-world experience.

plinkplonk4• 17 years ago

"I find it surprising that so many Hacker News readers are focusing on his (lack) of academic degrees rather than his real-world experience."

I think the question is more one of "Did he lie about his degrees?" (having a degree in psych vs having one in CS for example). The issue is with the lying/fudging (if the accusations are true, yet to be established) not having the degree or not. If Dvorak is making factual errors that is easy enough to disprove.

That said, for public posts (vs, say a startup), it may be difficult to justify (politically, and this is a political appointment) why someone occupies a CIO post without a degree in CS.

due disclosure: I say this as a non US citizen. I don't really care one way or another, but if true, this might be another incident where the manstream media didn't do its job and got trumped by a blogger even someone as, errr, quirky, as Dvorak. If not true Dvorak will take his lumps. I suspect that all it would take is a couple of phone calls by a real journalist to clear this up.

ATB• 17 years ago

"I find it surprising that so many Hacker News readers are focusing on his (lack) of academic degrees"

The focus of the linked article is not his (lack) of academic degrees, but rather a pattern of lying about his degrees and achievements, later redacted. The article also tries to track his real-world experience, which appears similarly underwhelming based on the data dug up by the author.

jpwagner5• 17 years ago

What real-world experience? Wasn't that part of the point?

That website is about as ugly as a manatee in fishnet stockings...

mrshoe• 17 years ago

I'm sorry, but that web site looks absolutely horrible. Can the nation's CTO not be held to the same standards to which we hold "Review my startup" posters on HN every day? Certainly his budget is many orders of magnitude larger.

Of all the incredibly smart and successful technologists in the US, I find it very hard to understand why this guy was chosen.

a-person• 17 years ago

underwhelming? By whose standards...yours? Sounds to me like professional envy. Why can't you accept the fact that it takes ALL kinds to make a world? In Vivek Kundra's case, he demonstrated that a UMUC graduate is very capable of rising to the top of his professional game. How 'bout you?

As for lying...? The only phonies in this story are people that gloss over Vivek Kundra's exceptional real-world work experience. Excuse me...but Kundra WAS the CIO in the DC Government and Virgina. Therefore, he has way more experience than anyone here attempting to "judge" his qualifications. You couldn't even come close to having that type of experience...degree or no degree.

Again...you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself.

bitwize• 17 years ago

Where was the mainstream media? Where was the right wing media?

Those two are different?

pyre• 17 years ago

I think you'll find that a lot of right-wingers call it the 'liberal media' and that a lot of left-wingers call it the 'conservative media' that is 'in bed with the White House.' Which is true? I wonder.

qeorge2• 17 years ago

The potentially bogus credentials are disturbing, but I'm not ready to jump on this ship yet. IMHO, this article is poorly written, and reveals how little the author knows about the subject matter. For instance:

"What websites costs $18 million? And that's with no warrantee.

The incredibly popular Digg.com, one of the most advanced news gathering sites in the world was initially coded from scratch for between $1200-2500 according to one of its founders."

This is a ridiculous comparison. We've already discussed this on Hacker News ad nauseam.

Let's wait for more information before jumping to any conclusions.

batasrki• 17 years ago

I agree. Digg may have started with a small amount of money, but they keep raising VC funds, in the millions, to keep it running.

This is Dvorak at his best, link-baiting, self.

marcusestes• 17 years ago

Far too little credit is paid in that article to Mr. Kundra's unsurpassed work to provide the citizens of D.C. with the best public data feeds of any city on the country:

http://data.octo.dc.gov/

I believe he was hired to manage a similar initiative at the federal level. I heard him speak at a gov 2.0 convention in Portland, OR, and I was deeply impressed with both him and the program.

luigi4• 17 years ago

NextGov has called the University of Maryland and verified that he did receive an M.S. in Information Systems Mgmt in 2001:

http://techinsider.nextgov.com/2009/08/on_kundras_college_re...

Dvorak, on the other hand, appears to have used a website that cost $6.50 as his source (see his screenshots).

look_lookatme• 17 years ago

Dvorak called the University of Maryland, College Park and they said they had no record of him receiving a degree at there, which is what everyone things of when they read University of Maryland. NextGov confirmed he has an MS at UMUC, which might have a shared history with UMD, but only UMD is allowed to be known as the University of Maryland.

This is so obviously a non-story, or at least not worth more than a short, transparency inspired blog post. Of all Dvoraks bonehead stories, this one takes the cake.

Still, I'd like to see Kundra's bio updated to reflect the actual university he received that degree from. I would never say I received an MS from the University of Texas, when in fact I received one from some other UT system school, and certainly wouldn't phrase it that way on my .gov bio page.

jdminhbg3• 17 years ago

Too little credit? He got the national CIO job off of it. And it's not even very impressive.

DanielBMarkham4• 17 years ago

I don't want to get into Mr. Kundra and his abilites or whatnot, but do you actually know people that have had to deal with the city of Washington DC's bureaucracy? It's not a pretty sight. I can say that the folks I know say he didn't make things much better than when he started.

edw5195• 17 years ago

...but do you actually know people that have had to deal with the city of Washington DC's bureaucracy?

Yes. My customer went out of business when the city of Washington, D.C. would not pay its 7 figure 180 day late bill. Their biggest mistake? Letting one deadbeat customer get too big.

PonyGumbo• 17 years ago

If it's true, it's terrible - but I had to laugh when I saw this:

"I first suspected something was fishy about this fellow by listening to him on CSPAN where he simply did not sound like someone who studied computers or technology. His common referrals to Twitter and Google Docs as some sort of high-tech breakthroughs and a way to save money and empower the public stemmed from pure cornball pop culture and the blogosphere, not from computer science or Information technology."

Ironically, this is exactly how I feel every time I read Dvorak.

lsb• 17 years ago

Luckily, it's not true, as was debunked just a few hours later, and retracted by Mr Dvorak himself!

balding_n_tired• 17 years ago

Disturbing, but hardly unheard of. Anyone remember the Notre Dame football coach who suddenly resigned when somebody looked closer at this resume? There have been academic administrators in the last couple of years with degrees that didn't really stand up under scrutiny, haven't there?

anigbrowl• 17 years ago

What surprises me is that when the Obama administration came in it was widely noted for performin background checks which were unprecedentedly strict - 60 page questionnaires and so forth. One wonders whether this level of scrutiny was so time consuming that it was quietly dropped later.

It does strike me that since Creostar was involved in cybersecurity and information warfare, its activities might be less public than you would expect - if its primary customers were government intelligence agencies, for example. However, I think it's up to Kundra to clarify that.

It'll be interesting to see how this one turns out.

mojonixon• 17 years ago

There are multiple Univ. of Maryland campuses, so it is quite possible he really does have an MIS. Even still his resume is a bit light.

But he's a political appointee. None of them are appointed for their expertise. The head of the EPA was the chief of staff for the New Jersey governor. Appointments are made for political reasons, and not much else. The mark of a good appointment is someone who doesn't get in the way of their career staff.

eli8• 17 years ago

I find it funny that John C Dvorak -- who once famously decried the "System Idle Process" eating up all his CPU time -- is challenging someone else's knowledge of CS and IS.

luigi4• 17 years ago

How is everyone just accepting that Dvorak is right?

This is the same guy who said "[t]here is no likelihood that Apple can be successful in a business this competitive", referring to the mobile phone industry:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/apple-should-pull-the-plug-...

The same guy who thought that the Windows System Idle Process being at 95% was a bad thing:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000873.html

And predicted that spam will kill wikis:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1835857,00.asp

krying_krab• 17 years ago

Now I'm no expert on this but, wouldn't it be a security risk if any old citizen could inquire about the credentials of another person? Recent homegrown terrorists come to mind.

That said, he could just be a phony who invented degrees. The White House really should say something about this.

qeorge2• 17 years ago

If this is true (I don't think it is), he apparently duped the University Of Maryland itself:

"Kundra holds an undergraduate degree from UM in psychology and a master's of science in information technology."

http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/facts/mm/08-09/mar.cfm

Took all of 1 minute to find that on Bing:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Aumd.edu+%22vivek+kundra%...

Can we move on please?

tokenadult5• 17 years ago

That's an interesting clash of sources. The university registrar is the authoritative source on who has a degree. The university news service is a captive journalistic organization--it will be interesting to see if its report rather than Dvorak's is confirmed from the primary sources.

zhyder• 17 years ago

Your link has "Kundra holds an undergraduate degree from UM in psychology and a master's of science in information technology."

Which actually doesn't indicate that the MS in IT was from UM, and hence doesn't clash with Dvorak's post.

Edit: Interesting that the Wikipedia page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivek_Kundra , has already been updated with "claims to hold... but no record" using Dvorak's post as the citation. Should have waited a few days to see how this gets resolved or at least backed up by more journalists.

jdminhbg3• 17 years ago

We should move on because the U of MD PR office didn't fact-check his degree in putting out a press release?

DanielBMarkham4• 17 years ago

I don't know the particulars of this case, but I can share some things I learned as a freelance writer 20 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you know or how good you are: government appointments are done on a "good old boy/girl" basis according to who knows whom. That means that knowing and impressing the right people is much more important than cost savings, innovation, or any of the other things we associate with being somebody in power.

There's nothing new or unique about this -- it's been going on since the first time anybody was appointed by anybody else. It IS good, however, to see the tech community working to vet those who claim to have the knowledge to make tech community decisions.

I always told people if I had any sense I would have went into politics in my early 20s. With an affable personality and a sharp mind, you can make a lot more bucks than actually having to struggle through forming a startup, and it's a lot more interesting than suffering through a corporate career.

tptacek8• 17 years ago

A CS degree isn't a requirement for most F-500 CIO positions. The CIO of a real company doesn't make low-level technology decisions. A business background is more important for most CIO roles than a computing background.

If Kundra lied about his resume, he should resign or be terminated; no question. However, Dvorak's column makes me think he doesn't know what a CIO is.

vaksel• 17 years ago

Something like this is extremely common. After you get that first job, noone will ever check your credentials.

The thing is, noone really remembers college. Well at least I don't. I'm trying to think now, but I can't really remember a single teacher, or a single building off the top of my head. And I only graduated 2 years ago.

So you can't really quiz someone on their status, even if you wanted to.

And think about this for a moment, pretty much every person who's been exposed like this, was exposed at the national level.

harry• 17 years ago

I personally work at the University Registrar in a data analysis and records protection postion. Due to the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA - http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html) we do not disclose ADHOC queries about "does so and so have a degree from you" without consent from the party or a formal & legaleze "Open Records Request." http://www.provost.ku.edu/policy/updates/open_records_act/

There is a considerable amount of effort and time involved in securing an Open Records Request here in Lawrence. The lawyers prevent people from just calling up and say 'hey what is Ex Gov. Sebeilius minor in?'

Anyway...

lyime• 17 years ago

I am pretty sure that the White House guys did due diligence before hiring this guy.

Seiwynd• 17 years ago

Link to HN item where his degree is verified - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758840

gehant• 17 years ago

Isolated ignorance is bad enough. Vocal ignorance (or laziness) is dangerous & irresponsible.

I guarantee a significant percentage of the US population will take this headline as fact, despite all efforts to refute it in the future.

w1ntermute• 17 years ago

Turns out Dvorak just made it all up: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=758840

krschultz• 17 years ago

Flagged as inaccurate, the article has been factually proven wrong, get it off HN

http://gigaom.com/2009/08/12/dvorak-raises-doubts-about-us-c...

tptacek8• 17 years ago

No.

chrischen• 17 years ago

You don't need a degree to be a tech wiz...

Is US Chief Information Officer Vivek Kundra a Phony?

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