At least 9 reported dead, more than 100 injured near Ukraine's parliament

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/renewed-violence-breaks-out-today-near-ukraines-parliament-at-least-one-injured-336993.html

by emhart • 12 years ago

100 43 12 years ago

kyivpost.com

JonnieCache2• 12 years ago

Does anyone have insight into russia's possible role in all this? It does seem to give them a very handy excuse to consolidate their cherished buffer zone.

EDIT: by "them" I'm referring to the russian establishment, not the people in general.

EDIT2: I suspected this post was a bad idea. I really don't mean to accuse a whole nation of maliciousness. I just want a little guidance in the geopolitical wilderness of mirrors. This probably isn't the time to be asking.

astine• 12 years ago

I don't know if Russia is responsible for anything that's happened so far. This fight is largely between ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. If this escalates too far, Russia will intervene and probably on behalf of Yanukovych.

fidotron2• 12 years ago

But everyone in eastern Europe knows that the large groups of ethnic Russians around act as puppets of Mother Russia. The classic example of that was the riots in Estonia.

The problem is it means any actual protesting by Russians over legitimate grievances is likely to be viewed suspiciously.

JonnieCache2• 12 years ago

My understanding is that ukraine was veering towards closer alliance with europe before all this started. That makes the sudden emergence of violent uprising, possibly necessitating american-style "intervention" on the part of the russian government rather convenient. If that does come to pass, I will be extremely suspicious.

Of course this is just ill-advised idle speculation.

gkoz• 12 years ago

Yanukovych's side doesn't claim to represent ethnic Russians and/or fight against Ukrainians. They indiscriminately fight any opposition. None of the protesters' demands have anything to do with ethnic Russians, who by the way join the protests too. So no, this conflict isn't between ethnicities.

IgorPartola7• 12 years ago

I don't have an answer, but I do think this is a legitimate question to ask. My hunch is that these are just freak accidents and have nothing to do with the bigger picture. Somebody got pushed far enough and violence ensued. However, IMO the whole thing started because of Russian influence and if Yanukovych didn't have the (at least mental) support of the Russian government he would probably have backed down by now.

memracom5• 12 years ago

On the national scale in Ukraine, I think you are right. But on the scale of individuals, there really are a bunch of vicious people who hate Russia, hate the EU, hate America and also hate the fatcats of Ukraine like Yanukovich. But they love violence. When people like that are allowed to mass together, violence is inevitable. The demonstrations in November and December were a completely different crowd of people and included a lot more ordinary people.

mladenkovacevic3• 12 years ago

Does anyone have insight into United States possible role in all this?.... oh wait http://youtu.be/qv7qy7jot30

dfkf3• 12 years ago

I suspected this post was a bad idea.

I'd say this post doesn't make much sense. Pro-western ukrainains riot against Yanukovich, who they think took away their european dream and you try to blame the Russians.

Ygg22• 12 years ago

If by Russia, you mean Putin, then Putin is basically sponsoring Yanukovich. From my knowledge Russia and Ukraine had a special multi dollar transaction, after which the Ukraine has decided not to pursue EU membership.

dfkf3• 12 years ago

The primary reason is not 15 billions, but trade preferences from Russia. It's 2004 all over again, and Ukraine wants to sit on two chairs - it wants to develop closer ties with the West and doesn't want to lose preferences from Moscow.

mladenkovacevic3• 12 years ago

I'm not trying to call into question your level of the awareness of this situation but what exactly do you believe a "special multi dollar transaction is"?

Yanukovich sat down with the Euro leaders and couldn't come to an equitable agreement that would help Ukraine in any way. Russia on the other hand offered a $15 billion bailout to help out the Ukrainian economy and a guaranteed low price for natural gas. The elected leader of Ukraine probably thought cooperating with Russia might be a better deal for Ukraine than Euro's offer of asking something for the promise of nothing.

chaz• 12 years ago

I found this article helpful for ELI5: "9 questions about Ukraine you were too embarrassed to ask" http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/30...

IgorPartola7• 12 years ago

This is really crossing a mental line for me. I have a friend who lives in Kyiv who is thankfully OK, but it's definitely precarious. I am really hoping this situation deescalates quickly and a resolution is found.

fidotron2• 12 years ago

The single oddest thing about these protests is to outsiders the whole thing seems utterly impenetrable. It seems really hard to tell who here could be said to be supporting or subverting democracy. Who are the puppets? Who is making the decisions?

Obviously the brutality involved is extreme, but the protesters causes don't exactly make them sound like a bunch of angels either. It seems like the enemy of my enemy is my friend, until they're in power, when they become my enemy again on a massive scale.

IgorPartola7• 12 years ago

There have been numerous discussions of this on HN a few weeks ago. Basically, nobody is exactly a champion of freedom here, but some are way more evil than others:

The current government is heavily influenced by Russia. It is utterly corrupt and is trying to help Russia exert further influence over Ukraine the land and the people. There is no question in my mind that it should be let go. Given Yanukovych's track record, he should never have been elected or allowed to become president and there is very clear evidence that he is abusing his power for personal gain.

Now, the protesters are really two different people: there is the politicians who are trying to gain power and then there are the common people who are simply fed up with the corruption. IMO, at least some of the political figures involved in the opposition might be only slightly less corrupt than the current government. I have no idea what they'd really be like if they came into power but I have never seen an honest politician in Ukraine.

The people can be faulted, once again IMO, only for having a lack of vision. They want Yanukovych gone, but they don't know what real democracy feels like so they are not going to get much done beyond that. I don't believe them to cause the violence, so much as react to it.

Edit: My friend's opinion is that Yanukovych simply cannot give up the power. For him it's quite literally a matter of life and death; as in, if he no longer has the protection afforded to him by being the president, he, his family, and anyone who was affiliated with him will be in danger of coming to physical harm.

guard-of-terra• 12 years ago

Hi again. To quote myself:

"The current government is not a puppet but actually an actor who tries to extract bonuses from multiple parties by raising stakes."

Multiple parties are USA, EU and Russia.

Of course, talking about pre-protests situation.

memracom5• 12 years ago

I don't think that Russia cares about a few extremists rioting in a small area in the downtown area of Ukraine.

Russia wins either way.

If the Ukraine ends up on the EU accession path, they will just end up destabilizing the EU itself.

TuxLyn4• 12 years ago

This is now blocked. PDF on Scribd > http://www.scribd.com/doc/207763317/At-least-four-reported-d...

dindresto• 12 years ago

In which country/countries is it blocked? Just wondering, because it's working in Germany.

TuxLyn4• 12 years ago

Most of this kind of news about Ukraine is blocked to US viewers. At least from what I've seen. The only way to access it is to use proxy.

TuxLyn4• 12 years ago

Actually it works in US again ^_^ That weird.

austenallred• 12 years ago

I'm following this on behalf of http://grasswire.com - and a lot has changed since this article was written. I'll update this comment as frequently as possible.

* Update 18: More protesters entering EuroMaidan camp right now, many carrying tires. They've burned tires during these clashes to create a smokescreen.

* Update 17: Ukraine to restrict traffic to Kyiv starting at midnight tonight

* Update 16: Armored vehicles are entering the square. One has been set on fire by protestors.

* Update 15: An emergency meeting has been called between Yanykovytch and opposition leaders.

* Update 14: Protestors have united in singing national anthem of Ukraine as flashbang grenades, rubber and plastic bullets ring out. http://www.livestream.com/activistworldnewsnow

* Update 13: Police reinforcements have arrived, barricade has been torn down. Protestors using laser pointers to blind police. Rubber bullets being fired constantly.

* Update 12: Police storming with water cannons and rubber bullets

* Update 11: Last few livestreams: http://www.livestream.com/activistworldnewsnow

* Update 10: More streams going dead. This one is still live - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbQC7_TNQPw

* Update 9: The militia is storming the square. (personal commentary - this will not be good).

* Update 8: Chaos is breaking out. Fireworks and explosions everywhere. Livestream: http://www.livestream.com/activistworldnewsnow

* Update 7: Better livestream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/live-action-spilno-tv

* Update 6: 10 police buses and 3 water cannons are now waiting on Institutsksa street

* Update 5: Militia making loudspeaker announcement at Institutska st. "Please leave Maidan as an anti-terrorist operation will take place"

* Update 4: Live feeds are disappearing. We're worried the Internet will be cut soon.

* Update 3: BTR/machine guns on a tripod spotted at the bank "Khreschatyk"

* Update 2: Riot forces are blocking all paths to and from the central square (Maidan)

* Update 1: the square is now surrounded by military forces

* Just a few minutes ago the promised "ceasefire" ended, and police are moving toward the square.

* Livestream: http://www.livestream.com/activistworldnewsnow

* Two BTRs were recently heard.

* The main pro-protestor channel, Channel 5, had its signal cut

* Video of military APCs arriving in Kyiv, heading toward downtown http://t.co/ujaGa62OIg

emhart• 12 years ago

Thank you for jumping in with the updates!

mladenkovacevic3• 12 years ago

They are only breaking out the armoured vehicles now? Would've happened months ago in any other western country.

650REDHAIR• 12 years ago

So these are military or police BTRs/APCs?

I was under the impression that the military was staying out and would likely intervene on behalf of the public and not the police.

sigsergv• 12 years ago

Police. Military forces keep neutrality for now.

memracom5• 12 years ago

When riot forces block all surrounding streets it means that they intend to slowly close in and arrest everybody. No food or water goes into the area. People cannot leave until and unless the police are ready to arrest them.

memracom5• 12 years ago

On the Spilno TV feed (update 7) I can hear people talking in both Ukrainian and in Russian. Maybe this is not really about a split between western Ukrainians and ethnic Russians.

IgorPartola7• 12 years ago

Sounds like the protesters are trying to throw Molotov cocktails at the water cannons. They are also using laser pointers to blind the police.

Photos: http://america.aljazeera.com/multimedia/photo-gallery/2014/2...

twobits• 12 years ago

Is it just me, or is this just eu/us vs russia?

TuxLyn4• 12 years ago

You've just noticed that?

whatevsbro2• 12 years ago

acting Interior Minister Vitaliy Zakharchenko issued a public warning at 4 p.m. to protesters to clear the streets within two hours: “If by 6 p.m. the lawlessness doesn't cease, we shall be forced to used all legal means to bring order.”

So, protesting against a government that remains in place clearly against The People's will is "lawlessness", but killing and hurting/maiming protesters to shut them the fuck up is Lawfulness (and Good, naturally)?

In summary: The people do not want the current government to be in power, and the current government brutalizes them into submission, aaaand.. Yay democracy, Yay governments, Yay rulers?

Here's a set of simple rules to follow:

    1) Lawful = Good
    2) Unlawful = Bad
    3) Anything your rulers do = Lawful
    4) Anything you do to oppose your rulers = Unlawful

cpncrunch2• 12 years ago

From what I can see, most of the violence seems to be perpetrated by the protesters against the police. No matter how bad the government is, violence isn't the way to change anything (especially not when you are dealing with Putin).

whatevsbro2• 12 years ago

"Back to the voting booths, peasants! Wait patiently for your next illusory chance to affect how you're coerced!"

At least 9 reported dead, more than 100 injured near Ukraine's parliament

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