Female Founders Conference

by nRike • 13 years ago

117 102 13 years ago

Questions for the women of HN. Do you see gender specific events as something that will fade away with time? Are they something you are comfortable with being part of society for the foreseeable future?

iconfinder• 13 years ago

"Questions for the women of HN"

There are women here?!

Crake14• 13 years ago

I don't like them and hope they go away as quickly as possible. I dislike segregation on principle, generally speaking.

limedaring• 13 years ago

Perhaps, but people who are similar in some way (in this case, gender and profession) will always want to meet in a specialized way. Conferences are already specialized (CSS conferences, JS conferences, conferences for health startups, conferences for email marketing...)

Like it or not, being a female founder is way harder than being a male founder. Raising money is so much harder since you don't fit the Mark Zuckerburg stereotype. A friend of mine hid her pregnancy while raising money because she didn't want to be asked whether she was committed or not - would a guy with a pregnant wife be asked the same?

So yes, personally — I am very excited about this conference and meeting other female founders and talking to them about their experiences. Finding other people like me. Definitely comfortable with these kind of conferences being a part of society because I find a lot of women don't want to start a company since it's even harder than being a dude, and I want that to change.

alukima2• 13 years ago

I hope that gender/race/sexual orientation/anything specific events will fade away eventually. But right now there's still a lot of casual sexism in tech that goes well beyond the well meant joke.

I've worked in the adult industry, gaming and lighter tech(IT) before transitioning to development. Prior to entering the dev job market I wrote off women who complained about the tech industry as whiny or overly sensitive. On one of my very first interviews the CEO told me women aren't math minded so he was going to skip some of the questions for me. On another interview I was asked why "he should take on the liability of hiring a female programmer".

To be honest I personally could not care less about the sexual aspect of it, getting hit on, ect., as that stuff can and does happen anywhere. But I've never ever had people question my intelligence because of my gender until I got involved in development. (Or at least not bold enough to voice it to my face in a professional setting.) At first I was even against the idea of female only learn to program classes until I started volunteering at several LTC type events and saw the difference in how comfortable women are. It's not even about sex in 99.9% of cases, which is where a lot of people take it. This comic gets brought a lot to demonstrate what I'm describing and it's really spot on: http://xkcd.com/385/.

I think everyone can agree that we would like to get to the point where attribute specific outreach programs are not needed but until we get there they are a good resource.

This wasn't part of your question but I'm sure it was brought up somewhere in the thread: Obvious sexism is not long dead. I'm only 30 and when I was in school men had to take shop and women had to take home ec. I was actively discouraged from college as it was viewed as a waste of money because women would only spend a few years working before becoming moms (if they finished school at all).

msandford2• 13 years ago

On one of my very first interviews the CEO told me women aren't math minded so he was going to >skip some of the questions for me. On another interview I was asked why "he should take on the >liability of hiring a female programmer".

Those are a couple of pretty shitty interviews to be sure. I'm curious how many interview you've had for dev positions and if they're all bad like that with these being the worst examples, or if they're the only good examples.

What I'm trying to get at is that if it was 2/10 interviews were horrible like this then that's regrettable but not indicative of highly institutionalized sexism. If it's more like 8/10 interviews then I would think it is. Obviously we can't draw any rigorous conclusions from a single person's experience but I'm curious nonetheless.

Part of the reason I'm even asking is because I don't see a lot of sexism in the tech circles I travel in, but I also don't go anywhere near "brogrammer" type gatherings either. Based on the absence of sexism I see on a regular basis I'd like to believe the best in people in general.

dkhenry3• 13 years ago

Cool I am going to host the "Male Founders Conference" And no girls are allowed.

What are you implicitly stating here? Women aren't good enough to stand toe to toe with male founders so the only way they will ever be able to succeed is if they are given special treatment. Why can't I go to this event and learn from female founders do they have nothing of value to convey to me as a male ?

oceanstone• 13 years ago

Cool I am going to host the "Male Founders Conference"

I feel like I've seen that conference before, many times. Don't get me wrong, there were some very good speakers. But if one is trying to differentiate, and try something fresh, an all women conference makes a lot of sense.

human_error2• 13 years ago

I feel like I've seen that conference before, many times.

Really? Where? Could you please give an example?

nRike2• 13 years ago

Cool I am going to host the "Male Founders Conference" And no girls are allowed.

You can apply if you are male.

Why can't I go to this event and learn from female founders do they have nothing of value to convey to me as a male ?

I think the conference goal is pretty clear: help aspiring female founders start more startups, the same way Startup School does.

human_error2• 13 years ago

You can apply if you are male.

Don't you think it'd be just a 'founders conference' in that case?

wellboy6• 13 years ago

Could you kindly s tfu please?

Women do simply have it much harder than men in tech and if you even criticize them for trying to build a community, you do a lot of harm to the whole industry and will scare away even more women from becoming interested in tech.

With statements like yours, you are making sure that the gender divide becomes bigger and bigger and that people become very sensitive and insecure when discussing female founders, female programmers and similar.

wellboy6• 13 years ago

Why the downvotes, I said kindly?

asdasf• 13 years ago

With statements like yours, you are making sure that the gender divide becomes bigger and bigger and that people become very sensitive and insecure when discussing female founders, female programmers and similar.

No, that is what statements like yours do. Contrary to popular belief, not all women share a single brain and all think the same thing. Many women do not like being singled out with patronizing events like this. They do not enjoy being reminded once again that they are not "programmers" but "women programmers", to be used as tools to score points in a game of politics.

Crake14• 13 years ago

Feminists are probably the #1 force for scaring away women from tech. If you say something is true enough times (All men might rape you! Programmers all hate women!), especially from a position of power and political influence, people will start to believe it. Encouraging and (in some cases, like donglegate) inducing both an atmosphere of fear and paranoia in and towards women is incredibly detrimental towards the general humanitarian goal of bettering society.

There are isolated instances of sexism, but women don't really have it hard at all in tech. I'd say the sex discrimination in favor of women ("affirmative action") massively outweighs any lingering discrimination against women.

rfnslyr• 13 years ago

Why can't people just have their own events for their own people where they feel more comfortable? Maybe that's what it takes for some women, a friendly environment of just women.

Let it be.

orthecreedence2• 13 years ago

Yeah take a look at some of the comments here, and it's understandable why there would be a conference geared towards women.

That said, it's not like they're pulling down your pants and checking if you have a dick at the door. Men can go. It's a conference to help women with the challenges they will face specifically as females in the tech industry. If you find this topic interesting, then by all means go: man, woman, or anyone inbetween.

danellis3• 13 years ago

As a man, I wonder what makes me assumed to be so unfriendly to women.

kyro8• 13 years ago

Please explain to me the worst that can happen because of an event like this.

dkhenry3• 13 years ago

People who might not have the ability to succeed in the wider market are encouraged to start and then drop out and they extend the perception that females aren't suited to be start-up founders

PopsiclePete• 13 years ago

Sheesh. Somebody feels threatened. Let them be, seriously. We have enough "Ruby-on-rails super-star douche-wad with tits and porn jokes on his slides" events for overgrown man-children, let there be something for women that doesn't make them feel awkward or weird.

We already have a problem with this industry being a boys-only club, no need to get your panties in a bunch over this.

rimantas3• 13 years ago

Or maybe women feel awkward and weird when tits and porn jokes are on slides just because men taught them to feel that way?

  > overgrown man-children

That's the spirit!

danellis3• 13 years ago

What do you mean to say by suggesting that a man is wearing "panties"? It reads like you're suggesting he is acting like a woman by getting upset, which makes your position very unclear.

jmelesky• 13 years ago

What are you implicitly stating here?

Good question. Actually, let's ask more simply "what are you stating here?"

Women aren't good enough to stand toe to toe with male founders so the only way they will ever be able to succeed is if they are given special treatment.

It seems unlikely that's what they're stating. What other possible interpretations could there be? Or do you sincerely believe that the organizers of this conference are denigrating women? If so, how do you go about warning your female founder friends that this conference is denigrating them?

Permit• 13 years ago

It makes a lot of sense to encourage minority groups to join a field. An example including men would be something like the American Assembly for Men in Nursing.[1]

Alternatively, there are men-only classes for parenting, and those aimed at stay-at-home fathers.

These sorts of groups are not exclusive to women.

[1]http://aamn.org/

eevilspock• 13 years ago

The larger discussion is happening here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7097254

mhurron• 13 years ago

Isn't this kind of short notice ... oh wait, my mistake, everyone who is important is already in Southern California.

toggle• 13 years ago

This does not deserve to get downvoted, you're right in pointing this out. I mean, applications are accepted on February 10th, and then IF you get to go, you have nineteen days to get there? I know a lot of attendees will already be in Silicon Valley, but that's cutting it pretty close for those who need to find a flight.

tomasien8• 13 years ago

This thread made me want to cry..... this thread..... oh my god you guys this thread is so awful!

Does anyone have ideas about what could be done to educate against the constant same old "If it's just for women, it's sexism, same as if we said something was just for men" crap? I mean this is basically internet discussion canon at this point.

As a side note, we COULD have a conference just for men if it was aimed (as this is) to close the gender gap in society, tech, etc. That conference would be about treating women better, how to see your own biases and avoid them, things you think are ok but aren't, etc. Nobody would go, but that would be analogous event, not an event aimed at helping male only founders found companies.

Edit: I decided to write up a quick blog for public discussion outside of this thread

Blog: http://istommydrunk.svbtle.com/the-maleonly-version-of-the-f...

Comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7099636

If anyone wants to find it on the front page, it's there. Expecting/getting trolls.

Crake14• 13 years ago

This thread made me want to cry....

Ah, estrogen privilege.

tomasien8• 13 years ago

I have no idea if this is a joke or not, but I'm a male. 6'5", 210, played college basketball, male who wants to or actually does cry reading HN comments about gender issues.

(I don't think my size or athletic ability has anything to do with my maleness, but given the quality of discussion going on here, I figure it may be relevant in some people's minds)

supergauntlet• 13 years ago

I wish I had enough karma to downvote you. Instead of having any actual discussion you'd rather make some low effort sarcastic shitpost to try and derail?

This thread is doomed to the flamewar detector anyways, I don't suppose there's any point in trying to have decent discussion here.

kyro8• 13 years ago

Who are you?

I've read your comments. You claim to know the real reasons why women aren't going into tech, you reply to comments about gender/racial disparity with such simple-minded arrogance and assurance, yet your profile says you're a college student studying EE and physics. You're nothing more than the typical puffed-up ignorant college asshole who thinks he has the world figured out.

Wait till all the pubes have grown in and get a few years in the real world under your belt before thinking about making such idiotic statements because as of now you have absolutely nothing of value to contribute. For a college kid in the throes of acquiring knowledge and perspective, you're pretty god damn ignorant and stubborn and just dickish on the whole.

And if you're not the typical 18-22yo college kid, but rather someone a bit older, then this is all the sadder really.

yetanotherphd2• 13 years ago

Does anyone have ideas about what could be done to educate...

Well the problem with debate is that everyone wants to "educate" the other side. So my idea is that you prove you are actually right, and then maybe people will accept your views.

tomasien8• 13 years ago

That's actually not terrible. That's a pretty good thought framework for thinking about this problem I think.

MartinCron2• 13 years ago

At this point, you have to believe that comments like this (along with the "why no programs to get more male teachers?" gem) are pure trolling and not people trying to express new or compelling ideas.

I mean, do these guys think that they are such brilliant thinkers that they are the first ever to try apply symmetry to an asymmetrical context?

mkdir• 13 years ago

It looks like you've spent the last few months ignoring all but the worst arguments against your position. That sort of insularity doesn't help you understand the other side.

I mean, do these guys think that they are such brilliant thinkers that they are the first ever to try apply symmetry to an asymmetrical context?

You need to read more charitably, because I can safely say that everyone recognizes the asymmetry.

There are a couple of issues here, the first of which is that contextual asymmetry doesn't always matter.

One example:

Sarah and Amy walk up to John and Christopher on the playground at school. John is enjoying a strawberry ice cream cone.

The two girls slap Christopher, who retaliates by slapping them both back. John, ice cream cone still in hand, yells for the teacher to come over.

"Christopher!", scolds the teacher, "Slapping is wrong! Come to the office with me."

"But Sarah and Amy slapped me first! Why aren't they getting in trouble?"

"Because John has an ice cream cone, and you're both boys."

Second, some of the asymmetry in this context is actually inconvenient for your position.

A few examples:

1. Society is far more sensitive to the plight of girls than to the plight of boys. As such, it's often politically unfeasible to ever reverse a program that elevates girls at the expense of boys. For instance, there are still far more scholarships available to girls than are available to boys, despite the fact that women have outnumbered men in college for decades.

2. Boys and men are less risk-averse than girls and women, and as a result, they find themselves more numerous at both the top and the bottom of society. Programs that ignore the men not at the top of society, in favor of elevating women toward the top, end up hurting disadvantaged men.

3. STEM jobs are perhaps the only good realistic job prospect for young boys today. Programs that whisk girls ahead of boys for STEM jobs end up leaving those boys with nowhere to turn, because there is insufficient (not non-existent) political pressure to open up other opportunities for them (as point #1 above demonstrated).

adammil2• 13 years ago

You can have a female founders conference, whose purpose is to uplift women, and allow men to be there as well. True story: I once attended a "women in tech" style conference as a hiring manager looking for potential recruits, and I won a random drawing for a prize. It was a purse with a company logo on it. Yes, it felt pretty sexist that no one expected a man would be there.

lcc• 13 years ago

I'm sorry you didn't like the prize, but is it such a stretch that prizes at a women-in-tech conference would be targeted at women in tech?

You might not realize it, but women face a similar issue all the time at conferences/events where "unisex" (really men's) cut t-shirts are given out. These t-shirts are generally quite flattering on men and not-so-flattering on women, so I'd argue they're the woman's equivalent of your purse.

I went to the Grace Hopper conference this year and it was very refreshing to see that every company that gave out t-shirts used female cuts, since those are t-shirts I'll actually wear!

tomasien8• 13 years ago

I decided to write up a quick blog for public discussion outside of this thread

Blog: http://istommydrunk.svbtle.com/the-maleonly-version-of-the-f...

Comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7099636

If anyone wants to find it on the front page, it's there

gizmo686• 13 years ago

On a meta-level, I think you are observing the vocal minority bias. As evidence, consider the fact that your comment currently holds the first comment position, suggesting that it received a significant amount of upvotes relative to the other comments. I observe the same effect on other, similar, threads, where the first comment tends to be a response to the overwhelming "If it's just for women, it's sexism, same as if we said something was just for men" you are observing.

steveklabnik2• 13 years ago

suggesting that it received a significant amount of upvotes relative to the other comments.

This is not strictly true, position is based on a lot of factors.

tomasien8• 13 years ago

There's a lot of factors here, but why would the majority be silent in tech? Is it because they feel like their voice is belittled?

001sky2• 13 years ago

This thread made me want to cry..... this thread.....

The irony in this manipulative[1] use of language in a topic on sexism is outstanding.

Seriously, could you have tried any harder (to fan the flames)[2]?

_________________

[1] http://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/a-chemical-signal-in-human-...

[2] eg, courtesy of google

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/01/11/crying-...

Crying At Work, A Woman's Burden

There are few situations where crying is “acceptable.” The worst offenses, she found, are crying in a public meeting or because of work stress, like a looming deadline or coworker disagreement, because it is considered disruptive and weak. Crying in a private performance evaluation is also considered unprofessional and often manipulative.

The only exception to criticism is crying due to a personal loss like death or divorce, and even that has its limits. “If the crying is excessive–repeated or prolonged, rather than a single episode–it could be considered unstable or weak,”

My question to you is what were you thinking in this choice of language?

tomasien8• 13 years ago

Didn't consider it, I'm a man though. That seems relevant. I also can not have achieved any of the chemical benefits of crying because you aren't near me. So... I don't know. I don't even really know what you're trying to say.

If you're saying my use of language was extremely strong, you're right - intentionally so because I actually felt like crying and did, in fact, cry a tiny bit after reading these comments. They're horrible and I love HN so much, I can't stand that it can't deal with gender issues in a reasonable way.

DenisM• 13 years ago

Rather than crying, try being more persuasive in your arguments. If it ain't working, try a different angle. It will go over better with the people whose opinion you're trying to change - the silent and cautiously indifferent majority. Persuasion is hard, but you sort of signed up for the hardship here, didn't you?

A lot of people on "your side" of the issue are either flat out incoherent or go far too deep into proselytization land to be tolerable. The other side is also somewhat incoherent and often shallow or juvenile. Together the two sides are creating a lot of noise for each other, with hardly any digestible information for the masses.

kartikkumar2• 13 years ago

Interestingly, although the event description clearly asks: "Are you a woman interested in starting a startup?", if you click through to the application, it actually asks you for your gender. Is that because YC would still like to know now many men want to be present at the event? Is it because men are allowed, but they're not advertising it? Or will they simply inform all men that applied that regretfully their applications have been denied?

Crake14• 13 years ago

And for trans people who don't conform to the gender binary, no option whatsoever: there's only "male" and "female" as an option. Now, I'm not asking for that crazy xe and xir stuff, but if you're going to go to a conference where their main claim to fame is being gender themed, you should be able to put down "other" or "prefer not to specify" (the latter of which may be preferred even by some people who are firmly on one end of the gender spectrum). One big problem I have with events that are either thematically or exclusively gender segregated is that all it really does is reinforce gender roles. You've got to pitch in with one camp or the other, so that the privilege checkers know how many points to assign you. I don't like it. My computer doesn't care what my gender is or isn't, or what's between my legs. That's actually one--of many--things that has drawn me to tech.

That said, these are all good questions.

kartikkumar2• 13 years ago

Yes, particularly relevant in the Bay Area, where gender discussions are mainstream. I lived in the student co-op system in Berkeley, and it was then for the first time that I really started to appreciate the meaning of "other" as a gender option. I guess YC and SV companies are not yet ready to be that "open-minded"?

yetanotherphd2• 13 years ago

I think that women are often put off by the nasty, aggressive vibe in tech. No one wants to go into an industry where they will get sworn at, or have snide remarks made at them. Here are some examples just from this thread:

you're pretty fucking ignorant and stubborn and just dickish on the whole.
no need to get your panties in a bunch over this.
Could you kindly s tfu please?

Crake14• 13 years ago

You do realize the language being employed in your examples is from the side arguing in favor of the gender segregation themed conference, not against it, right?

danellis3• 13 years ago

Men are put off by nasty, aggressive vibes too. I don't know why you'd think that that's exclusive to women. Men want to work in a friendly, cooperative, supportive workplace where they won't be sworn at or have snide remarks made at them. Unfortunately, that's not always possible, because some people are jerks, and companies don't always hire well. I think that will always be true, because that is human nature.

sdegutis• 13 years ago

I can't comment about this because I'm a white male and therefore cannot relate to anyone who is oppressed, since I've experienced nothing but privilege my whole life. So the only thing I can do is be silent so that the silenced can be heard.

znowi• 13 years ago

This escalated quickly. From a creative interpretation of the interview, to a lengthy plea from pg defending his honor, and now a whole conference for women. I myself have nothing against such a forum, but the way it came about to be is ridiculous and insincere. It's a result of an overreaction and over-attempt to save a reputation. It's not really about female founders, it's about pg and allegations of sexism.

therogerwilco• 13 years ago

This is like feminism. Once I had a feminist say it was about equality for women AND men.

I said, "would you like to join an organization called 'maleism'? It's for the equal treatment of men AND women."

Female Founders Conference

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