Tortured by the Japanese in WW2, a former POW met his tormentor 50 years later

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/tortured-by-japanese-ww2-former-pow-met-chief-tormentor-again-50-years-later/

by bryanwbh • 13 years ago

172 108 13 years ago

mercurial3• 13 years ago

Interesting story. The ingenuity prisoners display is often remarkable. Of course, this goes pretty much against the current mood in Japanese politics (or at least what I, as a foreigner living abroad, reads about), which goes more along the lines of "our brave soldiers never did anything wrong when they were expanding the Co-Prosperity Sphere".

StavrosK10• 13 years ago

Are American politics any different, when "liberating" Iraq?

lovemenot2• 13 years ago

Two wrongs don't make a right. And what does America have to do with this anyway? The protagonaists were British and Japanese.

BrandonMarc• 13 years ago

I keep finding rumors the movie will be released in the US in a few months, but nothing concrete.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2058107/releaseinfo

lsh2• 13 years ago

It has been advertised on the London underground here for a few weeks now with a January release date.

ninguem2• 13 years ago

As far as films go, the plot is almost identical to Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085933/?ref_=nv_sr_4

fromthefuture• 13 years ago

Maybe Murnat Kurnaz can come back to America in 50 years and make friends with his former torturers, too. And then a movie.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/notes-from-...

rotub• 13 years ago

My brother and sister walked 325km from Ban Pong to Sangkhla Buri along what exists of this very railway. It was in memory of a POW my brother met at our church who worked on the railway during his time in the war.

My sister wrote a book about the experience called Norn Lup? A Journey Of Railways, Roads, & Wats. http://intrepid-girl.com/blog/writing/buy-the-book-norn-lup-...

And my brother made a documentary http://www.lukenowell.com/projects/lukenowell/thailandtrek/

Hope people don't mind these plugs but they both add value to the story behind this railway and the people who worked on it against their will.

You can read about their expedition here http://www.deathrailwaywalk.com/

VMG• 13 years ago

do yourselves a favor and don't read the comments on the site

jbm• 13 years ago

The title originally may have contained a racial epithet, based on one of the trackbacks; although I'm not sure (the trackback author may have changed the title)

The comments are internet cancer.

girvo• 13 years ago

Jesus that's bad. Like, I've seen terrible comments, but that really takes the (racist, bigoted) cake.

emmelaich• 13 years ago

My grandfather was POW at Changi for four years. He saw many of his friends die; many tragically just after the war when they rashly ate too much of the wrong thing. During his captivity his family didn't know whether he was dead or alive. He never knowingly bought a Japanese product. He never spoke about his experience much.

I'd like to think things would have been a lot better had he had the opportunity to meet some genuinely apologetic Japanese.

StavrosK10• 13 years ago

What do you mean by "ate too much of the wrong thing"?

rurounijones• 13 years ago

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=2010061011011...

m0nty• 13 years ago

After a period of malnutrition, you need to start taking small amounts of relatively low-calorie food and building up from there. It is a well-known phenomenon that eating too much calorie-packed food can be fatal. In his book The Forgotten Highlander, Alistair Urquhart records the same thing happening on the ship which transported former POWs home.

smegel• 13 years ago

We dont seem to be so generous to Nazi torturers and murderers. They are still being hunted down apparently.

ramblerman• 13 years ago

It is an interesting comparison. I wonder if it's because of the sheer numbers that died in the camps or the power of the jewish lobby post world war II.

znowi• 13 years ago

I wonder if it's because of the sheer numbers that died in the camps or the power of the jewish lobby post world war II.

I think it's both, though the Jewish community has indeed been very vocal in popularizing the Nazi atrocities and establishing the term "Holocaust" to mean specifically the genocide of Jews in WW2. It is a crime to deny it in many countries.

It may seem as if the Jews were the focal point of the Nazi Aryan doctrine, however, the other sub-humans on the bottom of the racial ladder were the Slavic people and people of color. Russian death toll in the WW2 was more than 20 million people. Although, I never heard of the "Russian Holocaust".

bambax2• 13 years ago

It seems most of them don't show any kind of remorse and instead insist they had been doing the right thing all along.

For example, Erich Priebke, who died last year, aged 100, always declared he was only "obeying orders" in setting up the massacre of 335 people (including children). Not only that, but his own son has always defended him and his actions.

This kind of attitude doesn't help much with forgiveness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Priebke

ItendToDisagree2• 13 years ago

Not defending Erich in any way, but the "obeying orders" excuse has been used by US Soldiers in Iraq (among other stories regarding previous wars in history and involving other countries' soldiers). Do you think they should be executed? The Nazi's were one of the first instances of prosecution for soldiers who were following orders when committing war crimes (in the case of concentration camps the scale may be the marker) so it is an interesting question.

Seriously asking and not trying to be inflammatory. It is seriously just an interesting concern of where "following orders" stops being a valid excuse. For instance should drone operators controlling, attacks that kill a whole wedding convoy, be prosecuted for following orders? Weird world we live in.

Again not defending Erich Priebke just a jumping off point for interesting discussion.

Edit: Fix spelling

hershel• 13 years ago

Priebke is quite a unique example. Most nazi's who took part in such behaviors had other options: for example , many could have chosen not to be part of the "death squads". This might mean they would advance less in the ranks and might become regular wwii soldiers which isn't the best life.

Priebke got hit orders from hitler. Altought there are a few who disobeyed a direct order from hitler and lived to tell about it, Priebke, in his a circumstances would have probably been executed.

yetanotherphd• 13 years ago

I don't see how that one single example can be counted as evidence that German who participated in war crimes were less apologetic than Japanese.

S4M• 13 years ago

Don't forget that Nagase was "just" a translator.

sitkack4• 13 years ago

Translates pain into prose.

LeeHunter• 13 years ago

One of the most astonishing books I've ever read is Unbroken, which is the true story of an American pilot (and Olympic athlete) who went through a similar experience as a POW of the Japanese. Well worth checking out.

zalew• 13 years ago

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rozmowy_z_katem

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=n&prev=...

nl4• 13 years ago

There, he was locked in a 5ft cage that soon became full of red ants, mosquitoes and his own filth.

...

A towel was put over his mouth and nose. Then one of the guards picked up a long rubber hose, turned a faucet on full force, and directed the stream onto the towel. The water soaked through, blocking Lomax’s mouth and nose. He gagged and frantically gasped for breath as water filled his throat. His stomach began to swell. He was drowning on dry land. When the towel was finally removed and Lomax had recovered from his delirium, he still refused to confess and name his confederates. The water torture began once more.

Sounds horrible.

The memorandum describes in detail each of the techniques proposed as generally used, including attention grasp, walling, facial hold, insult slap, cramped confinement (large and small and with and without an insect), wall standing, stress positions, sleep deprivation, and waterboarding.

The Bybee Memos, authored by the Deputy Assistant Attorney General of the United States and signed by Assistant Attorney General[1]. These techniques were used by the US on suspected terrorists.

I hate how the line between the good guys and the bad guys is so blurred I sometimes question if it exists at all.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bybee_Memo

StavrosK10• 13 years ago

I hate how the line between the good guys and the bad guys is so blurred I sometimes question if it exists at all.

What? You still believe in Hollywood-style good guys and bad guys? Do you think that the Japanese believed then that they were the bad guys?

I am very surprised to see the good guy/bad guy mistake here. Everyone thinks they are the good guy, because everyone has reasons for what they do, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Even the nazis were exterminating Jews for the good of their country, or so they told themselves.

kremlin• 13 years ago

I agree completely. There's a great set of posts on lesswrong about that.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/i0/are_your_enemies_innately_evil/

"Realistically, most people don't construct their life stories with themselves as the villains. Everyone is the hero of their own story."

philh2• 13 years ago

You still believe in Hollywood-style good guys and bad guys?

Not all beliefs in good guys and bad guys are hollywood-style.

Do you think that the Japanese believed then that they were the bad guys?

No, but I do think they were among the bad guys.

If everyone says "I'm not racist", you probably don't say "oh good, that's okay then" and decide racists don't exist.

nl4• 13 years ago

What? You still believe in Hollywood-style good guys and bad guys? Do you think that the Japanese believed then that they were the bad guys?

What a boring, predictable response, that missed the whole point.

Of course I don't believe in Hollywood-style good guys vs bad guys.

But I used to believe that the US saw themselves as "good" and that self-image acted as a self-imposed limiter on deliberate policies that the US would enact.

For example, one could argue that internment of people of Japanese background during WW2 was evil. However, there possibly is an argument that some of them may have had mixed loyalties, and that acted as justification.

One might also argue that incidents like the deliberate infection of native Americans with smallpox were evil, but they localized incidents, and not something that was endorsed at the highest levels of government.

I don't agree with either of these excuses, but I see that there is an argument one could make.

But to stoop as low as a policy of deliberate torture and pretend that is justified is beyond my understanding. I cannot see how anyone can truly believe in their justifications for that - except if they believe those that are being tortured are less than human.

markdown• 13 years ago

Sounds horrible.

Reminder: It's been around 1800 days since Sean Hannity insisted that water-boarding wasn't torture and promised to be water-boarded for charity.

https://encrypted.google.com/webhp#q=sean+hannity+waterboard...

ck22• 13 years ago

What's really interesting is other countries could do this to US citizens who are arrested/detained/imprisoned and there is no way the US could argue they are being tortured. Because we have clearly declared it is not torture and never prosecuted those doing it or those ordering it.

Remember this the next time you travel overseas. I guess we should hope local police forces don't decide this is acceptable behavior.

The guy who invented/instated these techniques is going around on a book tour now on all the news-tainment channels declaring how he did nothing wrong.

sitkack4• 13 years ago

Could you give a link to that? I'd like it for reference.

saalweachter2• 13 years ago

I don't think the line is blurred at all.

People who torture are bad guys. It doesn't matter if they torture us or they torture others on our behalf. They are the bad guys.

hnriot• 13 years ago

what about a torturer extracting information about a bomb placed in a school?

Thus philosophical debate has been going on for ages, like the medical advances made by horrific means by the nazis, or whether it's even ethical to listen to Wagner. Does good that comes from evil ever justify the evil? We wont solve that now or anytime, it's much the same debate as the one for the death penalty, because that's been shown time and time that it has no deterrent effect.

Spooky23• 13 years ago

War is an evil and terrible thing, period.

The true bad people are the fat and comfortable leaders and agitators at home who send men to war.

novaleaf• 13 years ago

i came here guessing the the top post would tie the story back to recent US torture. not that it's wrong, just unfortunately predictable :/

brendan_gill• 13 years ago

Extraordinary story. This reminds me somewhat of a 1955 reunion[1] of Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the Enola Gay, and a survivor of the Hiroshima bomb in an episode of "This is your life". I can't say the whole show is tasteful but I found the meeting incredibly emotional to watch.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0m8D6APp64

jpatokal• 13 years ago

Server seems to be buckling under the load, but archive.org has a copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20131027021454/http://www.abroad...

fforw• 13 years ago

Something tells me there will be no meeting 50 years after the torture in US secret prisons -- especially none with any insight into the wrongness of it.

wila• 13 years ago

It's an impressive story and hard for anybody of us to even imagine in this day and age.

These days I live in Bangkok and have been fortunate enough to take the train that rides over the track these POW have made. It was a very humbling experience. Especially the parts where the train drives through rocky areas where the walls have all been cut by human force, no explosives have been used. It takes a whole day to drive the track which is among the parts that make it so hard to believe it has all been made by hand and that so many people have died while making it.

If you ever get a chance to visit, then I can highly recommend it.

Unfortunately looking at what these POW achieved is one of the few things we can do to honor those who suffered there.

mercurial3• 13 years ago

It's an impressive story and hard for anybody of us to even imagine in this day and age.

The torture part is very easy to imagine, in this day and age, unfortunately.

MarcusBrutus2• 13 years ago

I find it strange that if Mr. Nagase had been a rather indifferent PoW camp "administrator" who did not actively participate in torturing him, the late Mr. Lomax would likely feel no great urge to meet him and make friends with him. I' ve read that a kind of bond is almost always formed between the tortured and the torturer. Something for psychologists to explore I guess.

jotm3• 13 years ago

Isn't that a form of Stockholm syndrome?

MarcusBrutus2• 13 years ago

Perhaps, in a broader sense. One particular account I've read in a autobiographical book by a person who fought in a distant civil war and had been on both sides of the table, so to speak, recalls how he felt the same kind of bonding - "closeness" as he puts it - both with the people who tortured him and those who he, himself, tortured.

haberman• 13 years ago

I cannot begin to understand how a person can be subjected to that much pain/torture and yet still remain defiant. It is unimaginable to me.

Roboprog• 13 years ago

Perhaps he was angry at his captors.

Or convinced he was doing the right thing and that resistance was worth it according to his value system.

I can't say, otherwise, never been tortured.

grifpete2• 13 years ago

Totally agree.

grifpete2• 13 years ago

If you want to reflect on something truly heinous bear in mind that during torture sessions these days it is customary to have a doctor on hand to ensure that the victim is not actually killed. The objective is to inflict ongoing pain and killing would defeat the objective. So a doctor of all things witnesses the process and keeps the victim alive so he/she can be tortured more. Apparently you can get any professional to do anything no matter how wildly those actions may seem to be to the most fundamental values of their profession and the oath they swear to practice it.

aestra• 13 years ago

Citations for this?

DenisM• 13 years ago

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/notes-from-...

notastartup2• 13 years ago

So assassinating ex-Nazi torturers is kosher but not ex-Imperial Japan Army torturers, coercing Korean women as sex slaves for the Japanese army, massacring an entire Chinese city, conducting live human experiments with germs and chemicals?

a8da6b0c91d2• 13 years ago

If you read into the "comfort women" thing a lot of it turns out to be dodgy. The imperial army bought into and regulated existing prostitution rackets. (The US Army effectively did this, too.) After the war a lot of hookers suddenly became sex slaves to the evil Japanese.

You have to keep in mind that even before the war in parts of Asia this was an era where a poor farmer might sell a daughter to pimps. This is stuff that was happening whether the imperial army was involved or not.

notastartup2• 13 years ago

Never mind the testimonials from the victims themselves. Never mind the fact that Japanese politicians go out of their way to deny what went down.

doesn't make it any less illegitimate and immoral. Oh, and it wasn't just Asian women, they enslaved European women too which made some part of the "Comfort Brigade". Surely, Dutch women weren't being pimped out by their own mothers? So this, "but everyone was doing it" from the mouths of the perpetrating nation themselves is claim which is dodgy in itself and and a lame excuse to cover up a war crime and crime against humanity and women. Your argument would be like saying it's somehow joie de vivre of the times, no, no other army conscripted armies of sex slaves to keep the morale of their troops in a losing battle against Allied forces.

Do you want to deny the holocaust too because "people just didn't know better back then", "scapegoating and suppressing and massacring minority population cuz thats what dictators do" so the fact that it happened is now questionable? Never mind the victims of holocaust themselves voicing their horrible experiences?

I can't believe I'm hearing garbage like this, out of all places, on hacker news.

dferlemann2• 13 years ago

I am certainly touched by this. I'd forgive a guy like that and many other Japanese who admit to their horrific acts. I don't like generalization such as saying I forgive Japan, nor would I say Japanese are monsters. So long the stubborn politicians still exist, there will always be sting on Japan's reputation as a country.

Tortured by the Japanese in WW2, a former POW met his tormentor 50 years later

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