Will Work for Food and Lodging

http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/will-work-for-food-and-lodging

by swombat • 13 years ago

314 124 13 years ago

thenomad• 13 years ago

REALLY interesting idea - tell me you'll be blogging this?

It might be of use for people considering taking you up on this offer (and I'm one of them) to know roughly what your skills are - I know you say you're versatile, but no-one can do everything.

Or is the point that you want to do things outside your current comfort zone?

colechristensen3• 13 years ago

no-one can do everything

Anyone can be taught to do (pretty much) anything if they're willing.

akie2• 13 years ago

I'm sorry to be the buzz-kill, but that's simply not true.

ColinWright3• 13 years ago

I used to think that, and I certainly want to believe it. Then I went to teach "Calculus for Business and Economics" at a US university.

There was one lad had had an "I can it it!" attitude. He was convinced that with hard work he would be able to get through the course. With that attitude I was happy to put in extra hours to help him get the grades he needed.

Many extra hours.

Many, many extra hours.

But it didn't seem to matter what I did, he just couldn't get the hang of what fractions were all about. He could memorize and follow the rules, he mastered the processes, and he worked diligently on all the exercises I could create or find. But underneath, there was no real spark of understanding.

I recently read some unpublished research that suggests that some aspects of mathematical/arithmetical/numerical ability shares something with language. It's been well documented that if you haven't acquired a natural language by the age of 4 or 5 then your long-term abilities will be severely hampered. It's now being suggested in some circles that the same thing might be true with base-line abilities with number.

So I no longer take it as a matter of faith that anyone can do anything, so long as they set their mind to it, but that certainly doesn't stop me from encouraging people to try, and helping when ever I can.

Edit to match quotation marks.

jacquesm23• 13 years ago

Not sure if this comment is visible or not because I'm under a partial ban here, but I'll amend the post, thanks for the feedback.

graeme• 13 years ago

I see it, and I don't have showdead on or any special features.

terhechte3• 13 years ago

I love this idea. I live in Germany, and (as pointed out in the text) carpenters can still be seen from time to time during their journeyman years (which is called "Wanderschaft" or "Walz" in German). Slightly OT but here's a picture of what it looks like when they walk across the country [1] I always found this concept deeply fascinating because these people get a chance to see many things from different perspectives simply because they move out of their local village, which many people never do.

The application of this concept on modern trades like software development is certainly very interesting. I'm tempted to think that the biggest gain it might have is that one (as the journeyman) can get quick insights into the deep differences between workflows and company culture in the various companies one approaches. I mean, we all know how different the current employer compared to the previous employer can be, now imagine having such a switch every 1-2 weeks.

[1] http://www.berufsausbildung-bau.de/images/Wandergesellen.jpg

terhechte3• 13 years ago

@ytdtty your comment has been hellbanned, though I'm not sure whether it was meant as sarcastic as it sounded. So for the sake of hoping that it was genuine interested, yes they do.

bravura• 13 years ago

Does the size of the hat have any significance?

(Genuine interest.)

eetduddet• 13 years ago

Seriously? I don't see how it could even be interpreted as sarcastic. Those clothes do not look like clothing that is worn by carpenters in my country, and they also do not look practical. Why would you want to be sawing wood and carpentering in bell bottom pants and a floppy hat, for example? The outfit is obviously not entirely directly related to sawing and hammering, unless they saw or hammer with walking sticks in Germany. I don't know, so I asked... Is this site not for discussing things? I apologize for not knowing everything about the culture in your country.

terhechte3• 13 years ago

Sorry, I wasn't the one who hellbanned the comment. It could be interpreted as ridiculing, however I thought it may have been genuine interest (as it was) and so I asked. It may just be a effect of generation reddit that short questions like yours can be read as being targeted as ridiculing.

That said, the clothing is very traditional but still being worn by modern carpenters. I have a friend who does the job, and he always wears those clothes for work. Usually, without the hat and the stick, those are mostly added only for the waltz, however only based on my limited knowledge, I've never been a carpenter here.

lisper• 13 years ago

FWIW, I think hellbanning that comment was WAY out of line. It sounded like a sincere question to me. In fact, it was a question I was wondering myself. In any case, for such a severe sanction, the commenter surely should have been given the benefit of the doubt.

pinaceae• 13 years ago

it is absolutely practical.

these guys are supposed to be working outside, on top of roofs, etc.

the bellbottoms protect you from stuff falling into your boots. sawdust, nails, water, etc.

the hat protects you from sun, etc.

this uniform is meant as the only thing that you travel in. those guys walk and tramp across the country or even europe. their outfit is multifunctional and very, very old. it is meant to make you standout, it signals who you are and what you're doing.

Nanzikambe• 13 years ago

Hah! Thanks for that, I've seen folks in that costume in Switzerland and always thought they were musicians :)

austenallred• 13 years ago

If someone else is paying for food and travel, why limit yourself to a certain geographic area? If someone wants to pay for you to fly to and from Australia, I say let them do it - it would only add to the adventure.

justincormack2• 13 years ago

I think his bus is an integral part of this, so it might take a long time to get to Australia.

jacquesm23• 13 years ago

I pay for the travel (at 1 liter per 15 km that's manageable for a two week stint), also I want to be within driving distance of my other responsibilities in case something bad happens (you never know...).

jeroen947042• 13 years ago

Wife/kids.

justincormack2• 13 years ago

Richard Sennett's excellent book "The Craftsman" has a lot about the history of guilds and the training they gave, as well as relating it back to software. Well worth a read.

gaius• 13 years ago

One nitpick, journeyman doesn't mean "on a journey", it's journee man, from the French as in, a person paid a day rate for their trade. The next step up, a master, would be paid for completed items, and could employ others.

jacquesm23• 13 years ago

It's linked, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman

RafiqM• 13 years ago

Thanks, didn't know that.

raldi• 13 years ago

Seems like more than a nitpick; the whole premise of the article is that journeymen weren't paid, other than room and board, and you're saying they were, in fact, paid a daily rate after all.

jacquesm23• 13 years ago

No, it's a right, not an obligation. I chose to set my 'daily rate' at 0.

Blahah2• 13 years ago

I think the premise of the article is that jacquesm wants to do the thing he said he wants to do. The journeyman thing is just a nice way to set the story up.

x2468• 13 years ago

Isn't this the guy who squats on domain names? http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/auction-of-domains-for-sale/

jacquesm23• 13 years ago

Ah, it's you again. You are apparently unable to see the difference between squatting and buying something then selling it at a later point in time.

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybersquatting

And note that every domain I have was bought and paid for from whoever owned it previously or registered from the free pool of domains. Also note that a significant portion of those was developed at some point or other but I chose to shut them down.

nested2• 13 years ago

Wouldn't "intent to profit from the goodwill of a trademark belonging to someone else." apply in this case considering you are holding onto a bunch of domain names that you are not using? It is implied that someone is going to use that URL as a trademark of sorts, since it will usually describe their project/business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticybersquatting_Consumer_Pro... says "The law was designed to thwart “cybersquatters” who register Internet domain names containing trademarks with no intention of creating a legitimate web site, but instead plan to sell the domain name to the trademark owner or a third party.[3]"

Isn't that you?

reqres2• 13 years ago

You're 100% entitled to do what you want with your own property but please consider the view that domain names are important and finite resources and should be put to good use :)

new_test• 13 years ago

This isn't any different than being a patent troll.

mcherm• 13 years ago

It seems extremely likely that it is the same person, but nevertheless, I don't think your comment is contributing to the discussion. I don't think domain squatting (or lack thereof) is relevant to a general offer to do arbitrary work as a journeyman for room and board.

braveheart1723• 13 years ago

There are many sites online where you can exchange work for lodging.

http://www.helpx.net/

Here was a nice article on spendin a Christmas working in beautiful locations rather than stuck home.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/aug/12/working-holiday...

_delirium4• 13 years ago

If you fancy farming, there's one dedicated to that as well: http://www.wwoof.net/

Joeboy• 13 years ago

I haven't really thought this through, but I'd like to shamelessly take the opportunity to piggy back onto swombat's #1 post:

Barring disasters, in early 2014 I will be leaving the precariat and can stop being the money-grubbing mercenary I've been for the last few years. I don't exactly have fuck you money, but I should be able to get by on less than £~10kGBP / $~15kUSD a year. I'm currently based in London, UK.

Some things I like the idea of working on are Free Software, encrypted / federated communications, Linux audio, C and embedded software. I've dabbled in all of the above but am not particularly accomplished at any of them. My core skills are python / web development, but I've done plenty of other stuff and am willing and able to learn. Hopefully a look at https://github.com/Joeboy will indicate that I am basically able to do computers.

If anybody has a job (or part of a job) for me, please get in touch via my website, which is on my HN user page.

cpach• 13 years ago

If you haven’t seen them already, have a look at HN’s monthly ”Who’s Hiring?” threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=whoishiring

iaskwhy• 13 years ago

Quite funny as I've been thinking about working one or two months per city (in Europe) this year starting next month. I'm still not sure if I'll go ahead as planned but I did enjoy the idea. Best of luck to your adventure!

emeraldd• 13 years ago

I can't help but think of Mike Rowe's Dirty Jobs when I read this post. It's also one of the best uses I've seen of that Heinlein quote!

bearwithclaws• 13 years ago

This is great, Jacques! If I'm within your 1000KM radius, I would send an offer in a heartbeat. Though I don't think there's any project I have that would interest you, but would be really awesome to learn house building.

mrlithic• 13 years ago

A couple questions around this idea.

Are there any liability issues? Could a company who suffers damage from a Journeyman's work hold them liable.

Would there need to be contracts ion place. The wayward traveller arriving and working for lodging and sustenance may not be as easy as it sounds. Especially if there are IP issues etc.

I like this as opposed to the current scholastic intern system which in some cases seems to create a division between those students who can afford the work experience and those who cannot.

Does the German practise have some form of legal or legislative backing behind it? It would be interesting to understand how this operates in these European countries.

jacquesm23• 13 years ago

That's the spirit :)

nsns• 13 years ago

Sounds like the way Paul Erdős spent his entire life... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Erd%C5%91s#Personality

georgemcbay• 13 years ago

Hopefully minus the benzedrine.

Dewie• 13 years ago

"my base (Amsterdam) [...] Some stuff I’ve done over the years: [...] designed a windmill"

Fitting

jacquesm23• 13 years ago

For some more info on that:

http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/how-to-build-a-windmill

And the sequel:

http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/how-to-build-a-windmill-ii

falcolas• 13 years ago

Didn't apprentices' families have to pay pretty dearly to get their "food and lodging"? Also, weren't they pretty much indentured servants to their "Masters"?

Viewing history through rose tinted glasses aside, this seems like a great way to expand your knowledge. It would be great if something like this could be expanded further; institutionalized as part of the software development craft.

gallamine• 13 years ago

weren't they pretty much indentured servants to their "Masters"?

I guess it's somewhat like the massive student loans modern students have. You couldn't pay the master what he was worth, so you paid in other ways.

boyaka• 13 years ago

And plenty of people that would otherwise be part of a family are whoring themselves out these days, probably to help with those loans and others.

macrael• 13 years ago

I think that, in America at least, one of the few professions where this truly is alive and well is medicine. After four years of training you become a Doctor, but then you spend the next 3-5 years as a resident before you start to actually practice. Hospitals are these complex learning institutions where people in various stages of training are involved in everything to keep them learning.

declan• 13 years ago

Good point. Also Canadian lawyers fresh out of law school go through a one year journeyman program -- it's called "articling." http://www.lsuc.on.ca/articling/

If you poke around, I bet that more professions than you initially suspect have formal or informal apprenticeship or training programs. I've hired reporters who have previously gone through internships or entry-level jobs, which served that purpose. In California, for instance, the state requires that licensed contractors have "at least four full years of experience at a journey level": http://www.cslb.ca.gov/applicants/ContractorsLicense/ExamApp...

The term journeyman is still used in the U.S. to describe plumbers, electricians, etc. as well.

danomite40• 13 years ago

Clinical Psychologists go through something similar too. My girlfriend's PhD program is 5 years of classes and training, and giving therapy under supervision in the clinic under the school's umbrella as well as supervised therapy off-site at hospitals, clinics, and other institutions. Then, she must do a 1 year internship somewhere else (very typically requires relocation). After that she has her PhD but then must "post-doc" for a few years somewhere else (again, typically relocating). Only then can she become licensed.

rch2• 13 years ago

It is possible to pursue CS in the context of a MD PhD program. However, I think it's rather difficult to justify that level of effort in non-medical fields. Maybe consumer space travel will make it worthwhile to dedicate the entirety of one's 20s to higher CS education, as a minimum qualification, but I'm having trouble coming up with any present-tense examples.

rch2• 13 years ago

Now that I think about it, quants could benefit from a financial equivalent of a combined MD PhD. Large scale finance and clever math can be quite dangerous after all.

grey413• 13 years ago

Academia in general sticks surprisingly close to the guild model. You have professors as masters, postdocs as journeymen, grad students as apprentices, and undergraduates as initiates.

robotresearcher• 13 years ago

And the tenure track Assistant Professor position gives you five years as an apprentice master.

dragonwriter• 13 years ago

Academia is designed on the guild model, though the original correspondences are more: undergraduate students = apprentices, graduate students = journeymen, graduate degree holders = masters

actuary• 13 years ago

The actuarial profession effectively requires a lengthy apprenticeship before practice rights are granted. A typical actuarial student starts their first entry-level actuarial job with only an undergraduate degree, and then spends the next five to ten years working full time under the supervision of senior actuaries while taking the examinations that eventually lead to being admitted into the profession. I do not know of any other profession that works this way.

xerophtye• 13 years ago

Wow, your very username is actuary :P And interestingly enough, i have a VERY thick MLC manual sitting on my desk right now, and it's only ONE THIRD of the whole syllabus! Just trying to come to grips with that.

As for your comment, no actuarial science isn't the ONLY profession that works like that. Consider doctors for example. I think same applies to lawyers and Chartered Accountants

rogerthis• 13 years ago

will work for food and housing for me, wife and kids. i would legally relocate to the usa

iandanforth• 13 years ago

It would be interesting to set up an AirBnB style site for this. I'd love to host burgeoning talent in exchange for some code / design / ee / me work.

It would be a pretty cool tradition to "do the rounds" prior to getting your first big job. Or even as a sabattical for more experienced programmers. 2 weeks to a month here, maybe 2 months there. Get a lot of experience and hopefully some recommendations in a short period of time.

PureApeshit• 13 years ago

I am the true Nomad! http://www.homelesstribe.com/

tcdent• 13 years ago

I applaud your appreciation for diversity.

Taking it a step beyond occupation alone, I currently believe it to be a necessity for a healthy and contented life; specialization, due to imbalance, causes harm. Excessive amounts of one type of physical activity (say, running) can cause tissue damage, excessive amounts of most foods (including water) can be toxic, excessive sleep even has shown to be harmful, etc.

The only way to avoid overdoing one activity, is to incorporate more of them. Don't think of this as a purely physical practice, either; casual reading, learning and thinking apply as well.

This is not easily accomplished when one is expected to devote a majority of their waking hours to a specialized task, however. Nomadism seems to compliment this way of thinking well, as does homesteading.

sushimako• 13 years ago

Big up for a great journey ahead! I've (kindof) been living a version of this lifestyle you're describing for >2yrs now. Reading your story now makes me smile, seeing the similarities in retrospect.

When i started my journey, i basically just ended my lease, got rid of the stuff that wouldn't fit in my back-pack and went off with a vague idea of living like a "modern nomad". But i didn't really have any idea how that could work or how it would even feel like. It's important (and often hard) to let go of clinging to expectations. Any too-specific thoughts about yourself in 6mon from now will be smashed. You are in the process of gifting yourself the freedom from "needing" a plan for (e.g.) "next summer", next year or your pension.

Some highlights of my journey so far:

* designed and built a light-projection/"hologram" art-installation (learned: VJ software, some stage-building, event-production)

* helped a small team fighting through the infamous last 20% of their hostel project (learned: carpentry, metalworks)

* helped a family whith the groundworks for their eco-community in the jungle of costa rica(bridge building, gps-surveying, swingin' da macheteee)

* some burning man projects (organizing camps, carpentry, electronics/arduino/LED circuits, 2 small art-cars, learned how to build and design hexayurts [0])

* helped kick-off/co-founded a warehouse-community in SF

Almost the entire time I've been active IT-wise as well, ranging from co-founding startups, helping others out, private fun projects or sometimes freelance jobs to keep me over the water, financially.

Sometimes i sleep in hostels, many times at (new) friends. Sometimes you freeze, feel lonely, have no motivation, everything sucks. Suddenly, sooner than you'd have believed, you wake up in a huge beach-house with a crazy-beautiful oceanview. Be someone who others appreciate having around. This heavily involves giving in some way or the other (physical help, IT help, cooking help, babysitting, talking, being a friend, paying). Try to find out what works best for you; which of your options of giving are the most fruitful (e.g. in terms of learning or new friends!) and which ones just a means to an end (for me, paying/money is often (but not always) on the latter end of this spectrum).

You're up for some good fun, my friend. Just always remember to go with the flow learn to embrace change/insecurity.

[0] https://flo.jottit.com/moonberry *fmt

jacquesm23• 13 years ago

Thanks for all your kind words. I think quite a few bits & pieces of your advice apply to general living as well, and I feel a lot of them are already present in my current life.

I like your dome! Here's one I did a while ago:

http://pics.ww.com/v/jacques/stjoes/dome/

ChuckMcM• 13 years ago

Now that my kids are out of the house this sounds like it would be very rewarding. I'll have to chat with the spouse about something like this.

jacquesm23• 13 years ago

If I can help make it happen in some way let me know. Feel free to use my farmhouse as a base if you plan on doing this in Europe.

notastartup• 13 years ago

I'd be interested to see if embedded systems development or engineering in general took this route. Imagine not having to study the textbook but learning the ropes from a master who will teach you, I think one can learn the fastest by being taught without memorizing lecture notes or reading. Simply someone teaching their tips and tricks and following through. it's an interesting concept.

eru• 13 years ago

Ideally, you'd combine both approaches. Books do have their uses.

adelle• 13 years ago

I would like to piggy back on this post to mention that I'm willing to work for Latte, especially if you also have a shower or food. I'm based in Sydney, Australia and you can find me on LinkedIn.

jacquesm23• 13 years ago

maybe leave the link to your linkedin page?

einhverfr• 13 years ago

A thought here.

We've become way overcredentialled as a society. There are a lot of things where comp-sci degrees are genuinely helpful and a lot of areas where they are required for no real reason other than HR gets too many resumes.

This idea of an apprentice/journeyman/master progression is something I think has tremendous potential in the tech industry. A lot of it can be learned by doing, and for the theoretical stuff, a good Master ought to be able to teach it or provide materials for self-study.

I would like to see this idea take off more.

Taek• 13 years ago

I think there are parallels between the Journeyman of the past and the college student of the present. You spend lots of time learning under different people, and often you travel (internships and co-ops) making less pay than a full professional (or no pay at all).

Will Work for Food and Lodging

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