Help me bring Black Girls Code to Brooklyn - I'm matching the first $5K

https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/no-sleep-till-brooklyn-for-black-girls-code-ny?force_desktop=1&utm_source=crowdtilt&utm_medium=email&utm_term=comment&utm_content=comment_cta&utm_campaign=notification

by kn0thing • 13 years ago

102 229 13 years ago

crowdtilt.com

grandalf• 13 years ago

is there any way to contribute besides donating?

rak4• 13 years ago

They're always actively looking for volunteers in the areas. I believe more information about becoming a volunteer is on their website.

Passing the links/events/fundraisers around doesn't hurt either, imho.

kn0thing6• 13 years ago

Yes to all of the above.

smtddr3• 13 years ago

I was actually a presenter at one of these before. They used App Inventor http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/ It's actually a good experience for the girls if you plan for it in advance and have at least some knowledge of app-Inventor (I assume they almost always use that).

knackernews2• 13 years ago

I'll chip in, but only because you asked, not because I think this will accomplish anything.

kn0thing6• 13 years ago

Every bit helps. I'm trying my best not to use that starfish cliche....

nhangen15• 13 years ago

Is anyone else troubled by this?

"Black Girls CODE is an international non-profit organization with local chapters in San Francisco, Memphis, Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, and New York. They teach girls of color (ages 7-17) to become the masters of their technological futures by teaching them classes in game design, web development, robotics and more!"

Why not teach all girls or call it, 'Impoverished Girls Code?'

tokenizerrr• 13 years ago

Yep, racism goes both ways.

hackinthebochs19• 13 years ago

To imply that this is "racism" is just pure insanity. People really need to stop diluting the meaning of words to suit their agenda.

isomorph3• 13 years ago

Why not teach girls of all races?

Why not teach black people of all genders?

Why not teach everyone?

(I am not saying I believe anything implied by any of these questions)

undoware4• 13 years ago

Because -- and I say this as someone who has been hurt repeatedly by various kinds of segregated space -- it doesn't work as a pitch, and no, I don't know why.

Consider:

Black girls code (cool!) People from challenging backgrounds code (ok) People from challenging backgrounds do impressive things (...)

Eventually you get out to the 'thin' ethical properties and you end up just running a campaign to promote The Good.

hackinthebochs19• 13 years ago

I love how suddenly people want to pretend that marketing isn't an actual thing.

wellboy2• 13 years ago

Because then you can also call it "Girls Code" and then you can also call it "People Code".

You always have limited resources, so it's better to pick out a tight vertical to start out from, where your resources, experience and skill have a much bigger impact.

nawitus12• 13 years ago

You always have limited resources, so it's better to pick out a tight vertical to start out from, where your resources, experience and skill have a much bigger impact.

Why does picking a "tight vertical" have a much bigger impact?

nhangen15• 13 years ago

So you're OK with white girls code, hispanic girls code, european girls code, etc?

rdl4• 13 years ago

I'd be seriously troubled if it were the only program in the world teaching anyone to code, yeah.

However, it's not. I don't mind if there's some specific "help children of fallen 9/11 firefighters" program, or "black girls code", or whatever, because there are plenty of other programs for other people.

I donated $10, which thanks to the magic of Alexis, is $20. It took less time than to write this comment.

nawitus12• 13 years ago

Where're the free events to help white men code? Maybe they exist, but I haven't heard about them.

gizmo6869• 13 years ago

There is a difference between being seriously troubled by something, and thinking that something is wrong but not that significant. This case falls into a third category of wrong, not that significant, and wants my money.

crystaln3• 13 years ago

No. Because black, like it or not, people stereotype themselves and others by race and color. People put themselves and get put in boxes based on the expectation implied by these characteristics. Black girls don't have role models or encouragement to peruse coding the way white men or even white women do. Programs like this open the door to new groups and welcome them. A general purpose program would by default, perhaps unintentionally, set a high barrier for black girls to join.

It's a sort of "affirmative action," which I'm often opposed to, but in this case I am not because the opportunity is focused in a massive deficit.

On a side note, it's interesting that your outrage applies to race but not gender separations.

nhangen15• 13 years ago

Actually, I feel the same about gender separations.

And I think I used the term 'troubled' and not 'outraged.'

smtddr3• 13 years ago

Every time...

Theory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6441795

Potential examples:

  1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6885123
  2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6365495
  3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6448409
  4. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6857739
  5. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6035263 - This is the most obvious one.
  6. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6902563 - Cover up.
  7. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6907915

I'm going to just keep on collecting these links and post the list on every instance I see. This will be added as the 8th link.

gizmo6869• 13 years ago

A charity is asking for donations, and someone is raising a concern about the charity. How is this not relevant?

yetanotherphd7• 13 years ago

Your theory doesn't really accord with the evidence you posted.

Your theory is that anything positive about Black people is pounced on by trolls. To me, evidence of this would be a story about an individual Black programmer, for example, or (as you say) programmers in Oakland.

But this is a story specifically about a program for Black girls learning to code. Race is not incidental, it is central to the story. So for you to claim some kind of hidden agenda because people with differing views on race post in these stories, is ridiculous.

mladenkovacevic6• 13 years ago

What I am more troubled by is that of a 100 or so comments there are about 2 or 3 saying "this is cool how can I help." The rest are arguing the validity and political correctness of inviting black girls to code.

gizmo6869• 13 years ago

That would suggest that this community (or at least a vocal minority of this community) has a problem with this charity. I much prefer a community that voices concerns over charities rather than blindly donating to whoever asks for money.

dragonwriter3• 13 years ago

Presumably, the particular problem that the founders perceive and want to deal with is that coding isn't accessible to black girls.

Poverty may be a component of the problem they are seeking to address, but it may not be the only component. Whether or not it should be the case, different demographics -- whether divided by race or gender -- are socialized differently and its not unreasonable to think that they may be best reached by different means, and that part of the reason certain groups are underrepresented is that existing routes into the field serve some groups better than others, and that equalizing access means, in part, finding better ways to serve those groups that are currently underrepresented.

There are groups whose focus is gender but not race, e.g., http://www.girlswhocode.com/

undoware4• 13 years ago

This is so awesome. I'm stoked just knowing this is happening .

undoware4• 13 years ago

I snort derisively at white kids saying 'reverse racism' like it's a thing. HOWEVER.

1. Why is there a white dude in the driver's seat on the donation page? That's a bit dances-with-wolves, and most of the (admittedly triggery) activist communities I orbit wouldn't stand for that sort of thing. If this isn't astroturf, where is the leadership from the community? (Which isn't to say they're not involved, I just want to see more presence so I know this is really for them.)

2. Usually the stated justification for a progressive segregated space (if there is such a thing -- not going to wade into that one) is to protect folks with PTSD oppression-related triggers. E.g. at many universities men aren't allowed in a lot of on-campus women's spaces for this reason. But it isn't clear if that's the case here, and if not, why is the space segregated? It would help me feel comfortable if they'd explain their reasoning.

In general, though, like I said: stoked.

_bfhp8• 13 years ago

Are you black? Are you a black woman?

hackinthebochs19• 13 years ago

I don't have references on hand, but I've seen a study that showed girls are much more vocal and active in a classroom (specifically science/technology related) when its an all-girls setting. That in itself is a good reason to create introductory environments where girls can engage in the material without whatever social pressures keep them from doing so otherwise. As far as "black" goes, that's probably a function of the fact that its in brooklyn and to ensure that black girls realize this is for them.

icegreentea2• 13 years ago

The organization itself was founded a female african-american EE. I agree that that stuff should probably be on the donation page... but the flip side is they clearly picked Alexis because a) he's internet famous and b) he lives in Brooklyn,

For the second, if the goal is to try to get black girls into programming, then there's very little reason for them to spend the resources on other people. Why limit to black? Because the founder felt culturally isolated while going through EE, and wanted to minimize that from happening in the future. Why limit to girls? Because the founder felt culturally isolated while going through EE, and wanted to minimize that from happening in the future.

But seriously, the donation page should link to the charity's website: http://www.blackgirlscode.com/

kirillzubovsky4• 13 years ago

Gotta love US and its inverse racism. "White girls code" would be persecuted like KKK is back in business, but "Black girls code" is all good. That's not right.

isomorph3• 13 years ago

I think that's because black people have historically been "unluckier" than white people in the US.

Do you feel the same way about the sexist component of this? Should I be annoyed that "Boys code" would be persecuted but "Girls code" is all good?

(I'm not saying there are any correct answers to my questions)

rdl4• 13 years ago

Also in general poor neighborhoods are fairly segregated by race, in the US, so just by picking specific cities you're accomplishing much of the racial discrimination. I don't think it's a big deal in this case, but in general poor people in Detroit are black; poor people in inland empire are white/hispanic.

_delirium• 13 years ago

I think if some demographics are heavily underrepresented in a field, it makes some sense to target programs specifically to them.

This does happen with regards to men as well, if that's the worry—in areas where men are underrepresented. For example there is a professional association specifically to support men in nursing and recruit more men into the profession: http://aamn.org/

eropple4• 13 years ago

I think that's because black people have historically been "unluckier" than white people in the US.

"Have historically been unluckier than", "are systematically objectified socially and repressed economically by"--I understand your typo, though, the keys are so close to each other on the keyboard.

(The tenses are important, too. It isn't new, but it isn't dead.)

gizmo6869• 13 years ago

I tend to give sexist language a pass because of how gendered English is (although not as gendered as many other languages). However, in this case "Kids code" seems like a viable option, so on thinking about it, the gendered nature of the title also annoys me, although my habbit of ignoring gendered language makes this a largely intellectual annoyance.

Also, the "black" in the title has the added problem of being superfluous feeling. "Code" does not convey what the group does. "Girls Code" conveys pretty well the this is a group of (female) children programmers. "Black Girls Code" conveys no additional information other than the fact that is is aimed at black girls specifically.

nilved4• 13 years ago

Literally every other coding event is "white men code," so don't get so flustered when there's one single one that's not for you.

I expect better from Hacker News.

nawitus12• 13 years ago

An event which is free for all is not a white men code event, even if most of the participans were white men.

nhangen15• 13 years ago

That's incorrect. Just because the audience is mostly white men does not mean that others aren't welcome or that they feel unwelcome. It just means that more white guys showed up that non-white guys.

Reply to child:

Now you're essentially calling white males racist, but the comments in this thread have nothing to do with how white men feel about other genders and races.

I have never been to an event wherein I've seen anything but positive vibes towards all people attending.

kirillzubovsky4• 13 years ago

That is a bloody lie! Every other even is perhaps "men code" because indeed there are not many women who come out, but still, some do. I don't know what events you go to, but I always see a good mix of guys of all races and colors.

crystaln3• 13 years ago

How many black girls who code do you know?

There is a sufficient deficit such that there are almost no role models and this sort affirmative action makes sense.

kirillzubovsky4• 13 years ago

Our president is black. Are you saying that he is therefor not a role model for any white men in the country? Are you saying Barack Obama could only be the role model for black people? That's insane, right? Much the same way it's insane to imply that a white/chinese/indian .... woman cannot be a role model for black girls.

gizmo6869• 13 years ago

This isn't inverse racism, it is just racism.

gress8• 13 years ago

Nope. "White girls code" isn't being persecuted but "Black Girls Code" is here and now.

kenjackson• 13 years ago

There are "girls code" events which are dominated by white females. There's no need to have one specifically for white females, except to exclude other races, There is a need for Black Girls Code as an effort to bring them into the fold. Once they are overrepresented as coders, I'd expect to see these events disappear.

Is this really so complicated for hackers to understand?

avelis• 13 years ago

I am a member of Geekdom in San Francisco and they just hosted an event there recently. It appeared to be an alive and vibrant organization from what I saw. Great turnout too. Prior to that event I had no idea Black Girls Code existed. Thanks for bringing this to Hacker News for people to see.

Here is a video of Rackspace S.F. showing their support: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Kv1Q2noU4

kn0thing6• 13 years ago

Sure thing! Thanks for spreading the word about my fundraiser!

hackinthebochs19• 13 years ago

Only a handful of comments and this is already looking like your typical reddit thread regarding anything geared towards and underrepresented minority: "what about us white men???".

I expect better from you guys. Perhaps that's my mistake.

nilved4• 13 years ago

I've used more downvotes in this thread that I have in the previous 3 years of being on Hacker News.

yetanotherphd7• 13 years ago

Good for both of you. Logical argument is only for people who have already proven that they subscribe to the progressive agenda.

Downvotes and shaming are all these privileged white boys deserve.

nawitus12• 13 years ago

How about you refute the arguments instead of mocking them like a sixth grader?

hackinthebochs19• 13 years ago

What argument? I haven't seen anything presented in a logical way that warranted a reasoned response (although others have attempted to elucidate)

tptacek7• 13 years ago

You mean how about we dignify "arguments" like your "Where're the free events to help white men code? Maybe they exist, but I haven't heard about them."

knackernews2• 13 years ago

I'm among those who think this organization isn't doing it right, but I'm a 'colored' developer. Does that make my opinion any more valid than the white men's ?

To me this is as beneficial as a 'white girls rap' bootcamp, but hey, whatever helps.

judk5• 13 years ago

"Colored Coder" has more of a ring to it...

Along with "Diaspora Developer" which hits class+immigration issues from a different angle.

hackinthebochs19• 13 years ago

Its one thing to think that "they're not doing it right", its another thing to think it is actively racist. One is an opinion, the other is idiocy.

gnarbarian5• 13 years ago

I would prefer to see these types of programming camps open to anyone interested.

What got you into coding by the way?

gdilla• 13 years ago

indeed. the HN privileged class never changes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M

makomk2• 13 years ago

Perhaps your mistake is thinking about this as something specific to Reddit in the first place. I know there are some fairly prominent groups with axes to grind who act as though racism, sexism and the patriarchy sprung into existence fully formed with the creation of Reddit, but it's always been a reflection of wider society, nothing more.

kn0thing6• 13 years ago

FWIW, "A typical reddit thread" is as ridiculous as a "typical twitter exchange" -- there over 90M people using the platform every month.

rak4• 13 years ago

I kicked in during summer of code, and I'm just not doing well enough right now to help them out again. It's good to see it on HN, but the comments are probably going to take a dive soon.

smtddr3• 13 years ago

Already has. It's impossible to talk about black people on HN.

...and there are people who think the tech-community doesn't have a problem with race....

nawitus12• 13 years ago

This program has a problem with race. It's racial segregation.

rak4• 13 years ago

I'm Black and used to being on the Internet. I just hope it doesn't discourage any young women or minorities from going into a STEM field. I wish I could tell them it gets better but it really doesn't.

AlexanderDhoore• 13 years ago

In Europe this would be inappropriate... (The "Black" in the title of the program, not the teaching girls, obviously.)

I don't think any European here would disagree. The fact that you categorise someone as "black" is just awful. How black exactly do they have to be? Are you going to measure it? Are southern Italians black? What about Turks? ... See the problem?

Edit: Just want to point out that I'm not talking about the specific word "black". Use whatever word you want. Just to put this into context: here, in Belgium, it's actually illegal to register someone's "race" (except for medical reasons).

moistgorilla• 13 years ago

I read somewhere that using african american is also bad since there are many black people that don't identify as african and don't even have african heritage. I think black is much more inclusive.

gizmo6869• 13 years ago

African-American also has the problem that not all black people identify themselves as American. Although it does lead to an interesting conversation about American imperialism when one expresses concern over how much of African governments are run by African-Americans.

fortes• 13 years ago

Also, there are plenty of non-black people who were born in Africa.

hackinthebochs19• 13 years ago

The fact that you categorise someone as "black" is just awful

Words have cultural connotations. I don't think one can make the claim that a word is "awful" by how its understood in a completely different culture.

_bfhp8• 13 years ago

Yes; try calling someone a 'spaz' in the UK.

DigitalJack• 13 years ago

I don't know how things are in europe, but blacks categorize themselves. They were called "colored" by whites, and they fought to be called negros. Black was offensive back then (60's). Then Negro suddenly became offensive and they called themselves Black which used to be offensive but no longer was. Some called themselves afro-american, and today it's predominately african american.

These days, and for decades past, it's about what they want to call themselves. Who "they" refers exactly to is mostly lost on me.

judk5• 13 years ago

I think your understanding of sociolinguistics has room to grow. Ponder how it was that those words like "colored" and "Negro" were 'suddenly' decided to be offensive.

kingkawn3• 13 years ago

That there is still comfort in referring to Blacks and What They Do as a group at all means there's a long way to go.

judk5• 13 years ago

"Poor Kids Code" would indeed be better.

Or just "Any Kids Code" and run the class in a poor neighborhood where rich parents don't want to go.

lsiclait3• 13 years ago

The About section of the Black Girls Code site says that its goal is to provide girls of color the opportunity to learn about technology and computer science. It doesn't say anything about level of wealth. So it is unclear to me how the name "Poor Kids Code" would be better

mladenkovacevic6• 13 years ago

Judk has spoken! Change your mandate to get poor people to code and not focus on any unpleasantly ethnic segments. Since all black girls are naturally born poor, they will completely fit in with all the other poor kids. Embrace judk's non-discriminating rainbow of poverty!

kaivi• 13 years ago

Indeed. I am european, and upon seeing the title, this video immediately came to my mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsVMr7NWuCU Why would anyone even arrange anything by that name? Is it supposed to be a pun? Just imagine a different title: White Girls Code, and feel the privilege it implies.

adamors• 13 years ago

Is this really the first time you see "black", as in "black people" used? It's a common term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people

Also, since a lot of people of color refer to themselves as black even in Europe, I don't see how it would be inappropriate. Unless of course the word in another language is also a racial slur.

thiht• 13 years ago

French here. I see this as inappropriate because it makes a difference between black people and non-black people, that's it. When I saw the title, I first wondered "Why not just "Girls Code"?" and then "Why not just "Kids Code"?". I think "black" here doesn't literally refer to black people but to foreigners in general, but I still don't get why they would limit this to "black" people and to girls only. In France in general, this would be poorly looked upon and referred as racist and sexist.

treenyc3• 13 years ago

I don't think it is inappropriate. I think it is stupid and inefficient to euphemize ANYTHING!

Say it like how it is.

Black girls are black girls!

Have SEX on the registration form, we don't need to change to GENDER.

I also think no joke is inappropriate given the right context. However, as a human race (one who has developed advance language as a tool) we need to education our young on becoming aware of our own interpretation of the meaning of words. Mainly, we are responsible for making up the meaning of the word we hear/read, not the person who is saying the words. And it should human-being's number one priority to listen to what others are saying.

Just listen.

People who take offense to any verbal/written communication are just NOT emotionally matured, and they may want to take offense, and that is ok. It is certainly their rights and choice to do so.

Verbal abuse doesn't exist, it is just a figment of imagination.

paper_ziggurat• 13 years ago

Verbal abuse doesn't exist, it is just a figment of imagination.

Tell that to psychologically damaged children who grew up with narcissistic parents. This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen around here. I expect this kind of stuff on reddit, but not here.

pstack2• 13 years ago

It needs to be "gender" if they are extending these opportunities to people who identify as female, regardless of biology.

Joeboy• 13 years ago

I don't think any European here would disagree. The fact that you categorise someone as "black" is just awful.

I'm from the UK, and I'm mystified as to why you think that.

Are southern Italians black? What about Turks? ... See the problem?

I see what the problem would be if the programme organizers were seeking to police the gender / ethnicity of attendees, but my guess is it's probably open to anybody who identifies as a black girl.

Irrelevant grammatical aside: Why is somebody who attends something an attendee, not an attender?

pixelcort• 13 years ago

An attender is someone to attends to the attendees. The other meaning of attend: to take care of, to look after.

eliteraspberrie3• 13 years ago

In Europe, in general, a more accurate analogy would be "Roma Girls Code."

Zenst2• 13 years ago

I tend too agree, there again I'd disagree on any form of descrimination, sex included and let us not touch upon the implied age factor as well. Fact is there are many EU `groups` that have black in the title and not deemed racist by law - good example would be the Black Police association http://www.nbpa.co.uk/ . Now there might not be a White Police association and with that again is another product of dealing with descrimination and yet at the same time sets a bad example without intent.

One way to look at this is would people be equaly or less offended if it said "White" instead of Black and with that why not stop there and have "Yellow", "Brown", see when you do that it starts to stand out as more offencive than having "Black" and that is perhaps a whole avenue of psycology than I'm up for.

In short I personaly think it and any descrimination that you have no control over is wrong, you can't pick your skin colour or gender and with that any form of descrimination be it positive or negative is setting a bad example in society when it is only trying to restore balance albiet in a way that creates inbalance in a form it is trying to prevent.

Still for every rule there is an exception, least programming teaches this.

clarkm2• 13 years ago

Just because there is an organization with that in the name doesn't mean it can't be offensive. You know what NAACP stands for, right?

fredsters_s• 13 years ago

Not true. In the UK the "NUS Black Students’ campaign represents the largest constituency of Black students in Europe and students of African, Asian, Arab and Caribbean descent, at a local and national level on all issues affecting Black students."

http://www.nus.org.uk/en/who-we-are/how-we-work/black-studen...

slurry2• 13 years ago

I realize that it's difficult to understand another culture, especially one so very different and - honestly - so much more complex and sophisticated than one's own, as the United States is in comparison with Belgium. I realize that this is hard.

Nevertheless let's try.

We can do better, HN. We can do better than "this wouldn't fly in Belgium" as the top-rated comment.

BTW: Belgium? Not historically a model for even-handed tolerance with respect to black people: https://www.google.com/search?q=king+leopold&safe=off&rlz=1C...

clarkm2• 13 years ago

Another example of wildly different standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

AKA Black Pete. Yes, people in Belgium and The Netherlands still dress up in blackface during the Christmas season.

rak4• 13 years ago

Why is being categorized as Black an inherently negative thing? You should really read up on how we historically used to be classified and categorized.

Are southern Italians black? What about Turks?

No. Black typically refers to people who are indigenous members of the African diaspora. As it's been used in the west, it's not typically resting solely on complexion (e.g they had another set of nasty names for darker people from Europe and Asia).

I understand this is highly contextual, and that there may be native categorizations that are similar to specific regions, but I hope this clarifies how it applies.

Just to put this into context: here, in Belgium, it's actually illegal to register someone's "race" (except for medical reasons).

I'm still curious why this is considered progress. As I've seen it in other countries, it doesn't do much to address racial issues in a society. The elimination of a box on state forms doesn't mean that it's somehow removed or diminished in that society.

gnarbarian5• 13 years ago

Sorry I donated all my money to the "Lesbian Eskimo Left-Handed Midget Albinos Code" [1] Charity. They are far less well represented in our industry.

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB9DSWxtsgU

mladenkovacevic6• 13 years ago

Think about your comment for a bit. Did you feel good making it? Ok, it's a free country and you have free speech.

Now consider that to most intelligent people that comment was the most useless thing they read all day.

gnarbarian5• 13 years ago

Humor is just my way of poking fun at quirks in our society.

For example why aren't we as concerned about the male domination of the sanitation industry?[1]

[1]http://jobstat.net/jobs/sanitation-worker/

tptacek7• 13 years ago

You forgot the GIF background for your dumb joke, so it kind of fell flat.

judk5• 13 years ago

Is that even true? Are you familiar with the arithmetic of how ratios work?

eliteraspberrie3• 13 years ago

African-American women are severely underrepresented in IT, so this charity is addressing that problem. They are teaching children a skill. If that really bothers you, take a minute to reflect on yourself.

nhangen15• 13 years ago

This is the argument that always baffles me. There are many reasons for that imbalance, just as there are many reasons for imbalance in other industries (sometimes in the opposite direction).

I coach youth sports, and many times the kids on my teams come from poor families. When I talk to them about their interests, not once have they mentioned or indicated that they would be prevented from pursuing that interest.

lsiclait3• 13 years ago

Growing up in the United States, I was often told that there were certain things that I could not do because I would face a glass ceiling due to my skin color. Reading history books it was clear that this was true for the people who came before me. Looking at the people who were in the positions I wanted to attain, it was clear that something was preventing people who look like me from succeeding in those fields. And listening to the comments I received from my peers, it was clear that I was not perceived in the same way as others.

I can't speak for anyone other than myself. But, from my experience, it is helpful to know that people who look like you can succeed in this world.

huxley• 13 years ago

Depends on the age, I grew up with lots of poor kids that thought they'd be able to live their dreams, then had reality harshly shoved in their faces.

My family was temporarily poor, we had resources that few of my friends had. Both of my parents had advanced educations and my parents received inheritances that helped them start a small business.

My childhood friends had nothing to fall back on, of the ones that survived into adulthood, most of them ended up poorer than their parents.

yetanotherphd7• 13 years ago

They are teaching children a skill. If that really bothers you, take a minute to reflect on yourself.

It's not the teaching of the skill in itself that is problematic, or even (in my opinion) the attempt to make up for various sources of disadvantage.

What I object to is the idea that it is of great importance to eliminate racial and gender disparities, or that our society is incredibly bad because these disparities exist. This idea is what drives articles like this to the front page of HN.

Racial and gender disparities exist for a number of reasons, not simply the oppression of one group by another. Different groups have different cultures, interests and possibly innate abilities. I don't think anyone here would want to instantly eliminate the cultural differences between Black and White people.

The claim that the differences between groups are solely attributable to disadvantage and oppression is simply a claim. It is backed up by nothing but moralizing and posturing (note the number of posts here disparaging White "kids").

I also don't think that it is possible to entirely eliminate the disadvantage that minority groups often suffer, simply because people by nature tend to favor people who are similar to themselves, by any measure. I certainly wouldn't consider it wise to go to a random country, say Israel, and mandate that all cultures and viewpoints were to have equal status in that country, and that the majority would have to give up on all aspects of their culture that were not sufficiently inclusive or friendly to minorities.

countrybama246• 13 years ago

Ah, the classic appeal to "innate abilities" and "culture" to explain why an oppressed group is disadvantaged. I guess you're asking an epistemogical question of how we can ever really "know" if oppression (slavery, sexual violence, genocide, idk how much history you've read) would explain inequality upon those lines. I don't know the answer, but I'm probably gonna go with occams razer on this one.

kwamenum86• 13 years ago

The day I left Hacker News and didn't look back. Sick and tired of this "community".

nhangen15• 13 years ago

I don't think anyone is up in arms. Those questioning the charity are simply wondering why it's OK to have a black girls code charity and not OK for a white girls code one.

Still, put us all in a room and I'm sure we'd get along fine.

hackinthebochs19• 13 years ago

why it's OK to have a black girls code charity and not OK for a white girls code one

If you have any comprehension of the racial history in the US and have to ask that then you really don't belong in this conversation.

anu_gupta• 13 years ago

This from the person who can't comprehend that calling a customer a terrorist is wrong.

gress8• 13 years ago

Who said it's not ok to have a white girls code charity?

The only people I see here are criticizing the existence of this charity for black girls, who are an already marginalized group. That's racism.

frou_dh• 13 years ago

See you on Monday.

roycehaynes• 13 years ago

Some of you understand the value of dividing and conquering, which is precisely what Black Girls Code is doing - breaking a problem into a sub-problems until eventually each solution helps solve the bigger problem.

The beauty in Black Girls Code is who it chooses to focus on (call it niche market) - Americans who historically have been downtrodden by lack of humanity attention especially in software arena.

The "digital divide" is factual and real. Why its important to address can only be understood by those who have insight or live it.

jseliger• 13 years ago

As a side note to kn0thing: you should put an e-mail address or some other contact info in your HN profile; I want to send a note about how most nonprofits get funded in the U.S., but there's no contact info available for you.

kn0thing6• 13 years ago

Duly noted. Thanks! (Added)

dupa99• 13 years ago

I have a serious question: What if title would be "White Girls Code"? Is there going be an outrage in the society?

I'm just trying to understand the racial words connotation in USA, just to not make faux pas in the future.

moron4hire2• 13 years ago

There is a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg issue with these sorts of programs that has always bothered me. I've had some experience with attempts to address diversity in subcultures, and while I agree with the goal, the methods have always rubbed me raw.

The problem is, they tend to always be ran by the majority group to try to "give a helping hand" to the minority group. It's kind of a patronizing position. I didn't need a "helping hand" to become a programmer, and women are smart enough that they don't need a "helping hand" either. And they won't want it.

Think of it this way. There is an extremely similar situation in teaching, where there aren't a lot of young males going into the field. I have had some interest in becoming a certified teacher, having done some semi-formal class programs of various types, but I know for myself I would never go to a "Get Men to Teach" type of program. I wouldn't want to be treated special. I would just want to go through the normal program and be treated no more differently, either positively or negatively, than anyone else. In addition, a lot of people don't like to be told by outsiders that they're doing something "wrong", or that they should do something differently. Someone coming to a programmer conference and espousing how great it would be if more of us got into teaching is terribly unlikely to be convincing. I think most people are probably like this, and I think that's probably why, after two solid decades of "get more X to Y", we haven't really seen an increase in Xs Ying.

And while there is a lot of blame to be placed at the feet of the in-crowd treating the out-crowd poorly, and thus driving them away, I came to a greater realization that the problem was more that the in-crowd just never socializes with the out-crowd, period. I have very few friends who are teachers, but of the few that I have, I know most of their friends are teachers. I have a lot of programmer friends. It goes all the way back to college. I didn't know any teaching students, even though I went to one of the biggest teaching universities in the country, and we tended to have a very dull view of the few we even came into contact with. They tended to have a very dull view of us. The business students were the same. The art students were the same. Hell, even the physics students were the same. We were all compartmentalized from each other in our respective departments.

Then you go to work and the programmers are in one cube farm over here, and the accountants are in another, and the designers are separate. We've managed to create a culture that sees the segregation of people by skillset as a natural thing, and never question it.

And then you get companies saying "we can't hire qualified female programmers. They just don't apply!". Frankly, I don't think open-application is any sort of reliable way to find a decent employee. The only employees that I've known to stick around for a long time were ones that came with recommendations from current employees. You see it all the time, "the importance of networking". "But we haven't done anything to keep them away!" And that is mostly true (though it is important to recognize that there are several instances where active prejudice is still a problem, I think this is a much bigger problem). But employees are people, and trying to "hire more of <adjective>" is treating them like checkboxes, not people. Well, no wonder you don't see more female programmers, because most existing programmers are already male and they don't socialize with many women, period, say nothing about ones that would be interested in programming.

Anyway, my point is, I don't think these sort of "Xs working to get not-Xs to do more Y" are ever going to work, so long as the Xs mostly socialize with Xs. You want to find more black designers? Make more friends of black people. You want to find more female programmers? Make more friends of women. They are out there. While you personally may have not done anything to drive them away, you're also not doing anything to make them a whole part of your life, either. It will always be the case that men will be over represented in programming so long as men are the gate keepers into programming organizations and men do not do more to socialize with women as peers--with the complete reverse situation being true for women and men in teaching. And while you personally didn't ask to be the de facto gate keeper to your industry, the state of things is that you are. Tough shit. Play the hand you're dealt.

EDIT: long-story short, "Get more X to Y" is still treating the Xs as "others". These types of programs perpetuate that cycle. The answer is to eliminate the otherness of whatever property we're concerned about today.

kn0thing6• 13 years ago

The problem is, they tend to always be ran by the majority group to try to "give a helping hand" to the minority group. It's kind of a patronizing position. I didn't need a "helping hand" to become a programmer, and women are smart enough that they don't need a "helping hand" either. And they won't want it.

I'm a white guy from Brooklyn who's been successful in tech -- I'm not running this organization, I'm just doing a crowdtilt fundraiser for it.

http://www.blackgirlscode.com/about-bgc.html

moron4hire2• 13 years ago

Yeah, I realize that is the case here. My intention was more to head-off the sort of comments that one tends to find in these sorts of threads that try to deny that any problem exists just because the speaker doesn't have an active hand in the problem.

But, at the same time, there is a significant problem with the way that people have been trying to address the issue of diversity in general, because it doesn't seem like any progress is being made.

There is a lot of prejudice in the world, and it can be overt as in the case of someone specifically ignoring resumes from people not matching their sex or race. And it can be subversive, such as people subconsciously paying more attention to people more like themselves than people less like themselves.

I personally believe it's this latter form that is the reason that lack of diversity continues to be an issue. There is not a single aspect of our American culture in which we do not compartmentalize people. We still have sitcoms built on the tropes of housework-inept dads and shopaholic moms. We still have separate boys' and girls' happy meal toys. And because of that, I don't think it's surprising that tackling diversity in one of the leaf-node areas has largely failed.

_bfhp8• 13 years ago

I don't need White Boys Code. I'm a white male who learned to code when I was about 12 years old, at an NYIT summer program that my parents paid for. My high school had enough coding classes (including AP) that I could take one every year. My parents could afford to buy me a computer and they and others didn't stigmatize me for spending hours on it. I don't need White Boys Code and neither do white-boys-in-general.

I guess this is a lot of stuffy white dude HNers' first interaction with a little thing called identity politics. Surely no white bystander questioned why the Black Panthers weren't called the People Panthers (and they did provide a plethora of community services, they weren't just a militia group[0]); we're at a time where, after black radical politics was systematically destroyed by the US government and police , white-people-in-general sort of exude this attitude of "you seem to have won [read: lost], stop rioting [i.e. Trayvon] and trying to organize around identity because we live in a post-racial society now and any mention of race, or exclusion of whiteness, is Racism."

But actually: “Just as the capitalist system is not a capitalist plot, so racial oppression is not the work of “racists.” It is maintained by the principal institutions of society, including the schools (which define “excellence”), the labor market (which defines “employment”), the legal system (which defines “crime”), the welfare system (which defines “poverty”), the medical industry (which defines “health”), and the family (which defines “kinship”). Many of these institutions are administered by people who would be offended if accused of complicity with racial oppression.” (that's Noel Ignatiev).

So, the ultimate solution for those who recognize race as a force of institutional violence and marginalization (rather than an outdated idea, because hey explicitly racist speech and laws are impolite now!) would be to dismantle those exact systems and rebuild without any idea of whiteness at all -- "white skin would have as little social importance as big feet." But if you try to do that, at best you're lonely, and at worst you're killed (Obama can assassinate terrorists on US soil, remember).

So Black Girls Code is doing what can be done right now to help a severely marginalized, invisible group (you have to remember the experience of young girls in the US [1][2][3]) get into a field that is basically guaranteed employment if they develop interest and go with it long enough.

If you're white, especially a white guy, no one cares about your Very Reasonable And Logical opinion or how this makes you Very Uncomfortable on the Internet.

[0] http://www.stanford.edu/group/blackpanthers/programs.shtml

[1] http://reelgirl.com/2013/11/im-not-a-pilot-im-a-pilots-wife-...

[2] http://www.metafilter.com/121190/teenage-girls-they-havent-b...

[3] http://sodisarmingdarling.tumblr.com/post/34106027759/what-i...

yetanotherphd7• 13 years ago

The one fact we can all agree on is that Black people, and women, are both underrepresented among programmers, and Black people in general economically disadvantaged.

My understanding is that this program should be seen in the context of a political movement that sees this under-representation as an example of systematic oppression by a society that privileges White males. This oppression comes in the form of discrimination in employment, unequal access to education, and stereotypes that guide White males towards higher paid careers. The movement sees eliminating this oppression as a very high priority.

There are two points where I disagree with this movement. First, there may be explanations of this underrepresentation that are unrelated to oppression. These include lack of interest in programming (due to cultural differences in values), cultural differences in how education is valued, and genetic differences in personality and intelligence.

Second, I think that it is natural and inevitable that the majority culture be dominant, and this has social and economic implications. For example, Israel is fundamentally a Jewish nation, and this implies that Jewish values, culture etc. are dominant in that society. While many Israelis explain economic and social inequality in Israel as a result of the backwardness of Muslims, I think the truth is that really this is just another instance of the inevitable trend in societies. So I would like to curb the worst excesses of inequality that result from different races/cultures living together but I do not see inequality as a something terrible that must be eliminated entirely.

kingkawn3• 13 years ago

It is not helpful to blanket condemn the HN community. Yes, the vast majority are white men. Yes, a significant portion hold political positions on minority peoples that do not take into account the history and structural disadvantages of being both not-white and not-male. But that position is a meaningful way to survive in a system that for hundreds of years would have punished or killed even white men for acknowledging the humanity and difficulties of those peoples.

So, while I disagree with them, telling them that they're all assholes is useless.

Building equality is not a zero-sum game between those who-have and those who don't. It is the elevation of our collective humanity through empathy.

_bfhp8• 13 years ago

Although you have to realize that there are people who see 'equality' as mythological, based on analyses of gender and race that see them as inherently hierarchical through their social construction (basic reasoning reveals that race isn't just skin color and gender is not sex organs and characteristics). Unfortunately these people are few in number, and they're mostly women and non-white people, so no-one listens to them anyway.

If we sympathize with those folks, HN comment threads become even more futile.

kingkawn3• 13 years ago

I understand that it seems like it will magnify the futility, but the way you are describing is the way that has been tried forever. It has resulted in slow change, usually only being realized when society as a whole has been influenced enough to forget the old perspective.

There's a lot of power into both taking the full fears of another into consideration while simultaneously trying to present the full fears of their Other to them.

gdubs• 13 years ago

And, perhaps predictably, a noble post falls off the front page as the discussion devolves into a cartoonish dust ball of chest-beating, setting off the flame-war detectors. The girls lose, but thank god the opinionated "experts" on US racial politics have had their moment.

nicolethenerd• 13 years ago

My 2 cents (not that anybody asked). I teach computer science at an predominantly black all-girls school in Brooklyn - my students are exactly the demographic that this organization is targeting. And I think its great - the more opportunities we can provide for these girls, the better, and Black Girls Code looks like an organization that has done a lot of good - I'm looking forward to seeing them come to Brooklyn.

But the name does bother me a bit, too. Not because 'racism!', but because while it accomplishes the goal of making it clear that this is a safe space for black girls, it raises the question "am I welcome here?" for anyone who isn't black. And a handful of my students aren't black (they're Hispanic) - afaik, they are welcome there too - from the website it looks like Black Girls Code is looking to provide opportunities for all girls of color - but as a teacher, I'd like to be able to just say to my class, "hey, you should all check out this awesome event/opportunity" without it turning into a discussion about race. Plus, I have no idea whether I, as a white woman, would be welcome there as a volunteer? I'm used to being the only white person in a classroom full of students of color - that's not something that's ever been an issue at school - but at a place called Black Girls Code, I'd have to wonder whether my help might not be wanted.

Help me bring Black Girls Code to Brooklyn - I'm matching the first $5K

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