Google Destroys Rap Genius’ Search Result Rankings As Punishment For SEO Spam

http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/25/google-rap-genius/

by acremades • 13 years ago

111 98 13 years ago

loceng• 13 years ago

They got greedy is all that happened. They were essentially at the top - but wanted to take the whole pie for themselves, instead of perhaps naturally getting there.

ihatehandles2• 13 years ago

Rules are rules, but do they deserve a pardon?

octatone2• 13 years ago

No.

ihatehandles2• 13 years ago

Yeah I guess you're right. Rap Genius' well-known brand aside, if they treat them differently to how they would penalize an unknown tiny site then that's a can of worms they won't be able to rid themselves of.

moocowduckquack• 13 years ago

Now RapGenius.com doesn’t appear on the first page of results for a search of “Rap Genius”

Readjusting their rankings is one thing, but that is just google breaking their own service. If people have typed "rap genius" into google, there is a reasonable chance that they might want to get to the thing named "rap genius", which is on page 5 in the search I just did.

And the thing is, that nearly all the rest of the results are not for rap geniuses, which presumably would be another reason for searching the term, but are just blogs and news sites reporting about the company Rap Genius.

edit -

Given that the public are fairly ambivalent about google and so are not likely to take google's side too much in stuff like this, and if you can get your rating fixed afterward by being nice, couldn't a public spat with google like this actually be good publicity, compared to google not making that much of a fuss and merely adjusting their rankings to adjust for the seo tactics used, rather than acting punitively.

If I was looking at this as a marketing droid, all I would see is that google have replaced the position my main site used to take, with loads of articles about my company that then link to my site, which makes it look as though loads of folk are interested in the company while Google are publicly burying the link, which sparks people's curiousity.

Is not that I think gaming the ranking is particularly good business practice, I just don't think this is particularly good tactics on google's part.

llamataboot4• 13 years ago

No, this is google enforcing a harsh penalty for one site to discourage other people from trying to game search which basically makes us all suffer through content farm links, etc.

HelloMcFly• 13 years ago

I don't agree. I see the need for punishment of this kind of behavior, but removing the site from a Google search that seems to specifically be looking for that site is a bridge too far in my book.

minimaxir• 13 years ago

NOTE: There is an update not in the original report, apparently RG is working with Google to resolve the issue:

We are working with Google right now to resolve this. They’ve been really great, helping us identify changes we need to make, even on Christmas. We’re working on it as fast as we can, and expect to be back on Google very soon.

It sucks to be off Google for us and for the thousands of our community members who have worked so hard to create what’s often the best search result.

We hope everyone who reads this will take a little time out from their Christmas and head to Rap Genius and sign up so you can contribute your knowledge on your favorite subjects – becoming a member of our community makes the site way more fun. Merry Christmas

itsprofitbaron• 13 years ago

By working with Google they mean they're going to work with them to identify the links they need to clean up, try and get those links "cleaned up" themselves, submit a disavow file and then get them to reconsider the site as outlined here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6963785

It happens all the time and no disrespect to RapGenius, to companies much bigger than them.

walshemj3• 13 years ago

And for far less reason.

ColinWright• 13 years ago

Main discussion is over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6963365

Adding to the discussion here will probably just duplicate what's being said over there.

flexie• 13 years ago

Still, the real story here is that almost all small businesses depend on the mercy of one giant corporation. This Google monstrosity / police man should be split up into smaller, competing search engines.

sanswork• 13 years ago

You realize the impossibility of this and this is a joke comment right?

glesica2• 13 years ago

The suggested solution may have been a joke (although it is not without precedent) but the analysis was spot-on IMHO.

JHSheridan3• 13 years ago

Ever heard of Bing, DuckDuckGo, Yahoo, etc.? Google just does it better than anyone else at the moment.

Now I'm not saying Google doesn't have a de facto monopoly, but I'm wary of anyone who says a private company should be forced to split. Should they be punished for being the most popular?

fleitz2• 13 years ago

Good thing google is public rather than private.

aroman2• 13 years ago

Frankly I think it's an inherently monopolistic industry.

In the current state of affairs (i.e. web browser interfaces and mobile phone integration), it's quite inconvenient for people to switch up their search engine regularly, or even use multiple ones regularly.

With say, supermarkets, it's pretty easy to shop at Acme one day, Trader Joes another, and Superfresh the third. Search engines aren't like this, or at least, we haven't figured out a way to use them in a way that is conducive to fast-paced, low-barrier-to-entry (or at least not astronomically expensive barrier to entry) competition. Maybe we should.

llamataboot4• 13 years ago

bang commands on DDG come pretty close. I use DDG as my primary search, but in reality I use about 20 different commands for specific searches on any given day, including quite a bit of google search and wolfram alpha. Not saying these commands will ever see wide use, but I find it a convenient platform for lots of different search engines.

angryasian2• 13 years ago

I don't see why its not just as easy to switch to other search engines. If Google is beating these other search engines purely because they are a better product then there is nothing monopolistic here.

The reality is that the barrier is very low. Blekko, DDG, bing, yahoo, and we can go back even farther and list more search engines. Nothing is stopping them other than their own engineering resources. Your entire argument is saying Google is better and out innovating the competitors so we should punish them.

bobbyi_settv2• 13 years ago

But in this case, we would have been worse off. It's hard to imagine that a fragmented ecosystem of smaller search engines would all reacted this quickly to a case of someone engaging in blackhat SEO, so there'd be a lot more temptation for sites to try to get away with this sort of thing.

absconditus• 13 years ago

Online startups comprise a small portion of all small businesses. Most small businesses do not rely on Google.

sliverstorm2• 13 years ago

Why do they depend on Google's mercy? What does Google provide them, that they must have and cannot be had elsewhere?

To phrase differently and hint at what I am suggesting- if Google provides something that companies cannot live without, what did companies do before there was Google?

klrr• 13 years ago

Google provide them users.

steveklabnik• 13 years ago

Why do they depend on Google's mercy?

http://readwrite.com/2010/02/11/how_google_failed_internet_m...

nathancahill• 13 years ago

Google has been around since the beginning.

notdrunkatall• 13 years ago

what did companies do before there was Google?

They didn't.

ksherlock• 13 years ago

Before the search that we know of today, there were directories (see http://dmoz.org for example) where you submitted your site. Originally it was a list, then a hierarchal list, then there so many entries they let you search their database, then they crawl the web to find other sites, then they search the _content_ of other sites, so you can see how it evolved.

Web rings and pages of links to other sites were also common, basically what RG did, but more reciprocal.

HCIdivision17• 13 years ago

Remember, Google is quite large, and hence also inhomogenous. Some time ago the Chrome browser team did something that could be construed as a service-for-links campaign, an the PageRank team penalized Chrome for two weeks (if I recall correctly - commentary on this [0]).

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3422386

hnriot• 13 years ago

"small businesses depend on the mercy of one giant corporation" - this can't really be blamed on google. It's hardly their fault they are the best at search. If someone comes along with something better people will use that. on the interwebs there's no such thing as brand loyalty. Going forward the internet's biggest problem is security. With hackers pulling millions of credit cards from Target and seldom a day goes by without reading about some big corp getting hacked, people will more and more look to big corporations like google that can hire the best security minds for their online protection. Using google gives you some degree of trust that the sites in the results are there for a reason, people they aren't scams or bogus companies. Google is the internet's filter, and in this case with RG I am not sure that i don't side with google. There are plenty of alternatives to RG. I don't see why anyone would care much about song lyrics, but it's not like RG are the only game in town.

chrismcb3• 13 years ago

How would you split it up? By category? Google A can only search for words that begin with A, or are about Apples and arch-rivals (but you need to go to Google R to search for rivals) Its not like no other search engines exist.

paulhauggis• 13 years ago

This is why your business shouldn't rely on it. I initially rely on it to get users, but then get info like email addresses, so if they ever decide to make changes in their algo and I drop rankings, I am still in business.

Natsu• 13 years ago

We all depend on one search engine and will quickly abandon it when it doesn't provide the results we want. Remember Altavista? Yahoo? All those other has-beens?

Also, you can pay for advertising rather than expecting to be entitled to organic results. Nobody forces anyone to build a Google-supported business and frankly, people really shouldn't be doing that for this very reason. It's not a good idea to live at Google's mercy.

benguild• 13 years ago

It's probably a temporary ban that will last up to 90 days once appealed.

bobbyi_settv2• 13 years ago

What grounds would they have for appealing? They haven't denied the original email posted was authentic. It seems to be black and white that they were engaging in blackhat SEO.

cabbeer• 13 years ago

30 days.

bhartzer2• 13 years ago

Here generally is not a timeframe involved in this. Is google penalized them then they received a manual penalty for unnatural links. They will have to identify all the links that are unnatural, contact all those site owners and try to take get the links taken down. Or disavow them and show a huge effort was made... And tell google that they won't do it again through a reconsideration request. Unless google makes an exception, it is taking at least five days or more for google to respond to RRs. And even then, once a penalty is lifted, the site won't necessarily come back quickly.

znowi• 13 years ago

We are working with Google right now to resolve this. They’ve been really great, helping us identify changes we need to make.

As if they don't know what they did. These guys are toxic. I'd ban them for a year.

olalonde• 13 years ago

[...] to create what’s often the best search result.

Poor them, they created the best lyrics site in the world, they deserve to be the first search result! /sarcasm

yeukhon• 13 years ago

Give them the credit for trying to resolve a problem. Are you telling me if you run a business you would never this kind of mistake?

It is a good idea to explain why they did it and what they were thinking, instead of just say "damn I screwed up." I rather hear people explain to me why they did it and they now think they screw up. It is part of resolution.

If you don't care about explanation (or excuse if you think that's the right erm), well, fine.

ryanhuff• 13 years ago

What company leadership allowed to happen shows a real disrespect for one of the primary risks to the business. Without having the explanation that you described, the two most likely explanations in my mind are either this was standard practice all along (finally got caught), or somebody made one of those epic fail business decisions. If its #1, I doubt we'll see a clear explanation. If its #2, somebody may have to fall on the sword as the "poster child" of bad business decisions.

JoachimSchipper• 13 years ago

Are you telling me if you run a business you would never this kind of mistake?

It's not that hard to, you know, not spam.

chrismcb3• 13 years ago

Wasn't the first thing they said was "damn we screwed up" AND "everyone else does it?"

zmitri4• 13 years ago

Seems toxic to lay such claims without getting to know someone personally. Have they done you wrong?

Perhaps you are uninterested in rap music, perhaps you believe in staunch professionalism, but at least have respect for an individual's choice to live to their life as they please. Success isn't truly success unless you do it while being yourself.

There is a reason you don't have the power to ban them for a year. Rap Genius was built with love - a reflection of the founders - and is a vastly superior product. If you had ever used it, you would clearly see that. You are blinded by hate my friend.

dkuntz23• 13 years ago

I'm sorry, did they not, with "malice aforethought", blatantly disregard Google's terms. And then brag about it? And, after being called on it, issue a not-really apology that basically said "fuck you, we do what we want"?

newnewnew2• 13 years ago

"These guys are toxic. I'd ban them for a year."

Wow, the hate is strong with this one.

coin• 13 years ago

Article content is interesting. But -1 for disabling pinchzoom, as it severely impacts usability on mobile devices.

sixQuarks• 13 years ago

my first instinct is to hate these guys, probably because I feel they are just doing an act. But going beyond my initial kneejerk reaction, I do have to admit they are doing something different (as far as their "act" goes). Game changers almost never go with the flow, so whether you hate them or love them, at least they're not following the crowds.

benched• 13 years ago

So, the best lyric site by a mile no longer shows up in ordinary Google lyric searches. As a music fanatic, searching lyrics is something I do all day long every day, by the way - and when I search lyrics in Google, I really want to go to rap genius. Anyway, supposedly this degradation of Google had to happen to make a public example, and most of us are ok with it because the founders of RG are known to be kind of jerky and unprofessional, and we loves professionalism cause the more we love it, the more it makes us look professional.

Just checking I'm still on the right planet. Yup, I definitely am.

mbel2• 13 years ago

and when I search lyrics in Google, I really want to go to rap genius.

So, isn't it easier (and faster) to go directly to rapgenius or create custom search keyword in the browser, than ask google for the lyrics?

001sky• 13 years ago

when I search lyrics in Google, I really want to go to rap genius

Sounds like a wasted step. Go to your site and search it. Or has it outsourced that (/expectation) to Google?

Even then, search {site: XYZ} in the g box and be done with it.

badman_ting3• 13 years ago

Their search engine isn't very good, as is the case with most sites. There's a reason why everyone uses Google to find things.

julespitt• 13 years ago

So, I guess the best site in any category should be above the rules then?

And come on - the idea that people only have a problem with the founders because they want to appear professional themselves is ridiculous. "Kind of jerky and unprofessional" is a staggering understatement.

charleslmunger2• 13 years ago

If you want your results from rapgenius, that's why site:rapgenius.com exists.

badman_ting3• 13 years ago

Mmmm, we all love typing that.

qq66• 13 years ago

You should try Bing for lyrics search. I've already made it the default engine on my phone.

lelandbatey• 13 years ago

Or, if you value privacy, you can use Duckduckgo.com which still ranks RapGenius plenty high.

newnewnew2• 13 years ago

The hate seems to be coming because they're "unprofessional", "disrespectful", "juvenile" and "arrogant" - like people in the hip hop industry haven't heard that before.

Don't listen to the haters. Stay on the grind.

devanti• 13 years ago

People build sites that are very good all the time, often 'the best site for X by a mile', but they don't make it to the top because of poor SEO or marketing. Just because they are a good product doesn't mean they get to the top. RapGenius should be no different.

And what about the majority of people who simply want their lyrics, instead of all those messy annotations? The other sites give me that and that's why they've been at the top for the past decade.

chrismcb3• 13 years ago

So why not just use Google to search rapgenious? I mean if you KNOW you want to go to rapgenius, and rapgenius's search isn't good. Just use google and tell google to search only rapgenius.

angryasian2• 13 years ago

are they only the best lyric site until they have to monetize ?

bhartzer2• 13 years ago

Who needs google? Why don't you just go directly to rap genius and bypass search altogether?

DominikR• 13 years ago

supposedly this degradation of Google had to happen to make a public example

How exactly did you come to the conclusion that this is some kind of public example?

Punishing websites that that are caught engaging in black hat SEO seems to be pretty consistent with what Google has done in the past.

And it's not like this is bad for search users because I doubt that we would prefer having link farms with useless content as the top result for every search query.

because the founders of RG are known to be kind of jerky and unprofessional, and we loves professionalism cause the more we love it, the more it makes us look professional.

Who cares if the founders of RG are jerks or not? I'm incapable of understanding what you are trying to say here.

Grue3• 13 years ago

Best maybe for you. It doesn't have any of the stuff I'm listening to, so it's pretty much worthless to me.

csomar• 13 years ago

Google is actually penalizing its users' as they'll have less useful results instead of the best possible results.

Google is not supposed to be the Internet police. It's supposed to analyze the best sites, and rank them. Rap Genius getting some spammy links doesn't make it a better site; but it doesn't make it worse either.

The next thing we are going to see is a Google Justice Department?

ScottWhigham• 13 years ago

I'd like to hear from someone who downvoted you with an explanation about why. I genuinely don't understand - you've made a logical post but clearly 1-5 people have disagreed and you're now on the bottom of the page in light, light gray (downvoted). I'm struggling to grasp the "Why?"

dragonwriter• 13 years ago

Taking action which poses a stron disincentive to the kind of black hat SEO campaign RG was runnin benefits Google's users—tolerating such an action (especially as widely piblicized as RG's campaign had become) would have hurt Google's users far more than penalizing RG ever could.

SethMurphy2• 13 years ago

Google isn't the only way to access the internet. All this complaining of not being able to type "rap genius" in google to go to the site sounds real juvenile, doesn't even rise to first world problem status. Try typing rapgenius.com and using their search mechanism. These actions may stop some of their growth, but should not be a hinderance to anyone complaining here.

walshemj3• 13 years ago

It wasn't brand search terms that they where monetizing - they where obviously targeting general rap related terms by doing some very dark hat SEO

SethMurphy2• 13 years ago

Google goes after anything it considers abuse with a bit of punitive damage, which seems fair to me. This is not a simple correction but punishment of past abuse in order to deter future abuse. The correction will come after the links are removed and their sentence is served.

knodi• 13 years ago

I just watch the video in the article and I have to say are the founders really like this in real life or is it all an act?

dimitar• 13 years ago

I laughed out loud when I realized this (I was searching for Tyler, the Creator lyrics) - instead of filing a page with their links, now they are nowhere to be found. Checked my watch and it was still December'13 so something is wrong.

The annotations have really degraded in quality - there used to be some very good ones that gave you context and explained complex puns and references and now you have 9gag style memes.

The RapGenius story and characters become more and more fit for a movie making fun of the whole internet industry.

tzs• 13 years ago

I occasionally search for lyrics. If I know the name of the artist and song, I search for those with the word lyrics added. If I have a line from the song I'll type that and add lyrics.

I don't think I've ever noticed a Rap Genius result. To check this, I just searched for a few lyrics on Bing (where presumably Rap Genius is not penalized), and did not get any Rap Genius results. I even tried some Justin Bieber lyrics searches because I believe the links that got Rap Genius in trouble had to do with Bieber songs. Nothing on Bing.

Could someone give some examples of searches that used to include Rap Genius high in the results?

Shorel• 13 years ago

Is there any hope for less softonic results now?

fiatjaf• 13 years ago

RapGenius is not that good. It's heavy. AZ Lyrics has many ads, but it's pure text. Good for lyrics. I don't really want comments in the lyrics I search for.

Google Destroys Rap Genius’ Search Result Rankings As Punishment For SEO Spam

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