Ask HN: Do you cold-contact peers when considering working at a company?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6823789

by mandytolliver • 13 years ago

21 40 13 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I'm thinking about my next software development job. I think I might find a developer in a similar job in a company, cold-email them, and ask a few questions about what it's really like to work there. (I'll include a link to my personal site so that they understand I'm worth responding to.)

I'll be more comfortable talking to them rather applying for a job directly which makes me seem needy.

They'll probably be more honest and open than a hiring manager. And if it goes well, they may pass on my resume.

I'm surprised that I haven't heard this done more often. Have you tried this? Does it work for you? Or does it seem rude?

brodyp• 13 years ago

Yes, I've learned a lot and made some good industry contacts this way. You have to do it gently though -- people are jealous of there time unless they understand you are a colleague worthy of respect.

amys• 13 years ago

If you contact the manager/VP directly, then as long as you write a good email and include some professional links, you'll usually get a response.

Contacting a peer has advantages, but on the other hand the manager gives you a straighter path to a job -- if you decide that that's what you want.

scottalpert• 13 years ago

Of course you mean doing this BEFORE any interview. (After the first interview, hopefully they'd set you up with people to talk to.)

mandytolliver12• 13 years ago

Sure thing, this is about the exploration stage when I am just wondering what workplaces are right for me.

amarantha• 13 years ago

We developers keep hearing that we need to do "networking." In general, I don't even know what that means -- but here is an excellent example of what you should do.

jonnathanson• 13 years ago

Well, yes and no. The point of "networking" is to develop a web of connections within one's industry (or within the business world in general). Build a strong enough network, the theory goes, and you'll never have to go in cold. You may not know someone at every company out there, but if you've got a strong network, you'll get a referral from someone you know who knows someone there.

The worst time to be networking is when you're looking for a new job. (That's not to say you shouldn't do it; it's just a bad time to be starting the process.) The best time to network is when you're not looking. When you've got no hidden, job-seeking agenda in mind, you're psychologically in a less desperate and more genuinely curious place. And the people you talk to will be less skeptical or cynical, because they'll see that you're not just using them to get a job. The "networking" becomes less transactional and more social, and the connections developed are more likely to be mutually interesting and beneficial.

That's not to say that reaching out to someone within a company is a bad thing, even when applying for a job. Indeed, it's better to have anyone on the inside than to drop a resume completely blind. And it's better to get the inside scoop on a company that's made you an offer than to accept the offer without diligence. Ideally, though, you don't want your first contact with someone inside the company to be simultaneous to your application to work there.

Much more can be said about "networking" -- how to do it, when to do it, ethical considerations about it, social qualms about it, or even whether "networking" is really a less ideal form of some other, presumably more meaningful activity (e.g., making friends on an agenda-free basis). But I'll leave those considerations for a different discussion.

mandytolliver12• 13 years ago

Thank you folks. I'm still wondering though -- why don't we hear of this more often?

wsxcde• 13 years ago

I haven't done exactly this but I have "cold" contacted people who I had some sort of connection with - same college, common friends, etc.

I usually mention this in my e-mail saying something like "I'm contacting you because we both did X so I thought it might be alright to bother you."

mandytolliver12• 13 years ago

Thanks, that makes sense. But if you don't know anyone, why not find some developer and their email address (a bit of Google-Fu will do it) and contact them?

To me, it seems polite enough.

Wouldn't _you_ answer such an email if it was polite and seemed to come from a serious developer?

loumf4• 13 years ago

Of course I would -- it's hard to find people. Some companies give referral bonuses to incent their employees to recruit on their behalf. If the idea is to get "inside information", I think it will fail (or at least, hope it will). Not treating company information as secret (especially to strangers) is a sign of a dysfunctional organization.

If it's just "feel" that you are looking for -- then I think you'll get that.

rodrodrod2• 13 years ago

Yeap. Being on the employed side of things now, I've had acquaintances reach out to me with questions about the company/work/culture and ask me to pass their resume along. It's only a few minutes of my time and people are quite appreciative of it, so I'm always happy to help out.

mandytolliver12• 13 years ago

Thanks. For some of these companies, I don't know anyone. Would you just cold-email someone, even if you didn't have any acquaintances there?

rodrodrod2• 13 years ago

I wouldn't, for the most part. Not saying that it would or wouldn't work out, but I don't feel comfortable with doing that. Going through friends who might know someone there could help, as that way you wouldn't be a complete stranger. The only instances where I might do so is if I know someone there with which we share the same background (e.g. same college) which provides some sort of common ground.

I've only ever cold e-mailed recruiters (or some job listing e-mail), which is pretty much expected.

myth_drannon2• 13 years ago

I will not reply to you or if I do my response will be neutral. An employee can get in trouble if he is critical of his current employer.

mandytolliver12• 13 years ago

I completely agree.

But it's still possible to respond neutrally, truthfully, and informatively.

For example, it's possible to just answer with positive aspects and leave out the negatives--that's still valuable info.

Or someone can honestly talk about whether the culture is, for example, high-energy or more laid-back -- each has its advantages.

Are you saying that it is _not_ at all worth cold-emailing a peer in a potential workplace?

myth_drannon2• 13 years ago

"neutrally, truthfully, and informatively" is very subjective. I don't believe it will give you any insights. The only thing that can give you some sort of vague idea of the workplace is check the Linkedin profiles of ex-employees, how long they stayed there (doesn't work for new startups...) ? Even better if they are part of some sort of meetup, you can casually meet them and chat, but that's borderline stalking :)

impendia2• 13 years ago

I am on the hiring committee at a university mathematics department. As such, I read a bunch of rec letters. All of them are positive and praise the applicants. But, some of them say things like "Candidate X ingeniously solved Problem Y which I, along with Famous People A, B, and C, had no idea how to do." And others just say "Candidate X is diligent, cheerful, and a hard worker."

In short, +1 to the parent comment. It should definitely be possible to gain useful information from an e-mail that focuses on the positives.

auctiontheory• 13 years ago

You can do this, but you'd be much better off finding a common connection, perhaps through LinkedIn. No company is perfect, but someone who knows you only through a cold email would be a fool to trust you with criticism of his employer.

I'm not sure why you think that your personal site proves that you're "worth responding to." The problem with your post is that it's all about you - you're not thinking of what's in it for the recipient of your email, or what risks it poses for them.

mandytolliver12• 13 years ago

OK, getting a referral is good.

The link to my personal site has the role of a resume -- it is to show that I'm not sure random person off the street, I am someone who may well be worth recruiting.

The idea is that the contact will see that a serious, experienced, front-end designer/developer just made contact and may well want to pitch their company to me.

I'm not looking for them to slag off their company, of course.

I am fine being pitched to, but I'd prefer that a fellow developer does this.

stevewilhelm• 13 years ago

I would try something slightly different. Use a 'Trojan Horse' topic or subject. Email saying you are trying to use the company's product or service in a current project.

Ask them questions about the product or service. If they are enthusiastic and helpful, that will be an indicator that the company is a good place to work. If they don't respond, or forward you to marketing or sales, that tells you something else about the company.

After the initial contact, you might then ask questions about the company in general. Something like: we like the product, but are unsure if the company will be around in a year, etc. At that point the developer might just give you the standard company line, or might be more forth coming.

mandytolliver12• 13 years ago

Thanks, and I think you could combine the two in a softball opener.

For example, you could say -- "Developing Augmented Reality apps fascinates me, and Example.com seems to be a leader. Do you really get to do leading-edge work in Augmented Reality there?"

loumf4• 13 years ago

Starting off a relationship with a series of lies (even small ones) isn't a good idea. If you are actually trying to use the product, great -- if not, there are plenty of truthful openings.

dmourati• 13 years ago

When I applied, I used Glassdoor/Facebook/LinkedIn to search through my current social/professional network and to find people one layer removed from me who worked at my now current company. I then asked my contacts how well they knew the employees at my current company. One was able to put me in touch via email. I contacted the employee via email, said I need 15 minutes to chat with him and that it needed to be fast because I was going in for an interview that afternoon. He never got back to me but wound up being one of my interviewers. Obviously, I got the job.

Short version, showing interest helps. Showing you are connected helps.

mandytolliver12• 13 years ago

Good idea!

You got the best of both worlds: Even though you didn't know anyone, you were able to contact someone who you were already "connected" to.

calcsam• 13 years ago

Offer to take them out to lunch. Keep the email short. Five sentences or less.

That usually works.

loumf4• 13 years ago

This is commonly called an "informational interview".

I don't get how applying for a job makes you seem needy, though. If there's actually a job opening and you are qualified for it, then why not apply? I think of informational interviews as being a way to network into jobs that don't exist (or before they are posted)

mandytolliver12• 13 years ago

Employers often prefer passive candidates to actives--it's the "playing hard to get" thing.

As to the informational interview -- is that also the term used when the candidate makes contact to a peer? If so, then it's good to know that the concept exists.

loumf4• 13 years ago

The term is used for candidate generated interviews with whoever they can get them with (usually through their network). It's often used to generate a position or to be top-of-mind by a set of companies when they open a position. It's a short leap from there to what you are saying.

Setting up informational interviews (to me, someone who has been hiring developers for 20+ years) is a sign of maturity. I think of such a person as "active", but knows enough not to put a resume in a pile. It only assures them of a real interview -- not the job (they jump to the top of the pile)

I personally would never apply blind.

dustingetz• 13 years ago

I do this quite aggressively about local companies but i know them and have mutual respect through meetups. Once you have a relationship you get lots of inside info that they would NEVER say to a stranger.

impendia2• 13 years ago

I did this, with great success, when I was applying to math graduate schools.

I was in an unusual situation -- had been out of school for five years, and so did not have any useful contacts. So I browsed the personal home pages of graduate students at programs I was interested in, e-mailed several of them out of the blue, and asked them about what they liked about their programs.

For the most part, they were wonderfully supportive. I got several very substantive and encouraging replies, and learned some useful information about programs I was interested in. I'm very glad I did it.

The situation was somewhat different from OP's --- I didn't want anything from them (and indeed there was nothing they could have done for me) other than to reply to my messages. In particular, I didn't entertain the thought of sending them a resume to pass on (it wouldn't have helped).

So different situation, but for me it worked.

mandytolliver12• 13 years ago

Wow, great! And the idea of getting my resume passed on is very much secondary -- the main purpose here is informational only -- I want to learn about the company.

SandB0x2• 13 years ago

When I was a minion at a medium sized software company, if you had emailed me at my work address I would have either not replied or would have done so very cautiously.

If we had met through friends or at a meetup, I'd have been happy to talk to you much more openly about my job and the workplace.

The best developers I know have contacts all over town. They occasionally go along to meetups and user-groups on things they are interested in - not in a cynical way, they just enjoy chatting to like-minded folk and learning.

I would suggest you start doing the same, with the warnings about appearing desperate as mentioned in jonnathanson's comment. You don't have to sacrifice your personal/family life, just go along to a meetup on some technology/language/topic of interest once or twice a month, be friendly and personable, swap details with any like-minded people and stay in touch with them on occasion.

joe_the_user• 13 years ago

The best developers I know have contacts all over town. They occasionally go along to meetups and user-groups on things they are interested in, not in a cynical way, and just enjoy chatting to like-minded folk.

Interesting. Seeing it laid that way, one could easily see that as selection bias. The good developers you know have contacts all over town. The good developers you don't know don't have contact all over town and so you don't know and can't compare them to the developers you know.

Not that this an argument against socializing, just the opposite.

SandB0x2• 13 years ago

I understand what you're saying but I am referring to people I've worked with.

I'm not saying that there is no bias in that observation or that a certain kind of networking will somehow turn into you an amazing developer. Maybe people who make themselves part of a community will learn (or learn about) useful skills from their friends/peers. Maybe some people like sharing and talking about their skills and creations. Maybe people who only interact with their immediate colleagues in their current place of work are prone to developing bad habits.

Maybe this is not the typical case but all I know is that the best people I have worked with have maintained a group of friends/peers/colleagues in the software industry outside the walls of their place of work.

nahname• 13 years ago

Passionate people enjoy what they do and are better at it than non-passionate people. Seems obvious.

fanshen• 13 years ago

I recently did my first job search (about to graduate). I emailed one company cold and this resulted in a useful informational interview. I tried it a few other places and got no reply.

Note: I was not emailing a specific developer, but instead the main company contact info. Like you, I asked to talk to determine fit.

I got much better results when I already knew someone at the company.

robszumski• 13 years ago

I recently had a interested party connect with me via LinkedIn specifically because I has just left the company and he wanted to know why. Our professions didn't overlap too much but he was very interested in what I was doing now and what I had to say about the company. Struck me as a very smart tactic.

Ask HN: Do you cold-contact peers when considering working at a company?

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