Nicotine as a useful stimulant

http://www.gwern.net/Nicotine

by gwern • 13 years ago

155 130 13 years ago

whalesalad• 13 years ago

I can't imagine life without stimulants. I hope to move off into the woods one day and live a completely natural lifestyle for a while. Reset myself. No caffeine, no nicotine, no amphetamines. Just me, a dog, and a nice ranch property in the middle of nowhere.

Meanwhile, nicotine is a staple of my day-to-day. I quit smoking a long time ago, now I stick to Swedish snus and vaping. For a period I was chewing gum too. Definitely lots of ways to get it without smoking.

michaelwww5• 13 years ago

Snus is an awesome alternative to smoking. I've tried chew and nicotine lozenges, but snus is a happy medium. I've come up with a way to get off nicotine, which I do from time to time: dissolve about 8 nicotine lozenges in a bottle of water. Take a sip when craving hits. The craving goes away immediately. ymmv.

glibgil• 13 years ago

So, you get off nicotine by going on nicotine?

racecar789• 13 years ago

Thunder Extra Strong is a snus with no flavor and a high nicotine count.

Just passing it along since I tried 5-10 brands before settling on Thunder. To each their own.

derleth• 13 years ago

Snus is an awesome alternative to smoking.

Doesn't it cause oral cancer?

cnp3• 13 years ago

In an attempt to quit smoking I just discovered the vaporization method and WOW -- I'm so impressed. Its actually enjoyable in the way that smoking is enjoyable, and the stimulant kick is very real.

agumonkey3• 13 years ago

vaporized liquid nicotine ? Where do you get it ? in Europe e-cigarettes are under scrutiny because the sold product is not guaranteed to be clean of toxic substances, otherwise it would be pretty great I guess.

michaelwww5• 13 years ago

I overdosed myself severely when I first tried an e-cigarette. There's more nicotine per puff than a cigarette, at least in the brand I tried.

toddrew• 13 years ago

I started vaping this year. I love it. I've got a usb passthrough that just plugs in and I can sit in a co-working space and smoke and work. It gets some funny looks, but also starts some fun conversations.

seanlinehan• 13 years ago

I also quit smoking by using a vaporizer. So did my brother, my mother, my step-father, and my friends. My cigarette consumption plummeted after I started using it... but it wasn't even a tiny struggle. There are some heavy-weights lobbying against the products, which is unfortunate because my vaporizer was the only thing that actually helped me quit smoking.

[shameless plug]

I had so much success with the product that I actually started a company selling them. I found that the market was much too complicated for somebody like my parents to enter, so a partner and I focused in on one great product for new users. You can check it out... If anybody has any feedback / constructive criticism / questions, please reach out to me at sean [at] vapesecret.com

http://www.vapesecret.com

JPKab• 13 years ago

Ok, so can you, or someone, explain "Swedish snus" to me? I'm curious, because whenever I have put any kind of American "dip" tobacco product in my mouth, my salivary glands go fucking nuclear and I end up drooling or spitting like a redneck.

Does Swedish snus made in some way so that this doesn't happen? If so, I need to try it!

a8da6b0c91d• 13 years ago

Snus is still a mess that involves spitting. I prefer nasal snuff, to the extent I use anything. It can be totally discrete, even to someone right next to you as you take a pinch. You just have to blow and wipe your nose about 20 minutes after a pinch. Alternatively, a small pinch of certain finely ground and dry nasal snuff can be taken in the mouth like snus, but it still doesn't involve spitting. Swish it around your mouth for a couple minutes and then swallow.

Lost_BiomedE• 13 years ago

Snus does not require spitting. It is steam cured instead of fire cured and has a good safety profile.

Note: If you want a good experience, import it. Do not try Camel snus. Also, you may want to try packets first instead of loose.

yesbabyyes• 13 years ago

Strong snus, like Ettan and Grov, will probably make your mouth run, especially as a beginner (even in packets). Less strong, a little bit smaller packets (I think General is the most popular in Sweden) are better, and in the last decade or so, even dryer packeted snus has become popular, often sold with a suffix like White or Dry.

hcarvalhoalves2• 13 years ago

I can't imagine life without stimulants. I hope to move off into the woods one day and live a completely natural lifestyle for a while.

Funny way to put it, because human beings have been smoking something for as long as they've walked on earth, as evidenced by older cultures, so it's arguable what would be "natural".

Zuider2• 13 years ago

Most of the world's population spends their entire waking day stoned on something more powerful than nicotine, whether it is coca leaves, betel nut, khat, or some other indigenous herb. It just seems a given that wherever you find people, you will find drugs.

phaer• 13 years ago

According to wikipedia, Snus is illegal in the european union with "special excemptions" for sweden and norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus

lionhearted• 13 years ago

Ramping off caffeine is actually quite simple. You go to the pharmacy and get 100mg or 50mg caffeine pills, and start taking 10% to 20% less caffeine per day than you were taking beforehand.

Do a little research beforehand, but the average cup of coffee has ~100mg caffeine. So 5x50mg caffeine pills for a week or two, and gradually decrease, and it becomes very easy to quit. I've done this successfully (and also chosen actively to get back on caffeine for performance/training reasons, which once lapsed, I then used the method again successfully).

nazgulnarsil• 13 years ago

I vaped for a while on the strength of this analysis, but eventually concluded that stimulants weren't worth the blood pressure increase. I still vape zero nicotine ejuice though. That stuff is delicious.

webosb• 13 years ago

i'm vaping and lowering my doses of nicotine while i go. hopefully, i can get to zero nicotine.

fallinghawks• 13 years ago

Doing the same here. It also helps that my non-nicotine juice tastes much better than the one with nicotine. Good luck!

ludoo2• 13 years ago

I did the same, then switched to snus and stopped vaping. I thought the important thing was having something my hand, and some smoke to blow, then I understood that I only care about nicotine. :)

revelation2• 13 years ago

Your body will rapidly develop tolerance for the blood pressure increase caused by many stimulants (caffeine, nicotine). You will likely see no more effect after just a few days.

pa5tabear• 13 years ago

What do you mean by no more effect? No more blood pressure increase? Or no more cognitive stimulant effect?

tunap• 13 years ago

Once demonization has eradicated tobacco from the public's grasp, these benefits may be sold back in pill form for an even greater margin of profit. Yay Capitalism!

jerf• 13 years ago

You should read the article. He prices out nicotene for you. It's... not going to make anyone wildly rich the way cigarettes did.

bitcrusher• 13 years ago

Unless 'someone' gets smart to the system and starts adding tax to the quit smoking products, of course.

I think we're seeing some of this now, with the greater attention being paid to e-cig products.

Apocryphon• 13 years ago

Gengineered marijuana plants that produce nicotine... somehow.

yetanotherphd• 13 years ago

More like tobacco is rightly demonized for its harmful effects on health, but nicotine, which does not have these effects, is not. The market responds to informed consumers by providing nicotine without the tobacco.

I would chalk this this one up as a case of capitalism working [for the general good [this clarification shouldn't be necessary but it always is]].

gwern10• 13 years ago

The market responds to informed consumers by providing nicotine without the tobacco.

Well, once tobacco has been socially stigmatized and huge taxes placed on it, anyway. I'm not sure nicotine gum/patches/e-cigs existed before the War on Smoking. I expect you could buy purified nicotine oil from chemical suppliers, but it'd be up to you to figure out how to use it (and do so without killing yourself).

lolwutf4• 13 years ago

From anecdotal experience, nicotine has quite a similar effect to amphetamine (therapeutic dosing.. i.e. Adderall).

Nicotine, in low doses, by itself (i.e. outside of tobacco, which contains MAOIs, which potentiate nicotine's effects), is not terribly addictive. I'll occasionally supplement it for a few days at a time, then stop. I would caution anyone supplementing nicotine NEVER to smoke tobacco, at the same time.

Patches are the most healthy way to consume nicotine. Nicotine + gums = all kinds of bad stuff. Still, there's some slight carcinogenic risk with long-term use of the stuff, so it's not a miracle drug. :(

Throwadev• 13 years ago

What kind of bad stuff with gum? After reading gwern i started trying out gum and it's nice. I have no cravings and never have to or want to consume more than a single gum per day. Most of the time it's a quarter or half a chiclet + headphones and a clean desk to get me into a 2-4 hour coding session.

I'm worried about if it will damage my oral health or anything though. Will it?

lolwutf4• 13 years ago

You can do a couple pieces of day, with no problem, IME. Chew it up well and let it sit in your lip for optimal absorption.

That said, when nicotine is exposed to oral tissues, it may be promoting:

-oral cancer

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20338106

-gingivitis

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20337880

-receding gums

Source: don't have a specific study handy, but this high-level review mentions it, and other issues: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933534/

Keep in mind, these are all slight chances. If you do this regularly for years, it may be of concern. Every once in a while? No biggie.

Patch will get you around all of these, specific issues at least. There's still that whole 'carcinogenic, overall' thing.

dajohnson89• 13 years ago

There is a LOT of anecdotal evidence that chewing nicotine gum causes hair loss [0].

I chewed nicotine gum for 3 months, 3 pieces a day. My hair is too short to notice any loss, but I was quite aware if just an overall deterioration of my mouth. Eroding gums, thinning enamel, and yellowing teeth color. Yuck.

I really suggest electronic cigs over gum...

0: http://www.askapatient.com/mobile/viewrating.asp?drug=18612&...

rmrfrmrf• 13 years ago

Hence why I think the "ADHD Overdiagnosis Epidemic" in the USA is bullshit -- the fact of the matter is that 45% of the USA smoked in the 1950s, a number which has since been cut in half [1]. Considering the hypothesis that intoxication is a basic human need, it stands to reason that, given the stigmatization and taxation of tobacco, that we're now just relying on amphetamine rather than nicotine. I'd suggest that ADHD has been engrained in American life for at least a century, the difference being that, up until 10-20 years ago, we had a readily-accessible, socially-acceptable medication for it.

[1] http://www.gallup.com/poll/109048/us-smoking-rate-still-comi...

[2] Siegel, Ronald K (2005). Intoxication: The Universal Drive for Mind-Altering Substances. Park Street Press, Rochester, Vermont. ISBN 1-59477-069-7.

chimeracoder• 13 years ago

A friend of mine is a psychiatrist who specializes in treating ADHD. She told me about a conference she went to recently, where someone presented an interesting paper.

Apparently, there was an amazing study done relatively recently (last five years), in which they demonstrated that, in mice, exposure to nicotine during pregnancy results in higher rates of ADHD in the grandchildren (passed down through the female offspring exposed to nicotine in utero, not the males).

I can't find the study at the moment, but the findings would be monumental if they also apply to humans too.

lolwutf4• 13 years ago

I'm very sad this article doesn't mention the most interesting quality of nicotine: depending on how it is administered, it will act either as a sedative, or a stimulant!

There's not (m)any other molecules out there that do this, so it's quite a novel research target!

kvcrawford• 13 years ago

Which ROA causes it to act as a sedative? That's very curious, indeed!

lolwutf4• 13 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Psychoactive_effects

3rd paragaph

gwern10• 13 years ago

That is a pretty curious aspect of nicotine (and one I mentioned in my personal experiences when I was wondering if the reason the e-cig water was not helping was due to taking too much nicotine), but it isn't mentioned because I didn't see how it was relevant to any of the questions discussed.

dgdnt3• 13 years ago

Nicotine is being explored to replace stimulants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotinic_agonist#Drug_developm...

The development of nicotinic acetylcholine receptor agonists began in the early 1990s after the discovery of nicotine’s positive effects on animal memory.[2][3] The development of nicotinic acetylcholine receptor agonists has come a long way since then. The nicotinic acetylcholine receptor agonist are gaining increasing attention as drug candidates for multiple central nervous system disorders such as Alzheimer's disease, schizophrenia, attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and nicotine addiction.[24][25]

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130036

<i>Interestingly enough, some pharmaceutical companies (like Targacept) have caught onto this phenomenon, and they have already started manufacturing nicotinic drugs (agonists of nicotinic receptors), which are to be marketed for the treatment of ADHD. They are trying to make nictoine more "safe"...

These so called nicotinic drugs, such as AZD3480 (Ispronicline), are still in the clinical trial phase. In fact, the drug is in phase trial II, which means that it has passed the so-called primary "safety test", and there were no alarming adverse reactions. See: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00683462.

These nicotinic drugs are a refreshing new technology, because they indirectly act on dopamine through the release of another neurotransmitter, acetylcholine. These drugs are much unlike classic stimulants, which act upon the dopamine reward pathway directly, increasing abuse potential.

I decided to put the last question to the test. For the past week, I weaned myself of the Ritalin, and I bought transdermal nicotine patches. Bear in mind that I have never smoked a cigarette in my life, and none of my immediate family members smoke! So, what I did was highly risky as nicotine has been dubbed as a "highly addictive" drug. ...

On these so-called "dangerous" 5 mg patches, not only was I able to focus better and sleep better, but my mood was much more stable. Also, the "come-down" is nothing like that which I experienced with psychostimulants (more specifically, Ritalin). Now, I am not saying that we should all start smoking. But, I'm saying that we should keep an open mind and to keep our therapeutic options open.</i>

ludoo2• 13 years ago

20+ years smoker, about 30 cigarettes a day mostly hand-rolled. I quit 6 months ago and despite vaping turned into a kind of zombie until I discovered snus.

Then I understood what I had missed all this time: I love nicotine, and the surprising thing is that without all the toxic stuff in cigarettes it's not as addictive as it's made out to be.

I often go hours without a portion of snus and completely forget about it, while I could not stay away from cigarettes for more than a couple of hours without getting restless.

spion5• 13 years ago

"Effects of nicotine on perceptual speed" [1] is behind a paywall, and I can't tell from the abstract whether the results also apply to non-smokers.

However, the abstract of another of the articles, "Effects of Cigarette Smoking on Performance in a Simulated Driving Task" [2] states that the effect was only measured on minimally abstinent smokers.

Are any of the other studies measuring the beneficial effects of nicotine on non-users (and non-users only)?

My anecdotal experience when I quit (the first 2 times, couple of months each) as well as the first time I smoked was that the first couple of cigarettes had absolutely no effects, whatsoever.

So the last time I quit (about 2 years ago), I just kept at it. After about 3 months any previously observable decline in performance and ability to focus was gone. Most of it was gone in the first 3 weeks actually, with only slight remains of increased irritability persisting for 2 more months.

That makes me suspect that nicotine only has a beneficial effects on nicotine users (instead, lack of nicotine is what causes the opposite of the measured effect for users).

But even if such benefits exist, I feel that the they aren't worth it. The inability to function without nicotine, the constant drive to get more - it feels like slavery, and I'll never go back to that.

And I cringe when I read things like:

    There is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by     
    almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation 
    capability

Because in my experience its completely, totally wrong. I could clearly separate 2 phases that I went through when I quit:

1. the nicotine desire phase - First 48 hours. Incredibly, painfully hard. Strong desire to place a sticker on me or just light a cigarette and make it all go away. This is what kept me a user for 7 years and helped me come up with various excuses just to continue.

2. The learning-to-live phase: A hard but somewhat joyful period where I would recognize the habitual desire to light up a cigarette associated with various activities.

The second phase had 3 different stages for every smoking habit I have developed. For example, at first I couldn't imagine drinking coffee without a cigarette.

Then after the first time it felt like I'm getting no joy from the coffee. The second time it felt okay, but slightly incomplete. Finally, the third time it was all good.

The awesome part was realizing that I just learned how to drink coffee without cigarettes. And it was super-easy: just do it 3 times. Joy! Repeat with all other problematic activities.

This happened with all activities that I associated with smoking. Removing the habits felt easy. Getting off the nicotine felt almost impossible. Luckily, the necessary time for the second one was much shorter (I still had tiny activity-induced cravings couple of months after I quit)

[1] http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/9/1990.abstract

[2] http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/119229

gwern10• 13 years ago

"Effects of nicotine on perceptual speed" [1] is behind a paywall, and I can't tell from the abstract whether the results also apply to non-smokers.

I need to apologize a little bit here; I've been checking my article and it seems I inserted the wrong link for that citation. The one I actually wanted is http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02245346 'Smoking and Raven IQ', Stough et al 1994. Also paywalled, but I'm working on getting them. (My university access doesn't cover SpringerLink so I need to ask other people to get them for me.)

Because in my experience its completely, totally wrong. I could clearly separate 2 phases that I went through when I quit:

Let me point out that your subsequent lines indicate you are talking about your addiction to tobacco, not to nicotine.

spion5• 13 years ago

Let me point out that your subsequent lines indicate you are talking about your addiction to tobacco, not to nicotine

Yeah, but only for the second phase of the quit. I went half-way through the exact same first phase in a previous quit, by using patches for 2 weeks first.

eikenberry• 13 years ago

What in tobacco is addictive other than nicotine?

mistercow4• 13 years ago

The good news is that nicotine's addictiveness is drastically reduced when it isn't combined with an MAOI. If e-cigs really take hold in the market, and aren't just a fad, we may see the end of smoking as a highly addictive habit (except for among MAOI users, of course).

3pt14159• 13 years ago

I found quitting smoking very easy. I felt weird for the first day or two and then I just wasn't a smoker. I thought it would be hard based on what everyone told me, but it wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be.

jtheory2• 13 years ago

From what I've read plus anecdotal evidence (people I know with radically different experiences quitting smoking), there's a large genetic component to how addicted you get, and how easy it is to quit.

Unfortunately most people have an extremely hard time (and most of the attempts to quit that I've observed have involved a lot of misery followed by a return to smoking).

abecedarius2• 13 years ago

Anyone have any notion of the size of the IQ boost suggested by the link to a paywalled paper?

tokenadult• 13 years ago

So far the IQ boost from any known drug intervention is very modest. All of the possible environmental interventions on IQ combined appear, from longitudinal studies of IQ in national populations, to have a fairly strong effect, but many of those environmental influences are still very poorly understood. A recent review article,

Nisbett, R. E., Aronson, J., Blair, C., Dickens, W., Flynn, J., Halpern, D. F., & Turkheimer, E. (2012). Intelligence: new findings and theoretical developments. American Psychologist, 67(2), 130.

http://people.virginia.edu/~ent3c/papers2/Articles%20for%20O...

by a group of all-star IQ researchers who on the whole are optimistic about environmental interventions, lays out some of the current research and shows what is still unknown.

gwern10• 13 years ago

So far the IQ boost from any known drug intervention is very modest.

Absolutely; if you look at some of my other pages, you can see for yourself how little I think of most claims to improve intelligence...

I take this unreplicated study as being more evidence for the stimulating effect of nicotine rather than any genuine peak intelligence boost, in the same way that monetary payment can increase peoples' scores on IQ tests - you wouldn't say 'the promise of money makes people smarter', but rather, 'the promise of money "enables" people to work harder'.

FWIW, I think the Nisbett review is drastically optimistic in some areas (I've criticized it on HN in the past, although I can't quite seem to find a link to my old comment in Google), so the true picture for IQ interventions is worse.

abecedarius2• 13 years ago

Thank you, that looks worth a read.

benjohnson• 13 years ago

My anecdote: My IQ stays the same, but my motivation and concentration is elevated with Nicotine (gum) - leading to a higher score.

127• 13 years ago

FWIW my biggest intelligence boosts are as follows: sleep, exercise, proper diet, no depression.

winningaddict• 13 years ago

Ah stimulants, a modern application of game theory with our health put on the line.

jcromartie• 13 years ago

I don't know, but I think cigar and pipe smoking are a perfectly valid way to get nicotine on your own terms while avoiding addiction. I have never seen someone cowering in the rain cradling a big cigar to get their fix.

RyJones• 13 years ago

Cigar smoker here. Cigars take between 45 minutes and an hour and a half to get through; a little long for a fix. You can get smaller cigars, but they're mostly cigarettes sold as cigars to escape the higher taxes.

cubix• 13 years ago

My dad ends up doing this pretty often. He "quits" cigarettes for a while, but eventually starts smoking cigars, surreptitiously at first, with increasing frequency until he reverts to regular cigarette smoking again.

jlgreco• 13 years ago

I think the trick is just moderation. I go through about a single pack of cigarettes a year, typically only smoking during stressful or intense periods, typically over periods of time shorter than weekends. Seems to work out fine.

jonnathanson• 13 years ago

Cigar smoker here, and back when I had more time on my hands, I went through a pretty heavy cigar phase. Cigars are impractical as addictive agents, because they're very expensive and take a long time to consume. But they exhibit at least some mildly to moderately addictive properties. Back in grad school I found myself moving up the ladder from the occasional cigar a week, to the cigar every day, to the two to three cigars a day. I wouldn't say I needed them, or that the urge to smoke clawed at me every waking second. But I'd build my entire morning routine around the first cigar, my afternoon and evenings around the second and third, and so on. A day without a cigar left me pretty restless and unfocused. If that's not addiction, per se, it was something resembling dependence.

Cigarettes are more insidious tobacco delivery vehicles, but cigars aren't exactly health supplements.

Nicotine supplementation, absent the tobacco, is an interesting subject worth further study and consideration. On its own, given Gwern's and other research, it seems no more dangerous or addictive than caffeine (for example).

mistercow4• 13 years ago

I used to smoke Black and Milds exclusively, and you would have found me out in the rain smoking mine. I was completely addicted to them. And of course there's no pharmacological reason to think that cigars or pipes would be less addictive than any other form of tobacco. The reason that you don't see people smoking them as often is that they aren't the social norm for smoking in public.

If you want a way to take in nicotine with lower risk of addiction, get an e-cig.

udp• 13 years ago

Well, you're not really supposed to take the cigar smoke back into your lungs, so maybe that has something to do with it.

jnbiche• 13 years ago

This is exactly how I quit a pack-a-day cigarette habit in my 20s: smoking a pipe. It allowed me to get some nicotine in, but was such a pain to pack/light that I eventually gave it up -- by that time I was sufficiently de-habituated from cigarettes that I never went back to smoking, except for a few times when I got really drunk (another habit I eventually gave up).

solnyshok• 13 years ago

cigar smoker here. As others described, they are mildly addictive, but quite different from cigarettes. I smoke for nearly 17 years, started from having too much free time in a foreign country on my first expat assignment. During this time I moved from occasional smoke once a month, to a regular smoke once a week. There is however, one obvious trend that I noticed, whenever I have too much free time and cigars nearby, I would smoke one. As in, 1-2 cigars a day during vacations. On the other hand, if I am out of cigars, I forget about them for weeks and do just fine.

ivanbrussik• 13 years ago

I LOVE NICOTINE!!!!

spion5• 13 years ago

To the OP: curious to know, are you a user? Have you been off nicotine longer than 2 months in the past year?

gwern10• 13 years ago

To the OP: curious to know, are you a user?

Yes. Reading the literature, I found no reason to not try out nicotine. I discuss my personal experiences in http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#nicotine

Have you been off nicotine longer than 2 months in the past year?

Why would I do that if I find it useful, as I do? But I have been keeping a log of nicotine use since June (to use it as a covariate in other self-experiments), which indicates I easily skip it for long periods: 03, 07 June 2013: 4mg gum; 22 June 2013: 2mg gum; 24 June 2013: 2mg gum; 1 July: 2mg gum; 9 July, 2mg gum; 20 July, 2mg gum; 20 August, 3mg gum; 5, 6 September, 1mg gum; 20 Sept, 1mg gum.

More generally, I received my current batch of nicotine gum (96x4mg) back on 28 December 2011, or 640 days ago; I still have 2 pieces left over, so that means I've been using the nicotine at an average rate of (94 * 4) / 640 = 0.6mg/day. (This includes the August-November 2012 period where I was taking gum every other day for a dual n-back experiment.)

spion5• 13 years ago

Ah, so basically, about 20 times less than an average smoker (compared to your calculated average), and about 4-5 times less for the peak days, if I'm calculating correctly?

That is, assuming a 1-pack-a-day smoker of a 0.6mg / cigarette brand ...

Okay, I guess - I wish you the best of luck, and your usage seems well controlled. Though, the withdrawal I went through when I quit - I wouldn't wish it to my worst enemy. So I hope you don't mind if I say "be careful" (even though I can already see that you are :)

noir_lord• 13 years ago

Interesting, but there is no way in hell I'd risk nicotine addiction again, I quit smoking 4 years ago (it's hard but not as hard as many would have you believe).

Caffeine though you can prise from my cold dead mug.

maxander3• 13 years ago

If nicotine is supposedly "not highly addictive," what heretofore obscure, hideous compounds are lurking in cigarettes that accounts for their legendary addictiveness?

MAOIs? True, they give withdrawal symptoms. But despite being a widely used pharmaceutical, to my knowledge no MAOI-only drug has seen anything resembling the abuse patterns of tobacco.

The hand-wavy "other compounds" that the article mentions and then doesn't describe? Anyone know what those would be?

So, sure- maybe nicotine isn't very addictive, yet it makes an otherwise non-addictive drug dreadfully addictive. Or perhaps the scientific truth of the matter, whatever it is, is simply complicated enough that someone who really wants one particular thing to be true can twist a bit of evidence around to support his case. Either way- stick to coffee.

gwern10• 13 years ago

The hand-wavy "other compounds" that the article mentions and then doesn't describe? Anyone know what those would be?

Excuse me? I went to considerable pains to give the primary source citations & jailbreak the PDFs.

maxander3• 13 years ago

Its possible I've missed something? I don't have time to read all the papers you cite, but from titles/abstracts they all appear to be talking about the effects of MAOIs. If there are separate substances in play I've somehow managed to read your article and completely miss any mention of them.

jey• 13 years ago

Good question. I had assumed that he was referring to a synergistic effect of MAOIs and Nicotine causing increased addictive potential, but I really have no idea whether monoamine oxidase is involved in the metabolization of nicotine.

tarikjn• 13 years ago

I believe what is described is that nicotine is a potent agent for habit-forming, so you don't get as much addicted to the nicotine itself as the habit you have formed while taking nicotine, ie. smoking. The article describe utilizing this process to one's advantage by taking safe forms of nicotine while forming desired habits or (i.e working, learning etc.).

sliverstorm• 13 years ago

you don't get as much addicted to the nicotine itself as the habit you have formed while taking nicotine

Supported by the fact that some smokers use straws and carrots to help quit.

smosher3• 13 years ago

I've never heard someone talk about MAOIs in isolation before. You do realize the point of these is to affect other drugs right?

dllthomas2• 13 years ago

I've mostly heard of them in the context of treatment for depression (in a lower-division biopsych course, not personal experience). My understanding was that they'd be taken on their own, and the Wiki article doesn't obviously disagree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor

"Monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) are chemicals which inhibit the activity of the monoamine oxidase enzyme family. They have a long history of use as medications prescribed for the treatment of depression. They are particularly effective in treating atypical depression."

Though there is admittedly a "citation needed".

shabble• 13 years ago

I believe they can be used in isolation, because by suppressing/slowing the oxidative metabolism of synaptic neurotransmitters, they can be used to compensate for low baseline levels by extending their active lifespan.

The main reason they're not used is that better & more selective releasing agent/reuptake inhibitors exist, and MAOIs have potentially fatal interactions with a huge variety of different substances (including some cheeses, if memory serves)

We're definitely in agreement that MAOIs have a strong effect on the (heightened) levels of synaptic neurotransmitters (released by some nicotinic upstream signalling), giving a synergistic effect.

dgdnt3• 13 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranylcypromine (brand name Parnate) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenelzine (brand name Nardil)

MAOIs are the last resort anti-depressants. There are two left on the US and they are extremely highly-regarded in effectiveness. They're more effective than the typical SSRIs of today but they are sadly not as prescribed today due to over-blown fears of interactions. It's a case of newer not always being better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranylcypromine

They work by preventing the breakdown of dopamine, serotonin, etc. therefore increasing levels in your brain.

In fact the gold standard for anti-anxiety is an MAOI, Nardil, which has additional inhibition leading to increased levels of GABA (the target of alcohol/benzodiazepines.)

In fact two medications in my daily mix with Nardil are on that list and it's such a pain dealing with ignorant pharmacists that see a warning on my their screen and refuse to call my doctor to confirm their combined safety, even though he's been practicing for 50 years (really.)

I urge you to read the various reports from real users confirming the safety even with the supposedly not safe to mix.

The problem is that most of the recommendations in the list were added before precise measuring of tyramine levels in foods was developed and list is one big CYA. To make matters worse is that nobody has made a significant effort to do real testing to define safe levels so most users are left to responsible trial and error.

I.E. read this about pepperoni, debunking the conventional "wisdom":

BACKGROUND: Continuous refinement of the monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) diet has resulted in much reduced and simplified recommendations that attempt to balance safety and practicality. In the spirit of evidence-based practice, dietary restrictions should be based on carefully documented case reports and valid tyramine analyses. Residual concerns have focused on combination foods such as pizza and a variety of soy products. We determined the tyramine content of pizzas and a variety of soy products in order to refine dietary recommendations for use with MAOIs. METHOD: High-pressure liquid chromatography analysis of tyramine content was performed on a variety of pizzas, soy sauces, and other soybean products. A tyramine level of 6 mg or less was considered safe. RESULTS: No significant tyramine levels were found in any of the pizzas, including those with double pepperoni and double cheese. Marked variability was found in soy products, including clinically significant tyramine levels in tofu when stored for a week and high tyramine content in one of the soy sauces. CONCLUSION: Pizzas from large chain commercial outlets are safe for consumption with MAOIs. However, caution must be exercised if ordering pizzas from smaller outlets or gourmet pizzas known to contain aged cheeses. All soybean products should be avoided, especially soy sauce and tofu. Individualized counseling and continuous surveillance of compliance are still essential.

Bonus:

Tranylcypromine enhancement of nicotine self-administration.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17412372

The monoamine oxidase inhibitor phenelzine enhances the discriminative stimulus effect of nicotine in rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17912044

dgdnt3• 13 years ago

Apologies for my poor grammar, I am unable to edit to fix.

mistercow4• 13 years ago

It's not just MAOIs. It's the combination of nicotine and an MAOI that is so addictive (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091305703...).

plasmacaster• 13 years ago

I've read about supposed benefits of nicotine a while ago and got myself an electronic cigarette. I have never smoked before.

Not sure if there are any mental benefits. I feel a bit more relaxed right after vaping. No ill effects whatsoever. I made a few week to month long breaks to see if there would be any addiction - there was none. I was able to stop at any time.

It's sort of like snacking for me, but without the calories. Definitely contributed to my weight loss.

solox3• 13 years ago

So did I. As a non-smoker, I got an "e-cig" simply because it contains nicotine and no tar.

Two years of off-and-on "smoking" has revealed that this cigarette replacement causes no addiction whatsoever.

jmcgough2• 13 years ago

Same. I'm very against smoking, but nicotine itself is likely not carcinogenic (though I'm concerned about heart disease - the studies I've read aren't conclusive but suggest it's a potential danger). I'll actually forget about it for days at a time, and don't refill it frequently, so I'm not too concerned about addiction. The mental effects are great for focus and it helps me to eat less.

lnanek2• 13 years ago

I was never into real cigarettes, but it is handy to have an e-cig around to hackathons and other events where you need to stay up and concentrate :)

pizzeys2• 13 years ago

Oh balls, don't let the anti-ecig crowd hear you say that one, please! :D

jdnier• 13 years ago

A great quote from the appendix: "In philosophy, one is taught to not try to prove too much (inviting people to modus tollens your modus ponens), to not do more philosophy than one has to; in programming, you learn to not become an architecture astronaut solving some hugely abstract version of your actual problem - such overreach invites disaster."

overgryphon• 13 years ago

Never smoked, but for people who have smoked and quit- Would short term stimulant usage (eg Adderall) for a few weeks have helped quit smoking?

It seems possible that stimulant medication could prevent common symptoms like weight gain, problems concentrating, and help ignore physical cravings for the first two or three weeks of quitting smoking.

Edit: sorry, somewhat off-topic.

nikcub• 13 years ago

Complete opposite effect, you smoke a lot more on stimulants.

mistercow4• 13 years ago

Nicotine is an excellent salve for ugh fields, if you aren't addicted. Once you're addicted, it's an OK salve.

Nux• 13 years ago

You don't need nicotine under any form, believe me. Just stay away from it.

It's not healthy, it's filthy.

hso9791• 13 years ago

A) Why should I believe you?, and B) Is this some metaphorical or religious uncleanliness you mean when you say filthy?

These issues fixed, you might have presented coherent argument.

peteretep• 13 years ago

This triggered some research, which linked me back to:

http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#nicotine

Where you seem to suggest that actually you experienced no measurable benefit from nicotine, but the placebo affect was strong. Have I read that correctly?

namlem• 13 years ago

I'm a non-smoker who bought an e-cigarette to try to use it as a stimulant. It's pretty meh. The buzz doesn't later very long, significantly shorter than caffeine, which itself is pretty lame. If you want to really boost performance amphetamines are your best bet by a lot.

Nicotine as a useful stimulant

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