FAA to lift mobile shut-down rule

http://www.zdnet.com/faa-to-lift-mobile-shut-down-rule-7000021045/?s_cid=e550&ttag=e550

by mumbi • 13 years ago

135 138 13 years ago

long overdue, everytime i fly i probably see 50% of the people NOT turning off their phones. even more painful is seeing the flight attendant try to actually explain why people need to shut off their devices

jlgreco5• 13 years ago

Yeah, I understand the logic behind "The FCC/FAA cannot test every single device for airplane use" but as far as I can tell so many people ignore this rule that if it really were a problem, airplanes would be dropping out of the sky like bricks every day. Many, if not most, people ignore the rule, so it probably isn't a big deal in reality.

ihsw2• 13 years ago

The issue is when shit hits the fan then will you be able to depend on communications with air traffic control? Other people will be reaching for their phones at the same time, surely radio congestion is a real concern.

Or it used to be.

aroch• 13 years ago

The restrictions do have two benefits though as far as I'm aware: 1) your phone's battery doesn't drain as it's out of range and attempts to poll a tower every few sounds to no avail; and 2) if it does have service, it prevents the fairly large overhead associated with transferring between towers, decreasing network strain.

jadeddrag2• 13 years ago

I'm probably not the only one who does not mind putting the phone in "airplane mode" (which I do anyway), but it is the stupid "must be powered all the way off" that bugs the hell out of me. I just want to listen to my music!

wyager• 13 years ago

Good. These rules are ridiculous and not founded in reality. No consumer communication device is going to cause harmful interference with avionics or communications equipment, especially in modern planes with double redundancy and heavy shielding. These rules, just like many others, are rooted in nothing more than tradition and superstition.

melling• 13 years ago

Well, playing Words with Friends is still not allowed. Of course, that becomes next to impossible to prevent. I'm not sure why the transmitters need to be disable because in reality many won't be.

snom38020• 13 years ago

They want as many transmitters as possible off to reduce the _chance_ of interference. With in-flight Wifi and picocells it will be possible to have everyone connected without having lots of cell phones trying to connect to base stations far away using high power.

mistercow2• 13 years ago

The thing that gets me about these rules is what an insane threat to national security it would be if they were actually necessary. If anyone really thought that mobile devices could significantly interfere with instruments on an airplane, they should 1) raise hell over fixing our obviously broken planes, and 2) demand that we put some effort into actually making sure that people are turning their cell phones off (for instance, by actually checking, rather than asking politely).

snom38020• 13 years ago

It's a matter of trade-offs of convenience vs "better safe than sorry". It's not a binary either-or decision. Just like with lithium batteries, which can still cause nasty fires. Yet they aren't banned because if they were, it would be a huge inconvenience.

gonehome• 13 years ago

This looks like it will change little. You'll still not be able to listen to music on your device (even if the music is local to the drive) during takeoff and landing.

The only change is that you can leave your phone in airplane mode instead of having to power it down.

I don't know anybody that actually listened to the flight attendants. Most people just put their phones in airplane mode anyway.

So basically nothing actually changes. It would be nice to be able to listen to my music without having to hide my headphones so I don't get yelled at.

At least on Virgin they don't bother you because they just assume you're using their entertainment system (which I'd imagine generates more interference then whatever your little device does). I guess on their system you have to watch advertising though - makes it worth it to them.

piyush_soni2• 13 years ago

Huh. Why would you not be able to listen to music in airplane mode? I always do it on my phone, as I have them on my SD card. Now with the new rule when you will be able to keep the phones in airplane mode while take off and landing, I should be able to listen to music without interruption.

eru• 13 years ago

They want your attention in case something goes wrong.

xachen• 13 years ago

Taxi, takeoff and landing are the most critical parts of a flight. If something goes wrong and you can't hear instructions, chaos etc because your distracted with your music then you are a danger to yourself and your seatmates around you.

bsytko• 13 years ago

Agreed. Landing and takeoff are the most stressful parts of the flight. I need to be jamming out during those times to maintain a level of calmness.

And it's not like if something goes wrong I won't notice. They'll probably be a big thud or other loud noise to get my attention.

seiji• 13 years ago

In the past year, I've been on three flights where a passenger's phone started ringing during takeoff. Nobody seemed alarmed.

They've been getting more aggressive about saying: "Turn off your cell phones. Off means off. Not just airplane mode. Off."

Nobody listens. I certainly don't listen. My SOP is airplane mode for iPhone and iPad with MacBook Pro just sleeping.

icedchai• 13 years ago

The last flight I was on, there was a guy taking pics with his phone during take off. Nobody noticed.

jrnichols• 13 years ago

This is my experience as well, although on Royal Jordanian and Emirates, they actually have in flight cell phone service. Few people bothered to have their phones away, much less off, and nothing happened. And these are on Boeing & Airbus aircraft, the very same ones that United & Delta are using.

I hope this rule does change. There's simply no reason to yell at people to turn cell phones off anymore.

epistasis• 13 years ago

the NYTimes article disagrees with you:

The guidelines are expected to allow reading e-books or other publications, listening to podcasts, and watching videos, ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/technology/faa-nears-new-r...

doomlaser• 13 years ago

Wait a minute, really? Planes with onboard radio stations in the armrests broadcast during takeoff and landing, and I've used headphones with those. How would using your own advice be any different?

WalterSear3• 13 years ago

I think those are wired.

Narkov• 13 years ago

They are different because you can't hear emergency announcements. The in-seat audio is able to cut across to an announcement if necessary.

lann• 13 years ago

The armrest stations are interrupted for deafening announcements over the PA system.

cheald5• 13 years ago

Good. If they were actually that dangerous, we wouldn't be allowed to carry them on board.

Shutting down cell radios makes sense; as I understand it, a bunch of cellphones moving at a couple hundred miles per hour can do some nasty things to cell towers, but it drives me absolutely insane that flight attendants gripe at me about turning off my Kindle. I usually just turn the backlight off.

mattzito• 13 years ago

I find that having a nondescript black case for my kindle makes it look enough like a book or journal that flight attendants have plausible deniability to claim that it didn't look like an electronic device.

Call it the e-book equivalent to brown bagging a beer on the street.

ShabbyDoo• 13 years ago

I fly twice a week and have found that the actual rule enforced by flight attendants seems to be, "Don't force me to see it."

WalterSear3• 13 years ago

You solution is to fly business or first class. IME, they just 'suggest' that you turn things off there.

alexeisadeski32• 13 years ago

Alec Baldwin disagrees.

MichaelGG3• 13 years ago

It really, really, depends on the FAs and flight. Sometimes I'll openly have my tablet running, watching a movie or whatever, other times I've had an FA insist I actually power off a Kindle (hold down the switch).

IvyMike• 13 years ago

I think almost every plane in the US these days has a bunch of phones with their radios fully active. People simply ignore the instructions. I'd love to see the raw signal and position data from cell towers near the airport.

cmsimike• 13 years ago

but it drives me absolutely insane that flight attendants gripe at me about turning off my Kindle

I agree BUT you've got to remember that there are a ton of different devices in the world. You can't expect every flight attendant to know what the difference (visually) is between an iPhone and an iPod Touch is, let alone how to set every device to their equivalent "airplane mode."

Of all the rules I disagree with, this is the one that I understand the most.

If they were actually that dangerous, we wouldn't be allowed to carry them on board.

My understanding (from a pilot friend of mine) that it is really about radio interference with the pilots' radios. Recall the older Edge (for ATT, whatever else for other providers) devices being put up near speakers and that sound made[0]. The rules are still there mainly to protect the pilots' ears from that noise and possibly dropping communication, though I don't know how possible that is. Yes, that isn't common place anymore now that radio frequencies have moved on but how is a flight attendant going to know the difference between an Edge device that causes interference and some 4G device that doesn't?

[0] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0O1_FYzbjw

wpietri2• 13 years ago

Yeah, I feel the same way. If the FCC thinks it's fine, great. Otherwise, I can read a magazine for a few minutes.

The case that I suspect worries them isn't the well-manufactured, brand-new device on a shiny new plane. It's the older, banged-to-hell, third-rate Chinese knockoff against the oldest avionics in service. The question they have to answer isn't, "Should it be fine?" but "Can we prove it will never cause a glitch at the worst possible moment on the most problematic flight of the 10,000,000 we have each year?"

I'm astounded at the arrogance of random people who are sure they know the answer to that based on zero data and a strong sense of entitlement.

kpao• 13 years ago

My understanding (from a pilot friend of mine) that it is really about radio interference with the pilots' radios

If it was the case, this would be a complaint we hear from pilots every day. Think of how many people simply forget to turn off their cell phones...

dchichkov4• 13 years ago

As far as I understand it [studied electronics engineering and a private pilot] the main problem is with faulty devices. Although it is very unlikely, a faulty device potentially can act as nasty source of interference at _any_ frequency. Effectively blocking this frequency.

And although it is not a problem for a pilot in normal conditions, it could be a factor that complicates things for a pilot. If the visibility on a takeoff/landing is bad, there is traffic congestion, air traffic control is stretched to the limit you'd definitely don't want a faulty cell phone suddenly jamming an ILS approach system ;)

snom38020• 13 years ago

This argument is false. It's a matter of reducing the possibility of interference, not eliminating it (which you can't do). Lithium batteries can and have caused in flight fires, would you start claiming that they physically can't, just because we are still allowed to bring them onboard?

wfunction7• 13 years ago

Lithium batteries are the perfect example. We still bring them on board despite their dangers. Also see http://xkcd.com/651/

omegant• 13 years ago

As a commercial pilot I must say that cell phones and other electronics, have an influence in navigation and comunications. It has evolved over time though, the past generation airliners (like B737-200 and MD80) that didn't have GPS or laser inertial navigation, used a magnetic sensor(it detects the earth magnetic fields and gives the data to the navigation instruments) that was easily disturbed by the first generation of cellphones. It could change your heading indication up to 40 degrees. The worst cases where due to the pilot's mobile. Also cd players and the first portable nintendos used to have a mesurable effect on those planes. Modern airliners are better isolated and shielded, also modern electronics transmit with less watts and are better designed. It has become a smaller problem defenitely. For example the problem with comunications is not a big one, it can be a bit annoying (like when you hear your car radio and the cell phone starts receiving a call), but I haven't hear of any mayor comunication failure or trouble caused by that. The only problem remaining is that the most sensible fase of flight is a low visibility approach with the autopilot engaged. In this mode the airplane is using highly accurate radio signals from the ground station, and radio altimeter readings to guide itself till landing. The frecuencies are very different, but when you have 100 people trying to con ect their cellphones to call home and say that they are landing (while at 200 knots). The phones have to try very hard to connect to the ground antennas. This is not a problem if everything is working properly. But if a cable or a computer is in bad conditions(remember that avionics suffer from physical stress that is not usual to ground equipment: humity, vibration, shocks), that may cause bad signals that may triger a system failure (this is the best case as this way you may go around and try again safely), or just modify signals enough to degrade de autopilot behaviour but not trigger an alarm. Although rare, this has happened and it's been the reason the prohibition has been kept all this time. I suppose that the stadistical and technical study of this faults have led to understanding that this cases are more unusual than they used to be. Also it's a fact that even if you ask people to shut down their electronics, there is always a part of the passengers that simply don't know how to do it (older people), have theirs at the checked luggage, forgot it on with the laptop(the rest of us), or simply ignore the crew and hide the phone. So effectively enforcing the prohibition was impossible. I still recommend to set everything in flight mode at least for take off and landing, as we the pilots usually do (please don't tell anyone!), that way you'll also save battery.

jrockway4• 13 years ago

But if a cable or a computer is in bad conditions ... that may cause bad signals that may triger a system failure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_bolt_effect

JulianMorrison• 13 years ago

Seems to me the answer is to put a cellphone "tower" in the plane so the phones all connect to that at low power and stay connected to one place. Meanwhile the plane itself can relay to ground via more sophisticated means designed for flight.

wfunction7• 13 years ago

Uh, I refuse to believe for a single second that any sane engineer would design an airplane that could be brought down by a cell phone in "bad conditions".

It's like building a house that can't stand rain.

unclebucknasty2• 13 years ago

Yeah, it's a little annoying, but it really drives you absolutely insane? You really can't just turn it off for a few minutes without whining, "but, it's a kinnnnndle"?

I don't think flight attendants should be required to identify and evaluate each device and its capabilities. They are trying to keep planes flying safely and on-time.

Probably like most, I sensed (but didn't know for certain) that the rule might be overkill, but I don't think it's completely unreasonable and I assumed that someone must have seen some degree of at least theoretical risk, then traded that off against passengers reading a magazine or actually talking to a neighbor for a few minutes.

And, in any case, I certainly don't pin it on the flight attendants.

Something about that attitude of being irate or angry about it just comes off as entitled and bratty. Like, "how dare you pry me away from my precious device for a few minutes in the name of public safety".

Makes me think, "Wow. Get over yourself."

lukifer• 13 years ago

To give cheald the benefit of the doubt, the rage may be more due to absurdity and illogic rather than entitlement. It would be like someone denying you an after-dinner mint because it might attract crocodiles.

mcescalante• 13 years ago

I'm glad this is finally happening. I have had a number of very poor experiences with flight attendants just because they think that something I've got is turned on. Most of them demand to see the unplugged end of my earbuds if I'm ever wearing them, or stay to watch me power something down.

fnordfnordfnord5• 13 years ago

Tell them you have unbearable anxiety during takeoff, and are liable to have another panic attack / projectile vomiting / crap yourself incident. If they want us to suffer their lies, they may as well suffer ours.

zippergz• 13 years ago

When I've been lucky enough to fly private, they have not once said a peep about turning off my phone, which I'm sure they would have if they were legitimately concerned about safety. Of course, the service doesn't work at altitude, so I tend to put it in airplane mode anyway just to avoid the battery drain of it constantly searching for a signal.

crusso• 13 years ago

I will be beyond happy to be able to listen to my own music, read off my iPad, and just begin the whole process of ignoring the goings-on in the flight. Travel will be so much better without the useless electronics rules.

Now to get rid of the TSA...

monkey_slap4• 13 years ago

All of these rules usually drive me crazy. I'm a private pilot and I'll take up friends and coworkers for fun all the time. The most common question before we take off is "Do I need to turn off my phone?" which I usually reply with "I leave mine on for backup GPS". I do understand the need to stow away items to prevent injuries if anything were to suddenly happen during takeoff and landing, but telling people to turn off their devices because, and I've heard this before, "they will interfere with the navigation systems" is just false.

snom38020• 13 years ago

As a private pilot I've had to turn off GSM on tablets and phones to avoid interference in the headset. I still try to keep one cell phone on in case of an emergency.

There has been a few reported incidents with laptops etc causing interference with nav systems. While the rule may be too strict, I understand the "better safe than sorry" approach.

fnordfnordfnord5• 13 years ago

There has been a few reported incidents with laptops etc causing interference with nav systems.

Do you have a source for that?

monkey_slap4• 13 years ago

What headset? I'm curious because I've never even heard of that happening.

dchichkov4• 13 years ago

All these rules are there for a reason. I completely agree with you that it is perfectly all right to leave electronics on when you are giving rides. Even in the very unlikely chance that a device that your friend has is faulty, and by some wild chance it self-excited at an entirely wrong frequency and started transmitting wildly at CTAF, so what... It is a perfect day, and you'll land no problem.

But airline pilots are routinely flying IMC. They do want their radio aids working. And there is just no knowing what faulty device of some shady manufacturing one of these five hundred passengers is using. Who knows. May as well " interfere with the navigation systems" at a wrong moment.

ubernostrum2• 13 years ago

And there is just no knowing what faulty device of some shady manufacturing one of these five hundred passengers is using.

Except that faulty device is already on the plane, and the lowest estimate seems to be there's about a 1-in-3 chance it's powered on already, despite regulations saying it needs to be off.

As many people are at pains to point out, if there were sufficient risk to justify action, then we would not be needing to have a debate and point to anecdotes (of which there are some in this discussion) from commercial pilots who once experienced an equipment problem and said "well, I heard maybe a cell phone could cause that". We would know beyond question that something's up from the corresponding number of serious incidents.

monkey_slap4• 13 years ago

Planes crash due to their own mechanical failures far, far more often. If we were to use that logic, than flying itself is already unsafe.

coin• 13 years ago

If your phone is using the 800 MHz band (such as Verizon CDMA), then you are breaking FCC rules.

"Federal Communications Commission rules prohibit the use of cellular phones using the 800 MHz frequency and other wireless devices on airborne aircraft. The ban was put in place because of potential interference to wireless networks on the ground."

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/wireless-devices-airplanes

nly• 13 years ago

Strange. I thought the reason for shutting off your phone was so you were more likely to pay attention to wtf is going on. You know, for safety procedures etc.

crdoconnor• 13 years ago

They never bother you if you're reading the inflight magazine though.

rossjudson2• 13 years ago

This is a bad decision by the FAA. Do you know the most dangerous phase of flight? It's takeoff. The next most dangerous phase? Landing. It's a good idea to have everyone put their devices away for the first and last five minutes of the flight -- just in case quick action is required by passengers who, without headphone cords and loud entertainment, stand a better chance of following instructions.

A drunken asshole on a plane is irritating. A cell-wielding drunken asshole on a plane is unbearable.

wfunction7• 13 years ago

Isn't this mainly an FCC restriction? [1]

I thought the main idea was to prevent phones from constantly jumping between towers... does the FAA have much to do with this in reality?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phones_on_aircraft

fnordfnordfnord5• 13 years ago

I thought

See, it is one of the problems caused when authorities lie to people.

the main idea was to prevent phones from constantly jumping between towers.

Cell tower interference is the only reason that's ever been offered that even passes the giggle test, but even the FCC now is telling the FAA to ease up on the silly rules.

darkarmani• 13 years ago

I thought airplane mode was used for the entire flight. Does anyone turn their iphone completely off for takeoff?? or their macbook for that matter?

obiefernandez• 13 years ago

News like this makes me think there's a sliver of hope for America. (Then again the article makes it sound like they'll still want you to put your phone into airplane mode.)

Filligree2• 13 years ago

Switching it to airplane mode makes sense, though.

zw123456• 13 years ago

Not long ago, there was a piece on the local news about a big lightning storm and how a plane was hit by lightning and they had a guy on from the FAA saying how it is nothing to worry about and that planes are designed such that a lightning strike would not harm it. So, if I am to understanding this correctly... A commercial airliner is in danger from my phone with a 3.7V battery but a million volt lightning strike will not harm anything? hmmmm, that does not add up, sorry. About time they drop this obviously ridiculous rule. Now please, the shoes off at the airport, come on.

auctiontheory• 13 years ago

Does putting my iPhone into "Airplane Mode" automagically disable the NSA bugging processes?

zmk_• 13 years ago

Wow, this is so much more prohibitive than what we have in Europe. I can not remember being asked to switch my phone off it had an airplane mode.

FAA to lift mobile shut-down rule

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