Moot: Full House

http://www.4chan.org/news?all#114

by ivarious • 13 years ago

254 142 13 years ago

burgerz• 13 years ago

I congratulate moot for the job. 4chan's change over the years has been minimal. The biggest change was probably the captcha - initially it was a temporary fix to flooding and spam at the time, but it stayed since there doesn't seem to be an alternative. Those that use 4chan enough for the captcha to get annoying, the $20 yearly pass was a great way to get around it and to allow us to support the site as well.

Also the introduction of some of those boards was simply to get shitposts out of other boards (e.g. /soc/ was created to cleanup /b/ and /r9k/). Worked great.

However, I have to disagree with the sage thing. While originally the term was used to not bump a thread (implying that your own post was not worthy of bumping a thread back to the front page), in the last five years (and before that, to some extent) it HAS been used as a way to 'down vote' a thread.

zalzane2• 13 years ago

it HAS been used as a way to 'down vote' a thread.

Sage as a method of downvoting a thread is insane and encourages even more shitposting. 4chan actually does have a "karma" that manifests in the way of replies to your posts/threads. So when you reply to a thread using sage as a downvote, you encourage the poster by giving him replies. Using sage is just a flag to the other guy that his post is irritating enough for you to sage it.

This used to be a huge problem when it was popular to post troll pony threads on macho boards like /v/, /sp/, or /fit/. What would happen is there would be 10 replies in the first minute, all sages, calling the OP a retard and reminding everyone to sage and report the thread. These replies would just feed him, to which he would reply to the sages and egg people on even more - to which he would receive even more replies.

The only acceptable analogue to "downvoting" on 4chan is to not reply to the thread. Nothing can dissuade a shitposter more than having put some effort into writing a good baity OP post, and not getting a single reply before the janitors delete it.

ImplyingTheGame• 13 years ago

implying /v/ is macho

jlgreco• 13 years ago

Even without sage, there are other popular ways to kill threads including "this thread is now about X" posts that race to the max image limit. (Where X is usually spiderman for some reason...)

intslack• 13 years ago

it HAS been used as a way to 'down vote' a thread.

If you're determined enough to sage bomb the thread to image limit, especially now that there's a captcha, sorta, but not really.

Also cheers to moot. I've noticed the improvement in moderation first hand recently, even getting banned myself, whereas previously that board felt like it had zero mods.

prawn• 13 years ago

Can someone explain how the sage thing works as a downvote? I'm aware of 4chan, its style and run a forum (with anonymous posting too) myself, but I'm not familiar with any karma/scoring 4chan might have. Keen to stay aware of options to keep my forum on track.

pyre3• 13 years ago

When you add a comment to a thread, it bumps the thread to the top of the list for that board. If you add 'sage' into the email (?) field, it will add the comment without bumping the thread. Each thread has an image post limit that will max out the thread and prevent the thread from bumping anymore (letting it slowly fall down the listing and eventually die).

So, using sage as a way to 'downvote' is just a way of adding towards the thread limit without bumping the thread. It's a round-about way to do it though (vs. direct downvoting).

"sage" originates from 2chan (aka Futaba Channel), which was the inspiration for 4chan. 'sage' is short for sageru.

http://www.4chan.org/faq#sage

http://www.eudict.com/?lang=japeng&word=sageru

ivarious5• 13 years ago

When you sage your post (adding "sage" into your e-mail field), your name will turn blue. This is very visible especilly in a barebone software like Yotsuba is.

hrkristian2• 13 years ago

Threads rely on posts/images to get bumped to the front page. Not bumping a thread is therefore a passive downvote because other threads are being bumped while the saged thread isn't. Technically it isn't a downvote though, there is an actual way to do so (called 'hiding the thread').

asdasf4• 13 years ago

in the last five years (and before that, to some extent) it HAS been used as a way to 'down vote' a thread.

Right, and he just fixed that problem.

redcap2• 13 years ago

What's the story? 4chan.org is blocked for me.

zalzane2• 13 years ago

http://bsamuels.net/upload/paste0051

redcap2• 13 years ago

Thank you.

Mithrandir• 13 years ago

http://archive.is/OpHXV

nether• 13 years ago

https://www.4chan.org/news?all#114 might work for you.

nness• 13 years ago

Ha, well there's a URL that's never going to get through the corporate firewall...

lotyrin• 13 years ago

Strangely enough, my corp allows 4chan.org requests. It seems fairly sensitive otherwise.

anotheraccount7• 13 years ago

Flagged and logged. They'll discuss it at your next performance review ;)

ivarious5• 13 years ago

The decision of making sage invisible is interesting to discuss. Like with the quote function (or greentexting), many of 4chan's basic functions have been used for more than intended function. This creates things that sometimes are not what you want to get, but should you take away the new functions from your users?

krisgee• 13 years ago

Yes, because sage isn't a new function it's one that was taken from 2chan and like the post says sage never was and never will be a downvote. It's just a way to reply without bumping the thread.

parliament32• 13 years ago

...which, based on how the boards work, is essentially a downvote.

Each thread can have x posts before new posts no longer bump it. If you sage, you are using up that thread's available space (1/x worth) without bumping. Although this doesn't "downvote" in the sense that the thread is penalized/lowered, it "downvotes" because it takes up thread space with no benefit to the thread. Not to mention, sageing is a way to express your dissatisfaction with the thread, which I think was always the point (rather than trying to actually hurt the thread).

aspensmonster2• 13 years ago

From: https://www.4chan.org/bans

Wat? I thought /b/ was pretty much anything goes. How times change.

fnordfnordfnord3• 13 years ago

Random arbitrary bans are not unprecedented on /b/

krapp7• 13 years ago

It's not really random or arbitrary if the rule is "no ponies."

oakwhiz• 13 years ago

/b/ was almost entirely ponies at one point - an odd example of too much signal and not enough noise. To solve this, moot set up /mlp/, a containment board designed to redirect the rapid influx of pony images that was spamming every board (which was disturbing many of the regular on-topic posters.) Hence the "no ponies are allowed outside of /mlp/" rule.

crystaln• 13 years ago

A valid argument against determinism in the universe.

How could the Big Bang have predetermined a pony ban on 4chan?

L4mppu• 13 years ago

/b/ on topic Pick one.

mhurron2• 13 years ago

/b/ was almost entirely ponies at one point

And it was a better place, then they let the /b/tards have it back.

fnordfnordfnord3• 13 years ago

The public ban log displays a sample of recent bans, which we hope will give users insight into what content is being removed, and why.

This might be interesting.

aspensmonster2• 13 years ago

Yeah. Sounds like a scoreboard.

ivarious5• 13 years ago

Some people are already trying to get into the scoreboard.

xerophtye• 13 years ago

Yep all the /b/ros are gonna see it that way

austenallred• 13 years ago

Tried it - do not recommend clicking on the links.

I mean I guess that was stuff that was banned from 4chan... I don't know what I was expecting

tomjakubowski• 13 years ago

Something Awful has had a public banlist (the Leper's Colon [0]) and a per-user rap sheet for years. They do a good job of shaming rule-breakers and people whose posts are generally deemed to be poor in quality. But on 4chan, I imagine making the list will be some kind of badge of honor.

[0] http://forums.somethingawful.com/banlist.php

uchi3• 13 years ago

A badge of honor many will strive for.

Related, one of the funniest bans I've ever seen.

http://puu.sh/4uXij.jpg

moot4• 13 years ago

I saw this and said "Why the fuck is this on Hacker News?" out loud.

tomasien• 13 years ago

Same, but I'm ok with it. I haven't been on 4chan in years, but I still love it and everything that it built/made in internet culture (well - maybe not EVERYTHING). It's good that the community would be sure to vote up the very most important posts IRT it, because I wouldn't find them any other way.

angersock2• 13 years ago

Because moot runs one of the largest, most active, and longest-lived anonymous social networks and discussion boards on the 'net?

nostromo• 13 years ago

Did you notice who wrote that comment?

nemo1618• 13 years ago

I suspect there's more of a userbase overlap than you'd think.

marshray4• 13 years ago

I've heard a lot of stuff about 4chan, and this sure sounds important. But this post is literally the first thing I've ever read on the site.

Should I even try to understand this?

meowface2• 13 years ago

You're replying to the owner of 4chan right now, if you're unaware.

britta• 13 years ago

Why not! This post is about moderating a very large and very complex forum, which can be interesting to anyone who participates in forums, or anyone interested in social software and online communities.

I'll attempt to explain some of the jargon.

The part about "proud to call ourselves /v/irgins and /k/ommandos" refers to the nicknames that people on various boards (topic-specific forums within 4chan) have invented to call themselves, as a kind of in-joke. For example, "/v/" is shorthand for the video games board (because its URL is http://boards.4chan.org/v/), so people on the board extend that and call themselves "/v/irgins" (because that's much more amusing than "/v/ideogamers").

When he says "sage is now invisible", "sage" means the feature that lets you write a comment that doesn't bump that thread to the top of the board. People use "sage" in order to write comments like "this post is terrible" without promoting that post. See http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sage or http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sage for more explanation.

"/q/ will be retired and replaced" - this was a board that moot had set up for talking about 4chan itself (asking him questions, providing feedback, etc).

"Post timers" prevent you from writing tons of comments in rapid sequence, which is usually spammy/abusive behavior.

lmm2• 13 years ago

The post is interesting but it's fundamentally about 4chan culture (and I'd say there have been more important changes in the past). I don't think it will make sense without being at least a little familiar with that culture - you'd be better off visiting the actual boards and getting a feel for the place first.

meowface2• 13 years ago

Well, you are a startup founder, and arguably a household name on big swaths of the internet nowadays. It certainly fits the criteria.

djillionsmix• 13 years ago

He should talk to those guys who wrote about advertising their food delivery service on pornsites

icpmacdo• 13 years ago

Do you recommend that people go to 4chan?

moot4• 13 years ago

Definitely. Be sure to check out /d/!

jerryjo• 13 years ago

i think if your asks that in is not the more easy questioned to say... could be if your to not think so it bad but possible.

simonebrunozzi• 13 years ago

Hello moot, nice to see you here :)

jedberg• 13 years ago

Because you're a hacker like the rest of us. :)

jsonne• 13 years ago

Jedberg responding to a comment from Moot on Hackernews? I think we may have just hit inception levels here.

anologwintermut• 13 years ago

Who let you out of Higgins' trunk?

eob• 13 years ago

Hey, moot!

10% of people posting is actually exactly what you should expect in a thriving community. Several studies of web communities have confirmed the "90:9:1" ratio of Lurkers:Contributors:Creators. Lurkers just read. Contributors will respond. Creators will initiate.

See the wikipedia article at [1] but there are also (I think) several old USENET studies and corporate email list studies which confirm this that I didn't notice in the footnotes of wikipedia.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_(Internet_culture)

fivre• 13 years ago

"How to grow your site from 3.2m to 22.5m users when you can't talk about your site: the rules 1 and 2 strategy"

brittonrt• 13 years ago

Hi Chris, do you still keep up with your good friend DAVE!? :)

joeblau• 13 years ago

Things have changed around here in the last two years.

mh-• 13 years ago

don't worry moot, it's of above-average relevance compared to recent months' activity.

perlpimp• 13 years ago

Because #4chat is the culture of them interwebs and is the foundation likes of craigslist.

Camillo• 13 years ago

lol internet

Daiz2• 13 years ago

Then how about adjusting the cooldowns back to how they were? 4chan is still supposed to be a collection of imageboards, and the new cooldowns make image posting extremely time-consuming with large amounts of images (which can be very much on-topic and valued content). Shitposters are not suddenly going to stop shitposting just because they have to wait longer between posts, so ultimately this just seems to make life for legitimate posters worse.

ivarious5• 13 years ago

I'm personally very afraid that he will include that as a "feature" for the Passes.

interject2• 13 years ago

where are my subs Daiz?

uchi3• 13 years ago

I advise you to rethink the 60 second posting rate for /a/, it's making dumping chapters impossible.

lcasela2• 13 years ago

Hey moot!

<3 from /mu/!

interject2• 13 years ago

I heard that trips and dubs are cancelled.

Is this true m00t?

Sir_Cmpwn2• 13 years ago

10 years, god damn. I'm always impressed that 4chan has remained essentially the same for so many years and has been able to have a huge following the whole time. I don't think any other website has ever had so much sustained success.

chrisbridgett• 13 years ago

Reddit?

uchi3• 13 years ago

Reddit's userbase grew very quickly after Digg drastically changed, aka 'collapsed', Reddit for a while also engaged in sockpuppeting posts to generate fake traffic to create the illusion of a userbase before it really took off.

4chan, in comparison, has always been organic from day 1.

lmm2• 13 years ago

Wasn't founded until 2005?

You could make a case for slashdot or wikipedia or google, but IMO all have changed substantially in the last decade.

spiek• 13 years ago

Arguably, SomethingAwful (founded in 1999).

Sir_Cmpwn2• 13 years ago

I wouldn't say SA has had sustained success the whole time. They're really dropping off in recent years.

induscreep• 13 years ago

kebab plz

cstigler• 13 years ago

The ban list (http://www.4chan.org/bans) is hilarious.

A highlight (besides all the "ponies outside of /mlp/" ones):

"I cant get banned, im 17 and my birthday is tomorrow. Suck it m00t." -- Ban, 90 days, "Underage User"

lnanek2• 13 years ago

Interesting 4chan and Hacker News are going different ways. They decided to make bans more transparent. Hacker News recently made it impossible to reply to dead posts, so you can't even tell dead users they are dead any more.

jaredsohn• 13 years ago

Hacker News recently made it impossible to reply to dead posts, so you can't even tell dead users they are dead any more.

I don't think this behavior changed recently (if ever). People would frequently reply elsewhere in the thread to warn people that they are dead.

krapp7• 13 years ago

Well, one site allows anonymous posting and practices open banning, while the other practices hellbanning and has the "karma" system which weights a users' posts as a function of their alignment with the norms of the community. They have completely different approaches to curating user identity and controlling conversation which I think are mutually exclusive, though both appear to be effective in their own way.

It would be interesting to see a post or an article comparing and contrasting the different methodologies between the two sites.

asdasf4• 13 years ago

I don't think the HN way is effective at all. Virtually every hellbanned user I've ever seen doesn't appear to have done anything wrong. So they keep posting, having no idea they broke any rules, until they realize they were banned. Then they make a new account and continue on, not changing their behavior in any way, as they have no idea what caused the ban in the first place.

Shadow bans were created originally to deal with trolls. People deliberately posting garbage. It is counter productive to use shadow bans on contributing people who happened to break an unspoken rule like "don't criticize pg".

dreamfactory2• 13 years ago

Which is why I worry about the government moves we are seeing against online anonymity (looks to me like the ground is slowly being prepared to make it illegal).

jokoon• 13 years ago

Does that mean 4chan is a victim of its success ?

I'll always view 4chan as a website who refused to grow up and expand, because it is afraid to since it might lose its very special flavor by doing so.

It seems anonymity is quite hard to implement and make us of properly.

agoandanon• 13 years ago

4chan lost its very special flavor about 7 years ago, when it stopped being possible to follow threads without noko'ing them.

davexunit• 13 years ago

Posting in a moot thread.

<3 from /g/

lcasela2• 13 years ago

bans list
Global 2 - Underage User

Why not ban the shitposters and not the underage users.

chadwickthebold• 13 years ago

Nice try, HN. You almost got me to visit 4chan while at work! You rascals ;)

krapp7• 13 years ago

Why are you on HN at work... >_>

Moot: Full House

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