Man and Superman

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2013/09/09/130909crat_atlarge_gladwell

by npalli • 13 years ago

66 75 13 years ago

PeterisP2• 13 years ago

Sports competitions are about finding the best athlete, not purely the best training regimen - and genes are part of the definition of who that athlete is.

On the other hand, an interesting question would be about improved homo sapiens - we will start to improve ourselves as a species at some point (simply because there are so many imperfect things to improve), and at that point 'unupgraded' athletes probably won't be competitive at all.

bayesianhorse3• 13 years ago

People overestimate the role of genetic advantages in individuals.

Usually these advantages can't be quantified, they can hardly be predicted. It takes a lot of math to do that for a population of athletes... and then the top performer gets injured.

timje1• 13 years ago

The article mentions some clear examples of people who have genetic advantages. Eero Mäntyrantas' advantage isn't difficult to quantify ( sixty-five per cent more red blood cells than the normal adult male ), so I'm not sure it can be dismissed so easily..

chongli2• 13 years ago

People overestimate the role of genetic advantages in individuals.

No, they don't. In fact, we're so aware of it that we have an entirely separate category for athletes that lack a Y chromosome.

6d0debc071• 13 years ago

No more so than any other advantage. Some kids get good diets, encouragement, the best teachers. Others get an abusive gym teacher, crap microwaved meals, and parents who don't give a toss about them.

Honestly, looking at the sacrifices some sportspeople have to make in other areas of their lives, I'm not sure I'd even want the advantages if they were offered me. I mean I love martial arts, dancing, swimming, archery... but I'm not sure I'd want to live the sort of life necessary to become the best in the world in any of them. When did sports become about winning, rather than having fun and making friends?

dagw2• 13 years ago

When did sports become about winning

Two thousand years ago or so (maybe more), when prize money and sponsorship deals became a thing.

arethuza• 13 years ago

There was a mention on Radio 4 this morning of how the earnings of the top Roman chariot racer, when converted to modern currency, are much larger than any contemporary athlete - about $15 billion!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7942...

informatimago3• 13 years ago

Not 2000, in antiquity, they only earned some laurel (and it was as common as today). Gold and silver medails started to be given 150 years ago. But now it's finished, they only get worthless gold plated medails, plus e sponsorship deals.

bayesianhorse3• 13 years ago

I guess you can start talking about unfair genetic advantages when you have zero doping...

Also I don't believe it matters at the top level. Even with high heritabilities, the top performers will probably share the same "genetic" advantages.

RodericDay• 13 years ago

Hamilton was eventually caught and was suspended from professional cycling. He became one of the first in his circle to implicate Lance Armstrong, testifying before federal investigators and appearing on “60 Minutes.” He says that he regrets his years of using performance-enhancing drugs. The lies and duplicity became an unbearable burden. His marriage fell apart. He sank into a depression. His book is supposed to serve as his apology. At that task, it fails. Try as he might—and sometimes he doesn’t seem to be trying very hard—Hamilton cannot explain why a sport that has no problem with the voluntary induction of anorexia as a performance-enhancing measure is so upset about athletes infusing themselves with their own blood.

Did you even read the article? Sometimes it feels like when the headline is simple like that people feel like they can skip the thing completely and just post the most concise, one-up retort they can muster.

engrenage• 13 years ago

Some people are just wired to post quick retorts. For the rest of us it takes years of painstaking practice.

laichzeit0• 13 years ago

In the sport of bodybuilding, genetic advantages do make it "unfair" because you are most definitely constrained by it (zipper abs, unaesthetic chest insertions).

But I wouldn't subscribe to this definition of fairness. Fairness seems more about everyone playing by the same set of rules in the sport. If you start including genetics into the rules then it would become unfair, purely by defining it that way.

erkose• 13 years ago

In bodybuilding, you are confusing genetics with steroids.

berntb• 13 years ago

I thought the point of body building was people's genetically based reactions to horrendous amounts of steroids?

But seriously... I am all for sport enhancements from now on. We really need to do lots of tests with RNA based genetic modification. (I predict that Chinese companies will earn fortunes by curing lots of diseases in ten-fifteen years.)

konstantintin2• 13 years ago

you can't get good bone and muscle structure from a needle!

moron4hire6• 13 years ago

Bodybuilding is more of a pageant than a sport.

informatimago3• 13 years ago

Of course. Let's equalize it all. Same genes, same education, same training, same food. 120% pure clones. And then let's who's able to stick his head ahead of the others. We can dig out our beloved Guillotine to see it that no one ends first.</irony mode="dang">

rsheridan6• 13 years ago

If we did equalize everything, then the result would be random luck, which is also unfairm - sort of like how genetics are random luck.

Why don't we just change the rules so everyone wins?

streptomycin4• 13 years ago

The article is about fairness in terms of equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. It's not luck if one identical twin trains more than the other and thus can run faster.

frank_boyd• 13 years ago

Do Genetic Advantages make sport unfair?

Our LIVES are determined by 2 factors:

1. Genetics

2. The environment in which our genetics are applied (social, economic, ecologic, etc.)

Everything in our lives is caused by these two. So no, there is no real free will and nobody is ever treated fairly.

And yes, our entire culture is still medieval with regards to accepting this fact and taking it into account.

collyw• 13 years ago

There wouldn't be the Paralypmics if genetics were fair.

petegrif• 13 years ago

Let's not allow competitive sports other than between people with identical genomes and identical doping regimes. Then we can be confident that in most instances the winner tried hardest. We already have lab standard rats with identical DNA, so it shouldn't be too hard to clone a race of identical competitive athletes.

tokenadult• 13 years ago

People overestimate the effect of genetic advantages in sport. I have two examples.

1) The first example is identical twins Otto and Ewald, who pursued different sports and developed rather different physiques through their sports training.

http://thesameffect.com/check-out-identical-twins-otto-and-e...

(I learned about this case from a local professor who teaches courses in human behavior genetics. He uses this case as an example to correct misunderstandings about genetics.)

2) The second example is that Usain Bolt was once thought to be too tall to be a successful sprinter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00v9bs4/profiles/usain-bolt

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/49040-usain-bolt-why-the-...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/recycled/200...

The simple fact is that athletic training reshapes bodies and makes what seems impossible possible after all.

nedR• 13 years ago

Yes and No depending on the sport.

1. Chess is a game traditionally considered to be strongly co-related to IQ (which is strongly heridetary), but a survey of Grandmasters find that they have generally average IQ. What they did have a lot of, was years of experience and dedication, and also probably very good memories.

2. Basketball is a game where height (which is also strongly heridetary) is very important (the average height of a NBA player is 6' 7"). What are the odds of a man who is 5' 7" becoming a great world-class player? Sure, you could name some guy who fought all odds to rise to the top. But the key word here is odds, and genetics plays a huge role in stacking up the odds.

alan_cx2• 13 years ago

This line falls apart because people will rightly argue over what is a sport. If we then include chess, then why not programming? Or education in general? Education is not competitive, but we can compare and rank.

In the end it all becomes a horrible mess.

In then end I tend to think the genetics must have an impact all over society and culture, and, well, that's that.

alan_cx2• 13 years ago

Perhaps you underestimate how incredibly small the margins are in sport?

newnewnew2• 13 years ago

This Atlantic article suggests that you will never win an Olympic medal in sprinting unless you come from West Africa[1]. This same population is bad at distance running, where Kenyans dominate. There appears to be strong genetic components at work here.

[1] http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/08/the...

moron4hire6• 13 years ago

Distance running is the national sport in Kenya. They spend money on it like the US spends money on football. Of course, not to quite the same degree, but the point is still that it is their national sports focus. If Kenyan's are genetically superior at marathons, then Americans are genetically superior at football.

Countries as large as the US, India, China, etc., have large enough populations that someone in them should match the "genetic ideal" to excel at a certain sport. It is economics that prevents them from doing so. Either their country or culture doesn't value the sport and thus doesn't spend money on it, or they must spend too much time earning to feed themselves that they can't train.

Or that particular person has just never tried the sport. Or there are people who are actually more genetically suited to the particular sport but are discouraged from trying because they hear the current theories on what makes a genetically suitable athlete for that sport.

All we know is that Kenya as a country has the ability to produce excellent marathon runners. To heap all of that on "genetics" is grossly short-sited.

Someone2• 13 years ago

I don't see how either example supports your argument.

If Bolt had pursued cricket, rather than athletics, he would have looked different, too, but that does not mean he isn't a genetically good fit for a sprinter. Now, if you had a pair of identical twins where both trained identically, weren't hit by different strokes of luck/misfortune, but got wildly different physique, that would have been an argument.

As to your second argument, the fact that we do not know what genetic makeup makes a fast sprinter does not imply that there is no genetic makeup that makes a fast sprinter.

stiff• 13 years ago

This is a complicated issue, and I think you are confusing things a bit. Of course, for a gene to take an effect (produce a protein) it has to be activated via a certain chain of chemical reactions that is triggered by environmental conditions. So, sure, genes give widely different results depending on the environment of the organism. In professional competitive sports however we have a large group of people that undergo really similar stimulus. They all train the same discipline, follow similar training regimes, eat really well etc. To think that in such situation genes do not play a huge role is I think naive in the light of what we know about biology. I also don't see what your examples have to do with it, really.

By the way, I find it a bit silly that those articles about genetic differences concentrate on sports so much. Somehow it is much easier for people to swallow that our bodies are shaped by our genes, that it is to accept that a large part of our mental makeup is as well, despite strong scientific evidence for it. For the same reason I think any notion of "fairness" in this context meaningless, genes make every one of us who we are and we have vastly different capabilities concerning all activities, from chess playing, through math problem solving, to sports and entrepreneurship. There is no fairness at all in any human activity.

pygy_• 13 years ago

Genetics set the ceiling.

Try as they might, achondroplastic dwarves will never make it to the NBA, and severe, congenitally retarded people will never have a significant, active contribution to human knowledge.

These are off course extreme examples. There are several ways to be a good basketball player, or to become an intellectual (athleticism is less open to variety).

But for an equal amount of work some people will end up better at some tasks than others.

dmoo• 13 years ago

Listen to David Epstien being interviewed about his book "The Sports Gene" here. http://snd.sc/15G4kbd

Go to 1:00.45 unless you want to here about Gaelic Football etc.

unono4• 13 years ago

The bigger question is - why does sport exist anymore? It comes from a time before movies,books,tv,video games,facebook,pinterest.

Want to stay fit? Do some bodybuilding and some swimming.

Want to focus your mind tactically? Plan your app empire.

Hackers need to find creative ways to destroy the sport industry, just as PG urges us to find creative ways to destroy Hollywood.

recursive3• 13 years ago

A lot of hackers play sports. Why would we try to destroy them?

Sports exist because some people find them fun. If you don't, don't worry. They're purely optional.

unono4• 13 years ago

Sports are one of the few things keeping people cutting the cable tv cord, we as hackers are losing big money from that situation.

Also, sports are one of the few times that people log off from their computers. That's another huge loss in revenue for us hackers.

kazagistar• 13 years ago

Huge budgets at state universities are sunk into the traditional american sport of handegg. Usually it is at a loss, but considered neccessary to draw more students. I don't mind casual sports... its the bullshit of proffesional sports that has a more direct negative inpact via decreased funding for education.

jmduke2• 13 years ago

Because sports are fun..?

informatimago3• 13 years ago

err, no. Sports are not fun. You cannot read or program while running after a ball or even while cycling.

javajosh• 13 years ago

I'm going to assume you mean spectator sports, since there are many well-known reasons for participation sports (including exercise having a strong positive influence on general health, not to mention mental acuity. Did you know that Thomas Jefferson exercised vigorously for 2 hours a day?).

Spectator sports exist because we like to witness competition, and ideally direct, short-term competition between equally matched people. It sets up a fascinating situation - you have two intelligent, capable, experienced players, more or less equally matched, and both have every expectation that they will win a fair fight. Moreover, you agree with both assessments. And yet, they put themselves in a situation where there can only be one winner. Is that not an exciting premise for entertainment?

unono4• 13 years ago

I don't know, I used to be excited by spectator sports in my teen years, but as I got older and more intelligent, I found other spectator sports like politics and business much more fun.

Also, I get more of a kick from movies, even sport movies, in that short-duration time period you mention.

recursive3• 13 years ago

Nothing in life is fair. Why would sports be any different?

brudgers3• 13 years ago

Every example is of an individual sport. If one looks at team sports, the advantage of any one phenotype over others begins to disappear: most tellingly in the world's most popular sport. Top footballers range from Messi to Ronaldo to Cech. "Third lung" is from the Korean penninsula, not 2000 meters.

daleharvey• 13 years ago

I dont disagree with what you are saying, but I think its woth mentioning a lot of people speculate that Messi might get an advantage from his growth deficiency, he has a low center of gravity which can help shifting momentum (not to take anything away from the best player in the world)

brudgers3• 13 years ago

Peter Cech is nearly a foot taller. England international striker Peter Couch is more than a foot. Christiano Ronaldo's stature is in between. The Brazilian great "Garrincha" - aka Anjo de Pernas Tortas - lived with physical deformity.

What they have in common is having enjoyed the opportunity to express their unique abilities and the will to develop them to an elite level. A high red blood cell count won't make a Trinidadian into a world class cross country skier.

chongli2• 13 years ago

You're just cherry-picking. Pick another sport: basketball. Here you'll find a collection of players way above average height. In fact, players who are average height are the extreme outliers in basketball.

brudgers3• 13 years ago

Other than basketball, there are few team sports where stature is a specific advantage (and stature is not a unique genetic characteristic like long Achilles tendons or elevated red blood cells. Thus cricket, rugby, and American football allow for a wide range of physiques at the elite level.

teddyknox• 13 years ago

Relevant XKCD. http://xkcd.com/1173/

kumarski• 13 years ago

Yes.

Read about myostatin. It's a protein that inhibits muscle growth.

jl6• 13 years ago

Exercise and training make sport unfair! Top athletes spend hours and hours at it, every day, often forsaking a normal life and education, sometimes even ruining their bodies in the process. And in doing so they gain a decisive advantage over those who don't spend so long training.

moron4hire6• 13 years ago

"We want sports to be fair and we take elaborate measures to make sure that no one competitor has an advantage over any other."

That is incorrect. If sports were fair, then everyone would win. Sports are specifically not meant to be fair, the entire point of the competition is to reveal which competitor is superior to the others.

The rules that we have against performance enhancing drugs are not about having an advantage over other competitors. We don't have similar rules governing how much weight training a particular athlete may do, or how clean their diet may be. They are about establishing rules by which universal play can be governed. The rules of the game define the game. If you play by a different set of rules, you are playing a different game. If the Tour de France did not have a rule against excessive[1] steroid use, then using steroids would not be cheating. But, the Tour de France with steroids is not the Tour de France, it's a different race entirely.

As a culture, we associate healthful living with physical fitness, and we associate sports accomplishment with physical fitness, therefore we make the huge leap of associating sports accomplishment with healthful living. Even sans-drugs, sports accomplishment doesn't necessarily equal healthful living, especially in the cases of ultra-marathons increasing risk of heart attack and the head trauma of American football increasing the chance of dementia. But we still make that association, so as a culture we tend to value sports that at least pay lip service to maintaining the image of athletes as healthy. Though, it's important to point at that we are inconsistent in that regard: certain performance enhancing drugs are allowed in horse racing, and why shouldn't pain killers be considered performance enhancing, if they allow the athlete to perform better than they would without them?

Our culture shapes the rules we choose for our games, the rules define the game. Cheating is not about "gaining an unfair advantage". It is an unfair advantage for the New York Yankees to have the very best sports doctors in the league, but it is within the rules of the game, therefor it is not cheating. Much of sports strategy is about finding ways to find unconventional play within the rules to give oneself an unfair advantage. Cheating is violating the social contract of the game: "we've come here today to engage in a competition and these are the rules by which we will evaluate the competition".

[1] steroid use rules are often defined in terms of testosterone levels, and the limits are frequently well, well above the levels expected for a healthy male. The rule is thus, "no high testosterone", not actually "no steroids", and it has become standard practice in many sports to try to cycle a steroid usage to peak testosterone levels just below the limit. This takes significant personal experimentation and blood testing to see exactly how the individual body reacts to the drugs and over what time frame. But don't expect the difficulty to mean that people aren't doing it: they are. When you see an athlete testing positive for steroids, it is not a question whether or not they were using steroids or that others were also using it, it's a matter of them not following their regimen properly.

streptomycin4• 13 years ago

If sports were fair, then everyone would win.

The way he's using "fair" is more like "If sports were fair, then the guy who works hardest would win." Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.

moron4hire6• 13 years ago

The concept of greater effort only holds for amateur sports, and only at the low levels of the sport. Professional athletes all (well with the exception of primadonna athletes) work as absolutely hard as they possibly can. If there were a way to work harder to have a better chance victory, they would.

Sports are fair in the sense that everyone has the opportunity to do everything they can within the rules. The rules are numerous enough and vague enough (being that they are written by people in human languages) that there are a variety of interpretations and paths through which one can play. No one person can explore the entire depths of the rulebook.

But it is not fair in the sense that any one particular path through the rulebook will be as effective as any other path.

professorplumb• 13 years ago

Gladwell seems to be making the point that doping in sports is a sort of reverse Harrison Bergeron, with the have-nots needing to "cheat" to get to the same level as the genetically gifted haves.

What happens, though, when the most innately talented (Armstrong, Rodriguez, Barry Bonds) also go in for enhancement?

Xcelerate• 13 years ago

This is a very interesting article. I ran D1 track & field and cross-country a couple of years ago, so I've put a lot of thought into this.

Personally, I think there are huge genetic variations between individuals. I could never possibly train hard/effectively enough to compete with someone like Bekele or Gebrselassie. I also think it is kind of hard for most people (non-athletes) to understand this fact unless they have personally spent years training hard themselves.

That said, these huge genetic variations only set the ceiling of what you are capable of. This is why I think that for the majority of people who participate in sports, it is in fact a very fair endeavor. Even up through the D1 level, I think hard work can more than compensate for most genetic disadvantages. It becomes more difficult as you start to approach world-class, but for 99% of people who are athletes of some form, anyone you would locally compete against can be defeated simply by working harder.

It may not be fair in the sense that I might have to run 80 miles a week vs my competitor running 30 miles a week to achieve the same result, but in the end, all that matters is who has a faster time or a better score. Maybe that bothers some people, but it doesn't bother me.

sliverstorm2• 13 years ago

these huge genetic variations only set the ceiling of what you are capable of.

It also sets how fast you can get there.

jacinda• 13 years ago

This article brings to mind the story of Harrison Bergeron, a short story set in a dystopian future US that attempts to remove all possible sources of inequality.

http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html

Man and Superman

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