Why knowing English is important for every software developer

http://volgarev.me/blog/why-knowing-english-is-important-for-every-software-developer

by volpav • 13 years ago

53 65 13 years ago

bobdvb• 13 years ago

This summer I was talking to my wife's cousin, he wanted to be a programmer but his English was poor and he struggled. That was a long time ago, now he is trying to learn English again and is also learning Java.

hippiefahrzeug• 13 years ago

I just couldn't read past the "who're"...

mintplant• 13 years ago

What's wrong with "who're"?

lutusp3• 13 years ago

It's an uncommon contraction, also at first glance, it reads like another word, one that refers to someone who offers professional sexual services.

volpav4• 13 years ago

If there's a language rule that says you can't combine these two this way, I'd be more than happy to learn about it. English is not my mother language so I apologize for any grammar/spelling mistakes in advance ;-)

eriksank2• 13 years ago

ha :-) It is really a grammatically-correct gotcha ;-) The language construct "who're" looks too much like "whore" and too little like "who are" ;-)

mkevac• 13 years ago

It's not always about rules. Using "who're" can be grammatically correct, but it is bad english.

cynwoody• 13 years ago

It's perfectly valid English. "Who're" is a contraction of "who are"†.

However, for some reason, unlike more common contractions, it is much more common in spoken English than in written.

†http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/who're

jfarmer• 13 years ago

(Native English speaker.)

There's definitely no rule against it. I wouldn't think anything of hearing "who're" everyday conversation. It's rare you see it in writing, though.

What you hear in every day speech is governed more by the mechanics of how your mouth works when you're speaking fluently, honestly. For example, if I were to say, "I would have done it" it most likely would come out sounding like "I'd've done it." Unless your intention was to get the sound across, though, you'd never, ever write that.

comex• 13 years ago

You couldn't read past an awkward English construction in a post about foreigners learning English?

kiba• 13 years ago

Right now, I am trying to fix my spelling and grammar. I do this through feedback with the people who I am chating with on IRC.

I am also building SRS(Spaced repetition systems) decks cataloging grammar mistakes I made, formal grammar rules, as well all the spelling mistakes I made. Right now, I have 25 cards for spelling, and 55 for grammar.

The process of noticing my mistakes, being corrected, and learning about errors is a slow process. It has been going on for a month now. Two of my biggest issues are verb conjugations and plurals.

Edit: Fixed according to feedback

EllaMentry• 13 years ago

English is a tricky language, good on you for attempting to master it - you can write better in English than I can in any other language!

I hope you don't mind me providing some feedback on your writing!

"I am trying to fix my spellings and grammar." - We generally say "spelling and grammar", even though "spellings" is technically correct - when people say they want to improve their spelling, they generally talk about a skill rather than individual spellings.

"It been going on for a month now." - It (has) been going on for a month now - although this could have easily been a typo.

Best wishes on your endeavour.

nthitz• 13 years ago

"It has been going on for a month now." can also be said, using a contraction, as "It's been going on for a month now." which possibly could've easily led to your mistake.

jeena4• 13 years ago

There is one big issue here which I'd like to address. People feel uncomfortable pointing out the mistakes you make, so they never tell you that you're making the same mistake over and over again.

I try to ask people, at least those who I am in contact with a lot, to tell me if they hear when I do a mistake, sadly most of the time they still don't, either because they forget that I asked them to do so or they just don't want to interrupt the normal conversation flow.

The only one who does it quite good is my daughter, Swedish is her native language so she points out what I do wrong when she hears me speaking it. I assume that is because I have been doing the same with her German since she was 2 years old, so it doesn't feel weird to her.

sireat• 13 years ago

"I do this through feedback with the people who I am chating with on IRC" would sound better as: "I do this through feedback with the people whom I am chatting with on IRC"

Alternatively you could just omit the whom altogether but I am less certain about that as I am not a native speaker either.

If you want to know more about who vs whom: http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/who-versu...

lgbr• 13 years ago

Knowing English is important for every startup, let alone every software developer.

1. Outside of English-speaking countries, and particularly in the Schengen area, teams are made up of people whose first language isn't the local language. This means that all internal communication happens in English. Companies that make an effort to operate in English internally have a much, much easier time hiring.

2. Investment often comes from outside the country, particularly from the US, even if your company doesn't operate or sell outside of its home country. Your CEO is going to have to pitch your company in English, and your investors are going to have foreigners perform their due diligence.

jeena4• 13 years ago

About 1. it is so true. When I was the first developer at a startup in Stockholm I told my boss that we should really do all the documentation in English and only talk Swedish on the phone or in personal email. When starting we've only been me (from Germany) and two swedes, my boss and the guy with the money.

The first person we hired (that is besides me) was a Spaniard who didn't speak Swedish. The second was also Spanish and didn't speak Swedish either. The third was from Ukraina, she spoke Swedish quite ok already. And this went on in this direction, Norwegians, Greeks, more Spaniards, etc.

So our decision to go English all the way made hiring much much easier from the beginning and now English became the language half of the staff is communicating in even if you meet them in person.

erhardm• 13 years ago

I definitely agree. I choose to study CS in English because of this. CS is made to be taught in English. I have a friend who was struggling in English and when she applied for a job the interviewer didn't even asked how her English was, all the interviewer questions were in English.

jeena4• 13 years ago

I once had a job interview at Opera (the browser) in Oslo. They said: "Ok we want you to work here, but you _really_ need to improve your English." That was a couple of years ago and it was literally the first time I spoke more then one sentence in English in a conversation outside of School, haha :D Since then I did improve it quite a lot.

neebz2• 13 years ago

I cannot tell you how much I agree with this.

When someone in US says good communication skills are important, they think it's racist.

I am from Pakistan. When I tell colleagues to master English, they think I am still mentally under British imperialism.

There is a huge trove of knowledge on the internet which you can only benefit from if you can read/write English.

It was only after I focused on my English that I was able to stay up to date with latest tech, prevent reinventing the wheels and get remote jobs. I could always feel that English gave me a superior advantage over my colleagues.

volpav4• 13 years ago

Sir, your English is superior comparing to mine!

neebz2• 13 years ago

I would suggest three things (apart from the obvious 'speak in english with others'):

#1 read english books. translate every unknown word from dictionary. the words improve vocabulary; the sentences improves grammar.

#2 watch english movies with english subtitles. this helps greatly in understanding the accent. plus english in movies is a hell lot easier than the one in books.

#3 talk to yourself in english. there was a period in my life where all my thoughts were in english. it makes you comfortable with the new language.

ps: these are just general points - your english is pretty good!

k__2• 13 years ago

You're so right. Here in Germany are many people who don't want to speak english, even if they had it at school for 13 years...

But if I wouldn't speak english, I had to read german news only or couldn't use stackoverflow. 90% of the newest technology would be useless for me, because I couldn't read any documentations or tutorials.

parasight• 13 years ago

There is a difference between reading and speaking English.

While my spoken english isn't very good I'm able to read advanced technical books, manuals, news, and other texts without any problems.

I rarely have the opportunity to speak english. That's the problem.

vacri2• 13 years ago

I vaguely remember Linux Torvalds saying he developed linux in English, and it didn't really occur to him to develop it in Finnish, since English is a better language for dealing with technical issues.

From my (potentially quite flawed) understanding, English, French, and German are all good languages for capturing technical concepts, but English won out in general, simply because it's much bigger - more native speakers (thanks USA) and more widely spread (thanks British colonialism).

hrvbr• 13 years ago

Same in France. It's all about acquiring knowledge that's only available in English. For example, I'm pretty sure that the only database systems documented in French are MySQL and PostgreSQL. Only those who can read English (and are not reluctant to) can use the alternatives.

saraid2162• 13 years ago

I am from Pakistan. When I tell colleagues to master English, they think I am still mentally under British imperialism.

They're not wrong. It's just that you're right.

If they're bothered by the imperialism, then they should get to work translating.

tribaal• 13 years ago

Translating requires to master English in the first place (at least understanding), so I guess it's back to square one...

Dewie• 13 years ago

If I didn't already know English, I wouldn't have been able to learn programming. My curriculum in university has been largely in English.

yason• 13 years ago

That's how I learned English. Not in school but because I was programming and my native language was lagging a couple of decades behind when it came to programming materials and books.

And once you use it for programming, it's logical to use it for asking questions on the Usenet (then) or internet forums (today), and reading papers on interesting subjects, and communicate with your peer programmers or contacts around the world. By then you realize how much you would lose in any translation which makes you want to read any novels written in English too and watch films without subtitles. And eventually you land your first job where you also need to speak English in addition to your native language, and maybe in your second job English is the primary language of the company and you only use your native one for chitchatting locally over a cup of coffee. Roughly, by that time, English has slowly become the second native language in your life.

Intimatik• 13 years ago

As a native Russian speaker i totally agree with you. It always upsets me when people try to stick with their native language all the time. Basically, Russia (like any country) is only a small part of all the world. If you try to avoid speaking/reading in some other languages you're closing most of the possibilities(i mean books, movies, jokes etc.) for yourself.

Hello from Moscow, tovarisch :)

bdcravens• 13 years ago

Ignorant American here, asking of the non-native English speakers:

As most (every?) programming language is "in English", does this impair understanding? (for, in, throw, select, from - all English words whose meanings are more or less in line with the programming concept they define) (Even Ruby, created by a Japanese, is "English")

For those who write/type in languages that require Unicode: since you typically code in ASCII, was this a challenge to learn? (do modern languages support Unicode for things like variable names? I've never seen Hebrew, Chinese, etc code - does anyone have any examples?)

Hellion• 13 years ago

I know that many programming languages (for example C), have long had tokenizers that are non-English. So the language is the same, the words are different.

simias• 13 years ago

I remember in high school they simply used a header file that redefined the keywords of the language in french.

Something like "#define SI if" #define "TANT_QUE while" etc...

captainpiggies2• 13 years ago

On a similar note Excel commands are probably the most infuriating thing since I learned programming fro me because they are all in the regional language in my case German and make no sense to me now. (Example IF is WENN in German)

It drives me nuts.

volpav4• 13 years ago

When I was learning Basic in school, I wasn't really caring/realizing that all of the keywords can actually be translated to Russian, I was just learning them by heart like proper nouns. On the other hand, seeing languages with syntax in Russian (like the scripting language in 1C CRM) always makes me smile ("so ugly, unusual and funny").

barking• 13 years ago

I'm taking this as a very tenous opportunity to quote a scene from The Simpsons where the country bumpkin character says:

"I only speak good ol' american, if it's good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me"

captainpiggies2• 13 years ago

Can't talk for everyone but I always use English in all my code for everything (Variables, Database, Filenames etc.) Because it's a real pain to be consistent otherwise. In the beginning I used to write parts of my code in German because I thought it would be easier to understand but it just made my life harder in the long run because I had to deal with inconsistencies all the time.

And after my initial trouble with some special characters like the French accents (é, è, à etc.) and the German umlauts (ä, ö, ü) I made myself do everything in ASCII.

General rule is: Code and back-end stuff 100% English and only basic ASCII characters. Front-end in UTF-8/LAT1 but when possible avoid placing special chars in code (example ü in HTML only as ü not as ü)

saraid2162• 13 years ago

do modern languages support Unicode for things like variable names?

They do, but there's not much point in taking advantage of it outside of string literals: you're risking someone whose environment isn't set up to handle it coming in and getting barfed over for... what marginal benefit, really?

I googled "unicode variable names" and got this: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Unicode_variable_names

rurounijones• 13 years ago

Ruby 1.9 and 2.0 supports Unicode variables (1.9 requires a special line at the top of the file).

Outside of some cute usage of the Pi symbol (because he could) I haven't seen it used in the wild.

Most Japanese programmers I know / whose code I have seen just use the romaji text for their variables names if they are still thinking in Japanese. (i.e. "tesuto" instead of "test" or "yuza_banngo" for "user_id")

riffraff2• 13 years ago

I remember ruby code circa 2001, there was a lot of it with kanji in in comments, which I found fascinating :)

sampo• 13 years ago

When I learned Basic as a kid (8–9 years old I think), I just learned what the reserved words (rem, print, goto, gosub, return, if then else, etc.) did in the context of my programs: 'goto' literally meant "jump to this line" etc.

It was somewhat later that I realized that my 'goto' is actually derived from English words 'go' and 'to'.

So if goes like this:

- 8 yrs old: learn 'while' in the context of Basic

- 10 yrs old: learn 'while' in the context of English classes at school

- 14(?) yrs old: suddenly realize if you remove the space from then English "go to", it becomes the Basic 'goto', and a-ha, maybe that is not a coincidence.

I actually just right now realized what the 'wend' in the while...wend loop is made of (in the English sense). Hah.

jballanc2• 13 years ago

I've often said that English is to programming as Latin is to medicine. Programmers will be writing "if" statements and "for" loops long after no one uses "if" or "for" in daily conversation.

So it is as important for programmers to understand English as it is for doctors to understand Latin. Of course, most doctors may understand Latin, but they wouldn't be able to converse in Latin. In that sense, English is also the programmer's lingua franca.

That term -- lingua franca -- is an interesting one. In addition to being used as a colloquialism for "a common language" it was also, itself, a language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca . Just as Lingua Franca eventually took on a life (and grammar and vocabulary) of its own, I expect "hacker English" will, over time, do the same. In fact already my (English-speaking) wife thinks that I'm speaking a foreign language half the time when I'm talking with colleagues over Skype.

It's less important to know "English", and much more important to speak, converse, and communicate with other hackers using the lingua franca of the day.

jacobr• 13 years ago

I work in Sweden for an international company, and I have several non-Swedish colleagues in my office.

I never have any problems expressing myself in a work-setting, but as soon as we start talking about every-day things it's more of a challenge. Knowing the name of different kinds of food, house-hold items, literature... you immediately notice a language barrier that is not there when we use the "programmer lingua franca".

loxs2• 13 years ago

Actually English has completely replaced Latin in medical circles as the Ligua Franca. Even the terminology (still based on Latin though) is English.

jballanc2• 13 years ago

English is the Lingua Franca, but the terminology is (last I checked) still heavily Latin. Anterior this, Rostral that...a this-ectomy or a that-otomy...even "heart attack" is properly a Cardiac Infarct, from the Latin "infarctus": stuffed into.

I realize that the days of requiring Latin as part of a medical education are behind us (though not that far behind us), but Latin's footprints are all over the practice of medicine. I think the reason this isn't more obvious is that, in medicine, "Latin" is mostly interchangeable with "jargon" or "terminology" -- it's just "something you learn".

Someone else asked about a programming language like Ruby, which was developed in Japan and whose early users were all Japanese, why does it still use "def", "if", "for", etc. As an English speaker one is tempted to ask, "Why do the Japanese use English", but I would wager that the Japanese would respond, "What English? This is just programming terminology."

ivanhoe• 13 years ago

English is now what Latin used to be in times of Newton or Leibniz. All scientific works back then were written in Latin. Today English plays that role...

clu3• 13 years ago

Cant agree more. These days, I lead and train a dev team here at codersquare in Vietnam. For recruitment, English skills, esp reaing + writing are weighed as much as technical skills. And I provide English lessons on a regular basis as well.

Can't really emphasize enough the importance of English in software. I've had bad experience with devs with weak English skills.

1. Can't google for the right terms so normally finding a solution takes 3 times longer than a dev with proficient E skills. 2. Can't name functions/classes or comment properly thus producing bad qualiry code. 3. Misunderstand requirements sometimes. This one can be very costly. 4. Takes much longer time to study new stuff.

2cents

hershel• 13 years ago

I wonder: isn't that becoming true for all knowledge work?

With the great university courses available in english(MOOC), best web content both formal(research journals) and informal(forums/sites) available in english, And tools usually give error messages in english ,doesn't english give huge advantage in most knwoledge areas ?

spindritf• 13 years ago

ESR also considers it a core skill for a hacker[1].

This whole controversy is completely manufactured.

[1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#skills4

l33tfr4gg3r• 13 years ago

English is not my native language, although my entire schooling and upbringing were in English. One of the resources I found useful in improving the quality of the written word was "The Elements of Style" by William Strunk. The e-book can be found on Bartleby (http://www.bartleby.com/141/) or, if you so prefer, a dead tree version is available on Amazon.

gbog• 13 years ago

I'd like to offer a counter-point here.

I work in a Chinese company with more than 200 Chinese programmers, I'm the only foreigner.

It is obviously important for a software developer to "know English", and all my colleagues do, just as it is important to know how to find your way in a reference book, or how to ask a question to Google and StackOverflow. It is a tool, an important tool, but only a tool.

What I have experienced more than often is that young Chinese people who are proficient in English and spent a lot of time getting their accent out of the way, are not always the best hackers and the most interesting persons. For them English is more than a tool, and they spend less time coding and more time discussing about code.

So to all these pro-English posts here: Yes, it is necessary; but only as a tool, and should not become a finality (unless we are talking about students in linguistics).

Why would I insist on making this point here and there (and get holes in my HN karma)? Because insisting on "fluent spoken English" and "Foreign accent" just makes life more miserable and humiliating to the so many people who open their mind and their life to the world, by the mean of this new Lingua Franca.

Americans know no fear, feel no shame. It's what makes them so strong and optimistic and creative. "Shy american" is an oximoron, but "Shy Chinese" (or Japanese) is a tautology. Let's not forget that other people are made differently.

Why knowing English is important for every software developer

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